Boilers

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's - I am very sorry to say that I think our ASC "Sandy Esquire" may have over looked a few potential scientific break thru's with the addition of  T1a & T1b as variables & MILLIONS of $ to the facilitators of this new important timley variable  :gather

So Sandy, if the original V1...P1...T1 "boyles & charles" = the combined gas thinge, then this could be gently minced by our modern day computers & we could revise the therom to the "boyles & charles & campbell & warner" LAW

From this I could probably retire in the SW of "frog land" like this  :vacat .... & watch PS Decoy just steam away in happiness   - Derek

[sandy_ACS]

:computer    

Hi PD's

Please consider the following: -

It is well accepted in scientific circles that the known universe we all, supposedly, live in; is a very constant place in which the natural order of things is non-changeable.
Any attempt to change this order will result in a catastrophic disaster of one sort or another, or even total annihilation.

After a brief discussion  :gather with my old mates, ‘Prof. Stephen Hawking’ and (by using a special version of the P1 V1 T1a+T1b formula) his old sidekick Dr. A. Einstein, regarding certain the validity of cerstain formula variables, it has been decided nee agreed, that ‘Australia’, or at least one part of it beginning with Wool…and ending in g, cannot, therefore, be part of this universe since the people there are able to CHANGE the ORDER of things to suit their own ends.

What started out as P1 V1 T1….now suddenly becomes V1 P1 T1, furthermore T1 is also changed to T1a+T1b, in a vain attempt to change the progression of TIME and be able to read it on a water clock, which would, I am sure you will all agree, create chaos in our universe.

A second hint at the ‘not of this universe’ comes in the form of an Irish oz, claiming to wish to retire to SW Frog Land and to watch a half built derelict Paddle steamer go floating by powered by steam, using a FROG for an engine.

Now I know that a certain Mr C. Darwin chose to ignore the altogether strange life forms in the land of oz, since they did not fit in with the Normal evolutionary path observed in the rest of the universe…perhaps he knew something he did not tell us about.
Lets face it guys, when you come face to face with hamsters the size of sheep (called Wombats in that universe) Ducks with 4 legs and fur (platypus) but no wings, and huge mice with springs for back legs and pockets in their fur coats (kangaroos), I suppose it is reasonable to project that the rest of the population could have evolved from amphibians, hence the FROG desire. No wonder Darwin went back to the Galapagos.

Finally, since this whole story began with a need/desire, on the part of this OZZIE IRISH FROG, to measure the content of a GAZ tank….I put it to you that a certain D Warner should just TALK to his boiler, cos all the hot air will be far better than a gas burner at heating it up…and do away with the GAZ thingies, hence saving the UNIVERSE from a fate worse than …..WHO KNOWS?


Yer Just have to larf    
 :nah    

Keep Happy.

Sandy.

[Khephre]

Maaaate,

we've been saying that about the Aussies for years....

best wishes
a Kiwi neighbour

[steamboatmodel]

:computer    

.................................
After a brief discussion  :gather with my old mates, ‘Prof. Stephen Hawking’ and (by using a special version of the P1 V1 T1a+T1b formula) his old sidekick Dr. A. Einstein, regarding certain the validity of cerstain formula variables, it has been decided nee agreed, that ‘Australia’, or at least one part of it beginning with Wool…and ending in g, cannot, therefore, be part of this universe since the people there are able to CHANGE the ORDER of things to suit their own ends.

What started out as P1 V1 T1….now suddenly becomes V1 P1 T1, furthermore T1 is also changed to T1a+T1b, in a vain attempt to change the progression of TIME and be able to read it on a water clock, which would, I am sure you will all agree, create chaos in our universe.

A second hint at the ‘not of this universe’ comes in the form of an Irish oz, claiming to wish to retire to SW Frog Land and to watch a half built derelict Paddle steamer go floating by powered by steam, using a FROG for an engine.

Now I know that a certain Mr C. Darwin chose to ignore the altogether strange life forms in the land of oz, since they did not fit in with the Normal evolutionary path observed in the rest of the universe…perhaps he knew something he did not tell us about.
Lets face it guys, when you come face to face with hamsters the size of sheep (called Wombats in that universe) Ducks with 4 legs and fur (platypus) but no wings, and huge mice with springs for back legs and pockets in their fur coats (kangaroos), I suppose it is reasonable to project that the rest of the population could have evolved from amphibians, hence the FROG desire. No wonder Darwin went back to the Galapagos.

Finally, since this whole story began with a need/desire, on the part of this OZZIE IRISH FROG, to measure the content of a GAZ tank….I put it to you that a certain D Warner should just TALK to his boiler, cos all the hot air will be far better than a gas burner at heating it up…and do away with the GAZ thingies, hence saving the UNIVERSE from a fate worse than …..WHO KNOWS?


Yer Just have to larf    
 :nah    

Keep Happy.

Sandy.

Hi All,
I am more confused  :? then normal , first "What started out as P1 V1 T1….now suddenly becomes V1 P1 T1, " I remember   the General Gas Law as P1 V1/T1 = P2 V2/T2.  
When I want to check how much fuel I have left I look at the fire ( if its still there I still have fuel) , if I want to know if I have enough for the next run I unscrew the tank and give it a shake, if I hear/feel fluid I am usually good for a run. :yeah  If I want to get real technical        I weigh the tank.
I think maybe your all in an alternate universe .
Regards,
Gerald

[derekwarner_decoy]

OK PD's - I know when to shut up & with [Sandy, Gerald, Jim & now Tony] suggesting   , I shall say no more [for a while] about volumes & pressure of the GAZ contained therein........etc

But as a semi final snap I thought I would share with you my trail tube set ups between various tanks & the respective interconection & gauges......     - Derek

[Red_Hamish]

Hello all, Derek -  :?:  :?:  You know you you can confuse me very easily   :shock:  I see no waymarked path on here for the trail  :?:  and BTW if you do decide to trial this set up!  I sure am glad that we are on opposite sides of the globe    Looks good but is it efficient?
The theory I work on is that any combustion works more efficiently if the external air temperature is a lot lower than your current ambient temperature. This is why steam power was invented/improved up here in Scotland    the added benefit to the engineer and any person present was the welcome additional warmth in a  relatively confined space. To hell with any associated dangers as long as your warm  :twisted:

cheers for now

Jim

p.s one of my colleagues is winging her way over to Aus for a month long holiday. Look after her well we need her back  

[sandy_ACS]

     :news

Hi PD's

Red_hamish says...

The theory I work on is that any combustion works more efficiently if the external air temperature is a lot lower than your current ambient temperature. This is why steam power was invented/improved up here in Scotland

Not strictly true Jim...I agree that in an INFERNAL combustion engine this is very much the case, since cold air is far more dense, hence higher oxygen content per cu/ft, however, with a steam plant there is a great advantage in pre-heating the burner combustion air which would otherwise have to be heated by the burner/fire, thus reducing the amount available for heating the water.....more on this in a later espisode of the steam saga (part 9,999.9 probably).

And the reason the steam engine was invented/developed/improved here in Bonnie Scotland was mainly due to the SASSENACH's not knowing how to do it.  :nose  :sob  :music    



Derek......I hope the pressure gauge shown attached to your condenser top outlet is only for the picture?.....if not, then you are heading for BIG TROUBLE....it ain't a pressure vessel...Otherwise it all looks pretty good so far.

As for Part 3 of the steam Saga...well I am still working on it little by little...got sidetracked somewhat by out of universe conversations with an Irish GAZ frog  

Sorry guys...I knew it was getting well   . it's hard to resist sometimes.

Gerald.....I'm with you mate on how to check the level....but you know what these Ozzies are like.

Tony... :no1   ... so If you've known about this oz problem all this time, why have you not said or done something to protect the rest of us poor guys?
 :twisted:  :twisted:    :music      

Finally guys...for those who were involved with last nights CHAT, many thanks for the welcome I enjoyed the time, albeit a little shorter than I would have liked....

Until the next time.  :computer    

Sandy.

Best Regards.
 

[derekwarner_decoy]

OK OK PD's  :mrgreen: - two serious questions I promise  : .........Sandy......

Question 1) with the gas jet orifice being VERY VERY small, how many full 360 degree turns are required on the 90 degree gas isolation valve hand wheel as attached to my Refillable Gas Tank Serial Number 473 to open it to an optimal position  :?:

On my [the boiler I mean] previous steaming trials I remember say three full turns open & + or - 1/2 a turn did not appear to have any effect on the audible function [the telementry of air draw is difficult to determine or measure] of the burner....[ :rant ..as naturally no GAZ pressure gauges were installed]

The gas isolation valve has a VERY VERY fine spindle thread [TPI], however if you keep the anticlockwise motion going the spindle dis-engages from the gland - is this normal :?: as there is no spindle dis-engagement locking device evident - so when one reads this carefully one must concede it is not a silly question  

Question 2) my GBV180-18 Globe Valve of 23/8/2006 - you have indicated in a previous OFF line communication re the BLACK DOT being for the inlet side....... but as soon as I opened the   parcel  I polished the valve with BRASSO & the DOT is no longer to be seen

So being a globe valve, I assume the clockwise rotational moment [when looking down on the spindle] will seat & seal or stop flow from underneath

If this is the case, please confirm how to determine this....

Please do not suggest that I air [FRIGHT :ohno] it back to Scotland just so you can put a TEXTA black dot somewhere & ship it back as fright =shock as I think she would get cold back in that Scoooootl....d place

So again when one reads this second  :?: carefully one must concede it is not a silly question  

As a final note I may just go out to the garden to see if I can find a few GREEN jumping things to cook for lunch W garlic -........& I'll drown them [or me] with a   or two -    

Appears that Sandy has spoken with Karina [re my   health], as I am now under STRICT instructions not to post any    stuff - Derek

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's & thanks Jim_Hamish for your concern re my health & the health of my boiler room  :boom ....so now that makes three....

Firstly it was Karina the   , then Sandy asking if I had been taking my medication & now you.... how caring :twisted:  :  : - Derek    

[sandy_ACS]

   :twisted:  :twisted:  :hmmm  :hmph

Hi PD's


Derek asks: -

Question 1) with the gas jet orifice being VERY VERY small, how many full 360 degree turns are required on the 90 degree gas isolation valve hand wheel as attached to my Refillable Gas Tank Serial Number 473 to open it to an optimal position  

On my [the boiler I mean] previous steaming trials I remember say three full turns open & + or - 1/2 a turn did not appear to have any effect on the audible function [the telementry of air draw is difficult to determine or measure] of the burner....[  ..as naturally no GAZ pressure gauges were installed]

Well now, this is an absolute case of the (forbidden subject, namely…P1 V1 T1 =)

However, I am sure Eddy and the PD Rottweilers    :respect2 (good name for a band though?) won’t object on this occasion…he says hopefully!!!!!

As you say Derek, the jet has a tiny hole in it (in your case a number 8-size jet with a 0.25mm hole (0.0099”) and the amount of gas that can be pushed through this is determined by the applied pressure, which in turn is effected by temperature.

So the answer to your question “what is the correct number of turns the gas valve has to be opened?” is….it depends upon the temperature and the size of flame you require.

For your burner, I would say that between ¾ and 1 ½ turns open would be about right depending on the gas tank temperature on the day so to speak.

In general it pays to set up the burner and gas tank out/away from the boiler (in a safe place) and do some tests.

Open the gas valve slowly and light the burner, then turn up the gas until the flame gets to a maximum size, adjusting the jet position for optimum if/as required. The flame should consist of several small cones (one from each hole in the ceramic) each with a whitish centre and a bluish outer, and they should all be in contact with the ceramic at their base. The combined flame size should be around 1 – 1 ½” long with as little orange content as possible.
This test will determine the maximum number of turns you need to open the valve to achieve maximum gas flow, after which no amount of opening will affect the size of the flame.
The only thing that will affect the flame size in this condition (other than closing the valve, or running out of gas) will be the gas pressure/temperature.
If it (the gas) warms up (not likely unless externally heated) then the gas pressure, and hence the flow would increase proportionately, Conversely, should the gas pressure/temperature drop (more likely, due to draw off rate) then the flame will get smaller…However, opening the valve in this state will not increase the flame size, since the pressure has dropped and the maximum possible flow through the jet, for the reduced pressure, will also drop.

One could argue that fitting a larger jet would help since this could pass more gas for a given pressure/temperature; however, this is not necessarily going to work and may well be totally the wrong thing for the burner design.

If you consider this….a large gas jet will pass more gas (true), however, if the burner cannot use all this gas then it would need to be reduced (by closing the gas valve)..Again, true.
Also, the flame would almost certainly rise above the surface of the ceramic (due to the higher pressure) and would not then heat the ceramic, thus loosing the radiant heating ability for which the ceramic material and the burner were designed.
Another problem could also become an issue… by reducing the gas flow through the larger jet (by closing the gas valve) you would also reduce the gas flow velocity and this will affect the gas air mixing (which uses the venturi effect to draw in air) via the holes in the side of the gas jet carrier tube.
As a result it is possible (more than likely) that the amount of air mixed with the gas, in the mixing tube, would be insufficient for proper combustion, as a result, when the burner was placed into the boiler flue, the missing air volume required for correct burning would be drawn in via the auxiliary air holes (over and above that needed for normal flue balancing) which would in turn lead to a reduction in flame temperature.
So the burner in this state would be of little use.

 The bottom line here is….your burner/gas jet have been designed to give optimum operation over a reasonable temperature gradient (average ambient conditions) and the valve openings given above are based on this.
The optimum settings, needed for any given installation, can only be determined by trial tests.

Hope this is of some help to you all.

Derek's 2nd question: -

Question 2) my GBV180-18 Globe Valve of 23/8/2006 - you have indicated in a previous OFF line communication re the BLACK DOT being for the inlet side....... but  as soon as I opened the  parcel I polished the valve with BRASSO & the DOT is no longer to be seen

So being a globe valve, I assume the clockwise rotational moment [when looking down on the spindle] will seat & seal or stop flow from underneath

If this is the case, please confirm how to determine this....  
[/quote]

Don't know why I bother painting things really    :nose    

I think I will have to instruct Karina to confiscate his brasso as well.
I attach a PDF with a cross section of the valve this should help you identify which end is which...also included are some more BLACK DOTS in various sizes...how you fit these is your problem...NO DONT ASK KARINA the    of OZ...she has my greatest respect since she is a fellow DIRE STRAITS fan.  And it is a Washbourne DOBRO...great instrument.

Sorry PD's got a bit sidetracked there for a moment.

Finally Derek...the issue you appear to have with your particular gas tank valve spindle unscrewing all the way out is a production issue with BIX engineering.

I noticed this myself a few weeks ago and contacted BIX about it and also pointed out to them that, under British (and I believe now EU law) it is illegal under the gas regulations to manufacture such a valve.
They looked in to this and agreed with my findings and have now changed the design to a captive spindle.
All my current stock of gas tanks are fitted with the new design, so, if you feel that this may present you with a legality problem in OZ then I respectfully ask that you take this up with BIX directly. I will most certainly advise them that the purchase was made through me if necessary.
 

Ok Guys, I think that will do for this post.

Keep happy. :vacat        

Best regards

Sandy.

[Red_Hamish]

Hello all, Sandy, well versed sir. A very informative and decipherable post. The annoying thing is you've really gone and whet my appetite for a live steam powered paddler. Now just to save up for one, that may be a long time in coming though.

All the best

Jim

[Eddy Matthews]

I agree Jim, we need to convince Sandy to add a nice twin cylinder diagonal paddler engine  to his range of engines - Something all of us aspiring steam types can use to build the ultimate paddler!

As some of you know, I'd like to build the Glen Sannox at 1:48 scale, which would give a model 67" (approx) long, so I need something suitable to power it with. I haven't managed to find anything commercially available, so when I start (probably next year) it's almost certainly going to end up with electric power which would be a shame

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's & I do thank you all for understanding that I was not JOKING :  :twisted:

HOWEVER.... the real question is... considering that I have a GAZ regulator installed.... courtesy of Anton, do the 252.5 lines of recommended boiler gas flame  :boom setting  procedure really apply :?:

I would have thought that the simple ....[P & T relationship] would have applied, in that via the regulator T1 would attempt & transend an increase [in flame or heat]  until P2 [desired that is ] was achieved :?:  :?:  :?:  :arrow:

So Gerald it may be fine to do a John Lennon [& shake it up baby] with the tank I mean :music .... but I am still convinced  :ohno there must be a method of monitoring the GAZ content of the tank - Derek  

[derekwarner_decoy]

OK -  sorry all.... my supervising mechanical engineer in charge [Karina] has just read my last post & suggested it's a 'lode' of CODS WALLOP..... in that the regulator is only an ADJUNCT :?:  :?:  :?:  which is necessarily controlled by others - I thought a regulator regulated....Derek

[Red_Hamish]

Hello all, Derel  :idea:  Surely iusing a fishermans sring balance weighing device you'd get an instant fauge of just howm much gas you've  (not personlly you) used during your (boat/sail) excursion. Possibly this is far too easy an option and not anywhere near scientific enough for some industrially minded souls , it'd do me fine though  

cheers

Jim