Prices of steam engines

[kno3]

Hello everybody!

Inspired by the discussion in this topic,
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3516.0
I'd like to suggest a discussion about the prices of model marine steam engines which are self starting, and especially if and how decent quality engines can be produced at a reasonable price.
The current situation on the steam engine market is such, that high make it impossible for many steam engine enthusiasts impossible to afford one, especially if they are young and don't make much money.
You could also use this topic for gathering information about steam engines currently available on the market, so it is easier for people to compare models, features and prices.

My take is that using CNC machines and a design that is simple to manufacture, could allow for a reasonably priced engine.

I think there are two niches:

1. Self-starting/reversing marine steam engines up to 100 Euro - these could be 2 cylinder oscillating engines.
There is a 2-cylinder oscillator available from PM Research, for 159 USD, which is around 103 Euro.
http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/product.php?productid=3649&cat=3&page=1

2. Salf-starting/reversing marine engines of the more complex variety, with valve gear, in the 200 Euro range.
There is only one close to that mark that I know of - the Graham TVR1A 2-cylinder steam engine with Hackworth valve gear:
http://www.grahamind.com/tvr1a.html
This is the best offer that I know of on the market at the moment, for a complex steam engine with reversing etc. It costs 245 USD as a kit, which is about 160 Euro at the current exchange rate!!! I guess some taxes might be added for those in Europe. Ready-built it costs 350 USD, so about 230 Euro.
I don't know how Mr. Graham manages to produce at these prices, but I hope it will be a motivation for other manufacturers too. I have ordered one of his kits too and will be building it soon.

Let's hear your opinions and suggestions.

[bogstandard]

Kno,

I would like to butt in here if I may.

To make a simple single acting oscillator, similar to the Mamod type could be made for a few euro. To make a DOUBLE acting oscillator, which is required for reliable self starting and reversing, doesn't just quadruple the pricing (four power strokes) but most probably puts it towards the ten times figure. There is a lot more work and components required for such an engine.

Willesco produce such model boat engines, but I honestly don't think you would be happy having one in a model of yours.

Anyone can make a cheaply produced engine if there is a market for them, and is willing to skimp on material selection and quality, or can overstock in the hope they will sell.

It is easy going down the CNC argument. A lot of small machining shops have gone out of business because they thought they could make components a lot cheaper. What they didn't realise is that unless the machine is working almost flat out 24 hours a day, then the machine and operator costs will pull you under.

Get the bits made outside by a CNC machine shop. Great if you can place an order for a thousand off of each part, but small steam manufacturers can't afford to have that much stock in hand, so have to place a smaller order, which makes the cost of parts jump dramatically. It is not material costs that are the worry on that score, but by machine setting costs, about 80 to 100 euro per hour or part of an hour, before even producing anything.

The way a lot of manufacturers get around this high cost of production parts is to use the same components in a range of models. You will even find this happens in the motoring industry, they buy from people like Bosch or Champion for standard off the shelf parts.

I know all this because I have worked in these industries, and I even produce a small batch each year of reasonably priced but very high quality oscillating engines. But if it were calculated out to include the true cost of my time, I would be out of business tomorrow.

I honestly don't think you have taken all things into consideration on your quest.

John

PS. I think you will find that Mr Graham keeps his prices low by using incompatible materials and suspect quality control.

[kno3]

I am not saying I have taken everything into consideration. I don't know enough about manufacturing etc. for that. But I hope to find out more through this discussion.
Yes, making or ordering a few hundreds or thousands of parts at a time is the way to keep prices low. I just hope somebody has the money to go down that route and produce a good engine at a low price.

As a matter of fact I am using one of the Wilesco engines in the boat I am currently building. It is the model D49. At the time I bought it (this was several years ago) I was still a student and couldn't afford something more expensive. Today I would say it is a overpriced for what it is. The quality isn't outstanding, but the engine, after tweaking it a bit, works well (so far). I'll let you know how it turns out after the boat is finished.

What exactly is incompatible in the Graham engine? So far, by looking at the parts in the kit, it seems very carefully manufactured.

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's.....kno3...I think the comments from both Nick [Monahan] & John [bogstandard] reinforce a few basic fundementals in both engineering & cost structures in life....

If you pay $10.00 & get junk  then so be it.........if you pay $100.00 & it is quality ...you are rewarded with the  ....

Do you think that your local bank ....@ Berlin & Bucharest would finance a manufacturer to produce & hold thousands of model steam engine parts just waiting for an order from you for one engine? -  Derek

[steamboatmodel]

The only way to get a low priced steam engine is to make one your self and not count your time.
Regards,
Gerald.

[kno3]

Derek, the problem is that many times you pay a lot and still get junk. I don't want to imply that this happens with the manufacturers mentioned here. And very seldom you might have the chance to buy something cheap that is of very good quality.
The price is no guarantee for quality.

I just hope that manufacturers can give us some input on what is possible or not.

Gerald, I guess you might be right about that. However, if you have to buy your own tools, then the price exceeds even the expensive engines.

[Monahan Steam Models Inc.]

Hi Pd's

One thing I think we must keep in mind with quality made steam engines is that there are really small investments when you stop and think about it.

Chances are, that a high quality steam engines will last longer than all of us when properly care for. There not many things manufactured today that the same is true. The prices of quality steam engines even 10 years ago seemed high then, but when you compare those prices to todays prices they are much less expensive. Inflation and the constantly increasing cost of living is to blame here.

I agree 100% with everything John said. He obviously has had a lot of experience with this topic.

When Cheddar Models was producing and selling high quality steam plants, a lot of people thought that their prices where high too. When you stop now and think about what you where getting from them for the price, it was really a deal. Now people hunt for these little gems and when they are found, they typically demand a higher price than they were 3-4 years ago.


Every manufacturers cost of doing business is going to be different from the next. The prices they charge for their products will be effected by this.

As I mentioned in my other posting, a smart manufacturer will offer the best quality at the best price to try to stimulate a volume of sales. We are lucky to have a number of manufacturers around the world to choose from even in this niche market. This plays another key roll in keeping the end consumer costs to a realistic level. But if we do not support these manufacturers we will have even less to choose from down the road. This I feel, will be more damaging to the hobby than anything else because only the well financed companies will out last the others and chances are that the well financed companies will have a higher operating cost which in the end will drive prices up even higher.

Best Regards,

Nick
 

[kno3]

I have discovered a 2-cylinder oscillator from PM Research and added it to the first post.

[Eddy Matthews]

I'm curious that everyone seems to be fixated on the price of an engine, when the major cost for most steam plants is the boiler.... Often 2-3 times the price of the engine!

Regards
Eddy

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's.......when offering an opinion or commenting on one or more products...it is always important to compare apples with apples ...otherwise your thoughts are not worth a cold cup of  ...so.........

1) the Monahan 'Cirrus' or 'Stratus' engine/boiler package = US$1000 = $1065 AUD

2) The Stuart 'Puffin' engine/boiler package = 720 UK pounds = $1494 AUD

I have limited my comments to these two manufacturers as they appear to have a very similar level of completeness in their respective  packages....with the exception  ...one manufacturer lists & offers a boiler test certificate and instructions as an option .... ...could suggest that this manufacturer has a   ACCOUNTANT as the CEO....need I say more?.....

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's.......and kor3 says

Derek, the problem is that many times you pay a lot and still get junk

 ...I am a little older than you kor3....so am a "little richer and poorer" at the same time 

If you purchase a component offered as quality....and you consider it as  junk....return it politely ...you will get your hard earned money  back ...no point in getting  with junk


.....you need all of those hard earned EUROS/US$/UK Pounds ... to purchase good quality model steam components ...as these are    for life.........Derek

[woody]

   Just a note on PM8 steam engine, I bought the kit and no problem putting it together
  it rums like a charm. The only problem is I need a larger boiler, I installed it in my Krick Victoria Steam Launch,it runs smooth and is very responsive.
                                                            Regards Woody

[GreeboTheCat]

I'd just like to add my 2 p'worth about the TVR1 and it's this: Nicely made, well documented and it does exactly what is says on the can. Having built one, installed and run it in my Krick Alexandra, I have nothing but praise for this little engine. I'm not knowledgeable enough about "inconsistencies" in building materials but I do know I got a lot of pleasure out of putting it all together and seeing it run a smooth as anything. OK so it might not last me a lifetime like some of the expensive items from France etc. but so what!