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Author Topic: Engines  (Read 17552 times)

paddlesteamerman1

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Engines
« on: November 20, 2006, 07:48:31 AM »
Hello All,
Now that I know the SJ cant be steam just at this minute, I need another power option (other than pedal!!)
Dad said that marine diesels are to heavy, and I wouldnt be able to find one small enough, is that true?
And I was thinking of the old green petrol engines, the ones that go bang every now and again!! Would they be suitable, given that the weight is ok?
Thanks
:beer

Offline anth

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Engines
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2006, 09:47:59 PM »
there to heavy old and expensive james you should aim for a little air cooled 4 stroke.

paddlesteamerman1

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Engines
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2006, 10:06:01 PM »
So just a small air cooled 4 stroke petrol motor should do the job then.. Until I can get my hands on a small steam engine, hopefully it wont through out the whole weight distribution and stability thing we have been discussing..
I will start browsing, but no buying just yet.. not for a while..

:beer

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Engines
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2006, 10:38:44 PM »
Hi PD's & as James says

"I will start browsing, but no buying just yet"

This is a good idea to think about the engine first [or should we say the variations on your considered engines].... a small current vintage air cooled four stroke engine will develop optimum power at say 4000 to 6000 RPM

Just wondering what type/size speed reducer you were now considering to bring your paddle axis revolutions to say 150 RPM :?: - Derek
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

paddlesteamerman1

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Engines
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2006, 08:51:22 AM »
PD's and Derek - I was thinking (as a few have suggested) to have the engine running at bilge level and connect to the drive shaft via a chain.. If that was the case I could lower the RPM from the engine output to the paddles input by making the circumference of the chain circle a lot smaller than the circumference of the drive shafts chain circle.. Kind of like bike gears (but not with multiple gears).. eg.. on the PS Pevensey the engine directly drives a smaller cog which then in turn drives a larger cog and in effect making the paddles RPM a lot smaller/slower than the engines RPM..
Hope that makes sense!!
Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!!
:beer

Online Eddy Matthews

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Engines
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2006, 09:03:31 AM »
Assuming Derek is correct with a 6000 RPM engine speed (and I have no reason to doubt his figures!), to get the 150 RPM your going to need for the paddlwheels will mean a reduction of 40:1

Using a simple chain drive straight from the motor output shaft to the paddleshaft is never going to be practical - for two reasons....

#1. If you had a motor sprocket with only ten teeth, you would need a paddleshaft sprocket with 400 teeth - Which lets face it isn't realistic..

#2. You have to consider the speed the chain is being driven at as centrifugal forces will play a large part with such high RPM, and the chain will simply jump off the sprockets. Chains are a very efficient method of driving something, but they can only be used at relatively low speeds.

Your going to need some sort of gearbox to reduce the motor speed to an acceptable level, and then use a chain/sprockets for final tuning of the paddle speed.

Sorry to be negative again, but the laws of physics come into these things as well...
~ Never, ever, argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience ~

paddlesteamerman1

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Engines
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2006, 09:41:54 AM »
Eddy, that is not negative.. It is very bloody helpful.. Imagine where I would be without the constructive comments from PD's :)
A gearbox?? I know what they are but I have never fully understood the marine engine geary thing??  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops: I dont really know a lot about engines..

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Engines
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2006, 12:36:44 PM »
Hi PD's.... James GOOGLE the "RENOLD Chain" site... you will find simple chain calculations & limitations of chain speed... [it is the linear speed of the chain {surface distance per unit of time travelled} & change of direction on the pinions that determines the limitation]

So you have the initial speed limitation :hammer  & hence multiple chain reductions of 1001043 which is the original bicycle chain developed by Monsiour RENOLD in FROG land all those years ago will not help

From memory even a .025" pitch BS or ASA chain would catastrophically explode  :boom at speeds well below those you are contemplating with a small engine as previously noted

Many, many years ago... on completion of my engineering studies I was employed by an Australian company from Wellington Road Mulgrave Victoria.... just around the corner from you...... yes the same Renold Australia.... Derek
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline mjt60a

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Engines
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2006, 12:47:15 PM »
Just a 'shot-in-the-dark' here, I haven't really figured this out at all but how about if you could get an engine and gearbox from one of these - http://cgi.ebay.ca/Piaggio-Ape-50-3-Wheel-Utility-Scooter-Truck_W0QQitemZ190052301068QQihZ009QQcategoryZ6721QQcmdZViewItem - I don't know if they ever show up in junkyards but if you could find one it might work, it's only 50cc so should be small enough when stripped of all the 'road use' components, you'd probably only need to use first and reverse gear...........
Posted by Mick.
(.....gonna need a bigger boat.....)

paddlesteamerman1

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Engines
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2006, 01:15:55 PM »
ePM PH
 
Helical wormgear unit available in six unit sizes up to 45kW capacity.  Gear unit ratio range up to 300:1 and up to 22000:1 if combined with other Renold helical gear products.

Variable mounting - design flexibility
High torque unit - compact design
Robust construction - suitable for heavy duty applications
Adaptability - ideal for hostile environments
Innovative design - allows modular extension of power ratio range
Motorised and speed reducer versions
Long life synthetic lubrication
Hollow output shaft design for direct shaft mounting
Single and double extension plug-in output shaft for many design options
Speed reducer version available for drives requiring free standing gear unit only
Modular design to allow flange mounting of other Renold gear units increasing ratio and torque capacity range
e.PM series - PH type - Product Features

Unique Holroyd tooth form for maximum torque capacity and optimum efficiency.
Sprag clutch backstop option to prevent drive reversal.
Heavy duty taper roller bearings fitted for maximum load capacity and long life.
One piece close grained cast iron gear case for strength and absorption of vibration for quiet running.
Accepts standard IEC and NEMA motors, B5 and B14 flanges.
Hardened and profile ground helical gears for quiet running and high efficiency.
Hollow output sleeve with electron beam welded bronze wormwheel rim for high security under shock load conditions.
The e.PM series, PH type unit has been designed and built to a modular form to allow the combination of other Renold products to extend the torque, ratio and speed range.

e.PM series - PH type - Product Features

Crane Drives  
Conveyors  
Food Process Machinery
Mining Mixer Drives  
Timber Machinery
Water Treatment  
General Industrial Applications


This is a sample I took from the site that Derek mentioned, is this the kind of gears I would be looking at.. and I cant find anything about chain limitations yet, but this is the most simple looking chain I could find.. Thanks Derek and Mick for the help..

Leaf Chain
 
Our range of leaf chain for materials handling applications is used worldwide for straddle carriers, forklift trucks and on major civil engineering works such as flood defence barriers.

 

We are behind some of the biggest names in the industry thanks to the quality of our products.

 

Special design features

 

High Fatigue Strength
Long Service Life
Maximum Resistance to wear
Compact Design


 

Link Plates

Plates are made from a special steel which can withstand sudden loads and provides maximum resistance to breakage

 

Bearing Pins

Pins are manufactured from a special steel which has excellent resistance to bending. This increases the wear life of the chain.

 

Inner Link Plates

Movement of the inner plates is improved by close control of the pin and plate hole dimensions. This reduces rubbing (friction) to a minimum so the chain operates more economically and efficiently.

 

Chain pitch

Pitch (distance between each pin or plate hole) accuracy and pin hole diameters (holes in link plates) are maintained on every component during manufacture. This ensures consistent precision performance and good movement of the leaf chain joints.

 

 


I had a look at the Vespa, it looks fun actually.. but to expensive.. I will keep an eye open for them around Mick!!
:beer

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Engines
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2006, 02:20:33 PM »
Hi PD.... but James ... yes these are from the Renold site I mentioned

Helical wormgear unit available in six unit sizes up to 45kW capacity. Gear unit ratio range up to 300:1 and up to 22000:1 if combined with other Renold helical gear products.

however even in the smallest size .75Kw [input power] would cost say $2500.00 AUD

Please back read the postings as I was not suggesting any such costly direction... just the limitations of of chain speed

The colour & content  :rant of your last posting suggests frustration - could I suggest most if not all PD's have felt or wandered down that creek or road or sea :oops: many times... so you are certainly not JC on the X [with no disrespect to the latter]

Just take your time James with PS Sarah.... regards Derek
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

paddlesteamerman1

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Engines
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2006, 02:57:01 PM »
No, I am not frustrated Derek :D
Not yet anyway (the paint stripping could change that one!!)
I had a feeling that they could be quite expensive however I am keeping all options open at the minute, considering I need to consider everything..
Ta
:beer

Offline Roderick Smith

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motorcycle engine & gear train?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2006, 04:20:52 PM »
James,
I have no experience here.  However, clearly all motorcycles (with inbuilt gearboxes) are set up for chain drive, and the chain does not disintegrate through overspeeding.  Furthermore, the chain is of a size which should handle the power which you need on a boat of this size.
So: buy a second-hand motorcycle; use the engine and gearbox and output cog.
Chain on the right level of reduction gearing.
And: recyle the two wheels as the cores of your paddles, with floats welded onto the rim.

All you need now is a main shaft, two stub shafts and some suitable cogs, also a dog clutch so that you can engage reverse.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

paddlesteamerman1

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Engines
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2006, 04:27:45 PM »
That sounds perfect you know... I didn't even think of a motorcycle.. But it sounds practical, and therefore good!!
Wouldnt a motorcycle engine be quite noisy, just thinking of the motorcycles at home??
A dog clutch?!? Couldnt I just use the clutch from the motorcycle I would be using?
Thanks
:beer

Offline anth

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Engines
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2006, 07:57:27 PM »
just a point who say's you have to use the full rpm range of the motor!
4000_6000
what engine ?
what hp...?
A larger 4 stroke may produce 14 hp but i very much doubt 14hp will be needed just an example.
You could have the engine governed producing less hp at lower rpm.
This will be more practical than using a smaller engine and making it rev  to produce the same power.eg 4000_6000.as what a larger engine would make at a lower rpm range.

Just a thought :D

 

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