Channel 4 documentary

[Dallinson]

Hi there Paddleducks.

Here is a challenge for the model ship owners/builders amongst you.
The film Company making the documentary for Channel 4 is based in London.
They want to re-create the tug of war between the "Rattler" (screw ship) and
the "Alecto" (a paddler) . They are looking for models of at least one meter
long (20lbs plus) that could be easily modified to give an outline that
looked like the above two ships. The original ships were Rattler 176' long
by 32' 6" beam and the Alecto 164' Long by 32' 6" beam.
They must of course be radio controlled. They do NOT require a huge amount
of detail with respect to the upper works. They really just want to create a
short sequence where the Rattler pulls the Alecto backwards. They already
know that the original test was "rigged", as the Admiralty had already
ordered some screw ships and needed to support that decision against a
paddle lobby within the Admiralty!!

They are also looking for any models about the same size of the "Great
Eastern" and "Great Britain"

If anyone has models, which they think might possibly fit the above
requirement, please contact me and I will put you in contact with the man in
charge.

Don't be shy!! Get your model out on the water. If you both a suitable screw
or paddler you could even make a few pounds out of it!! Let me know soon.

All the best
David

[Paulrjordan]

Hi David and thank you so much for "keeping keeping the home fires
burning" (or in our case "keeping the big wheels turning")!

This sounds fascinating. I had no idea the event was "rigged"..I'm
wondering how exactly.

I'm not clear if the Film company wants to re-create the actual event
in model form or to demonstrate that the event was rigged by showing
paddlers MIGHT have more thrust than their screw counterparts. (Are
you accepting wagers, David ?)

The idea of a model "tug-o-war" between a paddler and a screw vessel
to re-create what happened originally seems to me fraught with
challenges. The screw pitch and thrust of the contender would have
to be fairly accurate to the original ship, as would the thrust
characteristics of the paddler. Knowing the kind of torque that some
modern tug models have, I doubt there's a model paddler in the world
that could prevail.

However if the film company is willing to recreate a bit of history
ACCURATELY, then it wouldn't be a stretch to take a "Director" model
and put her into the challenge against a fair rendition of
the "Alecto". A "Director" should run very well minus her
superstructure. For instance Co-Moderator Eddy in the UK has a
beautiful "Director" model which, because she has some stability
issues, should run fine without her superstructure. (By the way David
has kindly placed a picture of Eddy's "Forceful" on our home page at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paddleducks/

I have also just made contact with another "Director" owner, Ian
Kennedy, in the UK, and I know we have at least a couple of
other "Directors" in the group here.

Incidentally, Mike Taylor in London has a 14' model of the "Great
Eastern" in his living room and, whilst it may be far too big for the
film company, would certainly be impressive to see again on the water.
David, do you think the Film Company might be interested in
persuading Mike to knock out his living room window to get the model
out again after sitting for 20 years?

In any case, just some first thoughts on this subject which I will
follow with interest and look forward to hearing lots more from other
Paddleducks. After all..our credibility is at stake here!!

PJ
Victoria, BC
Canada

[Dallinson]

PJ.
Many thanks for your kind words and input.
I had quite a long telephone conversation with Daniel yesterday. He told me
of the plans for the documentary. I told him that I would try and help with
the model ship bits. It hardly needs mentioning that they have a limited
budget and cannot afford to build dedicated models from scratch. Hence his
approach to a group that might have ready built models (or nearly ready
built). A Director with a lightweight plasticard outline superstructure
instead of the full Director superstructure, would probably be a good start.
Incidentally Mike Mayhew has already spoken to Daniel.
I should point out that the documentary is actually not about paddle ships
and screw ships, it is about the great Victorian engineers. The paddle
versus screw bit is just a few seconds (probably!!) to show how the
development of ship propulsion changed (some would say progressed??), but
not always by fair means. Many of the public watching it may well not know
the difference between a paddler and a screw ship. Most people today
probably think ships have always been propelled by screw. The models would
show them the difference.
I don't think that the tuning or otherwise of the actual models is really an
issue. It is just to show how the test was set up. Obviously with electronic
speed controllers either ship can be made to win. The public will not know
that!! As long as they are about the same size and have a block outline
representing the two ships, that is all he is really after.
I think it is a great opportunity to get some publicity for paddlers.
I hope that we can get together some ships worth his while to film.

All the best
David
PS He arrived at us via Christian and his GE site!!!

[Derek Warner]

Just a humble comment David, but if the "Admiralty had already ordered some screw ships
and needed to support that decision against a paddle lobby within the Admiralty", why should
anyone our Paddleduck members give further support to their case of so many years ago
by offering a paddle wheeler to be hauled stern first by a screw driven vessel?? - regards Derek

[Dallinson]

Derek.
Good point.
How does this sound?
It is for a documentary which will explain that actually paddle ships were
better pullers, but that the "Rattler Alecto pull" and previous races were
all a "set-up" by the Admiralty!! He has a copy of the P.N.Thomas book which
gives very clear explanation of what went on. According to Thomas there had
been a number of previous tests, which had shown that paddlers could pull
harder for a given horsepower. Remember that the Admiralty went back to
paddlers for the Director class of tugs.
At least that is the explanation he gave me. I do not think it would be any
problem for Paddleducks to give a hand to make the documentary and make a
few pounds out of it? OK, no-one wants to see our favourite ships being
pulled backwards, but it is only for a documentary and I don't think
reflects badly on our group or our models.
All the best
David

[Dallinson]

Derek
Here is a reply from the researcher at Wind-fall Films making the
documentary.
It could turn out even better for us that I had hoped!! Nothing venture
nothing win!!

QUOTE
"Dear David,

A lot of naval architects have agreed that paddlewheels are very efficient
as tugs - although it's been indicated that their ability to win in such
contests depends very much on the relative gearing of the vessels.

We don't have any intention of fixing the trial and it would perhaps be a
nice twist to see the paddler win - if this is scientifically valid. As you
mention, we also have every intention of portraying the political backdrop,
within the Admiralty, to the original contest." UNQUOTE

Hope that this will help to still your fears and allow you to participate if
you so wish.
Regards
David

[Derek Warner]

on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 11:01 PM, David Allinson wrote

'According to PN Thomas there had been a number of previous tests, which had shown that paddlers
could pull harder for a given horsepower'

Thanks David & I acknowledge you comments, however if an Australian TV production team sought
availability of models say - PS Industry [by Brett] or PS Decoy being towed backwards by an under
powered screw driven vessel in a deceitful test manner, would result in Brett or myself graciously
declining the offer [hope I have your support here Brett]

We must remember that 'documentary's last for years' - so may the truth be shown to our grand
children in the first place [who may end up with grandpa's paddle wheeler] - regards Derek

[Dallinson]

Paddlershippers.

I have been thinking over my involvement in this matter and have decided
that as I can really do nothing constructive in providing the boats, from
here in Spain. It would therefore be much easier if I give you the name and
contact details of the man involved, so that anyone who is interested can
contact him direct and talk things over with him.

He is name Daniel Fromm of Windfall Films

e-mail Daniel@windfall-films.co.uk

Telephone No 020 7251 7653

Al the best.
David

[george britnell]

Gentlemen,
I don't mean to spoil anyones fun but I think you are
getting way off track on this subject of what could
pull harder, a screw or a paddlewheel. Heaven knows I
am the greatest fan of paddlewheel vessels but if
history has already been made and someone wants to
make a documentary about something that has
alreoccurredured, whether we like it or not, what is
the problem with helping these people out with their
project. As with any experiment that people with their
own agenda perform the outcome can become slanted in
their favor. If you want to prove a vehicle will or
won't perform to a certain set of criteria just rig
the test to prove what you want. I remember back when
Audi was dragged through the mud for supposedly
suddenly accelerating without the driver's input. Then
there was the case of the American television network
putting charges into early Chevrolet trucks to sgas
tanksthe gastanks would explode in an accident. I
guess what I'm getting at is we can't change history
but let's not take it so seriously tembarrassedl we
would be embarrased for life if a paddleboat got
pulled backwards. History has already been documented.

Just a view from someone who has been reading all of
the posts on the subject.
On another subject, here's wishing you all a very
Happy Holiday and may all your modeling dreams come
true.
George D. Britnell (SUTER paddleboat)

[Dallinson]

Gentlemen Paddlers
Attached is a post that I have just received from Daniel. Sounds good fun to
me!
Get onto the Daniel if you would like to be involved.
If I was to hand I would certainly be game.
David (far from the action in Spain)
PS I have put him right with the site address.


Reply to: RE: FW: Hulls for filming.

Dear Mike,

Hope you're well.

A further idea that we've had - inspired by the outcry from the paddlers
amongst your group - would be to set up some sort of challenge between a
group of paddle afficionados and some propeller fans. Basically we could
provide both sides with the same hull and motor and allow them to design
their own propulsion method and refine the transmission accordingly. Is this
an idea that you think might appeal to your members?

I did try to have a look at your site, but don't seem to have the right url,
could you possibly send me the correct address.

Many thanks,

Daniel Fromm
Researcher, Windfall Films


T: 020 7251 7653
E: daniel@windfall-films.co.uk

David Allinson wrote:
> 0 DocumentEmail
>Daniel.
>Some of the replies I have been getting are a little negative. They wonder
>why members of group with our favourite ships (Paddlers) would want to be
seen
>being pulled backwards, when they can actually pull harder for a given
horsepower.
>I have assured them that you will include some description in the
documentary
>that it was a 60;set-up61; by the Admiralty and that paddlers could
actually out-perform
>screw ships at the time.
>I have put this explanation out to the site and await any further
developments.
>Glad Mike Mayhew looks a possibility.
>Regards
>David
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniel Fromm [mailto:daniel@windfall-films.co.uk]
>Sent: 17 December 2002 12:36
>To: David Allinson
>Subject: RE: FW: Hulls for filming.
>
>
> Reply to: RE: FW: Hulls for filming.
>
>
>Dear David,
>
> Many thanks for forwarding my e-mail to Mike Mayhew, I've just had a very
>interesting conversation with him and this looks like an excellent
possibility.
>If anybody else does get in touch with you, it would still be great to have
a chat
>with them, so I'd be grateful if you could continue to hand out my details.
>
> All the best,
>
> Daniel Fromm
> Researcher, Windfall Films
>
>
> T: 020 7251 7653
> E: daniel@windfall-films.co.uk
>
> David Allinson wrote:
>> 0 DocumentEmail
>>Daniel.
>>I think this chap has just what you are after.
>>I have given him your contact e-mail.
>>All the best
>>David
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: mike mayhew [mailto:waverley.models@virgin.net]
>>Sent: 17 December 2002 02:53
>>To: dallinson@ateneu-inf.es
>>Subject: Hulls for filming.
>>
>>Dear David, Although at present I have no completed models of what you
are
>>asking, I do have a Brig some 60" bow to stern which could be adapted to
the
>>screw vessel and I have a 58" hull moulding which could be the paddler.
>Any help?
>>Best Regards ...... Mike Mayhew

[Paulrjordan]

--- In Paddleducks@yahoogroups.com, "David Allinson" <dallinson@a...>
wrote:
> Gentlemen Paddlers
> Attached is a post that I have just received from Daniel. Sounds
good fun to
> me!
> Get onto the Daniel if you would like to be involved.
> If I was to hand I would certainly be game.
> David (far from the action in Spain)
> PS I have put him right with the site address.
>

Hey this DOES sound like fun! Darn it, wish I wasn't so far away too
and had some TIME!...bit of a long paddle across the pond from
Canada! I am under NO delusion that a screw vessel will in all
likelihood beat the transom off our beloved paddlers. George is
right..we'd be hard pushed to rewrite history, but that's not really
the idea is it! It's ideally to show the world that there's a great
bunch of people all over the world who love building model paddlers
and learning about REAL ones...that means YOU!

This might provide some good publicity for the group and a little
showcase for the fabulous models you guys (girls?) make and
definitely a giggle for some of our more intrepid UK members.
Anybody up for this "Fun challenge"? With the emphasis on the word
FUN? "Waverley" Mike? Stuart? I'd say Eddy 'cept he's up to his
gunwhales with scale speedboats at the moment!

I say let's go for it! Any restrictions on the size of paddlewheel we
can use..

In haste

PJ
Victoria, BC
Canada

[Randal R Largent]

Whoooeeee.
If nothing else this sure did wake up the group.
I can't supply anything for this test idea but I know from what I have
read that they used to use paddle ferries on the Detroit river during the
winter months to free other boats from the ice.
That's testament enough for me.
Randy Largent

[Mike Mayhew]

Paul thanks for the invite to comment, I have been in contact with Daniel,
and have here two large hullsof some 60" x 18" one an American Brig 1812,and
a similar hull which would make the Paddler.Looking at some detailed
drawings of both ships ,it would take but a short while to modify my models
into what Daniel wants.
Hope to meet up after Christmas. "Gone quiet did I say? comments by the
dozen. Best wishes Mike

[Derek Warner]

on Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:42 AM, paulrjordan <pj@paddleducks.com wrote :

I am under NO delusion that a screw vessel will in all likelihood beat the transom off our beloved paddlers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry PJ - the question is too complex within given constraints - the researcher from Channel 4 in his comments
made reference to 'a same hull & equal output power' which is great, but who can make it happen?

I understand the transition between paddle to screw, but it was simply [improved efficiencies with diesel engines,
+korts nozzles+bow thrusters] etc

So my cards are on the table & = any given KW designed power will produce greater pulling capacity via paddles
over that of a same KW designed powered screw propeller vessel

On a concluding note, I could only ask we pray for our world, in that it be quiet & restful in the period over the next
weeks or months [or and years] - regards Derek

[dragoncity]

Interesting comments re: paddlers verses screw driven ships !
( and who said things were quiet in paddleducks , it was just the lull before the storm !! :-)

As a matter of history ( Murray River of course), screw driven vessels were not very popular
as work horses on the river system, as paddlers were found to be far more efficient
as towing machines. This does not surprise me, when you consider the AREA of the
BLADE(s) pushing against the water comparing to the screws 2 to 4 blades of much smaller
surface area against ( 8 to 12 floats ) x 2 ! of a side-paddler. Obviously not all are in the
water at the same time, but it does raise the interesting fact that a fully laden paddler ,
down to gunwalls, was still able to tow a fully laden barge !

Considering early screws were of fixed pitch and very inefficient, hydrodynamically speaking, I
think a typical Murray Paddler ( or the FORCEFUL class tugs) would be a strong contender in a
towing competition.

Also if you damaged your screw , a very distinct possibility on a falling river, there was no
possibility of repairs on site, whereas a paddlewheel could be 'helped' in its repairs by the
appropriate use of a sledge-hammer or axe !!

However against a rigged event, the results speak for themselves.
( If you can't rig an event you can't get the results you desire :-)

Mind you, with todays wonderful variable pitch, hydrodynamically "perfect" props and huge
horsepower tugs I doubt even a modern paddler would win.

However, I'm quite happy to donate my P.S Industry ( radio included) to the 'event' -- as long as I
get a fully paid all expenses first class return trip to deliver the boat and see the "event" !! :-)
( Sorry DEREK :-)

Cheers,
BRETT