Ugliest rail ferry ever?

[Walter Snowdon]

You will love this Eddy! Found a site with two photos of a model rail ferry SS LANSDOWNE (looks like a shipyard model). Have not had time to research it yet. She is a large sidewheeler, 4 funnels. Model is 128th scale 32 inches long. Go To:

   www.fiddlersgreenmodelships.com  

 Scroll down models and there she is!  Regards, walter.

[Eddy Matthews]

Ugly?? Never!

Practical and workmanlike perhaps, but NOT ugly!

Actually I've seen the Lansdowne before, but haven't been able to find any drawings of her...

[PJ]

This model looks like Landsdowne, one of  the Canadian National Railway Ferries operating on the Detroit River. She  sunk at her mooring not long ago with a load of antique railway  cars.
 Â 
 Info from
 http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11009
 Â 
 The paddle-wheeled steamer, the Lansdowne, was built as a railroad car  ferry in 1884 at the Wyandotte shipyards. It is a unique ship with quite a bit  of history itself. At 312 feet, it was the longest ship on the Great Lakes,  carrying passenger trains across the Detroit River and at the time of its  retirement in 1956, it was one of the oldest vessels still operating on the  Lakes. In the 1980's, it inherited the skytops and a new, albeit short-lived  life as a floating restaurant off downtown Detroit. Regretfully, all that  remained of the ship is its hull and skeletal remains of its iron deckwork.  Specialty Restaurants, home to several unique view restaurants, had hoped to  restore the floating vessel and skytops as a fine restaurant. Unfortunately,  initial construction revealed several obstacles that proved to be financially  prohibitive.
 Â 
 More information in GREAT  LAKES CAR FERRIES, George Hilton's 1962 book.
 Â 
 Why would you refer to her as "the ugliest Rail  Ferry ever?" She hardly merits that and if you read Hilton's book you'll see  they are very interesting ships and not in the least bit ugly.
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    Walter Snowdon (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 12:51    PM
   Subject: Ugliest rail ferry ever?
   

   
You will love this Eddy! Found a site with two photos    of a model rail ferry SS LANSDOWNE (looks like a shipyard model). Have not had    time to research it yet. She is a large sidewheeler, 4 funnels. Model is 128th    scale 32 inches long. Go To:

www.fiddlersgreenmodelships.com

Scroll down models    and there she is! Regards, walter.



-------------------- m2f    --------------------

Exported by Paddleducks Mail System.

http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10754#10754

--------------------    m2f --------------------

[Bierjunge]

Btw, the Lansdowne was already mentioned with a few links and sources
in the RoRo Ferry thread
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2601

> The paddle-wheeled steamer, the Lansdowne, was built as a railroad
> car  ferry in 1884 at the Wyandotte shipyards.

She was the first ship designed by the famous naval architect
Frank E. Kirby. By the way, she inherited the (two independently acting,
horizontal single cylinder) engines from the 1872 wooden ferry Michigan.

> It is a unique ship with quite a bit  of history itself. At 312 feet, it was
> the longest ship on the Great Lakes,  carrying passenger trains across
> the Detroit River and at the time of its  retirement in 1956, it was one
> of the oldest vessels still operating on the  Lakes.

No retirement in 1956! The Canadian National continued to use her as
winter boat on the Detroit-Windsor crossing due to her ability to churn
the slips free from ice. She operated on her own power up to 1970(!),
when she blew a cylinder head.

Some more records:
By her engine damage in 1970, she was
- the last surviving sidewheeler on the great lakes, and one of the
  last in the USA
- the oldest active ship on the great lakes,
- providing the longest continuous ferry service world wide
  (almost 90 years)
- carrying the oldest reciprocating steam engines used in regular
  US transportation (almost 100 years old).
- One of the very few ships carrying 3, 4 or 2 smoke stacks during
  various phases of her life (almost like the famous Sphinx' riddle...)
Today, her hulk continues to be the last sidewheeler and the last
ship with iron hull on the lakes.

> Why would you refer to her as "the ugliest Rail  Ferry ever?"
> She hardly merits that and if you read Hilton's book you'll see  
> they are very interesting ships and not in the least bit ugly.

Indeed. In fact, the SS Lansdowne is the very ship I am currently
preparing to model in H0 scale. Btw, the Smithsonian Institute
http://americanhistory.si.edu/csr/shipplan.htm sells a set of 5 plans
of her (hull, lines, deck, cabin, details, engines) in 1/8" scale
(provided by George W. Hilton) for $10 for each sheet.
I am currently waiting for set of plans, so I can't tell more.

The Dossin great lakes museum on Belle Isle, Detroit, has a 1/8" model
of her as well, which is unfortunately currently not on display, but
could be from March on (according to their courator).

Regards, Moritz

[Bill Worden]

As I am probably the only member of this list to have crossed the Detroit River on Lansdowne when she was in steam, I have to make some comments and corrections.

Ugly?  Certainly not! Lansdowne was no sleek passenger steamer, certainly, but in action she had that majestic, broad-shouldered Victorian industrial magnificence that characterizes so many practical engineering works of the time.

She was not Frank E. Kirby's first design; that "official" status belongs to the composite-hulled passenger steamer City of Detroit of 1878.   As Kirby's father was part-owner of the shipyard and had built other steamers in previous years when in business elsewhere, there is at least the possibility that the son had a hand in ship design earlier than the documented 1878. In addition, Kirby's work on Lansdowne was somewhat limited as she inherited not only the engines but also the cabins of Michigan

She carried all sorts of railway cars (or carriages...) not only passenger.  Locomotives were only very rarely carried, as safely loading that much weight in a single unit was very difficult.

She was not in 1970 and is not today the last paddle steamer on the Great Lakes, as the Toronto ferry Trillium was very much in existence in 1970 and, of course, was later rebuilt and restored to service.  Trillium remains active at Toronto.

Her running mate Huron was a twin-screw steamer built in 1875, with a pair of single-cylinder non-condensing engines in a V formation.  Huron still exists sunk in a slip in Detroit.  One suspects that hers were the oldest operational reciprocating steam engines in America until the railroad began pushing the steamers as barges.  

Within my memory the two steamers never operated together.  Lansdowne operated most of the year, and always in winter, while Huron took over for a period every summer while Lansdowne was maintained.  Lansdowne's big fixed-bucket radial wheels were very effective in winter ice, especially as they very efficiently sucked ice out of her landing slips, saving much waterline damage to the many pilings forming a "U" shape into which her bow fit.

One entry implies that she was not completed and operated as a restaurant by Specialty Restaurants.  That is not accurate; she operated as a restaurant on the Detroit waterfront for some years.  All superstructure from the main deck up was replaced with a restaurant structure approximating her original appearance, and two observation passenger cars were installed aft and use as a bar. Two of her smokestacks were replaced as dummies using some sort of culvert material with spiral ribs! Only one of the big western-river type engines survived the conversion, and that one not complete.  Everything in the hull was cleared out, including the watertight bulkheads, in order to make function rooms.  Internal finish in the hull was so thorough, and the lack of watertight integrity so complete, that when she began to leak even small amounts of water, it was difficult or impossible to find the leak behind the finish, and, of course, the water spread throughout the hull.  She was kept floating with pumps for some years.  Her recent sinking was really no surprise.

I note in recent photos that only the steel frame of the restaurant structure remains....

Hope this is of interest.

Bill Worden

[Eddy Matthews]

Fascinating Bill - it's always nice to hear a bit more on the history of some of these vessels.

Sad to hear that she sank after lasting as long as she did, but I have to say I'm surprised that the owners were allowed to remove all the watertight bulkheads when converting her to a restaurant - What would have happened if she'd sprung a major leak when the restaurant was full of people?

[Bill Worden]

When Lansdowne was converted to a restaurant, supervision passed from the vessel inspection services to the Buildings and Safety Engineering Department of the City of Detroit.  She had never, of course, been under the US Coast Guard, being a Canadian-flag vessel.  When she came into the US as a static vessel, the US Coast Guard required that she be firmly tethered to the shore (pilings in various places and chains were used) and on that condition gave up any supervision.

The building inspectors of the city government were, of course, far less sensitive to issues like watertight bulkheads.

The sort of leaks that develop over time would have been unlikely to be large enough  have caused a sudden problem, and, as I recall, she had automatic pumps even when open as a restaurant.  One wonders what might have happened had another ship opened her up in a collision while diners were aboard.

After she closed, but while still docked at the Detroit riverfront, there was concern in city government that is there was a power outage affecting her pumps, there might be a serious problem.

She has been raised, by the way, as noted in an earlier post concerning her.

[Bierjunge]

Bill,

> As I am probably the only member of this list to have crossed the
> Detroit River on Lansdowne when she was in steam,

Bill, thats's great! I had not dreamt of meeting an eye witness and even a
passenger via that forum! Could you please tell more about the circumstances?
When did you travel on the Lansdowne? I always had thought that at least
during her last active decades, she was freight only?
Did you by chance make any photographs?

> I have to make some comments and corrections.

I really appreciate your corrections!
The records and superlatives I had posted had only been collected from
various other articles and websites, and I found that especially in the US,
superlatives seem to be used quite frivolous and often without proof.
Although I would find it silly to insist on or to argue about such
superlatives, some questions on your remarks:

> She was not in 1970 and is not today the last paddle steamer on the
> Great Lakes, as the Toronto ferry Trillium was very much in existence
> in 1970 and, of course, was later rebuilt and restored to service.
> Trillium remains active at Toronto.

OK, my fault, at least regarding today's status.
But might not Lansdowne have been in 1970 the last _active_ paddle
steamer on the lakes, since Trillium was retired since the 50ies at that
time?

> Her running mate Huron was a twin-screw steamer built in 1875, with
> a pair of single-cylinder non-condensing engines in a V formation.
> Huron still exists sunk in a slip in Detroit. One suspects that hers were
> the oldest operational reciprocating steam engines in America until the
> railroad began pushing the steamers as barges.
 
But as you already stated, Lansdowne had inherited her engines from the
1873 paddler Michigan, so I though her engines had been older?
But again, there is little value arguing about such superlatives.

> Hope this is of interest.

Oh yes indeed, thank you again for your most valuable contribution!

Moritz

[Bill Worden]

It was possible to get permission from the Canadian
National to ride on Lansdowne if one had some valid
reason.  I was then assistant editor of "Telescope,"
the journal of the Great Lakes Maritime Institute, and
might also have been at that point one of the issue
editors of "Steamboat Bill" and that seemed to open
the door.  Several of us went, several times.

Certainly there are photos.  Gordon Bugbee, now
deceased, took more, as he was planning a set of
measured drawings.  I have a lot of Gordon's
materials, but whether I have the Lansdowne slides --
many of them in great detail -- I can't be sure. I
think I even have some early drawing of the restaurant
conversion as I was for a time one of the city's
representatives dealing with the first set of owners
who were converting her.  Specialty only got her after
the first set of partners went broke.

I think --can't be sure -- that Conrad Milster in New York has 16mm movies of her in action, including the
engines. I know he has her whistle.

Lansdowne was the only active paddle steamer on the
lakes at her retirement; you're quite correct when you
phrase it that way.  Trillium was moldering away in a
backwater at the Toronto Islands.  I was on her there,
as well.

And you've got me on the age of the engines... Bingo!

Bill Worden

[Bierjunge]

The Dossin great lakes museum on Belle Isle, Detroit, has a 1/8" model
of her as well, which is unfortunately currently not on display, but
could be from March on (according to their courator).

I've been there agin today, and indeed, her very detailed model is on display now. I have attached two photographs. What a grim looking beast full of character!

Moritz

[Eddy Matthews]

The Lansdowne looks fantastic Moritz - I can just see a model of thaton the water, complete with rolling stock. It would look magnificent!