Sirius plastic model

[rjhviscount]

I wonder has anyone built the Sirius model just come out from a
company called Zvezda? I am really struggling with it especially the
assembly of the paddle boxes to the hull. Does anyone have any tips?
Robert.

[Paulrjordan]

Hi Robert:

This sounds like the old Heller "Occident"/Minicraft "Oriental Star"
kit. Scott Reigel once did an interesting review on the
Zvezda "Sirius" kit on the Great Eastern Website he and Paddleduck
member Christian Schönberger have at:
http://www.russellwild.co.uk/greateastern

However, I no longer see that review on their site, although I'm sure
you could email Christian or Scott to get a reprint. Christian..are
you out there? If so can you email Robert please with the info on
Scott's review of the "Sirius" kit?

Thanks

PJ

[mgbgtgrimm]

I have bought the model but have not built it yet, however, I have built the
Heller version (L'Occident) and I can tell you they are identical in every
way. I had no problems with any of it. In fact I thought it went quite well.
I have also built the Stiengraeber wood version. Contact me off list and
maybe I can help. Greg & Grimm in MI

[Paulrjordan]

First my apologies to G&G for not remembering he had told us he'd
made the Heller L'Occident Model (original moulds of the "Sirius"
kit) and he is certainly an excellent resource having also made the
Steingraeber 32" 1:60 wooden kit which has a lot of good reference.
Incidentally that old wood "Sirius" kit is rare and commands a decent
price of US$130 and up in the auctions.

My next mistake was to not refer to the Paddleduck archives which
have lots of great photos and reference in the Photos files
sections. The email archives and photos/files/links sections are
ALWAYS the first place to look for reference as there are very few
modeling subjects we haven't covered in this forum.

In March of this year G&G posted some excellent pictures of his
wooden Steingraeber "Sirius" model in our photos section.
Look in the photo section under:
All Albums | Photo Albums > Sirius model

These photos provide some excellent detailing information and he
thoughfully put up a couple of images of the plans too. All kinds of
detailing there for turning the Zvezda plastic model into a little
masterpiece.

The bonus is that G&G also posted a photo album of his plastic
Heller "L'Occident" (the original plastic "Sirius")and you can see
exactly how well it has gone together. Makes a superb little display
model.

You can see that album under:
All Albums | Photo Albums > L'Occident

So as you can see G&G has become very much a "Serious Sirius" expert!

I've found Christian's review of the Zvezda kit which is at:
http://www.modelship.info/debrisfield/reviews/sirius/Sirius.html

So all in all I'd say you have everything you need to go ahead. Good
luck and keep us posted on your progress.

For those wishing to purchase the Zvezda kit, co-Moderator David has
posted information in:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paddleducks/message/2848

David gives us a giggle by pointing out the artwork on the Zvezda
box (click the link in his posting) and you'll see the artist has
drawn the "Sirius" with the wind blowing in at least three directions
at once!

Best regards

PJ

[mgbgtgrimm]

I thought I took pics of the Heller version I built but I had a computer
crash couple weeks ago and now I can't find them. I forgot I uploaded them
and was going to re=take some pics. I may still do that. But if there is a
specific are that somebody wants pics of let me know and I will take them.
Greg & Grimm in MI

[Paulrjordan]

Yep, definitely something wrong here, G & G. Your measurements
clearly show some strange scale relationships between the actual ship
and the models.

I took all the measurements you made (in inches) and scaled them.
Here is an example of LOA and beam (scales rounded up).

Sirius Steingraeber Heller
LOA 208' (2496") 32.25" = 1:77 21.75" = 1:114
B of H 309.5" 5.5" = 1:52 3.375" = 1:92
BOPB 567" 9" = 1:63 5.5" = 1:103

As you can see the relationships are all over the place, and that
goes for all the other scale relationships based on the measurements
you took. Some of the other measurements scaled out as high as 1:196
and 1:212. So it seems we have a bit of a can of worms here. The
Steingraeber has always been stated as a 1:60 model and the Heller at
either 1:96 or 1/100.

In order to determine the dimensional accuracy of the models, I think
we need to first verify accurately the length of the full-
size "Sirius".

Two of my references state her as having a LOA of 208' but another
states:

"...the Sirius was subsequently placed on it at the recommendation of
Mr MGregor Laird of Birkenhead. This vessel also was built of wood,
and was 178 ft. long, 25 1/2 ft. broad, 18 3/4 ft. deep and her
tonnage was 703.

Maybe this is a ref to her perp. dimensions and not LOA? If this were
LOA it would come out much closer to the stated scales of the models,
1:66 and 1:98 respectively.

The Merseyside Maritime Museum show on their website a model of the
Sirius in 1:96 scale with a "size (overall): 76.3 cm". This makes the
model 30" At this scale that means a full size ship of 240 feet!

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/models/T07763.asp

I should point out this model was based on a 19th Cent painting in
which case there is no possible way it can be used as an accurate
scale reference of the full size ship. So now we have to be a bit
careful here as there seems to be quite a bit of discrepancy in
dimensions and we have to make sure we're not comparing the
proverbial "apples to oranges".

Exactly what length are we talking about and where are the various
full size dimensions taken from? LOA including bowsprit and stern
flagstaff...or any other combination? I think we have to first
establish the overall length of the full size "Sirius" between two
points we can easily identify on the models. This would ideally be
tip of bowsprit to aft perp.(not including any stern flagstaff). Next
is to make sure dimensions are from an authoritative and
contemprorary source and laterally corroborated to make sure that
mistakes are not being historically repeated.

So if anyone has good historical reference to definable dimensions
of "Sirius", we'd be very interested in hearing from you with the
objective of determining how accurate the two model kits are.

Hope this has not thrown a cat among the pigeons..but this whole
thing has now piqued my curiosity.

PJ
Victoria, BC Canada

[Paulrjordan]

Hi G & G:

It's 5:15 am New Year's Day and I woke up thinking about "Sirius" and
the helpful data you provided on the Steingraeber and Heller models!

While looking around for more sources to shed some light on the
Sirius length question I came across this website I havn't seen for a
long time. Paddler stamps and some useful early steamer chronology.

http://baegis.ag.uidaho.edu/~myron/html/rad.htm

They refer to Sirius as "...built in 1837 at Leith, with a length of
200' and 703 tons."

I'm pretty sure this is a reference to LOA (as opposed to perps.)

Your BOH and BOPD model measurements are particularly useful as they
show a much closer scale proximity to each other, although still a
couple of feet shorter than the real ship. The lateral dimensions of
the real ship might be much easier to pin down than the length. I
have this sneaky suspicion that the LOA references we have may be a
little suspect (and certainly suggest a variance with each other)
and, once again, I don't think we can consider the kits as being
dimensionally inaccurate until we can firmly establish the correct
length of the original ship and compare that to your measurements.

I'll keep searching through the resources I have in my library.

Meanwhile a VERY HAPPY 2004 to you.

PJ
Victotia, BC Canada

[mgbgtgrimm]

Paul,
For the OAL I measured from the tip of the bowsprit to the rear most
point on the stern rail on both models. No way of knowing if that is what
Spratt was refering His measurments to. I think a significant dimension that
could be an identifier is the distance listed between the "uprights" by
Spratt assuming He meant the 'masts' as being the "uprights". There is also a
significant difference in the shape of the bow and the stern galleries
between the two models. Greg & Grimm

[Dai Powell]

Hi there,
Just to get my two cents worth in I always believed that
the "uprights" (perpendiculars) were the stempost to the sternpost,
(not the masts) (Basically stem to transom)"counter" sterns were
known to overhang the "rudderpost" by varying amounts ....Dai

[Paulrjordan]

--- In Paddleducks@yahoogroups.com, "mgbgtgrimm" <mgbgtgrimm@a...>
wrote:
> I have uploaded a MS WORD file that gives actual dimensions of the
> real Sirius taken from the book: "TRANSATLANTIC PADDLE STEAMERS by
> H.Philip Spratt" and I have included dimensions measured off the
> Stiengraeber and Heller models. Greg & Grimm

Hi again G & G!

I've checked some of my books and "THe First Transatlantic Liners" by
Peter Allington and Basil Greenhill. It's a very informative and
authoritative book but unfortunately devotes far more space to "Great
Western" than "Sirius", and provides no dimensional data for her.

My big picture book, the famous "Paddle Steamers" by Peter Griffin
quotes exactly the same dimensions as those you uploaded from Spratt.

I'd like to find a couple more independant references.

All the best

PJ

Christian..are you still out there? Would love to hear from you on
this as you did some research on "Sirius" and the two models..

[Paulrjordan]

Hi G&G

Do you mean the Steigraeber kit did not contain any plans or it did
not list a scale? If there are drawings in the kit perhaps you can
use one known dimension as a scale for the rest of the ship. For
instance, the 24' diameter of the paddlewheel seems consistent in
references and can be used to measure other parts of the drawing.

I found a Sirius profile drawing on the Dutch NVM Model Boat Magazine
site. Using the 24' diameter of the paddle wheels as a scale I
measured from tip of bowsprit to aft extremity of taffrail. It comes
out at 232 feet! Strange thing is the draft and depth of hold comes
out almost exactly to the specs you provided from Spratt.

Boy! that doesn't make it easier does it because IF the Svezda kit is
correctly stated as being 1:100, then your 21 3/4" measurement of the
kit scales up to only 181.25 ft on the real ship! As you correctly
stated when you first posted the dimensions...something is really out
of wack here with these models (or the dimensions we've been given
for the original ship).

I have to go back to work tomorrow so my Paddleduck time will be
curtailed. I've really enjoyed the past few days back on the
group...and hope to be back from time to time..meanwhile you'll know
I'll be reading EVERY post.

All the best

PJ
Victoria, BC. Canada

[mgbgtgrimm]

Paul if you go and study the two pics of the Stiengraeber plans that i
posted, or better yet import them into a program where as you could print
them out and you will see that each drawing of the ship is of a different
size with no apparent relativity to each other. As it says on the plans (sic)
if you follow the picture on the box cover you should be able build a
suitable model! Greg & Grimm

[Paulrjordan]

Yes, I see what you mean G&G. One is a kit construction diagram and
the other a rigging plan. Since there's nothing to suggest any scale
we can't take them as dimensional reference. I'll keep looking
around for more information on "Sirius" dimensions. Oh, by the
way..congratulations you did a very nice job on the kit!

Best regards

PJ
Victoria, BC Canada

[mgbgtgrimm]

Paul,
I went down to the basement and rumaged thru the big pile of ships plans
and I did find the single sheet that came with the Stiengraeber. I thought it
was so bad that I had photoed it and then shit canned it, seems I didn't
after all. The plans say "SCALE 1:60" however there are no datum lines. There
is a section thru the center line of the paddle wheels which I guess is what
I used because it matches my model dimensions. There is however a
plan/top/deck view which does not match the section. In that view the breadth
over the wheel boxes measures 6 3/4" and the breadth of the hull measures 4
3/4". This was not a laser kit as I bought it in early '70's. Every thing was
just printed on the plywood which I used as my "drawing guide" and cut out
all my own parts. The only thing used from the kit were the fillgree gold
decorations which were cast in the hardest metal I ever worked with. They
were all way too thick and took forever to grind down to a usable thickness.
Greg & Grimm

[Paulrjordan]

Hmmm....that makes it even more curious, G&G. First, well done for
finding that third sheet because all my reference on the kit mentions
THREE sheets of instructions. I'm sure you already worked out that
at a scale of 1:60, the dimensions they give on "Sheet 3" still don't
match the Spratt dimensions.

BOH 4.75" at 1:60 = 23' 9" (Spratt 25' 9 1/2")
BOPB 6.75" at 1:60 = 33' 9" (Spratt) 47' 3"

Half of the BOPB minus BOH gives us the width of each paddle boxe in
feet. Thus, using Spratt:

47'3" - 25'9" = Each paddle box 10'9" wide!

Using the same formula on "Plan 3" and scaling by 1:60 we get:

6.75" - 4.75" = 2" x 60/12 /2 = Each paddle box 5' wide which seems
to me a bit narrow. So the dimensions are still all over the place!

I've written to the NMM and Science Museum to see what they have
for "Sirius" ruling dimensions, so eventually I might get a reply.

I'll keep you posted and would appreciate vice-versa.

Sincerely

PJ