CSAY

[paddlesteamerman1]

Sorry  :
I didn't click when the Clyde was mentioned.. and it is most definately Scottish.. Thanks for the correction!!
I really am very interested in the paddlers ( and I love the look of them - I have searched the internet for pictures and read the sites [ a couple of them get mention in one of my rather large British/Scottish Marine history book]).

[AlistairD]

I think it's time for another Clyde steamer for use  to savour.
 Â 
 Here are a couple of shots of LORD OF THE ISLES. She was built  in 1891 by D & W Henderson for the day return oute from Glasgow to Inveraray  at the head of Loch Fyne for the Glasgow and Inveraray Steamboat Co Ltd., and  replaced an earlier similar steamer of the same name
 Â 
 She only ran in the summer months, and left Glasgow's  Broomielaw at 7:20 a.m. each day and arrived at inveraray at 1:30 pm., sailing  on the return journey an hour later, returning to Glasgow at about 8:15  p.m.
 Â 
 In 1912 her owners were taken over by Turbine Steamers Ltd,  which operated the turbine screw steamer KING EDWARD on the same route, although  starting from Greenock rather then Glasgow, and LORD OF THE ISLES was taken off  the Inveraray route and was employed on a round Bute cruise from Glasgow. She  continued operating throughout the First World War, mainly sailing to  Lochgoilhead because the boom across the firth at Dunoon, and was withdrawn at  the end of 1928 at Port Glasgow.
 Â 
 Alistair

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's ......a bit quiet on the pages so ......as Alistair said....

mainly sailing to Lochgoilhead

Was this something to do all those years ago which would have been a little     :ohno wippersnapper called Sandy now from ACS  :?:   as thats his NECK o' the woods... but how do we pronounce it :arrow:  :arrow:  :arrow:

LOK-GOIL-head
lok...silent G...OIL-on ya forhead
lockie-yahead...with a silent petrochemical works :?:

Apart from that what does it mean :?:  as page 483 of my Oxford Concise confirms that a GOIL does not exist  :nose ....[but then again thats probably only for Australian GOIL's]..... :?:   :  ..... Derek :music

[AlistairD]

Lochgoilhead is the village at the head of Loch  Goil and is pronoiunced as it is written
 Â 
 Alistair
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    derekwarner_decoy (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:53    AM
   Subject: RE: CSAY
   

   
Hi PD's ......a bit quiet on the pages so ......as    Alistair said....

mainly sailing to    Lochgoilhead

Was this something to do all    those years ago which would have been a little wippersnapper called Sandy now from ACS as    thats his NECK o' the woods... but how do we pronounce it

LOK-GOIL-head
lok...silent G...OIL-on ya    forhead
lockie-yahead...with a silent petrochemical works

Apart from that what does it mean as page 483 of my Oxford Concise confirms that a GOIL does not exist        ....[but then again thats probably only for Australian GOIL's]..... ..... Derek



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[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's - but Alistair , was only my Irish convict humour when postings on PD's were so quiet.................but anyway... I'll be up @ 0500 in the morrow  :computer   - Derek

[AlistairD]

Here's one of the workhorses on the Clyde fleet,  BENMORE at the Broomielaw. The Brromielaw was the traditional berth on the River  Clyde in the centre of Glasgow, which had been used for sailings to the Firth of  Clyde since long before steam navigation, and was used until the berth moved to  the south side of the river, known as Bridge Wharf, in 1929, following the  opening of the King George V bridge across the river downstream of Central  Station Railway Bridge.
 BENMORE was built in 1876 by T B Seath of Rutherglen with  single cylinder diagonal machinery by W King & Co for Captain Robert  Campbell for the service from Glasgow and Greenock to Kilmun. In 1885 she was  taken over by Captain William Buchanan, and moved to the Glasgow to Rothesay  service in 1886. In the following year she was reboilered and ran with two  funnels, but the following year was back to one funnel. In 1891 she was sold to  Captain John Williamson, and remained on the Glasgow to Rothesay service, but  was now based at Rothesay. From 1916 to 1920 she was chartered to the Caledonian  Steam packet Co, whose steamers had all been taken over for was service, and  were being reconditioned. She returned to the Glasgow to Rothesay service and  was sold for breaking up in October 1923
 Â 
 Alistair

[Waverley]

Hi all

I feel a irresistable urge to join in this thread.....

Here is something from an earlier time, but returning to "dark Loch Goil" - and with an Australian connection.

The vessel is BREADALBANE - built for the Loch Goil and Loch Long Steamboat Company in 1847.  Regular service to Lochgoilhead had started on 1814 (only 2 years after COMET), the company was formed in 1825 and at the time of BREADALBANE's launch was thriving.  The service (which carried mails) ran all year round (except when she was off for overhaul) and in the 1849/50 winter is recorded as departing Glsagow daily (not Sundays of course - this is Scotland!) at 08:30 for a number of piers and ferry calls en route to Lochgoilhead, returning the same aftrnoon. In summer, Arrochar at the head of Loch Long also featured in the timetable.

One of the reasons for the comany's prosperity was that it provided a link in the "best" route to Invereray - seat of the Duke of Argyll (head of Clan Campbell) and in those days a major force in politics - thus generating plenty of well-heeled traffic for Inveraray.   From Lochgoilhead, passengers were conveyed 8 miles by coach through the beautiful Hell's Glen to St Catherine's on Loch Fyne and finished the journey in a tiny paddler named ARGYLL.

The alternative route was by the Castle Company's cargo boat - a leisurely journey which took all day.


The illustration comes from James Williamson's "Clyde Passenger Steamers" - she has the "Loch Goil funnel" - red base, two while bands separated by a black band and black top. The observant may notice that this is the same as that borne by "LORD OF THE ISLES" in Alistair's earlier post - the manager of the Loch Goil company also managed the Glasgow and Inveraray Steamboat Company when that was first established - later the two companies merged, suffered badly from competition from railway boats and turbines and eventually sold out to a combination of Turbine Steamers (which got the two remaining ships) and MacBraynes who appear to have a acquired the goodwill of the Lochgoilhead trade.


MacBraynes continued to operate a mail service till October 1946 (latterly with a small motor vessel) and when it closed it was generally reckoned to be the longest-operated service of its kind.

All three of the railway companies ran excursions to Lochgoilhead at times (thus depriving the Loch Goil company of the most lucrative traffic) - even the Ayr based steamer would make occasional visits.  After World War One, however the daily excursion was left to the North British Railway (later LNER) from Craigendoran, usually with the 1899 WAVERLEY.

And this was why the current WAVERLEY was built - for the Lochgoilhead and Arrochar cruise - initially six days a week, but down to two by the middle 1950's.  Lochgoihead pier closed in 1965 and from then till 1972 when Arrochar also closed, WAVERLEY continued to sail to the head of Loch Goil on both her outward and inward journeys.

My father owned a holiday cottage near Lochgoilhead from 1959 and the 4 visits each week by WAVERLEY (or JEANIE DEANS every second week 1961 - 1964) were highlights (we didn't often sail there as we needed the car). Loch Goil is incredibly beautiful and in those days was also very peaceful - an ideal place for sailing and hill walking - I was back there last summer and the village is surprisingly unchanged - all that was missing was the pier and the paddler.


As for BREADALBANE - in 1853 she was sold to Australia, replaced by a new vessel LOCH GOIL (Tom Mead in his Manly ferries book gives 1856 but I'll stick with the Scottish experts).   Tom Mead also says she worked first at Melbourne, then Brisbane and started on the Manly ferry in December 1862, remaining there till scrapped in 1882.

[Roderick Smith]

It wasn't mentioned by Fitchett, but was mentioned by Loney (with no photo).
PS Breadalbane entered the Port Phillip Bay trade in 1854, part of a fleet connecting Melbourne and Geelong (the colony's largest two cities, then and now).  This is consistent with sale in Scotland in 1853.  I don't know which dock it used in Melbourne, but in Sept.1854, Australia's first steam-worked railway was opened: from the city centre of Melbourne (Flinders St station) to Sandridge [Port Melbourne].  Loney hints that Breadalbane was withdrawn in 1855 or 56 (superseded by another vessel).  It must have gone to Brisbane then, giving rise to the 1856 reference.  In mid 1857, the Geelong - Melbourne railway was opened, to a temporary terminus at the Yarra mouth.  The connection to Melbourne would be by ferry: either up the Yarra (circuitous and with sand or mud bars, so unlikely) or to Sandridge and then railway (reliable, but adding to cost).  Within months, the line connected to the new government line to Williamstown, so the connection was probably by ferry to Sandridge, then train.  In 1859, the line was connected through to the city centre (Batmans Hill / Spencer St station) with the opening of Saltwater [Maribyrnong] River bridge.  Even so, bay shipping was able to compete with the railway for many more years.  In June, there are major celebrations for the 150th anniversary of Geelong & Melbourne Railway Co.'s line.  The line was sold to the government only a few years after opening.
I haven't a reference available to track Breadalbane in Brisbane, and the Sydney reference has already been cited.

Many places in Australia were named after towns and locations in Scotland.  Breadalbane is a small hamlet west of Goulburn, on the main Sydney - Melbourne railway.  It is famous because it is one of the few straight and fast sections in the whole ~640 km from Sydney to Albury; there are many stories of steam trains travelling at well above the authorised 115 km/h there.  It was one of the few places where the overhyped XPT of the 1980s could reach its advertised 160 km/h maximum speed.

I am using my 1923 pregrouping rail atlas to understand these CSAY postings.
It has ferry routes run by North British, by Glasgow & South Western, by Caledonian and by NB & Cal. jointly.  The three railways also carved up the territory along the shores.
* G&SW scored Ardrossan and Largs, and snuck into Cal. territory to reach Princes Pier (not quite as far as Gourock).
* Cal. got most of the south bank, continuing to Wemyss Bay.  It also got quite a chunk of the north bank, and Balloch (for Loch Lomond).
* NB got most of the north bank, and followed Loch Gare on its route further north.  It also got a circuitous route into Balloch.

I have traversed all of the surviving lines, and seen many of the piers.  Most of my ferry riding has been further north, with CalMac (I have been to Kyle of Lochalsh, Skye, Mallaig, Fort William, bus alongside Caledonian Canal and Oban).
In Apr.-May 06 I rode from Wemyss Bay to Rothesay, and from Gourock to Helensburgh (but not on elegant Clyde paddlesteamers).
I can see a seed planted that I must reach Lochgoilhead by some means on my next tour of Scotland.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[Waverley]

Hi Roderick

We really will have to try and organise a map of the Clyde.

To briefly summarise the railway piers

North British - Craigendoran (earlier Helensburgh)

Glasgow & South Western -  Greenock Princes Pier
           Fairlie
           Ardrossan (Winton Pier)
           Ayr (summer excursions only)

Caledonian - Gourock (earlier Greenock Customhouse Quay)
           Wemyss Bay
           Ardrossan (Montgomerie Pier)

(Largs station is some way from the pier and was not normally used for train connections)

The only joint operation was Caley / NBR on Loch Lomond.

The prime destination, served by all three railways was Rothesay via Dunoon (so the Caley ran trains, but not steamers on the North bank of the Clyde). Competition was intense and racing the norm. The main business trains left all three Glasgow termini at about 16:00 - and all three had steamer connections for Rothesay (and the Caley had another one via Wemyss Bay). All three steamers were due at Rothesay (and the intermediate piers) at about the same time ........ a fast boat was a successful boat - the Caley had the shortest route, so the Sou West and NBR boats had to be faster.   It must have been great fun.

From Ardrossan both companies ran to Arran (to Brodick and then down the coast to Whiting Bay) - the Sou West with GLEN SANNOX and the Caley with the slower DUCHESS OF HAMILTON and later the faster turbine DUCHESS OF ARGYLL - again the two ships were scheduled with almost identical sailing times - the two Ardrossan piers are IIRC about 200 yards apart, and bumps in the harbour were not uncommon.

The Sou West and Caley both served Millport (Cumbrae) from Fairlie and Wemyss Bay respectively.


All three companies served the Holy Loch - this is the small loch just north of Dunoon where the main pier is Kilmun - and all three companies provided a connecting steamer off their 16:00 train from Glasgow.

Only the NBR served the Gare Loch - for many years this was LUCY ASHTON, which also provided a cross firth ferry service to Greenock.

All three railway companies also provided summer only excursion sailings as well as the all the year round ferry services - the NBR and Sou West (and occasionally the Caley) both ran to Lochgoilhead and Arrochar, the Caley and Sou West competed vigorously from the upper firth to Arran via the Kyles of Bute while the Sou West usually had Ayr to itself.
Many other cruises were offered, and evening cruises were popular.

There were also the private operators. The Loch Goil and Loch Fyne companies have been discussed up thread and Campbeltown had its own steamers.   MacBraynes ran the mail service to Ardrishaig (Loch Fyne) with IONA and COLUMBA.   Captain Buchanan's steamers ran all the way from Glasgow to Rothesay while John Williamson's steamers (including BENMORE above) provided a cargo/pasesnger service from Rothesay to Glasgow as his father (Captain Alex) had done before him.  (Captain Alex had also ran his "Turkish fleet" - SULTAN, SULTANA and VICEROY in conjunction with the Glasgow and South Western before they founded their own fleet - which they did by buying out Captain Alex (senior) and employing his son Captain Alex (junior) as their new manager).

Captain John Williamson (who was Alex's younger brother) also became manager of the Turbine steamer syndicate whose "New fangled" turbines ran to Campbeltown and Inveraray from 1901 onwards.    And eldest brother James was manager of the Caley.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer.

BTW if you use public transport to get to Lochgoilhead you'll have to get the bus - it connects with the train at Arrochar and Tarbet.   Very scenic ride but not the same as going by sea.


Regards

David

[Waverley]

Let's see if this works

We seem to have most of the Clyde here - Ardrossan is further south on the mainland (to the east), and Ayr further south again, the island in the centre containing Lochranza is Arran and Campbeltown is south on the mainland to the west.

David

[Roderick Smith]

I scanned the relevant page from British Railways pregrouping atlas and gazetteer, fifth ed. Ian Allen 1972 Isbn 07110 0320 3.
I removed as much extraneous detail as I could.
I enclose the small version (800 pixel height).
The larger is ~1580 pixel height.
If the small is unreadable, I will try to place the large in a file section, or add it here: the software will show it as a large file, available for downloading.

The inset of Kintyre fits at the southern tip of Kintyre Peninsula, to the left of the map.  Mull of Kintyre is a bald hill at the tip, and was the source of a Paul McCartney 1970s song (I have a folksong-style version on cd, sung by a Russian group); it was also the spot which inspired the name of Hans Scotfriend's beautful model paddlesteamer (eastern Switzerland).

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[Waverley]

Hi Roderick and all

Looks like we were both doing the same thing at the same time.

I couldn't find my own Ian Allan map last night, but I had forgotten (or never noticed) how inaccurate the steamer routing information is.

It looks as if the compiler has looked at the relevant timetable and assumed that any steamer advertised from, say, Gourock is automatically a Caley service.   That is not the case as the railways were quite happy to advertise non-competitive servces by the private operators which collected passengers from the railway piers (and who had travelled by train to catch their ship).

Its a bit difficult to generalise as services changed over the years, and were much reduced after 1914, but some of the more obvious errors include

In 1923, no North British steamer went further than Rothesay. The NB routes to Arran and Inveraray did not and never did exist. In 1902 and from 1924 onwards they ran a single sailing through to Tighnabruaich. At the turn of the century, and from 1932 to 1937 by JEANIE DEANS an extensive range of cruises in the outer firth was offered.   They also offered a Round Bute cruise from about 1900 to 1914.

The service to Inveraray shown as Caledonian Railway were actually provided by Williamson Buchanan, a merger of the two old family firms including Turbine Steamers.

The service to Lochranza and Campbeltown shown as Caledonian is actually that provided by the "Campbeltown Company" - the old established (1826) local firm/    There was also a turbine sailing which picked up at the various up-firth piers (Greenock, Dunoon, Wemyss Bay probably, Fairlie) before heading for Lochranza.

Post 1918, all Ardrossan Arran services were provided by the South Western, although calling at both railway piers in Ardrossan. The map reflects pre-war days in this instance - at times the Caley ran direct from Ardrossan to Whiting Bay.

Post war, Lochgoilhead and Arrochar were served by the NB only.

The map shows a Greenock Princes Pier - Craigendoran service - tbis was NB and not Sou West.

The Caley Wemyss Bay Millport steamer is shown as calling at Fairlie : their may have been one or two calls in the roster but it was not a normal feature of the route.

Post war, the Holy Loch (Kilmun) was served by Caley and NB only. Pre war their was a Caley boat running all day to Gourock, and a Sou West boat running all day to Greenock.



The number of steamers in service on the Clyde after 1919 was considerably lower than in 1914.   War losses had not helped, but the economics of the time meant the end of many competitive services (such as the Holy Loch above) , much greater co-operation between the companies and the pruning of unrenumerative routes.  The Caley fleet, for example was reduced from 8 to 5 ships.    The impact on  the travelling public  of these service reductions was probably negligible, as all the piers (with one "freak" exception - Portincross) remained open, except that many journeys were now a bit slower.

[Eddy Matthews]

It's great to see that Alistairs thread on the Clyde paddlers is starting to gain momentum - Thanks to eveyone who has contributed!

The Clyde paddlers ended up in almost every corner of the globe over the years, so there is a wealth of history to dig into, and members from almost every country should be able to relate to these boats in one way or another.

Keep up the great work guys - I await each post with baited breath....

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's ..... &   how could I forget,,,,,, or forgot...... :bow PS Decoy was built    by Hendersons..........  :music    - Derek

[Roderick Smith]

David's devotion is noted: consecutive posts at 3.30 and 8.30, but apparently not quite an all-night session.

There are many interlocking issues here.
I am surprised that the Caley didn't win the fight for Rothesay traffic hands down: it had the best terminal, and the shortest crossing (important for speed, and for stomachs when the weather cut rough).  An express train with a direct connection should have thrashed the opposition.

The station is still magnificent today: a superb example of Victorian engineering & architecture.  Particularly important is the lengthy covered walkway from the station concourse to the ferry gates.  Alistair stated that the weather is generally good, but the Caley directors thought otherwise.  The walkway is still maintained well.  I thought that I had photographed it, but I hadn't.  Hence, today's photo shows a StrathClyde train at the terminus which is today's sole access to Rothesay (Isle of Bute).  I grabbed it just after phoning Alistair at his shop to announce that I wouldn't be getting to Paisley that morning: I was connecting at the junction to Gourock to connect with one of the very few private ferries for the day to Helensburgh via somewhere.  In contrast, Gourock station today is the equivalent of a bus stop, built in the remains of a formerly-grand terminus.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
'I belong to Glasgow...'
Actually, I don't: my great great grandfather was a Gillespie from a croft outside Inverness, which I believe makes me a Macpherson.  My mother headed to visit the ancestral site 10 years ago, and something went wrong with the group tour that day and she didn't get there.  Now she is too frail to make the journey again.