Paddlewheels

[Talisman]

Hi,

I have just read through this fascinating thread, and will add some thoughts.

Many thanks

Like you Kim and Eddy I have given thoughts to making paddle wheels, and other componants available, making the hobby pay for itself rather than a true business idea I suppose, but as I have not had opportunity to build anything for a couple of years I have been busy researching and thinking through many ideas rather than putting any of them into practise.

Unfortunately i believe the taxman take the view that if you produce anything with the intention of selling then it is considered a business

I think to succeed with paddle wheels, research into what people most frequently build might be the best place to start, then aim the product at them. for example, 1:48 scale Waverley's and 1:32 scale Paddle Tugs are probally (I havent done the research on this, only into the specific ships I have been drawing up) amongst the most common paddler models, so, I would consider getting plans of the Waverley's paddles and making a good kit of them, that ship will always be popular, and very similar wheels were used by the other LNER ships so the product would appeal to those building say the Talisman from the Metcalf hull. (This is just an example, when actually adding up numbers others types of ship might be more popular!!)

Looking at the allready commercially available hulls then the three styles i am initially considering would be very suitable.

For me, this appeals more than tryin to make a generic paddle, or range of generic paddles as the real ships wheels were so varied that the generic design would make do for many, but be acurate for only a few. Tugs may well have had a lesser ranger of wheels than the longer distance steamers, so maybe finding out the most common size and number of floats and making a good kit for that would be a good starting place, if it was me considering goin ahead with this, that is the sort of way I would go about my research....

My gut feel and based on what i see sailing then most people build tugs, coastal steamers and the majority (although this may be a result of my location / plans available) Clyde steamers??

I also strongly think photo-etching is worth serious consideration, I am looking into this just now to get wheels made up for my 1:32 Jeanie Deans, I would look into making available once Im back in production everything I design and make for my own models to the public, not just paddle wheels but hulls and fittings too, seems to me a nice way to build up a range of products you're interested in and have each project you work on pay for itself, or at least have costs paid towards it without having to foot any cost up fron other than those involved in building the model for yourself the first time round. I got this idea a while back when reading a blog of a model warship enthusiast who did exactly this to fund his ever bigger projects!

Yep my mind is allreaddy wandering onto 'other posibilities' everything i had planned for my cnc machine seems to be adaptable for etching

Wow, that wasn't meant to be an essay, hope it helpful to someone in someway, all the best with the research! cheers

Many thanks for taking the time to post
Kim

Attached ideas for the initial 3 desings

1. Paddle tug wheels
2.rimmed wheels
3. rimless wheels

[greateastern]

The beauty of the etching process is that nothing need be for sale and therefore the taxman need not concern himself with your enterprise.. Eveyone just shares their part of the total cost--4 sets of wheels---4 people. Easy. The joy is that the brass con contain 4 different wheels because the drawings come from CAD and can be scaled and modified before the negative is made. The whole sheet of brass can be filled with whatever you draw. ventilators in extra spaces, ladders, benches, rigols, port hole surrounds, lattice work,  you name it. Very little goes to waste with some planning. Anything that is needed in multiples. Brian King even does ships boat parts. Brass can also be soldered-glued-- so thicknesses can be made greater than the initial sheet thickness.

[ancoaster78]

The beauty of the etching process is that nothing need be for sale and therefore the taxman need not concern himself with your enterprise.. Eveyone just shares their part of the total cost--4 sets of wheels---4 people. Easy. The joy is that the brass con contain 4 different wheels because the drawings come from CAD and can be scaled and modified before the negative is made. The whole sheet of brass can be filled with whatever you draw. ventilators in extra spaces, ladders, benches, rigols, port hole surrounds, lattice work,  you name it. Very little goes to waste with some planning. Anything that is needed in multiples. Brian King even does ships boat parts. Brass can also be soldered-glued-- so thicknesses can be made greater than the initial sheet thickness.

Excellent points all, further, with such a quick production time, no need to hold products in stock, or spend a lot up front, simply take an order/request and make to order, simple! Etching is becoming more and more appealing all the time....

Thos paddlewheels you have posted photos of Kim look excellent, on the LNER ones it looks like you have got the spokes correctly angled inwards towards the hub and everything? I have drawn mine to do so, but, not yet figured out how to mark the holes on the hub ends of the spokes as not sure how to ensure they are in exactly the right place after bending, what with metal strectchign slightly as its bends etc, ideas anyone?!

[Talisman]

The beauty of the etching process is that nothing need be for sale and therefore the taxman need not concern himself with your enterprise.. Eveyone just shares their part of the total cost--4 sets of wheels---4 people. Easy.

Very good point. 
 

The joy is that the brass con contain 4 different wheels because the drawings come from CAD and can be scaled and modified before the negative is made. The whole sheet of brass can be filled with whatever you draw. ventilators in extra spaces, ladders, benches, rigols, port hole surrounds, lattice work,  you name it. Very little goes to waste with some planning. Anything that is needed in multiples. Brian King even does ships boat parts. Brass can also be soldered-glued-- so thicknesses can be made greater than the initial sheet thickness.

Yep i have started doing some drawings and it is like playing Tetris with boat parts

[Talisman]

Excellent points all, further, with such a quick production time, no need to hold products in stock, or spend a lot up front, simply take an order/request and make to order, simple! Etching is becoming more and more appealing all the time....

Yep, until recently i  thought all parts would need to be cnc cut one way or another. Etching does look like the smart way to go.
Just got to figure a way of accurately moulding a hub assembly now.

Thos paddlewheels you have posted photos of Kim look excellent, on the LNER ones it looks like you have got the spokes correctly angled inwards towards the hub and everything? I have drawn mine to do so, but, not yet figured out how to mark the holes on the hub ends of the spokes as not sure how to ensure they are in exactly the right place after bending, what with metal strectchign slightly as its bends etc, ideas anyone?!

Many thanks, Both the rimmed and un rimmed wheels are bent to shape.
Not sure how my dad did it on the rimmed paddles but i took a slightly less scientific route no doubt. I made the hub slightly bigger than the drawing, bent the 'legs' then drilled the holes on the hub to suite.
Thanks Guys for your thoughts Very helpfull.
Kim

[ancoaster78]

[
Just got to figure a way of accurately moulding a hub assembly now.

I intend to cast mine out of white metal, have bought the home casting kit and book on the subject already, make the master out of wood, a mould from the master out of something i cant remember wot, the book will tell me when i need to know, (lego and plaster ring a bell in my mind, book not to hand just now so can't check till later) and then happily cast as many hubs as I want, secure in the knowedge that as the originals were also castings, they will be as realistic as possible! cheap too, we all like that!!!!

Cheers 

[Talisman]

[
Just got to figure a way of accurately moulding a hub assembly now.

I intend to cast mine out of white metal, have bought the home casting kit and book on the subject already, make the master out of wood, a mould from the master out of something i cant remember wot, the book will tell me when i need to know, (lego and plaster ring a bell in my mind, book not to hand just now so can't check till later) and then happily cast as many hubs as I want, secure in the knowedge that as the originals were also castings, they will be as realistic as possible! cheap too, we all like that!!!!

Cheers 

Hi i had thought of that method but the weight put me off .
Ant thoughts on a simple but robust / effective way of attaching to the shaft would be good to hear.
Thanks
Kim

Weight

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's......... ....ancoaster78  posts....... "I intend to cast mine out of white metal & have bought the home casting kit and book on the subject already""

ancoaster78....when we look at the table for 'white metal' as below we see....the lower line brew for 'general purpose work' contains 48.5% [plumbonium] or for us commerners Pb or lead

% Sn  % Sb  % Cu  % Pb Applications
93 3.5 3.5 - Light and medium IC engine big end bearings
86 10.5 3.5 - Light and medium IC engine main bearings
80 11 3.0 6 General purpose heavy bearings (lead increases plasticity)
60 10 28.5 1.5 Heavy duty marine engine bearings, electrical machines
40 10 1.5 48.5 Low cost, general purpose, medium duty bearings


....I bought a home brewing kit and book on a differing subject   & look what happened    ....but white metal wheels irrespective of the %'s as above will be too heavy & too soft..............

From  experience  .....the [40 10 1.5 48.5%] is near impossible to apply any 90/10 Pb/Sn soft solder to correct any faults......with the parent material literally melting away prior to fluidization of the 90/10 filler......Derek

[ancoaster78]

Excellent points Derek, thanks for the warning. It is only the hubs I am intenting to cast, not the whole wheel, the spokes and rims will all be brass or aluminium, dependant on wieght tolerances. I think at 1:32 scale, the scale I am using, cast hubs should be ok? Please do warn me some more if you think not, would much prefer to know now than when its too late!!!!

As for the soldering, I not intending to do any, but use bolts. That should nicely side step that dilemma  

As for the home brewing, i take the warning seriously and will steer clear, you just saved me a lot of trouble, cheers!  

Kim, as for weight in other scales, maybe some form of resin casting is the way to go, like they make small scale model ships with, I had a few I sold on ebay last year, they were pretty rigid and but light, much much lighter than the metal ones I also had. I've read it will take a screw as well, and can be drilled/filed etc. I've not researched it very far, as very keen to try and make the metal work, unless people don't think even hubs in metal at my scale will work, the resin has been in back of my mind as a back up plan!

I have two thoughts on fitting to the shaft, the simplest being a bolt thro the hub and shaft, simple and failsafe surely? But my prefered method is as per the real ship, some kind of taper to the end of the shaft, with key pin and locking nut, havnt figured out the exact details yet, but theres some great photos in the Waverley rebuild diarys on www.pswaverley.org.uk will get to that in time....

[Talisman]

A busy day today...

I spent a considerable time in front of the computer and on the phone ....
Results -

1. I have completely redrawn my Talisman wheels on the computer to include rods drive disk and hub.

2. Sourced a supplier of M1 threaded rod , M1 nuts and bolts in quantity and cost that is not prohibitive to making the kits commercially

3. Turned a suitable hub as a plug for casting.

4. Created a moulding box and cast my first half of a suitable hub mold

5. Spoke to a possible etching manufacturer who is willing to carry out the work in small quantities.

6.Took the dog for a walk and had dinner.


Question
I'm no draughtsman or computer whizz so my accuracy is maybe not wt hat of a professional However (as can be seen in attached pic, smaller circle is 0.597mm i/dia)  I'm only out in a few places by about max 0.3mm.

Surely that is an acceptable tolerance for most modellers?

[Eddy Matthews]

0.3mm Kim - Good grief, if you hadn't mentioned it I doubt anyone would have ever known!!

If I can make something that's within 3mm I'd be happy!

Regards
Eddy

[sandystrone]

Sorry Eddy,
but I have to disagree with you about fixed float paddle wheels on a model.
The WAVERLEY that Walter Snowdon has, originally had fixed blades and it created a lot of choking in the sponson boxes until I made and fitted my own design of feathering wheels, and there was a marked improvement in performance, and battery life.         
                   Sandy

[Eddy Matthews]

Sorry Eddy,
but I have to disagree with you about fixed float paddle wheels on a model.
The WAVERLEY that Walter Snowdon has, originally had fixed blades and it created a lot of choking in the sponson boxes until I made and fitted my own design of feathering wheels, and there was a marked improvement in performance, and battery life.          
                   Sandy

No need to say sorry Sandy, I don't have a problem if someone disagrees with me, as long as it's done in a friendly and constructive way as your comment was....

The choking in the paddleboxes I can understand, but was the improvement in performance (ie acceleration or top speed) due to the removal of the choking, or the feathering wheel? I still feel that a feathering wheel gives little in the way of better acceleration or speed as long as there aren't other issues involved as in your example.

Whilst a 1 or 2 percent increase in efficiency is worthwhile on a full sized ship - In terms of better speed and more importantly better economy, is it really noticable on a model? Unless it's alleviating another symptom? I still have my doubts...

Having said that, I'd still prefer to have feathering floats on a model if that was what the full sized ship had, purely so it looks right!

Regards
Eddy

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's......Talisman...."Took the dog for a walk and had dinner"

 ...does this imply the dog ate his/her dinner or you ate your dinner? 

1) I must be thick but cannot understand the relevence of the RED lines superimposed over the black lines
2) Is it that I am in the southern hemisphere & see the RED at the bottom when in fact they would display at the top in the northern bit of the world?
3) Or is it that I may have too many 

 .....Derek

[Talisman]

Hi All,

Interesting point Sandy. My dad had problems with his feathering 'spooned' paddlewheels until he increased the ventilation to the paddle boxes so perhaps this method could be used with fixed paddle floats.

Derek
I ate my dinner and the dog ate his dinner and some of mine

1. I should have explained drawing better - red line is the outline of the paddlewheel as drawn by me, the black circle is drawn as a template and the black straight lines are as positioning tools. How clear have i made the mud?

2 Perhaps


3. as above