Experiences with the NMM, Greenwich, UK

[Dai Powell]

Hi Folks,
I have not posted anything since my "enthusiastic" posting
after hearing that the NMM had a copy of the drawings for "HMS
Pioneer" a Sternwheel paddler that took part in the Maori wars in
New Zealand in 1863-4. The great day finally arrived, when the
drawings, nicely packaged in a cardboard tube transported by Airmail
(it still took three weeks to arrive, I guess the carrier pidgeons
must have been tired) then to my disgust I discovered that the
drawings enclosed were for a Different "Pioneer" not only was ther a
difference in dimensions 115ft X 12ft instead of 140 ft X 20ft but
instead of being a sternwheeled Gunboat with two 12ft cupolas it was
a side wheeled "tender to a ship called the"Rattlesnake" friend
Jeremy in the research department referred me to a book by JJ
Colledge (his source of information)which I located in our public
library in which there were at least three "Pioneer's" however mine
was very clearly mentioned with dimensions and theatre of operations
as well as the right date. But of course the NMM instead of saying
we have no drawings for the boat you requested led me to believe
that they were sending me the right drawings. So BEWARE
of "friendly fire" when dealing with the NMM Grenwich UK. I have
complained to Jeremy and will be very interested to hear his remedy
for the situation ( I mean to say the drawings cost me over $100
Canadian including post and handling charges)

Cheerio Lads all the best............Dai Powell

[Paulrjordan]

Hi David:

This is indeed a tale of woe, but unfortunately not exceptional.

Now, first off, I derive no satisfaction from publicly criticizing
such bodies as the National Maritime Museum so I will try to keep my
comments as objective as possible.

Co-Moderator David (Allinson) received plans for his P.T. "Scotia"
from the NMM as did Christian for "GE". Their comments were fairly
positive but they did mention the high cost of obtaining the plans. I
am sure there are many modelers who are quite happy in with their
dealings with the NMM...however, I am NOT one of them !

Last year I requested the NMM for ANY plans and information for the
Barclay Curle Clyde paddler "Diana Vernon" of 1885. I received a
reply stating they had one only midship section for the ship along
with the following costs.

"A-4 Midship Section Plan - £13.00"
"Research Fee £11.00"
"Packing and Postage £18.00"

I was absolutely astounded when I received their email and was sure
there had to be a mistake. Come on, folks...CAN$100.00 for a single
sheet of paper??? I THINK NOT! I received a terse confirmation
there was no mistake!

I therefore concluded that this plan must be very special indeed and
asked them to describe it for me and if it included any paddlewheel
details. The answer came back that I would have to "pay the research
fee" in order to receive this information!!! That did it for me and
I realized this was bordering on extortion as they have in fact
cornered the market on many ships' plans.

Recently in the UK, I spoke to Trevor Cox, a British paddlewheeler
expert on South Coast ships. He said he had seen the "Diana Vernon"
drawing and it was very rudimentary and lacking any paddle
detail. "Not worth spending any money on" was his comment.

In fact the scandal of it all is that virtually ALL the NMM plans
have been donated to them and furthermore it is my understanding that
they receive fairly healthy subsidies from the UK Government!

So, good "Paddleducks", be mindful of David's tale and mine too. Be
cautious when dealing with the NMM as there is a certain monopolistic
arrogance which can end up as a rather expensive exercise. I should
also point out the NMM has a "No return policy" on any material they
provide...and, as David will tell you, this applies EVEN on plans
they have wrongly identified and sent in error!

However, take heart...ALL Museums are not created equal...and the
assistance (and material)I have received from such institutions as
the Newhaven Maritime Museum, (Sussex, UK), Hudsons Bay Archives
(Province of Manitoba, Canada), The MacLean (Greenock, Scotland), The
Scottish Maritime Museum, Glasgow Museum of Transportation, Mitchel
Library (Glasgow) and Glasgow University Archive Service has been
nothing short of FANTASTIC!

PJ
Victoria, BC
Canada

PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE SENTIMENTS ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN AND IN NO WAY
EXPRESS A GENERAL CONCENSUS OR POLICY OF THIS FORUM.

[Dallinson]

Paul.
After my experiences, I had already made up my mind that I would, on
principle, not have any further dealings with NMM again. In future I will
only build a model of ships that I can get plans for at a sensible price and
where the arrogance is not there.
Best regards
David

PS I put a note in the files section covering dealings with NMM, sometime
ago.

[Stuart Badger]

Dear All

Yes...the NMM can be a little, shall we say 'opportunist' in it's pricing
policy!! (in my opinion). Perhaps I can offer a few words of advice when
researching a vessel and dealing with the NMM and other archive services.

It is essential when dealing with the NMM to have as much info as possible
on the vessel you want drawings for - this may seem obvious but one item
which will ensure you get the right drawings (if they have them) is the Yard
Number of where the ship was built. This can avoid confusion over craft with
the same name. OK clever clogs I hear you say - 'how do I get that?' -
fortunately most of the paddlers we are interested in were built on the
Clyde. There is a very good site that records ALL the vessels built there
at:-

http://www.clydebuiltships.co.uk/clydebuilt/search.asp

You can search this database by builder, ship name, date etc. This will give
you all the available info on the ship. Another useful site is the UK
national register of archives at:- http://www.hmc.gov.uk/nra/nra2.htm
this tells you where the records for any particular company are if any
exist - you can search by corporate name (ie the builder) in the maritime
history section and there are often links to direct you to that particular
site.

It's worth looking at doing a search for Archive services in the
geographical area of the ship builder, for instance; I found all of Gourlay
brothers existing drawings at:-
http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/archives/gourlay2.htm
and there are many records available at:-
http://thenortheast.com/archives/UserGuides/05_Shipbuilding.html#sect1 a
complete list of Cammel Lairds' production can be found at :-
http://www.wirral-libraries.net/archives/list_of_vessels_constructed_by_c.ht
m

Also if the NMM does make a mistake YOU ARE entitled to return the drawings
under the sale of goods act - just get heavy. They are a public body and as
such WE pay for them. Legally, for instance I am told that they CANNOT
insist drawings are copyright - they are in the public domain!

In practical terms be aware of the description of the drawings when you
receive the pro-forma from the NMM. They often list a whole sheaf of drawing
titles. The only useful ones are the profile, plan and lines. Most of the
sections etc are builders constructional drawings that although interesting
are of little use to the model maker.

As an example of pricing I recently enquired about drawings of the Barclay
Curle Admiralty paddle tug 'Volcano'. A complete set of drawings were priced
at something just over £100 sterling!! even cutting it down to three sheets
left the price at about £70 sterling. By comparison Dundee City archives
sent me a three sheet set of original builder's drawings for the paddle
steamer Zampa (built 1867 - and my next project) for the princely sum
of....£18 sterling!

You may well find that a good book will yield workable drawings. Phil
Thomas's 'British Steam Tugs for instance has many fine line drawings which
can be photocopied or scanned up in size.

In defence of the NMM can I just say that the people you deal with are
merely enforcing a policy thrust upon them. They do have an unrivalled
collection but are understaffed and under-funded.

As a footnote to Dai Powell - I might be interested in those drawings you
have by mistake myself - email me!

Stuart Badger

[Paulrjordan]

Wonderful posting, Stuart and thanks for all those useful URL's.

> As an example of pricing I recently enquired about drawings of the
> Barclay Curle Admiralty paddle tug 'Volcano'. A complete set of
> drawings were priced at something just over £100 sterling!! even
> cutting it down to three sheets left the price at about £70
> sterling.

Now it's payback time to the NMM..sorry!

The Naval Paddle tug "Volcano" was one of 9 Dromedary Class ships
built at the turn of the Century. "Volcano" is listed as Pennant No.
W61 built by Barclay Curle and, as we all know, all Barclay Curle
plans were donated to the NMM.

P. N. Thomas mentions on page 125 of his book "British Steam Tugs":

"There were nine Dromedary Class..." (snip)

and later on the same page:

"The VOLCANO was built in 1899 (Hannan says 1900!) at a time when the
last of the big civilian paddle tugs with twin funnels were being
broken up. Her funnels were very widely spaced and being so tall
they made the vessel look shorter than she was- 144ft x 27.2ft. A
noticeable fitting was the huge casting round each anchor hausehole
at the bow, matched by a similar pair at the stern (127)"

LO and behold on Page 127, Thomas shows a full set of plans
for "Volcano"...INCLUDING BODY LINES! I have checked my reference
and there is no doubt this is a Dromedary Class Tug. As these plans
look very "period" to me, I have taken the liberty of scanning them
and I'd challenge both Thomas AND the NMM over the copyright. You're
welcome to the scan if you want it, Stuart, as it could easily be
blown back up to the original 1:48 plans...and the NMM can stick
their 100 quid for plans where the sun don't shine!

Talking of Naval tugs, I had a just had BIG surprise involving THE
GURU of model Paddle Tugs, Bill Wilkinson, who wrote me a delightful
12 page handwritten letter detailing the construction and sequence of
his entire fleet!! This fabulous guy (71 years I believe) also senth
wonderful photos of his HUGE models, including his 13 (yes Thirteen)
foot Dromedary class Paddle Tug, the famous "Cracker" ! I'll be
sharing all this with you later on...AFTER I've told you all about my
visit to Stuart's workshop in Slindon (UK), which nestles in the
pastoral spleandour of the Sussex countryside ! I can tell you one
thing...his photos of "Reliant" are good, but they don't do justice
to the model when you see it "in the flesh" (well copper actually!).
It is truly magnificent!

PJ