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General => Chat & Off Topic Stuff => Topic started by: steamboatmodel on October 07, 2008, 01:23:37 PM

Title: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 07, 2008, 01:23:37 PM
Model boat had an article called:
A simple ‘Kitchen’ type of rudder for steam powered models by Glynn Guest - 14/2/08
Does anyone have a copy of this article?
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on October 07, 2008, 04:12:54 PM
Hi PD's.....no Gerald I don't subscribe to the said publication.....but  :thinking...we have an excellent kitchen rudder artical in our down loads ....Derek
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 08, 2008, 04:30:48 AM
Hi Derek,
"we have an excellent kitchen rudder artical in our down loads .."
I have looked and can't find it, can you point it out to me?
Regards,
Gerald
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: mjt60a on October 08, 2008, 05:14:24 AM
I have that issue, it's basically a pair of rudders placed either side of the prop, with the top and bottom edges bent over toward the prop. They work together (remaining parallel to each other) for normal (ahead) steering and bring the rear ends together for 'astern'. He said they work pretty well if you want to use a simple engine that can't stop or reverse, such as a Mamod marine engine....
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 08, 2008, 08:32:42 AM
Its not the bottom part I am having problems with, but the top part and how you connect the control arms to the servos. I have a set done up similar to the set pictured, but ran into space problems setting up the servos.
Regards,
Gerald
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on October 08, 2008, 05:00:34 PM
Hi PD's.......just  :thinking Gerald........the following should work ..just read the words...

1) the vertical axis of the rudder pintal is 1/8" brass rod & is soldered to say the [plan view] stdb bucket on both top & bottom - this pintal is a clearance fit in the rudder lower support so the stdb bucket can rotate
2) the 1/8" pintal is connected to a push/pull cable & in turn the cable is connected to a servo crank

3) the port bucket is soldered to a 1/8" ID brass tube on to & bottom [you know ...that K&S brass telescoping stuff - the connection between the 1/8" OD pintal & the 1/8"ID tube will need a few 1/8" brass washer soldered to act as keepers between the two elements & also as basic thrust washers and connected to a second servo via a push/pull cable & in turn the cable is connected to a servo crank...the second servo is wired in reverse or is it called by a Y cable?

The only issue I see is setting the crank lengths accurately positioned & set......& possibly needing a digital proportional Tx & Rx to be able to set the required rudder component movements

The actual location of the servos is non critical from a functionality aspect...same for the push/pull cable lengths...they can be of differing total lengths...it is the resultant servo arm movements which must be equal.... :goodluck........

I will post this now & knock up a rough sketch.....Derek


Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: malcolmbeak on October 08, 2008, 06:42:44 PM
This is one I made years ago - it worked fine.
Malcolm
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: malcolmbeak on October 08, 2008, 06:47:47 PM
Oh!! I thought I had put rather more pictures here. I'll try again.
Malcolm
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on October 08, 2008, 06:56:02 PM
Hi PD's ....& thanks Malcolm......naturally I had never seen the examples before ....but just guessed on the functionality etc ....Derek
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: Roderick Smith on October 08, 2008, 08:19:03 PM
I had never seen one of these before, but I am struck by the resemblance to the clamshells fitted to some jet aircraft (notably Fokker F28) to provide reverse thrust without having thrust reversers.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on October 08, 2008, 09:50:49 PM
mmmmmmm thinking back PD's ...30 years ago I flew from Sydney to Perth on a 707,,,,then from Perth to Karratha on a Mc Robinson Mc Millar Fokker F28....all one class... :vacation...but mainly fly in workers returning after a weeks leave

I was called to play  :crash with the problematic main engine Woodward governer hydraulic amplifer pump system of a 100,000 tonne Australian vessel on return from drydock in Singapore

The F28 flights were supurb  :trophy...& much better than the previous F27s turbo prop......... :nono.....Derek
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 09, 2008, 12:25:54 AM
Hi Malcolm,
Maybe I need more Coffee, but I can't figure out where you connect the servos on the one you show? It definitely looks more compact than the design I had worked out. Do you have a shot of it installed in a boat? Maybe that would sink in. I am trying to do this with mechanical mixing rather than using a radio with mixing on it, but I may break down and do electronic mixing on this one, and then build another hull with the mechanical mixing in it.
Thanks all,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: mjt60a on October 09, 2008, 05:06:27 AM
The Model Boats article used, as I said, TWO rudders, not a 'real' kitchen rudder. There was a servo connected to each. I think he used one of those programmable transmitters because the steering stick operated both servos (to turn left and right) and the throttle stick caused them to move from parallel (full ahead) to rear edges touching (full astern) with a mid point producing no movement of the boat in either direction as some prop wash went through a small gap between them while the rest was re-directed forward.
You could read it on  http://www.modelboats.co.uk/  though you have to join first, but if you already have a 'proper' kitchen rudder with a single pivot point for both halves (like the pictures shown) the MB article won't be of any use...
(by the way, the article appears in the january 2008 edition)
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: kno3 on October 09, 2008, 08:20:43 AM
Very interesting topic. I'm thinking of using a Kitchen rudder too for my next boat project. I have looked at the model boats website but the article about the rudder seems to be accessible only to subscribers of the magazine, no way to get or buy it separately. And I don't think the magazine is available in Germany. Could anyone help?
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 09, 2008, 08:29:57 AM
Thanks for the explanation Nick, The simplest way for now will probably to use an electronic mix either in the transmitter or a separate one hocked up to the receiver. I will post when I get it done.
Regards,
Gerald
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: kno3 on October 09, 2008, 09:26:41 AM
How exactly is this electronic mix done? I don't really have a clue about programming remote controls (yet). I have a Graupner MC 12 which should be capable of some programming & stuff.
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 09, 2008, 01:59:46 PM
My understanding is that I will have to use the same type of mixing as the fly boys us on a V tail plane. How this is done Electronically I am not sure. I have picked up a 6 channel radio that is intended for robotics that is supposed to do mixing. the problem with it is that it is intended to be used with a microprocessor unit (which I don't have), so I have to do a hack on the receiver part (adding a decoder section) so I can use regular servos with it.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Kitchen Rudder
Post by: andrewh on October 10, 2008, 06:32:39 PM
I have somewhere the two articles by Glyn - and will try and dig them out

He uses electronic mixing - from the transmitter  - its the type called elevon or V-tail mixing (if you have a clever Tx) or just mixing if you have mine!

For anyone who finds it a bit daunting to set up there are many mixer add-ons that plug into receivers for about 15 pounds which will do the job simply

To relate this to Paddlers its the same mixing that you need to control two independant paddle wheels from one stick!
andrew