Paddlewheels

[Talisman]

Hi,
Given the time and hassle to create a set of paddles for my current build and my want to make more paddle steamers versus my not wanting to make another set of wheels, i have been exploring various manufacturers to establish the feasibility of making them commercially.

Even if i get this project off the ground i need to establish that there is a market for them and of what design.
So in short i would really appreciate any feedback before going much further.
Many thanks

Kim

[djcf]

Hi Kim,
Another thing that may be relevant is the number of floats per wheel...I have a set of 1:48 wheels from Waverley Models, I purchased them when they came on the market several years ago.
These wheels have 9 floats, and I personally feel that is to many, and the wheels look to "busy", or cluttered.
I am going to use the rims as a kind of template and make 7 float versions for my "Marchioness of Lorne" model, maybe try plastic or thinner brass or aluminium sheet, I want my wheels as light as possible.
This is not a criticism of the Wav. Models wheels, just personal preference for 7 floats (as the real ship had) and a lighter wheel.
 
Clark

[Talisman]

Hi Kim,
Another thing that may be relevant is the number of floats per wheel...I have a set of 1:48 wheels from Waverley Models, I purchased them when they came on the market several years ago.
These wheels have 9 floats, and I personally feel that is to many, and the wheels look to "busy", or cluttered.

Yep, I know what you mean. I am thinking of 8 floats per paddle.

I am going to use the rims as a kind of template and make 7 float versions for my "Marchioness of Lorne" model, maybe try plastic or thinner brass or aluminium sheet, I want my wheels as light as possible.
This is not a criticism of the Wav. Models wheels, just personal preference for 7 floats (as the real ship had) and a lighter wheel.

She had rimmed paddles ?? Was going to use my Dad's Jupiter wheels as a template for the rimmed wheels. Probably 0.8 / 1.0mm brass aluminium for them.  
 
Many thanks
Kim

[Eddy Matthews]

Hi Kim,

A few comments based on my own experience, no doubt some will disagree, but these are my feelings on the matter....

Scale - Certainly in the UK, 1:32 or 1:48 are the most popular scales to build at.

Rimless or rimmed - If designed carefully, a rimmed wheel can have the outer rim cut off to produce a rimless wheel, saving the cost of manufacturing both types.

Feathering or none feathering - At model sizes feathering makes little if any noticable difference in performance, but a feathering wheel does look good.... A none feathering wheel with dummy feathering mechanism available as an extra would again save costs and complexity.

Cost - There is a lot of wasted material when producing a paddlewheel, so cost is always going to be an issue. An average screw boat with twin props may cost £30 or £40 for two nice cast props, and your never going to compete with that for two paddlewheels! But you do need to keep costs to a minimum or you'll never sell any!

Just my two-penneth worth, so don't shoot me down in flames!

Regards
Eddy

[Talisman]

Hi Kim,

A few comments based on my own experience, no doubt some will disagree, but these are my feelings on the matter....

All comments appreciated - last thing i need to do is invest money in a dead end product - Have you met my wife  

Scale - Certainly in the UK, 1:32 or 1:48 are the most popular scales to build at.

OK, noted

Rimless or rimmed - If designed carefully, a rimmed wheel can have the outer rim cut off to produce a rimless wheel, saving the cost of manufacturing both types.

True - but my idea is to make paddle wheels that are functional and aesthetically right then i would need to design both styles.
(working on the assumption / brief research that British side wheelers had pretty much similar designs)
This is the question that could give me the edge over all previous suppliers - (or did i miss something??).
If I could produce a set of wheels at an attractive price that were functional and aesthetically correct / pleasing - lightweight and withstand 'pond life' then would people buy them the same way as they buy propellers (to save the hassle or would people (as did) make themself just for the challenge)

Feathering or none feathering - At model sizes feathering makes little if any noticeable difference in performance, but a feathering wheel does look good.... A none feathering wheel with dummy feathering mechanism available as an extra would again save costs and complexity.

Cost - There is a lot of wasted material when producing a paddlewheel, so cost is always going to be an issue. An average screw boat with twin props may cost £30 or £40 for two nice cast props, and your never going to compete with that for two paddlewheels! But you do need to keep costs to a minimum or you'll never sell any!

Just my two-penneth worth, so don't shoot me down in flames!

Regards
Eddy

Eddy i do appreciate your comments - I also understand the cost implications - my recent build if i was to have the components laser cut were in the region of £300 before fixings and at that price i couldn't sell them could i???

[Stuart Badger]

Well - my two pence worth!

Every time I make a set of wheels they are scale ones to suit one particular ship and no other. The present set will have 14 floats - disasterously innefficient, but SCALE. So being absolutely true to scale is number one for me, and if the real vessel had feathering floats then that's what I'd make. BUT, and it's a big but, commercially available wheels, especially for a working model would tempt me.

I have to say that I have often wondered whether it would be possible to produce a set of components in kit form and vary them according to the wheel required. For instance a universal hub to accept 6, 8, 10 or 12 spokes. Spokes of say two patterns in various lengths. Wheel rims of various diameters etc. Then one could vary the contents of the 'kit' to produce many different wheels. Material waste would be minimal because one could use the waste say from the rings to produce spokes or other components.

PVC or ABS would be an ideal material to make the components from and certain components like paddle float arms and trunnions could be standard but one could offer perhaps 3 different paddle float sizes. Once the initial design had been worked out production would, I think be relatively straightforward.

Just some thoughts.

Stuart

[Talisman]

Well - my two pence worth!

Appreciated

Every time I make a set of wheels they are scale ones to suit one particular ship and no other. The present set will have 14 floats - disasterously innefficient, but SCALE. So being absolutely true to scale is number one for me, and if the real vessel had feathering floats then that's what I'd make. BUT, and it's a big but, commercially available wheels, especially for a working model would tempt me.

I know what you are saying Stuart and in no way would i want to reduce paddle steamers to the cheap ready to run type kits available. (No offence meant to anybody)
Perhaps if i could produce say a set of rimmed rimless and fixed and a 'generic' paddle tug wheel most of the bases would b covered?

I have to say that I have often wondered whether it would be possible to produce a set of components in kit form and vary them according to the wheel required. For instance a universal hub to accept 6, 8, 10 or 12 spokes. Spokes of say two patterns in various lengths. Wheel rims of various diameters etc. Then one could vary the contents of the 'kit' to produce many different wheels. Material waste would be minimal because one could use the waste say from the rings to produce spokes or other components..

Yep, thinking in a similar way.

PVC or ABS would be an ideal material to make the components from and certain components like paddle float arms and trunnions could be standard but one could offer perhaps 3 different paddle float sizes. Once the initial design had been worked out production would, I think be relatively straightforward..

my personal preference would to be produce in metal. what do others think / find acceptable?

Just some thoughts.

Stuart

Great! Thanks very much for you time and input
Kim

[Eddy Matthews]

Kim,

I have to admit that I've thought about producing paddlewheels myself many times, but my own opinion is that it could only be viable if I bought my own laser cutter (expensive!) and wrote off that cost, perhaps by producing other items to make it pay for itself?.

Your never going to sell huge volumes of paddlewheels, even though it's the one item that puts most people off building a paddler!

Having said that, Graupner have sold thousands of their wheels - But at approx 1:40 scale they are too big for some models, and not big enough for others!! Why did they pick that scale? It's beyond me!!

Barry in Oz has produced some great styrene wheels - I know I bought a set from him, and was more than happy with them, but I think even he will admit that demand isn't fantastic. Yes you can make some money with the right product, but your never going to be a millionaire!

I have a paddletug that I'd like to build, and I'd be the first to buy a set of paddlewheels from you if the right ones were available, but I do want to be realistic, and not say that there would be a huge demand when there wouldn't!

Regards
Eddy

[Talisman]

Kim,

I have to admit that I've thought about producing paddlewheels myself many times, but my own opinion is that it could only be viable if I bought my own laser cutter (expensive!) and wrote off that cost, perhaps by producing other items to make it pay for itself?.

I was until very recently the owner of a step four cnc machine. I couldn't justify the cost of replacement cutters to keep the machine
Laser cutting does seem to be the way to go but at this stage i can't see the demand justifying the purchase of a machine.
Just got to try and think a little smarter if this project is to grow legs....

Your never going to sell huge volumes of paddlewheels, even though it's the one item that puts most people off building a paddler!.

Totally understand what your saying Eddy and that s the drive to try and produce something affordable.

Having said that, Graupner have sold thousands of their wheels - But at approx 1:40 scale they are too big for some models, and not big enough for others!! Why did they pick that scale? It's beyond me!!!.

And been responsible for many out of scale paddle boxes  

Barry in Oz has produced some great styrene wheels - I know I bought a set from him, and was more than happy with them, but I think even he will admit that demand isn't fantastic. Yes you can make some money with the right product, but your never going to be a millionaire!

No intention of stepping on Barry's toes. As for being a millionaire i will keep trying .... lol

I have a paddletug that I'd like to build, and I'd be the first to buy a set of paddlewheels from you if the right ones were available, but I do want to be realistic, and not say that there would be a huge demand when there wouldn't!

I understand the lack of demand and didn't get into the hobby for commercial reasons just spotted a gap in the market and have the time / drive to research filling it.

Thanks Kim

[steamboatmodel]

"I was until very recently the owner of a step four cnc machine. I couldn't justify the cost of replacement cutters to keep the machine" When you are pricing jobs you have to include the price of tooling. I don't think the price for cutters would be much different for CNC than manual equipment.
My thoughts are that the market is such a small specialized one that it would be hard to make any money out of it. If you had a laser cutter and CNC equipment that were doing your main work you might make some change running sets off in slack time.
Regards,
Gerald.
PS When I do a set it will probably be out of ABS plastic or brass.

[greateastern]

I'm sticking my oar in here where I should fear to tread. Over the years there has been quite a bit of success with photo etching/chemical milling and there is an entire aftermarket for model airplane builders and recently  model ship builders.  I am assuming some are familiar with this process. Fr Prasky the Austrian modeller and engineer wrote an article in Model Shipwright, there are several in the American journal Nautical Research Journal and Brian King from the UK wrote a very good chapter in Modelling Late Victorian Warships on the "wonderfulness" of photo etching. The value lies in the fact that one only needs on set of drawings duplicated n number of times on a sheet of brass via a photo transfer that is made but the chemical miller,  and voila. The cost as I understand it is not prohibitive and a sheet of brass could contain several variations and or scales.  King also wrote a smaller book on photo etch and another chapter in Advance Ship Modelling. Where laser and cnc require doing one part at a time, etching does an entire sheet in 15 or 20 minutes depending on the thickness of the brass and the speed of the etchant. This is an idea that can certainly be shot down , but you'll need a 12 pounder at least.

[Harold H. Duncan]

Hi all,
Photo etching is an oft overlooked resource by most modellers, unless interested in very small scale building.
Photo etchers can etch upto at least 1mm, just have to allow for the undercut when doing your artwork, same as you have to allow for the width of the cut for laser work. Also can part-etch designs into the surface at the same time.
Well mentioned greateastern
cheers
kiwi

[Talisman]

I'm sticking my oar in here where I should fear to tread. Over the years there has been quite a bit of success with photo etching/chemical milling and there is an entire aftermarket for model airplane builders and recently  model ship builders.  I am assuming some are familiar with this process. Fr Prasky the Austrian modeller and engineer wrote an article in Model Shipwright, there are several in the American journal Nautical Research Journal and Brian King from the UK wrote a very good chapter in Modelling Late Victorian Warships on the "wonderfulness" of photo etching. The value lies in the fact that one only needs on set of drawings duplicated n number of times on a sheet of brass via a photo transfer that is made but the chemical miller,  and voila. The cost as I understand it is not prohibitive and a sheet of brass could contain several variations and or scales.  King also wrote a smaller book on photo etch and another chapter in Advance Ship Modelling. Where laser and cnc require doing one part at a time, etching does an entire sheet in 15 or 20 minutes depending on the thickness of the brass and the speed of the etchant. This is an idea that can certainly be shot down , but you'll need a 12 pounder at least.

Hi i haven't seen the book but etching is top of the reaserch list at the moment. Thanks for the info

Hi all,
Photo etching is an oft overlooked resource by most modellers, unless interested in very small scale building.
Photo etchers can etch upto at least 1mm, just have to allow for the undercut when doing your artwork, same as you have to allow for the width of the cut for laser work. Also can part-etch designs into the surface at the same time.
Well mentioned greateastern
cheers
kiwi

Yep i have never considered etching until just recently and do see the possibilities in paddle wheel manufacturing so thanks to both of you for confirming my thoughts.

[greateastern]

Tom Gorman (UK modeller) in his book Working Scale Model Merchant Ships   (Chatham, 1997) lists a few places in the UK that sell etched brass items, and perhaps if there is enough call, might add paddlewheels or do them on special order.
James Lane (display models) 30 The Broadway, Blyth, Northumberland, NE24 2PP tel: 01670 352051
  etched brass and nickel silver  ladders and stanchions etc in fine scales.

Precision Controls, 3 Chantry Ave, Rideford, Devon EX39 2QW tel: 476820  Fine scale ship fitting in brass and resin.
There are lots of interesting things in Gorman's book even covering davits on the Duchess of Fife. Gorman is a professionall modeller . It is worth a look-see if you haven't had the opportunity.

[ancoaster78]

Hi,

I have just read through this fascinating thread, and will add some thoughts.

Like you Kim and Eddy I have given thoughts to making paddle wheels, and other componants available, making the hobby pay for itself rather than a true business idea I suppose, but as I have not had opportunity to build anything for a couple of years I have been busy researching and thinking through many ideas rather than putting any of them into practise.

I think to succeed with paddle wheels, research into what people most frequently build might be the best place to start, then aim the product at them. for example, 1:48 scale Waverley's and 1:32 scale Paddle Tugs are probally (I havent done the research on this, only into the specific ships I have been drawing up) amongst the most common paddler models, so, I would consider getting plans of the Waverley's paddles and making a good kit of them, that ship will always be popular, and very similar wheels were used by the other LNER ships so the product would appeal to those building say the Talisman from the Metcalf hull. (This is just an example, when actually adding up numbers others types of ship might be more popular!!)

For me, this appeals more than tryin to make a generic paddle, or range of generic paddles as the real ships wheels were so varied that the generic design would make do for many, but be acurate for only a few. Tugs may well have had a lesser ranger of wheels than the longer distance steamers, so maybe finding out the most common size and number of floats and making a good kit for that would be a good starting place, if it was me considering goin ahead with this, that is the sort of way I would go about my research....

I also strongly think photo-etching is worth serious consideration, I am looking into this just now to get wheels made up for my 1:32 Jeanie Deans, I would look into making available once Im back in production everything I design and make for my own models to the public, not just paddle wheels but hulls and fittings too, seems to me a nice way to build up a range of products you're interested in and have each project you work on pay for itself, or at least have costs paid towards it without having to foot any cost up fron other than those involved in building the model for yourself the first time round. I got this idea a while back when reading a blog of a model warship enthusiast who did exactly this to fund his ever bigger projects!

Wow, that wasn't meant to be an essay, hope it helpful to someone in someway, all the best with the research! cheers