Horizontal twin paddler engine

[bogstandard]

I was going to design a horizontal paddler engine this year, but due to medical problems and workshop rebuild I never actually got around to it.

It seems that me being slow doing anything has turned up trumps.

I found this on one of my favourite French sites, where I purchase a few plans from, and it is a freebie.

http://jpduval.free.fr/Plans_moteurs_vapeur_p2.htm

Because of it being a piston valve, wack a fwds/rev controller on it and you are in business.

It is a 14mm bore X 18mm stroke so it should easily power up to a 5ft paddler, maybe a little more.

To get to the plans (PDF) just click on the CAD generated drawing on the top of the page.

So all those who have a bit of machining under their belt, this could be the way to go.

John

[Eddy Matthews]

What a great find John, thanks...

Now if only I had the necessary machinery to build it.... Oh and the skills needed to do it would also help!

I would assume this would need gearing to give an output RPM suitable for our use?

Regards
Eddy

[bogstandard]

Eddy,

I think a 2 or 3 to1 reduction would be perfect.

I can show the way how to do it, but it is difficult to get machinery and skills into the hands of everyone who would like to make one. That is the stumbling block.

When it eventually comes to the top of my very long 'to do' list, I will most probably knock out a couple or three, as it is just as easy to make more than one as you are set up.

I have a load of machine tooling to make, plus about four or five engines before this one gets anywhere near the top, and I don't even have a lathe yet, that is coming next thursday.

But for those that do have the facilities and skills, it looks a rather good build.

John

[derekwarner_decoy]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...Hi Pd's......I would be the first to consider to purchase the 4th [MVhTC14x18] [V4] model off the production line...based upon

1) V4 will have stainless steel sealed ball bearings in the big end
2) V4 a 50 diameter x 12 width contured flywheel was fitted to the LH 5 diameter journal
3) V4 will have simple reversing gear as standard......all or both of which are a bogstandard standard 

This is a LARGE horizontal engine @ 14 bore x 18 stroke .....so is very similar in physical size & displacement to the Saito  TY-2DR horizontal engine @ 12 bore x 20 stroke  ......Saito quote a 1000mm to 1500mm hull length........I think they have been  too much Saki  - Derek

[bogstandard]

Hi Derek,

Confusing me again with all those numbers and letters.

As you have duly noted, I can leave nothing as standard, and yes, I am sure some S.S. bearings would creep in there.

Again you are showing your fetish for flywheels. I thought Sandy and myself had talked you out of that in a previous discussion.

The contoller that I made on my previous effort would fit the bill perfectly, plus maybe the multistart thread luber as well.

I think Saito have it all wrong in my estimation. Going on the results from my 10x20 oscillator with the gearing on, 5 to 6ft for this one is definitely nearer the mark (that is on about 25 psi).
On my little horizontal, the gearing makes it almost impossible to stop the shaft turning on just 5 to 10psi, so I am sure 3.5 to 4.5ft for that would be ideal.

John

[derekwarner_decoy]

OK PD's.....my prediction  ...this "Horizontal twin paddler engine" item ...could surpass that 'built of junk'
posting 8,524 views,,,,,

Bogstandard....when I look at @ page 3 of MVhTC14x18....I assume it is drawn in Inventor or Solid Edge .....especially when I see the 3D view of the valve block

 & yes........more time for me to consider ...........Derek

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's....spent a few hours considering this engine  ...it is immensely complicated from a material perspective....on Drawing MVhTC14x18 01 we see the base frame or 'entablature' of the engine

OK ....76 long x 52 wide ....but the material nominated is 'Plat laiton' 25x6 et tole laiton ep2' ....= 6mm thick [finished size] brass plate

My machining skills are VERY rusty & I have no machinary ...so lets hope that the CNC X, Y + Z axis'....will be working on the new mill @ Crewe Engineering ....with the dog called Bandit as the programmer   ...............Derek

[bogstandard]

Again Derek,

Jumping to conclusions.

My mill isn't CNC, I only wish. It is a fully manual one, with bits added to help me turn the handwheels.

The materials aren't an issue on this one. All the framework could be made out of ali, which would cost a lot less than brass plate, and because of all the webbing, would be just as rigid.
Bearing surfaces would have to have a good dose of looking at though. Cylinders, I would consider bronze or cast iron, with sacrificial brass or bronze pistons (it is easier to remake a worn out piston than a cylinder). I in fact, would make the framework from engraving brass, as I have plenty in stock.

I have no idea what the cad package is that was used. As you know, I only work with Scrap-O-Cad. A lot easier and cheaper to use. It only requires a fag packet and a felt tip. If you want me to send you a kit of my cad package, send $25 to .............. P&P extra.

John

[kiwimodeller]

John, if it is just as easy to make 2 or 3 as it is to make 1 then imagine how easy it would be to make 7 or 8  (on the theory that each multiple increases the ease of manufacture) and we will all be queing up for one. At last a real paddler engine that lies down on the job and with enough grunt to power a proper size hull - just what we have been dreaming of. "The impossible we expect immediately - miracles we will wait a little longer for". Cheers, Ian.

[derekwarner_decoy]

Again PD's......I suggest this is a very complex build...but a challange only to those with the knowledge & machinary

1) Drawing MVhTC14x18 00...in the 3D view shows that the valve blocks are are radiused to the cylinders
2) the Plan view on the same Drawing suggests that the valve blocks are flat faced to the cylinders
3) Drawing MVhTC14x18 03 in Section CC shows the cylinder...but does not detail the OD
4) Section EE on the same Drawing shows the radius of the valve block as R12....~~~~~therefore assume that the cylinder diameter is D24
5) Drawing MVhTC14x18 00 nominates the 'Soldure a letian haute temperature' of the valve blocks to the cylinders which would cause distortion in both the piston valve bores & cylinder bores...so line bore them  after soldering???......I am sure that an alternate bolted construction could be achieved

 ...........Derek

 

[bogstandard]

I am doing a bit of a resurrection on this post, for reasons that will become obvious.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel a bit guilty in letting you down by not designing and making an engine for you flat propellor people.

I have given the plans a real good dose of looking at, and Derek is correct in his comments,  thank you Derek. The only thing I don't agree with is making a bolted construction of the steam chest. Too much going on in such a small space can lead to too many problems. The steam chests could easily be soft soldered on, but in my case, I would use silver solder, but only lap afterwards. I have found that even with fairly harsh heat, distortion can be controlled with just a gentle lapping rather than full boring.

As I said, I have given them a good scan and come to the conclusion that to put ball races of any sort of diameter will cause a few design problems, mainly because of the one piece crank. Smaller ones could be accommodated in the two outer bearing supports, and I will look at a reasonably priced small bearing that should do the job. Even without bearings, with the correct material selection and lubrication, I can envisage us all pushing up daisies before it would be worn out.

The reason for all this, the quack has said to get my a**e into gear and get moving, if I can do that, he will help me as much as possible to get my body working properly again. So after the workshop is finished off, one major contract to do, then I am looking at making a batch of these engines. Don't know how many yet because I will have to look what I have in stock material wise.

What I will be doing though, like my scrap engine before, I will be cataloguing the build as I go, so hopefully a few of the members with basic machining facilities will be able to tag along and pick up a few tips.

We are not talking next week, but most probably in a couple of months. I reckon the build can easily be done in about six weeks if all goes well. A nice winter project for some of you.
Unfortunately some of our big pond cousins in the US might struggle a bit with metric, but this being a fairly quick project, I don't have time to do an imperial conversion.

So when I get aroundtuit, I will raise a post for the build.

John

[Eddy Matthews]

Fantastic news John!! 

Any idea on the price of these babies yet? I could be tempted to put my name on the list!

Regards
Eddy

[derekwarner_decoy]

OK PD's..as an inducement....maybe I should post over another ream of second hand paper & a few worn out pencils & a few dog bones for Vinnie...sorry about the empty fag packets John ......I ....gave up 10 years ago

Great news  ......many PD members will line up each evening to  ...& check their computer for your postings

But remember PD's  this is a big engine........& would dictate a hull of some 2000 mm length & an engine space ...approx 120 mm wide x 150 mm long


The Drawing MVhTC14x18 00 prints out @ approx 96% of true size so provides a good visual of the real engine size & hull requirement + also needs a bloody big boiler & space to install it ..... .................Derek

[bogstandard]

I have just taken note of what Derek said, and it is a big engine.

If people would prefer it, I could do a batch of the smaller oscillators that I converted to horizontal, but it would mean having to put up with a few of my fag packet sketches.



It will in fact look a lot more professional than the one shown, as that one was a conversion of the upright upright engine.

These can easily be run from a standard boiler and are plenty powerful enough for up to say 5ft, if a slim hull, or a standard director class. This engine has four stainless shielded bearings, and is based around the twin vertical from the same site that the larger engine plans came from, but much modified. At 5psi, you cannot stop the shafts turning, unless you end up with very badly friction burnt fingers.

One of these horizontal engines is out in the field at the moment, being built into a paddler, but until it is finished, I don't expect any feedback. Maybe early next year. The vertical ones have proved to be more powerful than was originally thought, and are pushing around boats up to over 4.5ft with no problems, one was formerly fitted with a Cheddar Gemini, and was dropped in place of the original engine, but only running on a frugal 25psi.

I will leave the choice to yourselves. Just let me know which one you would prefer to see built.

John

[derekwarner_decoy]

OK PD's.... ...considering OZ is the first location in the world each day to see the new sun each morning...I am the first to respond to bogstandard...& by that time it is   ...so good morning John.......

1) I would love to see & read the construction build dialogue & .jpgs of the MVhTC14x18 00
2) But.....in reflection, I would never consider the purchase of such a BIG engine.......& the resultant .....25 to 30 kg hull?

I think my thinking cap must go on ...for a few hours ....as that little horizontal oscilitator [as shown below] has great visual/practical...use

Just my humble thoughts....but we have another 1000 members ..............Derek