Boilers

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's - a bit quiet lately so here goes......one  could ask........... what have I done in the past six months?
 Â 
 1) a new SOFT soldered stand for the new Anton GAZ  regulator
 2) a new SOFT soldered [with COMSOL] gauge siphon assembly in  5/32" OD brass - for the ACS boiler [this was to necessitate to be an  OZ straight up & down version as opposed to the Scottish 45 degree  versions which were made that way due to too much MALT whisky I  think]
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 3) one could also ask 'why do I use a Taiwanese 8 mm AF ring  spanner' to tighten the gauge siphon banjo? - well yes you could  ask!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Â 
 4) interesting point here was, when I 'creamated' my  previous LOCTITE banjo siphon assembly joint bond I simply lapped the banjo  sealing surface faces with 1200 W&D & reassembled & steamed to 45  PSI without leakage???
 Â 
 So three lessons or questions learned last  evening................
 Â 
 a) always question a 45 degree Scottish  line 
 b) never use LOCTITE on any component that cannot be  subjected to 500 degrees C to decompose the bond
 c) ................................I could only ask the  manufacturer??... if it seals without seals, then why does he supply a packet  of different thickness seals??
 Â 
 ..........................sorry - I meant annealed copper  washers - Derek
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Â Â 
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    BC Electric (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)    
   Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:44    AM
   Subject: RE: Boilers
   

   
Sandy, so you know, here in the new world,,,,silver    solder...............................................  
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8416#8416

--------------------    m2f --------------------

[BC Electric]

The boiler's you make are very nice, and its a known fact you know much more than I do about them. Which includes makeing them and firing them.

I will just keep my comments to myself from now on.

Jim

[sandy_ACS]

     

Hi PD's,

Well now....Jim'...I stand corrected....

Interesting to note that you distinguish between the lower and higher temperature silver solders in this way over there.

I will admit there is more than a little confusion as to what the correct terms should be, and even here in the UK you find reference to both solder and Braze when talking about this subject.

For example:  often it is necessary (when SILVER SOLDERING (UK terminology)) to use 2, or more, melting point alloys when building a boiler, starting with the highest melting point alloy and ending with the lowest. This process is often referred to as STEP BRAZING, however, all the alloys used would be within the range 600 - 800 degC. and would themselves normally be referred to as silver solder. :?    :sob

Brazing, on the other hand, is generally the term used where the alloy being used has a melting point above 1100 degC, these would include the familiar Sifbronze alloy often used for copper and brass brazing, where the operational temperatures (of the item being manufactured) would possibly exceed 1000 degC.
As you have also stated, there are several Silver loaded alloys with melting temperatures of up to 1200 - 1500 degC, and these would often be used in situations where the item is required to sustain direct contact with a high temperature flame....such as the spearpoint of a true superheater, which would be in direct contact with the main burner flame.
These are often made using stainless steel and would often be brazed using one of the high temperature silver loaded alloys.

These high melting point alloys, silver loaded or not, are generally referred to as Brazing spelter here in the UK.

From a model boiler point of view, I have not generally found it neccessary to use any of the alloys above the 800 degC melting point, with only one or two exceptions....I often use Sifbronze to fix internal girder stays to the top of a firebox, this is one situation where the higher temperature alloy has great advantage, since it is possible (if boiler operating management is not very carefully applied) for the top of a firebox to be allowed to dry out (water level drops to low) and as this is directly exposed to the fire, it pays to have a higher melting point alloy, just to be on the safe side. It would normally be a requirement to also fit a fusible plug (with a low melting point core) to prevent permanent damage in this case.

The other, has already been mentioned (superheater spearpoint).

For the most part, I find that the 2 most used alloys are Johnson and Matthey's Easyflow 2, which has a melting point of 608 - 617 degC, and
Silverflow 24 with a melting range of 740 - 780 degC.

I would use the higher melting point alloy for first operation/assembly. internal joints (centre flue cross tubes etc), and for the remaining joints would use the Easyflow 2 as a second operation/assembly.

As for a heat source when performing these operations...well, yes you can usually manage with just a propane torch for these alloys, however, I use a combination of a propane torch with a broad flame, which is used for general preheating (copper requires a lot of heat, especially with the larger boilers, or where several layers have to be heated), and Oxy Acetylene for the actual local heat around the individual joints.
I find this gives me more control over local heating and reduces the overall amount of gas being used.

So there we have it....hope this helps clear the muddied waters.

BTW, I don't know where you feel that you have angered me....quite the reverse....so just ask away, or explain things from your country's view point...I am sure we are all interested in the many differences in our common language and it's use.

In answer to your question, do I make boilers as part of a businees....well yes I do...you might like to visit my web site...just click on the bottom of any of my posts on the WWW icon.

     



Now then....our Derek.
 :hmmm    :hmph

I don't know about you guy's, but I think DW has been on the WD40 again
       :nah....or maybe he's found a BEAR SHOP and purchased some pickle....shame I never told him not to drink it.        

Now if you think about where OZ is, in relation to Scotland you will observe that it is approx 180 deg around the globe....now when I made his syphon tube I adjusted for this, and also for the spin of the earth...and added +15 minutes/degree to the jig used to make the blooming thing, so that it came the right way up.....now he has made a new one....this is an OZ version which, in DW's words, goes straight UP and DOWN ( a true syphon tube should be a U-TUBE and should go DOWN then UP. otherwise you would need to fit a vaccuum gauge to bring the readings correct.
 :wink:        :music

As for the variable thickness copper spacers...well again...these are for awkward persons...what like to alter things and they give the option of making the thing stick out further, or not, depending on the combination of spacers used.......what else would they be for......Loctite just ensures they don't get lost when undoing things.....

Yer just have to laugh....    :vacat  :luck      :music

Have fun and keep smiling.

Best regards to all.

Sandy

[derekwarner_decoy]

OK - just don't ASK  :rant  - I have learnt from the lesson on the use of copper washers as to align things [never mind keeping the steam in]

So as all can see, my ACS boiler VB2 sports a new GLOSS paint job & baked in the oven last evening for 60 minutes

So now :ohno I most seriously need to ask about the 1/4" ID fibre washers.........

1) the outgoing fibre washers were sort of black & soggy
2) the only new ones I can find in OZ are sort of red, dry & hard
3) are the black & soggy versions unique to Scotland :?:  :?:
4) or do I need to soak the replacement fibre washers in fluid prior to installation :?:  :?:
5) if the correct answer is 4)..... what sort of fluid :?: .... a little drop of Hunter Valley RED NED would make em soggy & blackish :shock:  :shock: in no time at all

This may seem a silly question [considering AF Campbell] suggests many of my taking things apart is   .............not warranted

Please note, the reference above to VB2 has nothing to do with Victoria Bitter & the snap of a TOOHEYS NEW next to Decoy was to just to show proportions as we have very few calibrated measuring devices here in OZ :nah

It is fathers day  .... looks like I had better drink the   before the the grand kids turn up as they are intent on  helping me finish    PS Decoy :sob ....... Derek

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PDs' - I had a very very minor issue :roll:  : with a  :?: about a pressure gauge...... but as usual our resident steam GURU  came back & said.... this is the fix &  :luck ..... well PD's, yes the fix worked as below &  :nah for the advice - Derek

Original message follows    :rant    :nose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hey Sandy,  yes the gauge came apart without issue & I simply stretched the white 'plastic' spacer ring over a taper & reinstalled it all OK

I like your choice of words...... but are you suggesting that I need to get my bends CRACK tested??? - would you suggest mag flow or ultrasonic???

Now back to school... I remember P1 V1 T1 = P2 V2 T2, & sort of understand that a pressure gauge in the tank line will give an indication of pressure, but relative only to the variables - or am I cracked :?: ...............
----- Original Message -----
From: ACS engineering
To: Derek L Warner Pty Ltd
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pressure Gauges


Hi Derek,

Knew I should have specified  upside down glue for your gauge......He He....what a .....Humph!!!!

The outer case is a tight push fit over the inner assembly...no need to unscrew anything....try putting an small (wide) flat blade under the rim where it is close to the small square block....a slight twist should start it on it's way....then just ease it all the way off by hand....with a slight wiggling motion to keep it in line with the inner case.....they can be quite tight.

The rubber ring should be glued (loctite or superglue) to the inside off the top cover just under the glass...it acts as a stop and a seal and a glass retainer (all in one).

The 2 rear screws actually hold the entire inner workings in place inside the rear body and if you schoose to have a look, then be very careful....the bourdon tube mechanism is quite delicate.

Your revised (YELLOW ughh! Brass....Ha Ha) siphon tube looks just great, I assume you cracked the bending issue with a proper bender, and Comsol will be just great....a very neat job you have made

[Walter Snowdon]

Hi Derek. Hiding behind that very nice model andbottle of "excuse for real beer" I spy what looks like a Washboard, electric guitar and possibly 5 string banjo. You arent one of those relics from the age of skiffle and folk music "like wot I am" are you?.  Regards walter.

[derekwarner_decoy]

Oh No - Sandy another musical relic has emerged  from the loooooooooong gone past.......but Walter tis not a washbourne but a  roll up washbourne looking CD chest which supports my but my old 68 tele.... I  purchased the wooden chest, the tele & the hull of Decoy in a JOB lot of the  same wooden tone 38 years ago .... just kidding.........& the bottle of beer  was only to give dimensional perspective.......just  kidding.........
 Â 
 OK, just thinking of the phraseology...... musical  relic or should it be musical wreck???  just  kidding.......Derek
   
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    Walter Snowdon (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)    
   Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:38    AM
   Subject: RE: Boilers
   

   
Hi Derek. Hiding behind that very nice model andbottle    of "excuse for real beer" I spy what looks like a Washboard, electric guitar    and possibly 5 string banjo. You arent one of those relics from the age of    skiffle and folk music "like wot I am" are you?. Regards    walter.

[sandy_ACS]

:twisted:  :twisted:  :nah  

Hi All,

Derek say's

but are you suggesting that I need to get my bends CRACK tested??? - would you suggest mag flow or ultrasonic???

I personaly think a penetrant dye followed by a thorough examination under an electron microscore should be a good starting point....following this with flouroscopy and y-radiation, possibly even neutron radiography....just for good measure an accoustic emission inspection and/or multi phase flow analysis.

Your authorities (the 1/10th scale crew) may well insist on SCC tensile test to ASTM G49 + galvanic corrosion test to ASTM G71....if I were them, I would also insist upon an SCC 4 point test for 180 degree bends to ASTM G-30 U-bends)....but thats just me....  :nah  :nose      :music  :music

 I remember P1 V1 T1 = P2 V2 T2, & sort of understand that a pressure gauge in the tank line will give an indication of pressure, but relative only to the variables

I'm not going to argue wiv the teecchheers, (last time I tried I got detenshun and 400 lines)  but ......you cannot use the boiler pressure gauge to tell you how much water is in the boiler....it's the same for gas tanks.....you work it out (hint....in this case V1 or V2 only relate to the free space above the respective liquids)....when you have then let me know how I can get rid of the water gauge...I'm sure everyone else would also like to know......dah! :?:  :shock:  :?  :hmmm          


Walter...

Hiding behind that very nice model andbottle of "excuse for real beer" I spy what looks like a Washboard, electric guitar and possibly 5 string banjo. You arent one of those relics from the age of skiffle and folk music "like wot I am" are you?.  

Don't let him off the hook Walter, yes he is and I have the e-mail evidence to prove it....mind you...I can't say to much...cos I am one also...              oh to hell with protocol.....   ....I like his taste in guitars though.

Ok I'm going to tune up the Gibson and the Fender.

BTW, I agree about the "excuse for real beer" (or in Derek's part of the world BEAR).


Keep happy.

Best regards to all.

Sandy.      :vacat  

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's - if I didn't :roll: know better, I would have thought that that  :hmmm obnoxious Scott [AFCAMPBELL] was trying to take the mickey out of me


He quotes....[your authorities (the 1/10th scale crew)]...... when my communication quite clearly notes a 1/25 Scale crew & when I was asking for simple NON Destructive tube bend tests like these.... & , he ... that same Scott comes back & suggests the level of testing required will necessarily KILL or MELT my humble OZ tube bends just for the sake of his Scottish Science  :rant

As a holder of a PhD from the "University of Life" .... I could only prescribe that both Sandy & Walter go out & purchase a new set of 'Fender Light Rock & Roll " guitar strings & enjoy the  good :music    :music - Derek

[derekwarner_decoy]

Oh dear - sorry all PD's   - I have been taken to task by another   who watches over my words..... in that I could not really prove in a court of law that that particular person may or may not have mis interpurated my 1/25 scale crew .....& so relates it back as a 1/10 scale crew...... I am sure both Sandy & Kate understand .... & that Karina is watching over my words :nah    :yeah  

[sandy_ACS]

Posted: Mon Sep 2006    Post subject:  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     :twisted:  :twisted:  

Hi PD's,

Hi PD's - if I didn't  know better, I would have thought that that  obnoxious Scott [AFCAMPBELL] was trying to take the mickey out of me  


He quotes....[your authorities (the 1/10th scale crew)]...... when my communication quite clearly notes a 1/25 Scale crew & when I was asking for simple NON Destructive tube bend tests like these....  &  , he ... that same Scott comes back & suggests the level of testing required will necessarily KILL or MELT my humble OZ tube bends just for the sake of his Scottish Science  

Ok Derek....just checking to see you were paying attenshuuunn....and you were...sort of!!! :mrgreen:  :respect2  

Naturally if you had been paying 'FULL' attenshun then you would reallizzze that you should deevide tha ASTM numbers by 2.4 to get to the correct test levels.... :hmph  :hmmm  :nose    :music

BTW...Kate say's that Karina should keep a much closer eye on you from now on....    

All the best.


Sandy.

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's - I have given some very serious   & spoken with a few  :gather colleagues & think there may be some merrit in revising the combined GAZ law type bit of P1 V1 T1= something......... to P1 V1 T1a + T1b= something else

Now the basis for this was not my humble thought, NO..NO..NO but that of that AFC person from Scotland and is as follows......

The new variable [T1b] stands for time which an important unit as I don't have much spare, however we must all need to understand that a water gauge cannot show or express the time as the latter is usually displayed on a dial so hence the revision to my ACS VB2 boiler   - just a few slight modifications & you can see the water glass is gone & replaced with two dual function dials.... one down side up, & one up side down

I cannot wait for steam trials    :music - Derek

[sandy_ACS]

:twisted:  :twisted:  :gather  :nose

Hi Pd's

in this case V1 or V2 only relate to the free space above the respective liquids

Now I think you will all agree that this must now refer to either the WD40 or , as Walter suggests, Excuse for real beer (BEAR).
I think the space above our Derek's has increased by more than a small amount.

I shall have to e-mail Karina   to get something done about this condition :music        :computer

His revisions to the formula are not entirely correct....YET.

Given that P1 V1 T1a = something.

Then T1b = small increment of else, since you have so little of it!!!....not sure what 'it' is, any suggestions guy's.

Hence Sigma T1- Delta T1b  = the time on a water gauge.
            P1 V1
No need for downside up time/pressure clocks.

However, this does not transfer to GAZ tanks cos they don't have water clocks.

Now our RED Hamish will be totally Bamboozled.

Have fun and keep happy. :twisted:  :twisted:  :music      :nah

Sandy.

[Eddy Matthews]

Now our RED Hamish will be totally Bamboozled.

Have fun and keep happy. :twisted:  :twisted:  :music      :nah

Sandy.

RED will be totally bamboozled? So am I !!!

I know you live on one side of the planet and Derek lives on the other, the only thing I haven't managed to figure out yet is which planet???

[sandy_ACS]

   

Nice one Eddy,,,I'm not sure myself most of the time,,,especially having to handle the ozzies...He He  

It keeps the ball rolling though.


May join in tomorrow on the Chat channel...got it all set up now.

Best regards.

Sandy