Working with brass

[Edward Matthews]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any experience of making brass parts for models? I
need to make a brass windscreen frame and some brass lettering but
have no idea how to go about it...

Can anyone help, or point me in the direction of a website that may
answer my questions?

Regards
Eddy

[Christian]

Hello Eddy,

There are basically four different kinds of brass parts for ship modeling.

1) photo etched brass (a brass foil photo etched from both sides). Typical
applications are handrails, ratlines and miscellanious parts on smaller
scales.
Sheets are available in an array of scales in both versions: generic or
for a specific ship.

Web sites of p/e brass manufacturers:

Gold Medal Models: http://goldmm.com/

Tom's Model works: http://www.tomsmodelworks.com/

White Ensign Models (British mail order dealer, also has own line of kits
and photo etched brass sheets:
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/

There is also the possibility of costom photo etching, which is much more
expensive. Here is a good contact of the best offer I ever had - I still
didn't order anything but I sure will:

Millennia Models International email: MMI@Coldnorth.com


2) cast brass. These are three dimensional objects such as fittings
(anchors, binnacles etc.) they are available from hobby stores and mail
order dealers.

3) turned brass. Usually for all kinds of objects that can be turned such as
masts, air horns, wheel pedestals etc. Same as above.

4) brass stock. Such as chains, wire and rods.
Good anchor chains are available at Blue Jacket ship crafters. Good brass
wire (I never can have enough of it, it is great for piping, handrails,
supports, you name it) is available at Detail Associates, San Luis
Obispo, CA. No web site. Please drop me an email: christian@xangrila.pt
if you need the address.


Unpainted brass is best glued with high quality CA glue, either liquid or
gel type, depending on application. Please make sure the brass is totally
clean and pure before gluing. This is best obtained by sanding lightly with
#600 sand paper prior to gluing. Brass doesn't hold paint as good as for
example styrene, epoxy resin or wood. It should be sanded prior to applying
paint as well. Sometimes a primer is recommendable, but some say they prefer
painting brass without it.

I hope this is of some help.

Happy modeling, Christian

[Edward Matthews]

Many thanks for all the info, I really appreciate it.... I guess what
I really need are photo etched parts. Do you know if it's possible to
do that (or another technique) at home using readily available
materials? Or am I in cloud cuckoo land for even asking? :-)

Regards
Eddy

[Christian]

You are most welcome. Please never be "afraid" asking anything. Everything I
know (which is not all that much) I learned from asking others.

I tried for quite some time to find out more about home brass photo etching.
I only came across one single article somewhere in which the guy was not too
happy with the results either. So I didn't keep it even on the drive. I wish
the guy all the luck...

I kept asking experienced modelers and no one ever even tried. Photo etching
brass is believed among modelers to be better left to custom photo etching
services. You see, even persons like Loren Perry, owner of Gold Medal Models
(and a great person) only designs the patterns at home on the computer. He
asks a specialized photo etcher to do his work. Ditto all others. That means
that most likely expensive equipment and toxic chemical products are
involved.

Maybe you could so some web surfing on model railroad sites. I already saw
some articles in Model railroader Magazine,

Web Site: modelrailroader.com

that included photo etching sheets for model locomotive parts such as cabins
and boilers including rivets. They didn't include the photo etching method
though.

You might want to take a look at available photo etched sheets first.

Tom's Model works for example have some great pictures of their product
online. Please scroll down to Brass detail sets and click on any category.
The underlined product names have pictures. Here's the URL:

http://www.tomsmodelworks.com/

Maybe you can glue existing parts together. Just an idea....

Sorry, that's all I know. Maybe somebody else could jump in for help.

Cheers, Christian

[Christian]

Eddy,

Sorry, forgot to add: fabricating your own brass parts is very complicated.
Even professionals mostly rely on existing parts or on the services of
specialized manufacturers for photo etching, lost wax casting and turning
depending on desired shape.

So you might want to look around first if the parts you are looking for are
readily available or can be made from existing parts and materials.

I don't know of any brass lettering available. Maybe on some photo etched
sheets you'll find some. If it doesn't need to be free standing, maybe gold
colored decal letter or dry transfer sheets will be what you need. If
there's a model railroad store near you, you might want to look there.

Here's a URL to "Woodlandscenics" dry transfer stripes and letters. Ideal
for ship modeling:

http://woodlandscenics.com/

Hope this helps

Cheers, Christian

[Christian]

Eddy,

Sorry, I sent the homepage as an URL. Here's the direct link to stripes and
letter dry transfers:

http://woodlandscenics.com/index.ihtml?p=/lln.htm

again: hope this helps

Cheers, Christian

[Derek Warner]

Hi paddlers - have been to South Australia again for the past week & saw a
little more about "from the source to the sea" - 17 paddlers on a two month
trip to the sea (near) Goolwa

Earlier last month PJ (pjships@hotmail.com) wrote

> The next trick comes if you need little screw/rivet bumps round the
> frames (and rivets ALWAYS look great on a model coz MOST people > never
put them in!)..well you can get > this by dimpling the reverse side of
> shim stock..in fact you might even consider CUTTING shim stock with
> scissors and

I think I posted some time ago re a simple method of adding look a like
rivet heads to brass shim as follows

Go to the milliner's store (sells curtain materials etc) & buy $A$3.52, a
tracing wheel - wooden handle with a 5/8" diameter star wheel (32 points) on
the diameter - just get a wooden/plastic ruler & scribe hull plate rivet
lines on the reverse of actual

A few preparatory steps include

1) pre sand (#400 W&D) both sides of the shim surface (gives paint primer
a surface to bight to on externals)
2) may help to use 6 sheets of newspaper under the shim - then trial & error
pressure because the points will pierce 0.003" shim
3) the external protrusions of (the rivet heads) are very easily damaged -
so can be soft solder filled on the reverse - remember the idea is to fill
in the indentations, so you will end up with a much smoother thin uniform
solder coating if you use liquid solder flux as opposed to resin cored
solder etc

regards Derek

[george britnell]

To Eddy and all Paddleducks,
I had stated in one of my messages that my other hobby is miniature
engine building and miniatures of almost anything that catches my
fancy. I just recently got into boat building when I completed the
Suter.
As was mentioned in one of the replies there are different types of
brass fabrications. The one I do the most of is machining and
fabricating.
Lets start with the brass letters. First of all what size are you
talking about? (height and thickness) Do you need something of
photoetched thickness? What is it going to be used for? If you live
near a city that sells foundry supplies they usually carry a variety
of cast brass letters for patternmaking. The letters and numbers have
a triangular section to them so they can cast over them but a person
could file them down to get a flat shape. The best way to handle them
is to soft solder them to a flat piece of brass which can then be
held in a vise while the milling or filing takes place. I've used
this technique and it works quite well. As for photoetching I have
never tried it but have read just about everthing I could on the
subject. If your hobby is boat modeling and you choose to photoetch
you are learning another hobby completely. When I build a model
engine I buy certain items that would take too much time to make or
the initial investment in tooling just couldn't be justified for the
amount of future use. A case in point is making certain gears like
miter gears. Do I buy them commercially made or buy or make the
tooling to produce a handfull over the course of my modeling career.
Some people like to say that they made every part on their model. God
bless them. With most hobbies we buy certain aftermarket parts
because we just don't have the tools or abilities.
As for the windscreen, here again what size are you talking about?
If you have ever followed model car building there is a gentleman
named Gerald Wingrove. He builds the most meticulouslly detailed
miniature automobiles that you have ever seen. He has several books
showing how he goes about fabricating and building these masterpieces.
He shows you how to solder bits and pieces together to form different
components. As with the photoetching, how many different crafts do
you want to learn. I needed lettering or decals for my model boat so
I started out by looking for the dry transfer type at first. I
remember years ago when I did a lot of advertising and art work a
person could buy virtually and letter style and shape he needed. Well
with the home computer and many art and lettering programs around dry
transfers have just about disappeared so when I saw an ad in Scale
Auto Magazine for making your own decals I thought what the heck. I
bought the kit and gave it a try. After many tries I got something
that was useable. Would I do it again? No! I'm not saying that it
isn't fun to try new aspects of model building but there are only a
dedicated few that can do most things, the key word here is most.
Even the best still don't do everything. There are just too many
skills to learn. Do what you do best and expand on that but also
realize that some things are best left to the people that are pro's
in there respective fields. As for your windscreen, buy some model
brass material (angles,tubes etc.) and give it a go. The hardest part
is visuallizing what it is you want and how you go about assembling
it. Sometimes soft solder (50/50) works. Sometimes superglue (CA)
works. Anyway, if you need any specific information please get in
touch with me and I will be happy to lend my 40 years of modeling
experience with you.
Sincerely,
George Britnell

[rpayne8452]

Eddy-
A year or so ago one of the other lists mentioned an article on home photo
etching. The address is:
http://members.home.net/vmss/tips/pe.html

I read it and then figured that buying from Gold Medal would be cheaper than
trying to do it myself. Plus the learning curve. Seems like everytime I
start a model, there is something else new and exciting to learn. I got
$35.00. I'll just by the stuff!

Good luck.
smilesmilesmile
bob
san antonio

[Edward Matthews]

Many thanks for the URL Bob.... It's an interesting article, and it
sounds like making my own etched brass parts is feasible. I'll see if
I can find the necessary materials in the UK...

Does anyone know of a UK source for the stuff needed (as listed in
the URL Bob gave above)?

Regards
Eddy

[Paulrjordan]

Hi guys!

The URL you are refering to is none other than my own Club's Website,
The Victoria Model Shipbuilding Society.
http://members.home.net/vmss/
I have emailed our Webmaster to find out who wrote the article and see
if this person can shed any more light on the subject.

A thought here...I photoetch my own circuit boards and the best stuff
I've found for etching comes from Radio Shack. I also use dry
transfer lettering to etch copper "nameboards" out of PCB. Here's a
thought for your letters. Just supposing you were able to super glue
thin brass onto PCB backing and, masking the letters with dry
transfer, etch just the brass ? You'd then remove the PCB backing and
presto..brass letters, at least IN THEORY! The trick is to get no
etchant of the front or back surfaces of the "letter". When I get a
sec (good luck!!) I'll try it and let you know.

Eddy...you have the FINEST photoetchers in the world right there in
the UK..in fact many of our Canadian photoetch companies send their
patterns to the UK for etching. There must be someone who does up
some PE brass letters. (we have numbers for Canadian National Steam
locomotives!). And if you can't find any stock product, if you can do
up the artwork, they can etch what you want. Just pick up a model RR
mag and have a look at producers of fine scale brass etched passenger
cars (carriages!). There's a real nice lady I met just north of
Brighton, Sussex who does fantastic work..and not incredibly expensive
either IF you supply the camready artwork. It's very much a cottage
industry there.

We also have Loren Perry of "Gold Medal" fame who lives on an Island
right next to us here in Victoria.

Other options for "brass lettering" ..Slaters have a range of plastic
letters which can be sanded down flat. Once you have them to the
correct thickness, apply metal modeling foil in brass or copper. We
have it here in North America under the "Bare Metal Foil" brand and
its used extensively by aircraft and auto model makers. Easy to use
and looks just like real metal..it's FANTASTIC STUFF.

Check out their website with LOTS of HOW-To's and pictures at
http://www.bare-metal.com/

BMF doesn't seem to have brass but they have gold..but if you want
REAL GOLD, you can get real gold leaf which at your local art supply
store.

Now fow your window frames....I'd be tempted to make a pattern up on
the pooter, print it out and stick it down on the correct thickness
brass. I'd then get working with drill, Dremel and files..I might
even contact glue a number of sheets together and do them at the same
time, but using a drill press to give me the starting holes.
The next trick comes if you need little screw/rivet bumps round the
frames (and rivets ALWAYS look great on a model coz MOST people never
put them in!)..well you can get this by dimpling the reverse side of
shim stock..in fact you might even consider CUTTING shim stock with
scissors and "VENEERING" it onto a brass painted backing piece made of
plastic.

Geez..look at the time..it's 3 am AGAIN!! Good luck and let us know
how you get on...

PJ

PS Thanks to ALL Paddleducks who responded to Eddy's RFI...that's what
this group is all about..so feel free to PITCH in with ANY experience
or info you can contribute ..no matter how small. Hearing your
thoughts and ideas is what counts.