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Author Topic: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley  (Read 1459 times)

Offline Peter Binns

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My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« on: January 24, 2018, 11:03:11 AM »
Although I have been making large scale RC model boats and ships of character and/or historical significance for the last ten years (see pics), I have never tackled a paddle steamer.  So, like probably dozens of other marine modellers before me, I have chosen to scratch build a 1:48 scale PS Waverley, but mine will be steam-powered.

Whilst I’m waiting for the ex-MMI plans to arrive (which I will scale up to 1:48 at the local architectural plan printers), more and more queries (some very basic) are coming into my head about the challenge before me. I’ve therefore registered with Paddleducks in the hope that some of you veteran paddlers will be able to answer some of my questions. Here goes:

1) At ‘service speed’ I understand that the paddle wheels of the actual vessel rotate at 52rpm. Will my model perform to scale speed if I gear down the steam drive to max 52rpm? If not, what rpm should I aim for? What compensation needs to be added to take account of the water resistance?

2) Finding paddle wheel kits of the correct size (ideally 115mm diameter x 70mm wide with 19mm paddle depth) seems increasingly difficult. The Graupner wheels appear to have been discontinued, but I am aware of the non-feathering styrene kits sold by Cayton Vintage Models, the brass kits from Mike Mayhew and those from Clyde Model Boats, although I can’t find any info on the latter two. Suggestions please!

3) I like to replicate the engineering as closely as possible, but is it worth going to the expense and complication of having feathering paddle wheels on a model of this size?

4) Where might I find a set of suitable bolt-on bearings for the paddle wheel shaft?

5) A wise gentleman at the International Model Boat Show last November advised me to always add extra hull depth below the waterline on paddle steamers to accommodate ballast and reduce their inherent instability. Do you agree, and if so, by how much on a model that will be about 1.5 metres in length?

No doubt there will be more questions as I get into the build, but I’ll be grateful for any advice from more experienced paddle enthusiasts. Thank you. :)

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2018, 05:08:12 PM »
Hullo & welcome to PD's Peter

Your post is very clear looking toward the end of the finished model, however there are many underlying paths that need your research prior to simply building a hull & hoping for the best

Are you familiar in wood working in building a plank on frame vessel some 1500 mm long?
Are you happy or competent in building a functioning steam plant and drive from a number of component sources?
So, for simplicity, I have copied your post to a Q&A format
As you progress, there will be many, many questions…do not fear as many have been down this watery path before
I hope these assist

Derek  :beer
___________________________________________________

Q1) - At ‘service speed’ I understand that the paddle wheels of the actual vessel rotate at 52rpm. Will my model perform to scale speed if I gear down the steam drive to max 52rpm? If not, what rpm should I aim for? What compensation needs to be added to take account of the water resistance?
A1) - to understand you must research as much as you can about model Waverley vessels, however a mathematical rule in scale = multiply the actual shaft speed by the square root of the scale for the models shaft rotation speed

Q2) Finding paddle wheel kits of the correct size (ideally 115mm diameter x 70mm wide with 19mm paddle depth) seems increasingly difficult. The Graupner wheels appear to have been discontinued, but I am aware of the non-feathering styrene kits sold by Cayton Vintage Models, the brass kits from Mike Mayhew and those from Clyde Model Boats, although I can’t find any info on the latter two. Suggestions please!
A2) - your research here will be invaluable……..our archives have a number of threads relating to the not so simple wheel builds

Q3) I like to replicate the engineering as closely as possible, but is it worth going to the expense and complication of having feathering paddle wheels on a model of this size?
A3) - if you intend your build to be a scale like build of Waverley, then feathering paddles would be used

Q4) Where might I find a set of suitable bolt-on bearings for the paddle wheel shaft?
A4) - the Small Parts & Bearings WEB site will confirm the availability of miniature plumber blocks complete with ZZ sealed stainless ball bearings

Q5) A wise gentleman at the International Model Boat Show last November advised me to always add extra hull depth below the waterline on paddle steamers to accommodate ballast and reduce their inherent instability. Do you agree, and if so, by how much on a model that will be about 1.5 metres in length?
A5) - the unit of measurement you are looking at is kilograms of weight of the hull + the sum of the weight of each & every subcomponent in your build…..this is the vessels displacement………your research will then alert you to the actual displacement of PS Waverley…….then compared to your planned 1:48 scale model……from there your choices will be clear…………………you will also learn about multiplying by the cube roof of the scale for such calculations ..............[although a little muddied]  :porkies

« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 10:43:01 AM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Peter Binns

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2018, 04:02:37 AM »
Dear Derek

Thank you for your welcome and for your comments on the initial questions I asked. Much appreciated. Can I respond as follows:

i) Yes, I am well-used to building large scale hulls plank (or in some cases plywood) on frame. In fact all my models so far were built plank on frame from scratch. It is a part of the process I enjoy and find the most satisfying. I will never buy pre-formed hulls!

ii) With regard to steam propulsion, I have no experience whatsoever, but I plan to invest in a ready-made Libra steam paddle plant from Clevedon Steam http://www.clevedonsteam.co.uk/products.html#Libra Paddle Plant Kit. However, I will have to learn how to couple it with the paddle wheels correctly etc.

iii) A1 - I've seen this mathematical rule elsewhere, but it seemed counter-intuitive for the scale rpm to be several times the rpm of the actual vessel's paddle wheels. This is what I found on another member's PD post:

'Standard practice is to multiply the rpm of the real ship by the square root of the scale to achieve a proper scale speed (i.e the speed at which the model will produce the same wave effect in miniature as does the real ship).

So for a model at 1:48 of, say, the current Waverley, the following would apply:

Maximum of Waverley's engine (in 1947) = 56rpm. Square root of 48 is 6.93. 
Model maximum rpm therefore 56 x 6.93 = 388 rpm.

Waverley's service speed rpm = 42.  Model equivalent is 291rpm.

These of course are rpm in the water.'

If this is correct then I will do what it says!

A2) I don't suppose I will uncover anything your members don't already know, but I will pursue Mike Mayhew and Clyde Model Boats for specific product details.

A3) Of course, I would prefer to be as true to life as possible, but I did read somewhere that in actual performance terms, feathering wheels would not make any difference on a model of this size. Open mind on this.

A4) Thanks for the advice.

A5) Ditto.

In the meantime I do hope others will chime in!

Peter Binns
Constantine Model Dockyard, Falmouth, Cornwall

Offline Mike

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2018, 05:47:47 AM »


  Hi Peter.

  Welcome to the forum.

  Have a look at my Jeanie Deans. A sister ship. It is 1 48th scale and about 65 inches long.
  I made my hull an extra 3/4 inch deep. In your one the weight of the steam plant and ALL
  the fittings and allow 4 lbs for above deck fittings plus a good safety margin. You will need
  to work out weight of boat against weight of water displaced. Not easy. Keep all weight as
  low as possible.
  In a wind of 3mph or less mine goes well but more wind and it will start to lean a bit.
  You will need 1 inch extra or more. It will also start to make the ship heavy to move.

  I made my own paddle wheels, Quite easy. On this ship they are non feathering but are
  there for show. They make very little difference to a model ship speed.
  On my Dromedary build they are working ones. It does look good when on show.
  I have a geared motor giving about 400 rpm. I find 150 to 200 rpm looks good and a scale
  speed.
  But a lot will be on the shape and size of paddles.
 
  In my ship I used stainless steel bearings in brass holders for the paddle shaft. It does
  make them very free running. And 5mm stainless spindle.
  Any questions please ask.

  Looking forward to seeing pictures of your build.

  Mike.

Offline Peter Binns

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2018, 07:03:37 AM »
Hi Mike

That's very helpful. Thank you. Just marshalling all the facts at present. Planning is everything. May be a little while before I lay a keel!

Regards

Peter

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2018, 10:41:09 AM »
Morning Peter....you seem to have your feet [& ideas] pretty firmly on the ground.....however the water can be rougher. choppy & unpredictable at times  :oops

The comments/experiences from Mike [as below] are an excellent yardstick being the sister to Waverley & the same scale

Mike has also provided an invaluable glimpse  :clap  into the required paddle shaft RPM......[this is also within the envelope of the scale relationship as mentioned]
 
The steam plant you are considering is I understand a reliably built unit  and the reputation of the builder is 2nd to none....you will need careful consideration of all the associated steam plant components.....and knowing the individual weights is of paramount importance  :nono

Having said this you will need to further research the no-load rpm of the 11 x 11 oscillator, and understand how you will reduce this speed to your desired paddle shaft RPM....including the important take off from rest  or ZERO RPM

Derek
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Peter Binns

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 11:05:55 PM »
Still in the detailed planning stage. I have scaled up the ex-MMI Waverley plans I bought to a true 1:48 which will make the model 1535mm in length. I have adapted the lines to make templates for the 12 bulkheads. These now allow for a 2mm thick skin, a 3mm sub-deck layer, 1mm 'teak' (tulip wood) caulked planking and a 1mm upstand at the edges whilst still being accurate to the plan's external dimensions.

There is, however, one failing of these plans (maybe the first of several?) which is that they do not include any fore or aft elevations, except for some detail of the fore and aft of the wheelhouse. Consequently, I have no reference to the extent of the curvature of the decks. The lines show the linear curve of the top of the hull between bulkheads which, of course, is not the same thing. Normally on model plans there is an indication on the side elevation of the height of the deck at the centre line relative to the height of the deck at the outside edges.

Public domain photos of the Waverley do not give any hint to the profile of the deck across the beam. Does anyone have an idea of what the difference should be between deck heights at the centre line and the outside edges on the Waverley?

Offline Peter Binns

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 11:07:34 PM »
Waverley bulkhead templates 1-6

Offline Peter Binns

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2018, 12:03:06 AM »
Well, a month or so on and my Waverley is taking on a recognisable shape. Just completing the frame using 25mm x 11mm pine for the keel, 4mm birch ply for the bulkheads, and 4 x 4mm sitka spruce stringers, all held together with waterproof wood glue.

The eagle-eyed amongst you will probably notice that the hull is somewhat deeper below the waterline than to scale. With the ‘lines’ scanned it was easy to stretch them vertically below the waterline to give an extra 20mm draught in order to improve stability in the water, accommodate ballast at the lowest point, and to permit adequate headroom below the main deck for the Clevedon Steam Libra boiler I intend installing.

There is something very satisfying about plank on frame construction which I wouldn’t get from buying a ready-made hull and building up from there. Having managed to get the frame reasonably true and straight, the next job is to sand it to ensure the 2mm ply skin will lie perfectly flat when it is applied - some as large panels, some as 25mm wide strips where a lot of bending in two directions is required. The currently very thick keel will be faired in with the planking, especially forward, to achieve the almost razor-like bow of the Waverley. Similarly, the aft end will be honed down to continue the curvature of the hull lines and be in line with the 4mm thick rudder, which is around 30% larger than to scale and should help with steering.

Meanwhile, the operators of the Waverley have granted me permission to go on board during the vessel’s over-wintering in Glasgow so I will soon be flying up to Scotland for a photo-gathering, measuring and detail recording recce.

Offline Hankwilliams

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 03:17:05 AM »
Hi Peter,

your hull looks very promising. My account of the 1 : 48 "China" built may be helpful also for your project. You will find it in Construction: Ambitious project - model of Irrawaddy paddler "China". It concludes a space of time from december 2015 to november 2017.

wish much succes
Thomas

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2018, 09:24:03 AM »
Peter...I understand it is only a few days since you asked the question about the fore & aft rise of deck, however suggest you resolve this prior to the commencement of planking as the deck level planking is one of the most important starting points ...and first planks laid  :hammer

Despite the thousands of images of Waverley on the WEB, none give a clear perspective of this.......I found this surprising as I had a mental image of this

Do your Plans in the Elevation view on your hardboard not reference this?.........I find it difficult to understand why this actual dimensional reference is not available...............models of PS Waverley must exist in their hundreds 

I have attached an image of Waverley with her reflection to further question the hull deck line?  :squareone

Derek

PS...the underwater transition aft of frame 9 on her stdb side appears too sharp......Waverley from dock images has smoothly contoured underwater lines ..same will probably have occurred on the port side

The photographs from her 2000 rebuild may assist  :kewlpics

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwid26bE8ezZAhXBVZQKHf7pAdYQFgg8MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.waverleyandbalmoral.co.uk%2FPSWaverley%2F&usg=AOvVaw1CV95ER5WDnjklGmN_lC_Q
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 04:24:18 PM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Peter Binns

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2018, 07:18:47 AM »
Derek,

Thank you for your comments and advice.

On the question of the correct deck curvature (port to starboard), no, the MMI plans I bought gave no reference for this, unlike all the other MMI plans I have purchased. Annoying, and as you say, there's nothing on the web that shows it clearly. To make my bulkheads I guestimated a curvature based on other similarly constructed ships I have built, but shortly I will have the opportunity to go on board the Waverley itself and see/measure for myself. The best clues so far have come from the attached old interior photos of the original build. Don't worry, I won't lay a single plank until I'm sure of the degree of curvature required. I can easily increase or reduce the curvature on my existing bulkheads accordingly.

I'm not sure how your photo with the reflection in the water helps re the deck curvature, unless you misunderstood my original question thinking it to relate to the 'upturn' at the bow and stern when viewed side-on. Anyway, it's a nice picture!

With regard to your observation about the underwater transition of the lines aft of frame 9, I think it's an optical illusion in my original photo. As you can see from more photos attached the lines are indeed smoothly contoured with no angles or kinks. But you can be the judge of that once I've skinned the hull!

Best wishes,

Peter

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2018, 05:14:15 PM »
Peter.....apologies.....I read your words without understanding  :oops......& was thinking about Waverley's lack of Hull Shear

With respect to  'deck curvature' ....did it not relate to the 'diminishing point of no return'?

[Not all that different to the neck/arm of a Violin or any other stringed musical instrument :offtopic ]

So .... :shhh... but this can be superimposed over the Shear without complication

Derek
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 05:26:38 PM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Talisman

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2018, 01:51:46 PM »
Hi Mike,
A wee personal message or email would get you to the info your looking for from Clyde Model Boats.

Anyway,
 I have  a traced set of original builders plans of Waverley, (1947) (More accurate than anything else comercially available) a set of Waverley wheel drawings, a hull for Waverley in development and scale feathering wheels or if cost is an issue i have non feathering wheels available.
Just send me an emial for more info -
mail@ clyde model boats .co.uk (missing out the spaces)
Regards,
Kim

Offline Peter Binns

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Re: My first paddle steamer project - PS Waverley
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2018, 09:39:51 PM »
Been spending the last few weeks skinning the hull of my Waverley with 2mm ply sheet and a couple of bits of balsa to shape at the stern. here's where I'm at right now - just timber, glue and an initial sanding. No filler yet.

Next steps are fill, sand, fill, sand, fill, sand etc, then apply two layers of epoxy resin with satin glass cloth for watertightness. Will also paint the inside with epoxy finishing resin.

More in a few weeks.

 :)

 

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