Mississippi 1870 Build

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's ..... Richard

1) got to be your call with the sizing/positioning/arc of the rudders, but it is good to know that you have achieved an increase/improvement in such short time    
2) 16th Scale PS Adelaide.... :respect2 .. two motors & mixing   but Tony from NZ & I both went down the  :sob track where we found the MIXING to be more ROBOT like [a Sherman Tank]... other PD's may have had more recent & happier experiences
3) Kookaburra paddler on the Brisbane river... yes some 10 years ago Karina & I spent an evening... good food... great experience..... both PS Kooka's are diesel, but still good fun - Derek

[David Allinson]

Hi there.
Just a mad idea. I was wondering if you could hide a bow thruster across
the stern. Could be linked to the rudder electrics so that it would
produce a strong turning effort when the rudder control was operated.
Maybe could hide the inlet/outlets with very shallow scoop/louvres under
each side of the hull? I just thought that that way it maybe be less
intrusive than extra large rudders.
Turning both rudders at 90 degrees would I believe simply produce drag
rather than very much steering effort. If you turned one rudder at 90
degrees on the inside of the turn, while the other was at say 60 degrees,
I believe would help it round. Clever linkage needed, like on a car where
the inside wheel turns at a much greater angle than the outside wheel.
Good luck and let us know what the answer finally turns out to be.
All the best
David




Hi All

 I've been playing with the rudder shape and yep it makes an enormous
 difference even with just one rudder modified. The one in the pic is just
 a 'concept' version after talking about the best shape with a yachtie mate
 and it really does work well.

 Cutting it from clear polycarbonate on the CNC machine and painting just
 the original shape somewhat hides the extension. A folding extension is
 certainly another option. Any thoughts on what might be the best ideal
 shape and balance area in front of the pivot?

 Bottom line is steering is very fixable with a deeper rudder and is just a
 matter of deciding on the least obtrusive looking method. Working the
 angles more will also be another area to look at Derek. 90 degrees will
 take some doing but I'll see how much I can get.

 My next project will be a 16th scale PS Adelaide. 90 degree rudder travel
 should be easier to organize there and with a motor per wheel mixed
 electronically, steering I hope will not be such a problem.

 Hey Derek do you know any details of the 2 paddlers built for Expo 88 in
 Brisbane? They are the Kookaburra Queens I & II and now work as restaurant
  and tourist boats on the Brisbane river. I hope to get down and get to go
 on them early in the new year but would love to find some drawings of
 them. They have a beautiful hull shape and would make a fine pair of
 models.

 Richard>

 

Attachments:

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[towboatjoe]

Hi PD's - TBJ.... what is the typical arc of rudder movement for stern wheelers :?:- Derek

I think the most pitch I have seen on an old stern wheeler is about 75 to 80 degree.
Here's photos of the rudders on the Verity.

[Walter Snowdon]

A simple way to produce a thruster is to use a car windscreen washer pump and flexible pipes. A simple nipple type fitting on both sides of hull ,connect pipes and hey prest its finished. Use a servo opperated double microswitch and it sucks water from one side and squirts it out the other. Reverse sevo and it works the opposit way. Runs on 12 volt. One at the bow and one at the stern and you can turn on the spot. Alternatively use the fuel filler pumps that aeromodellers use. Regards, Walter.

[Bill Hudson]

Richard,

Your photos of your rudders tell the whole story.  They  are way too small for the boat. Most stern wheel rudders I have seen and those in drawings are much larger.  The top of the rudder nearly conturs to the paddle wheel with very little space between them. The front of the rudder also contours to the hull.  Towboat Joe gives a good example of a rudder profile. When you position your rudders think of them as thrusters.  

I was fortunate to be able to spend over an hour at the helm of the stern wheeler Columbia Goarge. She was fitted with threeregular rudders and three monkey rudders.   On a hard turn she could spin 180 degrees in place with the pilot house as a pivit point.  The captain explaind to me that it is not the movement of the rudders through the water that caused the boat to turn as with a prop boat but it is the movment of the water through the chute formed by the rudders that turns a stern wheeler.  The paddle wheel serves as a giant pump impeller.  The fun part was docking. The rudders were set opposite of each other. This formed a side thrust and the boat moved side ways to the dock.

Bill

[bundyrap]

Wow what great ideas there! Thanks everybody.

The way my rudders attach is via a brass pin so it is only a 30 second job to  swap rudders so first up I'll make bigger, closer contoured ones and see what that does. I'll also have a go at fitting a third rudder in there.

The monkey rudder idea makes an awful lot of sense creating in effect a tunneled thruster. The problem there will be making the bracket behind the wheel in aesthetic harmony with the rest of boat but no doubt it can be done. Am I right in thinking the main rudders and monkey rudders are controlled independently from each other for greater flexibility?

Hope to have a few pictures of the modifications by the weekend.

Richard

[Bill Hudson]

Wow what great ideas there! Thanks everybody.


The monkey rudder idea makes an awful lot of sense creating in effect a tunneled thruster. The problem there will be making the bracket behind the wheel in aesthetic harmony with the rest of boat but no doubt it can be done. Am I right in thinking the main rudders and monkey rudders are controlled independently from each other for greater flexibility?

Hope to have a few pictures of the modifications by the weekend.

Richard

Go to the photo gallery and look at the stern wheel picture of the Portland. You will see how the deck is wrapped around behind the wheel to accomodate the monkey rudders.  And yes the two different rudders are indipendent in controll.  On the Columbia Gorge the rudder controlls were hydraulic. both were leavers on the same mount. Rather than a ships wheel the main  rudders controll is tow handles on top of a stand.  The main is a longer handle and the monkey rudders is shorter and on top.

For general steering only the main rudder is used. For quicker manvers  or a strong curent both rudders are used. Full right with the main and full left with teh monkey and the boat wil move sideways.  Of course you have ot adjust the turns (engine speed) to a slow turn.

Bill

[towboatjoe]

On the work boats, like the Verity, Lady Lois, Major, etc, the steering rudders and monkey rudders are fixed together. Hence the reason they were called monkey rudders. "Monkey see monkey do"

In the photo is how I done the Verity. It has chain for steering cable so I found soldered link chain that has worked well for years. I used sheaves to build pulleys and ball & socket connectors used for airplane linkages as the connecting rods.

Here's a typical monkey setup. A rectangle with support brackets at each end. Pipe welded on for bearings and rudder shafts. Two rigid conduits from pulleys at each corner through back splash for steering cable to channel through. The cable connects to the steering rudders just like they do on the monkey rudders. All you need now is a connecting rod to go from one monkey rudder to the other.

[bundyrap]

Hi All

You guys sure do know your stuff :)

All I've done is increase the 2 existing rudders not in depth like before but backwards to follow the contours of the wheel and the resulting steering control now is brilliant. Although it will require a deal of butchery I think I will still fit monkey rudders as in TowBoat's pics just to see how much control is possible. Hopefuly I'll get a bit of time over Xmas to give this a go. Thanks again!

Work on the superstructue is still heading upwards. I've struct a few concerns here the biggest one being not enough 1.5mm x 5mm wood for all the top and bottom railings. What I plan to do here is take the oportunity and cut my own banisters with a less 'chunky' pattern and cut my own railings from thin ply on the CNC machine with a 1mm slot to accept the new banisters. I'll post some pics of this as work progresses.

Another question regards the top deck/roof railings. Decks 2 and 3 have railings 22mm high which is a scale 1100mm but the top deck is only 18mm which represents real life 900mm. Is there a reason for this lower railing on the top deck? To my eye it would look better if all the railings are the same height.

Richard

[Eddy Matthews]

My word, you've certainly been busy! It's really starting to look like a very nice model, and something to be extremely proud of.... I hope you'll soon be getting some photos of her on the water? I'd certainly like to see them.

[towboatjoe]

Two reasons for the railing being shorter on the Texas deck is to allow better visability for the pilot and to give a more balanced look overall to the boat. The shorter cabin with the windows just below the wheel house adds to the height of the hand railing, so with standard railing on the Texas deck they would look taller than normal and out of place.

[Bill Hudson]

Well Richard, I'm full of envy. Great job so far. The rudders look much better.  

I am confused about the stacks though. They look to only stop at the Texas deck.  I would think they would go on down to the engine room.

I really like the looks of that boat. makes me want to drop everything I'm working on and get started on the City of Eugene. All my model building, commissions and personal, will come to a halt today as I am going in to the hospital this morning to have surgery on my left hand. Once I recover from that, about six weeks, I go in again for the right hand. I doubt you will hear mucn from me for a while.


Bill

[bundyrap]

Here are some pics on the water. Still a tremendous amount of work to do or is that fun to be had building.  I know those stacks look funny just sitting there at the moment but when finished there is a planked 'elbow' under the deck leading inside.

I'm still a little confused reguarding these rail heights TowBoat. Am I right in thinking there is a difference between a Texas deck and a promenade deck? From your explaination which makes a lot of sense, I'm thinking my concern is with the railing height of the promenade deck which runs all the way round the top just below the Texas deck (which is the deck on the roof of the raised cabins?)  which on the design has no rail at all. If it were to have a rail, a shorter one like you say would look much better.

I've hooked up a belt drive just to see how it would work and I must admit I like it. Using the Pitman rods that came with the kit which have a small slot at one end to allow for small inaccuracies ( I'm guessing), I got slight jerkiness as the pins slid back and forth through the slots. With the belt there is none of this and with less friction there is a noticable increase in the amount of power available. I know this says more about my setup than the practicalities of working Pitman rods as Towboat has shown but for the moment I'm happy with a belt and a dummy rod. I will certainly revisit working rods in the future tho as per towboat's diagram.

I've also hooked up a sound system which plays a loop of calliope and Dixieland jass music. This is controlled via a spare servo,  a 12 volt 50 watt amp and a 200mm light weight car speaker. I wasn't sure how this would work but it really does work well. It adds another whole dimension so much that even my wife Patsy wanted a go at driving it! That is a real win!

Monkey rudders and a start on the railings is the plan for the next few days. I hope to post a video on PutFile.com if I can capture the atmosphere.

Have a great Christmas all
Richard

[bundyrap]

Hi All

My Mississippi had her first real day on the lake today with mixed results. If you want to attract a crowd this does the trick with people appearing from nowhere when it hit the water and the sound system started up. There is no doubt it looks and sounds good on the water.

The downside was when a gust of wind hit her, the loose ballast which was only trial fitted moved causing a dramatic list which resulted in the top decks/hatch coming off. The partly finished Al Khubar saved a swim and after a quick drying all is good again.

The obvious answer is to fix the ballast in place. My question is should this almost 2kg of lead be fixed along the center line of the keel or being a completly  flat bottom be spread out evenly?

The CNC machine did an excellent job of cutting railings from old reject ID cards. I also cut all the hand rails from 2 mm ply stained teak as these were missing in my kit. This is my only problem with what has been an excellent kit. It pays to be frugal with the other supplied wood as there is very little room for error but still just enough.

The monkey rudders work well in the confines of the pool but out on the open water the normal rudders work fine. Still I think I'll leave the monkeys on and tidy their linkages up.

Work now moves onto the finer details.

Richard

[David Allinson]

Richard
What a truly brilliant looking model. Your CNC machine really does the
business. No way could they be cut by hand! She looks really great when
upright on the water.
I really don't think that there is much to choose between the distribution
of the ballast either centrally along the bottom or spread evenly over the
bottom. I think that it really depends on where the framing is inside the
hull and keep it close to that (or on it) so as not to stress the skin
when handling out of the water.
One small comment. The monkey rudders look very efficient but a little
subject to damage when out of the water. I was wondering if a small skeg
fitted from the hull back to the bottom of the rudders would provide some
added strength. This would also provide some protection under the rudders
in front of the paddle wheel as they have quite long blades.
Congratulations on an absolutely brilliant job.
All the best
David A






 Hi All

 My Mississippi had her first real day on the lake today with mixed
 results. If you want to attract a crowd this does the trick with people
 appearing from nowhere when it hit the water and the sound system started
 up. There is no doubt it looks and sounds good on the water.

 The downside was when a gust of wind hit her, the loose ballast which was
 only trial fitted moved causing a dramatic list which resulted in the top
 decks/hatch coming off. The partly finished Al Khubar saved a swim and
 after a quick drying all is good again.

 The obvious answer is to fix the ballast in place. My question is should
 this almost 2kg of lead be fixed along the center line of the keel or
 being a completly  flat bottom be spread out evenly?

 The CNC machine did an excellent job of cutting railings from old reject
 ID cards. I also cut all the hand rails from 2 mm ply stained teak as
 these were missing in my kit. This is my only problem with what has been
 an excellent kit. It pays to be frugal with the other supplied wood as
 there is very little room for error but still just enough.

 The monkey rudders work well in the confines of the pool but out on the
 open water the normal rudders work fine. Still I think I'll leave the
 monkeys on and tidy their linkages up.

 Work now moves onto the finer details.

 Richard>

 

Attachments:

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