Saito Delta Queen Build

[mjt60a]

...just wondering (assuming I'm not completely missing the problem that is...) are all four identical or are there two 'pairs' as it were, with the screw holes on opposite sides since the port cranks will be on the other way round compared to the starbd ones...
...could you re-drill and thread new holes on the other side of them - or at the opposite side to the bit the pitman arm goes on...
...just a thought

[ir3]

Hi PD'rs,

Unfortunately I do not have the necessary measuring items that Derek mentioned above.  I will just have to go with what I have hoping that Saito got it right or very close to right when they did the run in. I assume the exercise is to show that the two cranks are exactly 90 degrees apart.

Yes, the picture of the cranks and the location of the grub screws is correct. The problem is that the offsets are not exactly equal. If they were, there would be no problem since any error at the paddle wheel would be cancelled by exactly the same error at the engine output shafts. I need to spend some more time on this problem. The drag is very slight and I just might get away with it. There is a YouTube video of someone running the DQ and it appears that there are Pitman Arm alignment problems with that one also.

I spent a good part of the day today rearranging the servo for the rudders. The old position led to a very sloppy push rod. In the new configuration, no slop at all. Another hitch is in the two aft rudders. The two shaft housings must be placed in such a way as to make sure the rudders clear the Paddle Wheel. This results in the aft rudder bell cranks being too low.  :41A long screw and some nuts fixed this problem. The aft rudders are controlled with spring loaded steel wire to do the actuating. A real headache to setup but now close enough to be functional. Saito could have done a better job on this.

Now it is off to the forward part of the hull and installation of the boiler, burner, etc. I am sure I will have some questions.

Until next time,

Iran

[derekwarner_decoy]

ir3......if the problem is as Mick noted in his posting Today at 05:39:33 AM....as he suggested you could acurately drill & tap new M3 tappings on the oposite side of the cranks......

Your local hobby shop will have a DUBRO M3 tap & tapping drill set No372 for less that $10US

You would need a method of supporting the cranks for marking out & then drilling truly vertical in a drill press....

..or thinking more about what was mentioned.. ..could you have two differing sets of pairs?  ....Derek 

[ir3]

Hi PD'rs,

Amazing what brainstorming can accomplish. 

1. Oddly enough, the cranks are slightly different but in pairs. Matching up the pairs starts to free up the Paddle Wheel rotation.

2. If I could read, I would have seen that the Pitman arms must be parallel! By adjusting the cranks on the shafts I was able to get them parallel. It's getting better.

3. The bolts that fasten the Pitman arms to the cranks were too tight. Another source of drag.

4. Finally, there was a bit of drag caused by contact of the Pitman arm bolts with surrounding structure.

5. It is now turning as loosely as I can get it for now and it will probably be ok. 

6. Moral. It takes a lot of patience and adjusting to get it right.

On to installing the boiler and associated gear.

Iran

[ir3]

Hi PD'rs,

Just started on the boiler room. A few questions.

1. From the picture, connecting the high pressure line has a problem. I would like to bend the high pressure line from the boiler to mate with the line supplied by Saito in the kit. Why Saito did not solve this problem is a mystery. Can I bend the high pressure line from the boiler to mate with the Saito supplied line. The copper line from the boiler does not appear to be very malleable and could break. There is a picture of this line being oriented correctly in another Delta Queen installation.

2. In the assembly drawing there appears to be an oil reservoir for the smoke generator, upper right. I scanned the internet for anything like this either under the Saito name or others and have found nothing. Any suggestions?

3. It seems that installing a pressure gauge would be a good thing to do. There is a Saito part that fits this boiler.

4. In the Saito burner configuration is there any way to install a failsafe if the boiler runs out of water. I realize that I will have to do some experimenting to find out just how much time I can spend on the water but would like a backup just in case.

Thanks once again,

Iran

[derekwarner_decoy]

 .......but ir3 something is amis........seems I have said this before

In 032jpg...it appears that steam from the steam dome exits the boiler by a 90 degree steam regulator...but the copper tube dips back down into the boiler [simple for of higher temperature steam dryer/heater] & back out of the chimney stack

Can this small tube set be removed?...can it be re-oriented? I cannot see Saito bending the tube at the wrong connection angle 

In 031.jpg....I see the small container [extreme right boiler end]...and also see the representation of the supply line back to the boiler top connection between the relief valve & the regulator for the pressure gauge - the installation of a pressure gauge is a necessity & not a luxury


In 032.jpg I also see a supply  line from the boiler to the small container ......what do the instructions say about this component?....was it supplied?

In 031.jpg I do not understand the signifience of the four black [synthetic] tubes from the boiler to the chimney stack...does the boiler have two steam relief valves?

Do you have the ability to silver solder copper or brass capillary tubing? 5/32" or 1/8" OD

I would not attempt to use DUBRO tube benders on any of my Y2DR tubing [4.0 mm OD brass] ........

The French [ANTON] produce gas regulators & fail safe valving ...but not suitable for installation with alternate liquid fuel systems........Derek

[ir3]

Hi PD'rs ... Derek ...

I will try to answer as best I can. The line from the steam dome into the stack is for the Smoke Generator. There is a 3 turn coil of brass/copper that is used to heat the smoke oil. There is a heat exchanger in the end cap that the smoke oil passes through. The smoke oil tank is an accessory and not included in the kit or boiler/steam engine package.

The item of interest in the upper right corner of the drawing and the line coming out of the end of the boiler is the low pressure line coming from the smoke oil tank. The high pressure line for the smoke oil tank comes from a high pressure source on the top of the boiler.

The black synthetic hose lines going to the stack are from each of the vents on the boiler, burner fuel tank and a steam whistle port. The large black tubing is from the drain tank. The boiler has a steam release valve and there is an overflow valve in the filler cap.

The bend in question of the tube coming back out of the stack opening is unusual. Not only is it not oriented properly for the installation in the DQ but the bend is so tight that there is some constriction. Not too good for maximum steam flow.

I can do some silver soldering if I must fabricate some brass tubing.

I am including pictures of the end cap of the boiler for clarification (ignore the eraser halves!!!).

Pressure gauge is on order.

Thanks,

Iran

P.S.
Just as an add on, upon reading the instructions this boiler is not specifically intended for the DQ. The instructions talk about the Hercules, Kamome, Polar Star, and Chiba Star but not the DQ. So, a modification will be necessary.

[derekwarner_decoy]

  ....just thinking ir3...... decision time?.....

1. one posible solution in getting steam from the boiler to the Y2DR is to cut & shut the steam discharge line
2. if you accept that this must be done I suggest you consider cutting away the bent SAITO tube sections so all of the joints will not require bending....or would require bending in one plane only
3. select two layers of K&S brass or copper telescopic tubing to match up with your SAITO 4.0 mm pressure tubing
4. make slip fit spool pieces + add one 90 degree 5/16 tube to tube elbow will match your 4.0 mm SAITO tubing
5. silver solder the joints & spool pieces etc
6. from the SAITO setup it appears that you must rely on the boiler 90 degree steam regulator to isolate steam from the engine.....so the addition of a steam isolation valve would also be good insurance......Derek

[ir3]

Hi PD'rs ... Derek...

Parts are on order. While waiting, back to completion of the lower cabin, windows, doors, paint. 

Until next time,

Iran

[derekwarner_decoy]

  just while you are .....  there ir3........

The nice people from DUBRO also manufacture 1/8" & 5/32" OD tube benders & they are not expensive compared to the numerous crushed or crinkled bends that are created ..... .....as scrap 

Copper tubing is clearly understood as heated to light cherry red & allowing to air cool to aneal prior to bending

Brass tubing is less tolerant  ....however I use the same procedure prior to bending

Clearly.....without these benders I could not have produced my 1/8"& 5/32" diameter tube spools to the steam gauge and condenser tube bends etc......Derek 

  ....those Phillips head screws in the condensor base are only temporary  ...awaiting M3 hex head S/S screws......

[ir3]

Hi PD'rs

Thanks for the heads up on the tubing benders. I would use them to make a 180 degree loop to solve the problem of fitting the high pressure line but it seems that the straighter the lines are the better. BTW, excellent work on the boiler and the pressure gauge lines.

Until next time,

Iran

[ir3]

Hi PD'rs,

Need a little help. I just received my order of fittings from Modellbau Niggle. I did not realize that the fittings I ordered had fine threads but the Saito fittings have course threads and a slightly larger nut.

I will not be able to cut off the nut at the bend in question. The bend is so bad that the pipe is heavily dimpled. I will not have a good surface to braze to and I am afraid of leaks. I think the bend must stay in. I believe that Modellbau Niggle has appropriate adapters to go from the Saito threads to the fine threads on the fittings I ordered.

I can use one of the adapters that he indicates couples a steam line to water a line. One example, but not the one I will use is part number M4 / Ø 3 mm 110 340. A fitting of this type would allow me to couple the Saito coarse thread fitting with the fine threads on the shut off valve that I am going to install.

I will have to make up a 180 degree piece of tubing to change the direction of the  high pressure line and route it back to the line that was supplied in the kit. This should be OK, I just don't like the idea of a bend in the high pressure line and the 180 degree turnabout.

Saito does not spec the threads on the boiler and steam engine fittings. If someone can supply me with that spec I can order some more parts.

Thanks,

Iran

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's........... ir3........
a. the Saito compression fittings appear to seal on a circular knife edge back into the mating component seat
b. I am sure Winfried could manufacture a screwed transition piece...but you would have to accurately nominate the thread diameter + thread angle + TPI
c. I have just checked the male thread form on the steam entry union nut on my Y2DR....it measures 6.86 mm diameter x 0.5 mm pitch..........
d. I would not be suprised if Saito produced certain non standard metric thread forms...also remember the Saito Drawings are 14.01.1961 or yes 50 years old....
e. it is clearly known that neither Japanese metric nor German metric nor French metric nor British BA thread form [which is metric] are interchangeable with any or each other.........it is only when you get to ISO metric thread form where interchangeability exists
f. interestingly the M3 brass hex head bolts that secure the Y2DR to it's base measure 2.96/2.93 shank to thread ...& this would be a common undersized dimension for M3.........

I am going to check 6.86 metric thread form

I still think that cut + shut + silver solder is the preferred option.....& aplaud your choice of  fittings supplier.......Derek

[ir3]

Hi PD'rs,

Shutoff valve is installed.  Derek.    Yes, cut + shut + silver solder was the best and simplest way to go. The connection coming out of the stack to the valve was a bit difficult as this piece of tubing was not perfectly round but the silver soldering filled in nicely. I can see where Steam Fitting can become an addiction.

Back to construction     until the pressure gauge arrives.

Until next time,

Iran

[derekwarner_decoy]

Oh dear PD's........ ...please correct me if I am incorrect here ir3

1.0 silver soldering & resulant is a goldish colour @ the joint
2.0 soft soldering [40/60] resulant is a silver/bluish colour @ the joint
2.1 soft soldering [40/60] is only OK for say 115 degrees C..........our model boilers produce 150 degrees C
2.3 am I correct in seeing the silver/bluish colour @ the joints between the isolation valve & tubing?
2.4 .........if so we all need to talk...... .....Derek