APAM- The Directors Cut!

[ljhall]

Hi Michael,

The Melbourne & Rothbury would have to be among those boats that have changed the least over recent years.
I first saw the Melbourne in 1988, and from what I can see she actually looks much the same almost 20 years later, the same goes for the Rothbury, with only minor changes being made, ie. the different Funnel and slightly different Paddle Box Lattices.
The Pointon Family certainly keep their fleet in good order, even since they purchased the Mundoo back in late 2000.
In many ways, their fleet is similar to Murray River Paddle Steamers, ie. Canberra, Pride of the Murray & Emmylou.

The Rothbury sure is fast, I remember the Paddleboat Race at Mildura in early 1990, I think the Rothbury won every single race of the day, and it actually became quite boring seeing the same vessel winning each race.

The race consisited of 6 boats:

PS Melbourne - (unfortunately steam proved no match for diesel that day)
PV Rothbury - (the consistent winner)
PV Avoca - (possibly still diesel/electric back then)
PV Coonawarra - (faster than I thought)
PV Murray River Queen - (surprisingly fast)
PV Impulse - (impressive performance)

Do you happen to know the brake horse power rating of the Rothbury' Gardiner Diesel Engine, I'm thinking that it must be over 150 b.h.p. because the Pride of the Murray has a 135 b.h.p. Perkins Diesel, and she is of similar dimensions ie. just over 82 ft. long, (although the Rothbury would be heavier.)
Also, I'm not sure of the top cruising speed of the Rothbury - any ideas ?

I have seen the Pride cruising at a good pace, I'm guessing up to 12 or 14 knots, but I have heard that the Adelaide once reached 18 knots, although I think this was a good number of years ago, she is an old lady now and the river has more speed limits these days, - any idea of her current top speed ?
I've seen a photo of the Adelaide at full speed, and you can tell by the wash and the amount of water that was being broken at the Bow, the water was covering the plimsal line and was at least half way up the Stem Post.
The photo was taken about mid/late 80's because there were signs on the Paddle Box Lattices, and these were removed sometime in 1988.

It would be great to say that the fastest boat on the Murray was a 'Steamer', instead of a Diesel Paddle Boat, in many cases the old steam engines probaby can't keep up with the modern diesels which may have more power, but they don't seem to have quite the level of torque that the steam engines have.
Dave Fitton once told me that it takes at least a 10 b.h.p. Diesel to do the same work as a 1 n.h.p. Steam Engine - do you agree with this ?

Some of the diesels - yeah they may be faster, but they have too many parts, can break down more often - sometimes with no clue as to where the problem lies, and they lack character.
A diesel engine doesn't 'breathe' like a steam engine does and you don't have the same amount of vibration on a Steamer as you would with a Diesel Powered Vessel.

I was last on the Pride about 4 years ago, and although the machinery may have been up-graded since then, she had a very pronounced 'shudder', particularly when put into reverse, also the transmission was playing up and the forward gear jammed, she could only reverse, and one day I actually saw the Pride drift backwards into the MV Mary Ann, doing minor damage to the edge of the roof of the lower deck.
All else aside though, once you step aboard 'the Pride', you are constantly reminded that she is diesel, with the vibrations, smell of diesel and all that space !
Actually, I heard that she is Diesel/Electric now - is that right ?

OK, better finish up here as I've just realised the time, it's getting late !

Thanks again,

[Roderick Smith]

I have brought two Rothbury photos out of the APAM Lop P&M thread (page 6) to this one.

It is the fastest paddle vessel on the river, having won every Signal Point race since the inception of the series.

In one enclosed photo, it has made a special public cruise downriver to Mildara winery to meet the Randell Cadell fleet coming upriver.  There was a lengthy lunchstop, with traditional colonial Australian fare (prepared by Captain Leon Wagner's catering company; Leon is the leader of the PS Ruby restoration project).
Rothbury was also part of the Mildura fleet forming a guard of honour in the river as the Queen's Baton relay passed over George Chaffey Bridge at the start of 2006.

Mildura: PS Rothbury while still a working boat (timber transport).  Mon.5.9.66.  (Neil Smith)
Wentworth - Mildura: PV Rothbury at the Randell-Cadell lunch stop at Mildara Winery.  Sat.6.9.03.  (Roderick Smith)

With a displacement hull, there is a limit to speed.  Applying any more power simply results in the screw cavitating.  Is this true also for paddlesteamer?  Is there a hull speed, and would overpowering simply result in cavitating the paddles?  Could a paddlesteamer be powered to plane, and haul waterskiers in Echuca's famous Southern 80 event?

Answering Leith: AFAIK Avoca went from diesel electric to diesel hydraulic in 1978, when it was transferred from Murray Bridge to Mildura.
We did talk about Pride's transmission last week, but I can't recall the date or reasons for the change.  Michael should be able to answer that question.

Steam is romantic, and part of authentic river history, but it is impractical for extended voyaging: the work, and the depletion of available firewood.  There is a further aspect now: there is a shortage of qualified engineers.  The same few people are shared over various heritage vessels, so they couldn't all steam on the same day.  I have seen four younger people undertaking training, but none is up to the hours yet to be qualifield to run a commercial vessel, and perhaps only two have the experience to run all aspects of a private vessel (fire, water and lubrication), where a formal qualification is not required.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[ljhall]

Hi Roderick,

Thanks again, yes I didn't think of the labour and fire wood shortage !
Although I have heard that many of the Echuca Shipwrights are often down in SA working on the Oscar 'W', Marion, Akuna Amphibious & Industry etc.
I also read an article in the Riv. Herald recently that concerned State Forests and the removal of timber from these areas.
The Commercial Steam Powered Fleet on the Murray is about a dozen I think:

PS Cumberoona - (Half the year - if that)
PS Canberra - (Daily)
PS Emmylou - (Daily)
PS Hero - (Still yet to operate commercially)
PS Pevensey - (A few days per week)
PS Adelaide - (A few days per week)
PS Alexander Arbuthnot - (A few days per week)
PS Melbourne - (Daily)
PS Ruby - (Still waiting on Survey)
PS Industry - (About once a month)
PS Marion - (Not sure on how regularly the Marion operates)
PS Oscar 'W' - (Currently out of Survey)

Plus many more Private Vessels which are not operating every day.

Anyhow, I heard that some of these boats run on well seasoned offcuts - Old Railway Sleepers, Fence Posts and Grape Vine Trellises and the like.
Not sure on how much timber is left out there ! - any ideas ?


Thanks,

[michael]

Hey Leigh, I reckon Melbourne and Rothbury are in better condition than Echuca boats. One of the captains says when he cleans Rothbury's bilge he just uses a vacuum as she's that good, Melbourne is currently up on the slip undergoing general maintenance.
I like the photo in Peter Plowmans book of PS Melbourne, PV Rothbury, Avoca, Coonawarra and Wanera cruising together. Altho I don't think it was for a race.
Not sure on Rothbury's power and I've never seen her flatout so couldn't tell you a speed.
I know if you opened Adelaides engines right up you will eventually sink her because her bow starts to go lower and the break rises!
IT would be good to send a few Echuca boats down for a race, I no Adelaide or even Hero would be a good rival. Even Pevensey moves along at a speed when opened up, altho you need the right crew as most of them won't do it, and its great to hear her exhust and her new gears humm.
There have been a few boats races in the Echuca area altho local politics and OHS have stopped it from happening:PS Emmylou vs Pevensey, PS Etona vs Enterprise, PS Adelaide vs Emmylou vs Etona, PS Adelaide vs Emmylou, PV Colonial Lass vs Lady of Barmah, and some for just fun... PS Emmylou vs Ranger, Billy Tea vs James Maiden, Billy Tea vs Ranger.
Perricoota has also done one of the quickest trips to Barmah when arriving the 'big end' was glowing!!
Pride was converted from diesel to diesel generator and an electric motor on each wheel, giving it independent drive, thats why she is always doing donuts! At the same time the rebuilt her upper deck.
I never went on her when she was just diesel so can't say whether the new engines are better but they are alot quieter for sure.

[michael]

PS Daisy was built 1896 at Echuca timber hull and framing measuring 15.5m long and 3.5m wide. She was powered by a single cyl steam engine 5hp. Not much is known of the boat but photo's show of her up the Darling River loaded with wool bales also with a barge of wool. She was later used as a houseboat and eventually sank below Red Cliffs (Mildura).
Her boiler and engine were abandoned on the river bank, will attach photo later.
She was refloated in the 1990's and moved to a local marina.
She had a new keel fitted couple of years ago and now work has begun on the flooring of the hull. A boiler has been aquired and the steam engine from PS Fairy will be restored and fitted.

[ljhall]

Thanks Michael,

It's good to see the odd 'salvage' photo here and there, it sounds as if they have done more to the Daisy than I thought !
Is she owned by the Rivers & Riverboat, Historical & Steam Preservation Society like the Success ?

It's unusual that the Melbourne & Rothbury seem to be in better condition than the Echuca boats, maybe they are slipped/maintained more often, or could it be a difference in the water quality ? -
I know that in Rich River Country - the water is full of Tanins because of the overhanging Red Gums.
Visually, the water does look a bit cleaner at Mildura, but good old Echuca still has more character !
I'm also thinking that the Hulls of the Diesel powered vessels may be kept cleaner because there are no blow-down valves, only bildge water and exhaust pipes - which reminds me - where is the exhaust located on the Pride, the funnel was scrapped in 2005 when she had the re-furb done, and she kind of looks funny without one.

The planks seem to get stained near the blow-down valves, the good old Tanblend Powder works pretty well but there is still a lot of muck in the water.

Up here in Bris Vegas - as we call it, we have my favourite Steam Tug, the 'Forceful' built in 1925, and still largely original, she is owned by the QLD Maritime Museum, and is currently awaiting major works on her Iron Hull, which has had that much sand blasting done to it over the years, they have worn it very thin in places. Basically the hull needs to be booked in for an 'Ultra-Sound' to try and determine exactly where, and how bad the damage is.
The Museum are looking for a considerable grant to get the work done, and they don't think that much will be happenning before the end of the year. The Forceful's steaming steaming season is from April through to Oct/Nov. as it's too bloody hot to steam her during summer, her boiler and engine room is a hot box even in the middle of winter.
Also on the Brisbane River, we have the 2 Kookaburra River Queens, (pictured in a previous thread.), they are 21 & 20 years old respectively, and are up for sale at present.
They are actually both wooden hulled, and despite their diesel engines, they really do have a character all of their own.
Unfortunately, they also need a lot of maintenance, the water is fairly corrosive as it's a tidal river ie. salty and this far north, the water temperature is just right for the invasive sea worm.
The harsh UV up here also takes its toll on the varnished Super-Structure/Railings etc. and Shipwrights are in short supply too.

My favourite of these 2 boats is the original - which is a side-wheeler, I have been on her a few times back in the late 1980's, including a BBQ trip out to an island beyond the river mouth.
The River Queen II - (the Sternwheeler) is a bit heavy at the stern end, and the Paddlewheel seems to create very little wash, even at full cruising speed.
They are built entirely out of QLD Timbers, are both 30.5 metres long and are powered by 200 b.h.p. Saab Scania Diesels.
From memory they cost a couple of million each to build.

Cheers,

[Excelsior]

I noticed it's been forever since anyone posted in this thread...  So I thought I'd get it going again by getting people's thoughts on this photo...

[Roderick Smith]

I found that this whole thread got to be too long and unweildy.  It is too hard to find specific boats in the middle of the thread, even with the search facility.  Since Sean has abandoned it, I have taken to separate threads per boat, with the direct link to the part of APAM where a photo of the boat may be found.

Is this a quiz photo where you know the answer, or a mystery one where you don't know the answer?
My first reaction was 'as fake as all those penis-enlargement ads which come in daily spam'.  The bow seems to be way too long for anything which I can recognise.  However, the clothing on the passengers hints at post 1960, not 1930s.  The smartly painted cabins look to be modern era, not authentic original.

Thoughts:
PS Kookaburra, which was vaguely upriver, and was long, but would have had more superstructure. No.
PS Ulonga: too much is wrong, including the wheelhouse.  No.
PS Murrumbidgee before conversion for overnight cruising: too much is wrong.  No.
PS Melbourne: too much is wrong.  No.
PS Pevensey: early port days (1970s), with the wheelhouse and bow doctored with Photoshop or equivalent.  My entry.

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[Excelsior]

Your first thought was quite right...  The pic is one posted on this forum by another member a while ago.  It was originally the Hero!  I've adjusted it to represent the Excelsior (I know, predictable).  I started manipulating it to see if I could make the Hero look a little better & then came the memory of Kevin Hutchinson saying that the two boats had very similar hulls, only the Ex was 25 feet longer.  So I got carried away.

The bow has been annoying me because I had it a bit shorter & when I turned the pic b&w I also put on a lens distortion which stretched the bow out.  I didn't notice until after posting the pic.  I'm also disatisfied with the job I did of changing the paddleboxes and some of the background (if you look closely the same trees appear several times).  The more I look at it however, the more I realise that the bow isn't that far out.  The real Ex had a very long foredeck, I'll post a pic from the SA library below.  It's probably a bit exagerated, but not by far.  I'll post the colour pic before the foredeck stretching as well.

Considering that I've only had 2 days experience with photoshop I'm relatively proud of my efforts (a little self congratulation is never a bad thing... I mean someone's gotta)!!!

[Excelsior]

Here's the pre b&w picture & a slightly earlier version as well.  I've also added one which is proportionally better to look at, but wrong to be the excelsior as the hull is too short...  and finally a novelty one which I call Muddy Murray - It's similar to a boat plan I've had in my head for a long while.  It's funny how when you shrink the Hero's hull down it looks almost exactly like the Adelaide's!

[Excelsior]

I've had a little too much time on my hands over the past few days...

[Excelsior]

.....

[Roderick Smith]

I had considered Hero, and rejected it on the paddleboxes (which was one aspect of rejecting Melbourne).  I should have got it on the deck seating.
I hadn't thought that you had tinkered the paddleboxes too.  That proves that you did a good job with your newly-acquired skill.

While you still have plenty of time, plonk PS Waverley into an Australian context.  There are lots of SA reaches still with 10 m depth, so perhaps against the famous cliffs upstream of Mannum?  Waverley beside Murray Princess?

In the railway hobby, UK railway enthusiasts were outraged.  During its stint in Australia for the bicentenary in 1988, Australians prepared a photo and item of the famous loco 'Flying Scotsman' converted from 1435 mm gauge to Victorian 1600 mm gauge.  It could never go home (but could go to Ireland).  It was published in a monthly magazine, which was then swamped with letters to the editor.

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[Roderick Smith]

The boat has entered commercial service, pitched at the wedding-charter market.
A full-time skipper has been lured from the Mildura area.
It was running a series of promotional morning/afternoon tea cruises through January & February.

The website is quite good: www.hero.net.au
Responding to a comment which I emailed, it now reads that overnight accommodation is for three couples in three cabins, each with a double bed.
In the early stages, it stated that accommodation was for six couples in three double beds, hinting at menage a quatre.
AFAIK most/all of the wedding photos on the website were of Hero's first major outing: the wedding of the owner's daughter.

I haven't yet had the chance for a cruise.

Perhaps 'Excelsior' could have named his multilength boat Accordion?  I await the version which will fit through Tauwitchere lock.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria

She was only a paddleboaters daughter, but she had 'em going round in circles.

[steve reynolds]

I'm a returning member (who had to re-register). I'm trying to find out what became of the Jupiter's engine(s) which were removed for sale to the Japanese as scrap metal, but they were in good running order and had come from the Lady Augusta.

Purpose built passenger ferries were used in Australia, but mainly in areas like Sydney Harbour, Port Phillip Bay (the third vessel Sean mentioned was the Weeroona), the Gippsland Lakes, the Hawkesbury & the Swan rivers.  In these areas, though, the day of the paddlesteamer was pretty short lived.  Australia progessed to screw propulsion fairly early.

On the Murray there were only a couple of purpose built passenger vessels.  Due to the river conditions, the lower population density & the large distance between towns (especially by river where the distance travelled was generally 2-3 times the distance by road), the Murray passenger boats were very different from those you would see on other systems.  The current Ruby & the Pearl of 1891 were both purpose built passenger steamers.

The only area on the Murray where there were services similar to what you'd see elsewhere was Lake Alexandrina.  Here there were vessels such as the Jupiter & Milang which operated ferry services.  Their deckhouses were very simple compared to other boats.  No upper deck & a lot of open space everywhere.  The Jupiter was converted to this role, but I think the Milang was built for it.  Although, other than the deckhousing, the Milang was similar to other boats in her hull & machinery.