Help Wanted, Paddler Identification.

[Mark G]

Hi All,
This may sound like a strange request for help with identification, but I assume building accurate scale models of paddle steamers would require the sort of knowledge which may help my research.

About a week ago, while scuba diving, I discovered the wreckage of a very old Paddle Steamer in about 50ft of water near the entrance to Milford Haven waterway in West Wales. The wreck does not seem to be documented in any of the usual places, but I would like to try and at least identify what type of boat it was.

The wreckage has a riveted steel hull and it looks like only one paddle. The spoked frames from either side of the paddle have collapsed on top of each other, the lower frame seems to have a continuous gear or sprocket around the outside. Most of the wreckage has been battered by storms at this shallow depth, so not enough of it left to get an idea of size or shape.

I was able to get some high definition video of the wreck although the visibility was not particularly good. You can view the video here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr1jEX-KLiE

Selecting a resolution higher than 360 will improve the quality for those with a faster internet connection.

I would be grateful for any information you might deduce.

Thanks in anticipation.

Mark

[djcf]

Hi Mark,
Very interesting video there. Its hard to say but I'm not 100% sure that is a paddle wheel...seems to have too many spokes and the toothed edge....unless its really old maybe some sort of experimental paddle wheel / stern wheel. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of pivot points for feathering gear on the spokes, so if it is a paddlewheel its probably quite early/mid 1800s.

I know paddle steamer Mercury was based at Milford Haven and swept mines...sank Christmas Day 1940, but I'm sure she foundered out in the Irish sea.

Do you have a rough idea of the size of the wreck?

regards
Clark

[steamboatmodel]

I have to agree with Clark, I don't think that is a paddle wheel. It might have been gear for net handling, so it might have been a fishing boat? Did you see any machinery that might give an idea of power or masts? I don't know how fast growth covers wrecks, but maybe some thing from around WW1?
Regards,
Gerald.
PS you could contact "Time Team".

[Mark G]

Hi Clark & Gerald
I couldn't estimate the size of the wreck, as the wreckage is quite spread out on the bottom. Judging by the condition of other wrecks in the area and the amount of concretion on the steelwork here, I would say it's well over a hundred years old.

I estimate the "paddle wheel?" frames are around 12 - 15ft in diameter although I can't see any feathering device.

Here's a still image of the centre boss, taken from the video and enhanced a little;



I didn't see any sign of an engine, but in the visibility it could have been 20ft away. I may not get chance to visit the site again this year, but I will try and explore the area more the next chance I get.

I'm grateful that you took the time to look at the video. If anyone can add anything more about the possible identification, please do. If I can track down any more info, I'll post it here.

Cheers

Mark

[Dinosaursoupman]

It looks to me to be one of the earlier transatlantic paddlesteamers. The majority of those were sidewheelers without feathering gear. Having a riveted hull could mean an iron hull which would place it in the early-mid 1800s, or a steel hull which places it in the the late-mid 1800s.

Randy

[Barry]

Could it be a cable reel? The SS Behar, carrying cable, was mined during the second world War and sank in the area. [I'm not local so I don't know the geography I might be miles out]

Lies Milford Haven/South of Great Castle Head. Holed by mine and beached. Part raised for scrap and the remainder blasted. Lies in 15-20 metres. Height of wreck 10 metres. Lies on sand and rock. Large amounts of cable. Owners Pembroke Underwater Search and Survey. Chart 2878 & 3272; OS 157. LISTED AS A WAR GRAVE. There is also a buoy on the chart and is located at position 52 42.41N, 5 06.98W (deg rees, minutes and decimals) - note that this is the chart position of the buoy, not the wreck! From the buoy, follow the transit to the north with an echo-sounder.

You should pick up wreckage about halfway to the rocks, rising a few metres from a 14m seabed as you cross the south-east transit

From the website http://wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?10981

[Mark G]

Hi Barry,
I've dived the Behar many times, it's about 2 miles away and has nowhere near the same level of concretion built up on the steelwork. I subscribe to http://www.wrecksite.eu/ which does not list a wreck in the position we found the spoked frames which is on Chapel Rocks, near the entrance to the haven.

Thank you for your input.

Mark

[Mark G]

It looks to me to be one of the earlier transatlantic paddlesteamers. The majority of those were sidewheelers without feathering gear. Having a riveted hull could mean an iron hull which would place it in the early-mid 1800s, or a steel hull which places it in the the late-mid 1800s.

Randy

Thank you Randy, I'll explore that possibility.

Cheers

Mark

[djcf]

Most British coastal paddlers had wheels in the region of 16 -20 feet diameter...I'm not certain but I would think a transatlantic steamer may have larger wheels, but I am open to correction?

 However going back to the very eary paddlers, I'm sure the wheels were much smaller, and without feathering gear.

If it is a paddlewheel, it looks to me like a sternwheel from one of those steamers built for African river service.

Another thing to check is Blockade Runners, in the early 1860s a lot of British paddlers went across the Atlantic, or tried to. I don't have any info to hand, but I'm sure some were wrecked in the Irish sea area due to storms etc.

The thing that makes me suspect it may not be a paddlewheel is the toothed wheel/rim.

Very interesting though, keep us informed please Mark, if you find out any more

Clark

[Walter Snowdon]

Hello Mark. I have watched the video several times and I would come down on the view that it isa cable reel on a smallish cable layer. The haven was heavily fortified and with the coming of the terlegraph I would think that the many forts and gun batteries would all be linked by unsderwater cables of a small size and would require a lot of maintainance probably by Royal Signals regiment who like the Royal Engineers had a number of small inshore craft.
My reason for thinking it may not be a paddle wheel is that the hub is very insubstantial and would be a large iron casting as would the paddle shaft which would take a very long time to rot and would outlive the remains of the hull for a very long time.
If you search the web for the wreck of thepaddle steamer CITY OF BRISTOL you will see what I mean. This ship sdank on the sands near WORMS HEAD in wales abou 1838 and at low tide the Hubs ,paddle shifts and engine are still recognisable standing proud of the sand and can be approached on foot at low tide.
Regards, Walter.

[Mark G]

Hi Walter,

Thanks for your reply. I think their may be some merit in your theory, which was already mentioned by Barry in an earlier post. Admittedly I know nothing about paddle steamers, which was why I was happy to jump to the conclusion that this was a paddle wheel.

I have re-examined the picture that I previously posted of the centre hub, and can possibly see what might be the remaining tail of cable which could have been wound around a drum. I've highlighted it in this picture.



I won't rule out any of the other possibilities until I can return to the site for a better look, but I am grateful for everyone's input on the subject so far.

I will let you know if their are any other developments from the research on the site.

Cheers

Mark

[mjt60a]

......the lower frame seems to have a continuous gear or sprocket around the outside....

I noticed that, looks like it was for driving the thing round? if it was a cable reel that could make sense if used for recovering a cable, less likely for driving a paddle wheel...
I've seen something similar on the 'driven wheel' of some types of beam engine - but the wheel isn't constructed in the way the one in the video is... 

[Mark G]

It seems all my first impressions of the wreck are probably wrong, I had done a little research on the internet before posting here and had found this photo of an early steam engine from a 1820 paddler called the Comet.



The gear drive fitted my imaginings perfectly and from then on it could only be an unknown paddle steamer. 

I will take all you've said on board and try and get back to the site as soon as possible for some more poking around.

Cheers

Mark