SCOTTISH PADDLE WARSHIP.

[Walter Snowdon]

In April 1916 the Admiralty took delivery of a new paddle minesweeper HMS Duchess of Buccleugh. She was a handsome large paddler with an unusual start to her life. At the start of world war1, NORTH BRITISH RAILWAYS had ordered two new paddlers fromA and J INGLIS, one for the Clyde and one for the Forth. While still on the slipway duchess of Buccleuch was bought by the admiralty and so never was fitted or carried passengers, going straight off to war.
does anyone know of any photos of her ? Or her service history?. She was 225 feet long with a tall single funnel. She survived the war and was laid up in Wales and was broken up in 1921. ONLY FIVE YEARS OLD- what was the reason?
There is a good profile (admiralty)drawing of her (2 page side view) in STEAMERS OF THE FORTH Vol. 2 by Ian Brodie published by Stenlake Publishing ISBN1 84033 308 1 but no pictures.
So come on out there- someone must know something about her- information please!
 Heres one for Allistar- What became of her (Clyde) sister- Was she built and what was her name?  Also, there are two books on Campbell steamers at War and a small booklet on WW2 Paddlers at war BUT NO DEFINITIVE BOOK ON SCOTTISH STEAMERS AT WAR (other than Talisman- the lone Crusader) - long overdue in my estimation. HINT HINT!!!.  regards to all (I love posting awkward questions) Walter.

[AlistairD]

The Clyde one was named FAIR MAID, and was taken  over by the admiralty on completion in December 1915. She was sunk by a mine on  6 November 1916. I have a photograph of her on trials, but can't lay my hands on  it at the moment.
 There is a plan of DUCHESS OF BUCCLEUCH in "Steamers of the  Forth: Volume 2: Firth Services and Excursions" by Ian Brodie, published by  Stenlake Publishing Ltd in 2004, http://www.stenlake.co.uk/books/cs.htm
 I don't think she was ever sold back to her original owners,  who by that time had ceased operating steamers, and was still owned by the  Admiralty when she was broken up
 Â 
 Alistair
 Â 
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    Walter Snowdon (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 10:48    AM
   Subject: SCOTTISH PADDLE WARSHIP.
   

   
In April 1916 the Admiralty took delivery of a new    paddle minesweeper HMS Duchess of Buccleugh. She was a handsome large paddler    with an unusual start to her life. At the start of world war1, NORTH BRITISH    RAILWAYS had ordered two new paddlers fromA and J INGLIS, one for the Clyde    and one for the Forth. While still on the slipway duchess of Buccleuch was    bought by the admiralty and so never was fitted or carried passengers, going    straight off to war.
does anyone know of any photos of her ? Or her service    history?. She was 225 feet long with a tall single funnel. She survived the    war and was laid up in Wales and was broken up in 1921. ONLY FIVE YEARS OLD-    what was the reason?
There is a good profile (admiralty)drawing of her (2    page side view) in STEAMERS OF THE FORTH Vol. 2 by Ian Brodie published by    Stenlake Publishing ISBN1 84033 308 1 but no pictures.
So come on out    there- someone must know something about her- information please!
Heres one    for Allistar- What became of her (Clyde) sister- Was she built and what was    her name? Also, there are two books on Campbell steamers at War and a small    booklet on WW2 Paddlers at war BUT NO DEFINITIVE BOOK ON SCOTTISH STEAMERS AT    WAR (other than Talisman- the lone Crusader) - long overdue in my estimation.    HINT HINT!!!. regards to all (I love posting awkward questions)    Walter.



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[Waverley]

Hi Walter and all

The photo of FAIR MAID on trials appears in Alan Brown's "Craigendoran Steamers".  She would have been an asset for the Clyde, I think - fast at 18 1/2 knots, almost as much as the classic 1899 WAVERLEY and far faster than any other paddler built for the Clyde that century.  She was to have indirectly replaced LUCY ASHTON, which eventually survived in service till 1949.

The question of DUCHESS OF BUCCLEUCH has been intriguing me. She was to have been slightly shorter than FAIR MAID (224 ft) and. in the absence of competition on the Forth may well have been considerably slower. She was built for the Galloway Steam Packet, a subsidiary of the North British Railway (NBR) and requisitioned on the stocks by the Admiralty. During the war Galloway's also managed to sell their remaining three paddlers to the Admiralty - who had offered a £10 / day charter fee for two of them - the NBR had decided to give up the Forth services and Galloway's went into liquidation.


So her original owners did not want her.

A second reason must have been the drastically changed economic conditions of post war Britain. The price of coal, and crew wages, rose dramatically and many marginal operations must have become unprofitable.   I can think of at least six companies which did not resume paddler services after the war while on the Clyde pooled services and a far greater degree of co-operation than ever before (leading up, of course to the railway amalgamation in 1923) meant that there was considerable spare tonnage.

Its hard to think of a potential UK buyer for her - not needed on the Clyde, too small for the Thames, probably too slow for Campbell's and unsuitable for Cosen's of Weymouth (who needed but never got a vessel with a cross channel certificate and speed to replace MAJESTIC)

[As a sideline, as far as I know, the ONLY paddler operator to build a vessel specifically to replace war losses (as opposed to the routine fleet replacement that started later) was Campbell's - they had lost 5 ships and had also acquired a new base at Swansea - they built a single replacement only - GLEN GOWER, although they also purchased two second hand vessels at the end of 1922 which allowed them to resume their services on the South Coast.]


I also wondered if the Admiralty just did not have the marketing skills to find a buyer for DUCHESS OF BUCCLEUCH, but they successfully sold MINERVA to Turkey and (the former Galloway) REDGAUNTLET to Algeria, so they must have had some skills.

It is far more likely that she was in such bad condition that refurbishment was not an economic proposition. After both wars, paddlers were returned to their owners in an unusable state and were only fit for scrap.  After WW1 these included MARCHIONESS OF LORNE on the Clyde  and Campbell's ALBION, WAVERLEY and GLEN ROSA (by an amazing coincidence three of their oldest vessels for which no doubt compensation was claimed).  

Bad condition seems to be at least part of the answer, especially as she was broken up as early after the war as 1921, whereas the Racecourse paddle minesweepers were retained for several years before being offered for sale.

Its a shame that neither of the got a chance to prove themselves doing the job for which they were built.

Regards

David

[AlistairD]

I also wondered if the Admiralty just did not have the  marketing skills to find a buyer for DUCHESS OF BUCCLEUCH, but they successfully  sold MINERVA to Turkey and (the former Galloway) REDGAUNTLET to Algeria, so they  must have had some skills.

Thanks very much for that posting,  David
 Â 
 In fact MINERVA's fate is one of the last unsolved  mysteries of Clyde steamers. Those who have researched Turkish steamers of that  era have never heard of her, and they can only surmise that she may have been  sold to owners at Smyrna (Izmir) during a Civil War in Turkey just after WWI,  following which the Greek population were removed from Smyrna
 I have never been able to come across the name of the  buyer from Admiralty records, and Lloyds Register recorded her as being under  Turkish ownership with no name and address of the owners
 Â 
 Â 
 Alistair
 Â 
 Â 

[Waverley]

Thanks Alistair

I wasn't aware of the MINERVA mystery - my info was from Roy Wilson's "Passenger Steamers of the Glasgow & South Western"  - Duckworth & Langmuir's "Clyde River and Other Steamers" state she was sold by the "British Government" which presumably means the same thing.

Duckworth & Langmuir in "Railway and Other Steamers" give a reported speed of 16 knots for DUCHESS OF BUCCLEUCH.

Regards

David

[AlistairD]

Over the years I have tried to trace the histories  of all British steamers sold abroad
 Â 
 Alistair
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    Waverley (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 3:58    PM
   Subject: RE: SCOTTISH PADDLE    WARSHIP.
   

   
Thanks Alistair

I wasn't aware of the MINERVA    mystery - my info was from Roy Wilson's "Passenger Steamers of the Glasgow    & South Western" - Duckworth & Langmuir's "Clyde River and Other    Steamers" state she was sold by the "British Government" which presumably    means the same thing.

Duckworth & Langmuir in "Railway and Other    Steamers" give a reported speed of 16 knots for DUCHESS OF    BUCCLEUCH.

Regards

David



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[PJ]

Alistair..after five years, I am still looking for  the disposition to Turkish owners of the Barclay Curle "Diana Vernon/Worthing  Belle/Touzla (Tuzla)".  We last had this topic in a "Research" thread back  in Jan 2005 and came to the conclusion there was virtually no record of her  in Turkish hands.  Both you and Tamer Ozkhan in Istanbul sent pictures  purported to be of her, but she looks the same as she did on the South  Coast, so there's no way of knowing if it really is of her in Turkish  guise.  In the photo the funnel markings aren't helpful and she  certainly did not show the split wheelhouses typical of Bosphorus  paddlers
 Â 
 Tom (Lee) says "In 1913 the competition  from the Campbell's fleet became too much and resulted in the sale of Worthing  Belle to Turkish owners who renamed her Touzla. She served as a gunboat in the  Great War (when she was reported sunk by Allied shipping) but resumed service as  a ferry until she was finally scrapped in 1926."
 Â 
 Your post on January 25 2005 was helpful  in which you said:
 Â 
 "I have just had  an email from a German friend who has researched Turkish steamers extensively It  appears that TUZLA was never a gunboat, hence her lack of mention in "The  Ottoman Steam navy".  On 30 August 1915 she was sunk by British battleships  (his word, he probably means warships) whilst lying empty at Akbas-liman. She  was only sold to Turkey in March 1914, so would have had only 4 months in  service before the war, hence the lack of  photographs"
 Â 
 There is a suggestion in other  UK sources she was raised after her sinking and then continued as a  Ferry. We have no record of this or of her being scrapped  either.   My quest is still to find a  photo of her under a Turkish flag and trace her history to see what became of  her. I'm curious to know if she ever had the same bridge mods made to many  Bosphorus paddlers. Seems strange a ship should simply disappear from  records!  I'm not sure where else to look, although I just realised I never properly checked Lloyds  yet. 
 Â 
 ----- Original Message -----
 

  From:    Alistair Deayton (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 11:10    AM
   Subject: Re: SCOTTISH PADDLE    WARSHIP.
   

   
Over the years I have tried to trace the histories of    all British steamers sold  abroad
 
Alistair

[AlistairD]

There is a new-ish book on Istanbul steamers, which  is very expensive, over 100 Euros from a German bookshop, and it may possibly  have photos
 Â 
 Alistair
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    Paul Jordan (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 2:11    AM
   Subject: Re: SCOTTISH PADDLE    WARSHIP.
   

   
Alistair..after five years, I am still looking for the    disposition to Turkish owners of the Barclay Curle "Diana Vernon/Worthing    Belle/Touzla (Tuzla)".  We last had this topic in a "Research" thread    back in Jan 2005 and came to the conclusion there was virtually no record    of her in Turkish hands.  Both you and Tamer Ozkhan in Istanbul sent    pictures purported to be of her, but she looks the same as she    did on the South Coast, so there's no way of knowing if it really is of    her in Turkish guise.  In the photo the funnel markings aren't    helpful and she certainly did not show the split wheelhouses typical of    Bosphorus paddlers
 
Tom (Lee) says "In 1913 the    competition from the Campbell's fleet became too much and resulted in the sale    of Worthing Belle to Turkish owners who renamed her Touzla. She served as a    gunboat in the Great War (when she was reported sunk by Allied shipping) but    resumed service as a ferry until she was finally scrapped in    1926."
 
Your post on January 25 2005 was    helpful in which you said:
 
"I have just had an email from a German friend who    has researched Turkish steamers extensively It appears that TUZLA was never a    gunboat, hence her lack of mention in "The Ottoman Steam navy".  On 30    August 1915 she was sunk by British battleships (his word, he probably means    warships) whilst lying empty at Akbas-liman. She was only sold to Turkey in    March 1914, so would have had only 4 months in service before the war, hence    the lack of photographs"
 
There is a suggestion in    other UK sources she was raised after her sinking and then continued as a    Ferry. We have no record of this or of her being scrapped    either.   My quest is still to find a photo of her under a    Turkish flag and trace her history to see what became of her. I'm curious to    know if she ever had the same bridge mods made to many Bosphorus    paddlers. Seems strange a ship should simply disappear from    records!  I'm not sure where else to look, although I just realised    I never properly checked Lloyds yet. 
 
----- Original    Message -----

   
         
       :

     
       From: Alistair          Deayton (research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk))          
To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)          (research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk))          
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007          11:10 AM
Subject: Re: SCOTTISH          PADDLE WARSHIP.



Over the years I have tried to trace the          histories of all British steamers sold        abroad
 
Alistair






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