APAM- The Directors Cut!

[PJ]

Yes..that's helpful Derek.  Thank  you.
 Â 
 I have Tom Mead's book and it's a shame he devotes only a  brief part to the early Manly paddlers.  I really would like to see  more pictures of the ships you've listed and also the Port Philip paddlers  which Roderick listed.  Has anybody got any ideas where  models/plans/drawings of these ships might be found?  I'm currently  scouring the Australian Maritime Museum Websites to see if any exist but so far  no luck.
 Â 
 Also (and I asked this question before) does anybody live  close to the Australian National Maritime Museum in Sydney and can give us a  heads up of what paddler related matter they have?
 Â 
 Â 
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    Derek L Warner Pty Ltd (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:19    AM
   Subject: RE: APAM- The Directors    Cut!
   

   
Hi PD’s & hullo PJ…….here is a listing of the    paddle vessels that plied from waters of Sydney harbour in Australia &    were termed as the Manly ferries or combined with duties of ferries/tugs    
 
The Brothers 1847>1886
Warlingtin 1851>?
Herald    1854>1884
Nora Creiner 1854>?
The Huntress 1854>1857    
Planet 1855>?
Black Swan 1854>?
Phantom 1858>1878    
Clommel 1859>1878
Culloden 1867>?
Breadalbane 1853>1884    
Goolwa 1864>1919
Cobra 1871>1873
Commodore 1878>1898    
Fairlight 1878>1912
Brighton 1883>1916  

[Roderick Smith]

You really have to buy the books.
The images are copywritten, and can't be reproduced here.
One good site for the Sydney ones is
http://landover.no-ip.com/ferries/index.html
It lists 32 paddlesteamers, with images of about 12 (45 images, as some have multiple).

I have visited ANMM twice.  Despite its pretentious name, Australian National Maritime Museum is not very national.  Its themes are good, but hardly all-embracing.  IIRC, it doesn't even cover the Murray or Darling, and they flowed through NSW (NSW still lives with a Premier State mentality).
I don't recall much on Sydney Harbour ferries either.
The displays which stick in my mind:
* Early migration by sailing ship. with interpretive material and sample interiors.
* Links with USA (a display funded by the USA government).
* History of Halvorsen.
* Recreation and beach picnics (including yachting, surfing, and a Kontiki-style boat made from empty beer cans).
* A sectioned marine engine (double or triple expansion?).
The bookshop is good, and most marine books (eg the Plowman series) are available there.
Some of the important boats moored alongside require a supplementary fee (or perhaps that was because my more recent visit was when entry to the main display was free, under a sponsorship deal).

Overall, I thought that NZ's national maritime museum (Auckland, in a similar setting on a touristfied former working harbour) did a better job of covering the important aspects of national maritime history.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's.....& PJ asks...........

 does anybody live close to the Australian National Maritime Museum in Sydney and can give us a heads up of what paddler related matter they have?

PJ.. I am 80 Km from Sydney, but as previously posted, the ANMM has zero on our Australian paddler history   :rant - the Museum is in a truly  beautiful water location @ Darling harbour with the backdrop of the Sydney harbour  bridge & the external exhibits [James Craig, HMAS  :boom Vampire, a Russian :ohno  submarine etc are a great way to spend a day...just a pity about the lack of PD history - Derek

Oh BTW... I also think the South Australian Maritime Muesum in Port Adelaide is of greater historical interest than that offered by Sydney

[PJ]

Hello Roderick.
 Â 
 You raise an interesting and frequently  debated point regarding copyright material and one which, as an editor, I  recognize concerns you greatly.  I'm sure if this  is off topic it can be moved to an appropriate spot.
 Â 
 You said in your post:
 Â "You really have to buy the  books.
The images are copywritten, and can't be reproduced  here."
 Â 
 I appreciate what you say and most certainly do buy the  books.  I have a huge paddler library.
 Â 
 Since I'm no longer a moderator on this forum, I can't speak  on policy, but I'm sure the moderators will correct me if I'm wrong in the  context of this forum. 
 Â 
 The policy I maintained in the old Paddleducks Yahoo Forum was  that it was OK to reproduce copyright images on the forum so long  as:
 Â 
 a) The dimensions of the material are  reduced/altered/watermarked so as not to confuse, or in any way allow  reproduction as an original.
 b) Full text credit is given to the copyright holder and/or  the source of the material in the absence of formal permission.
 c) The material is immediately removed if it offends a  copyright holder and upon which an apology should be given.
 d) There is no attempt to gain financially from reproducing  the material.
 Â 
 Since Paddleducks is a not-for-profit forum and  originally formed for the benefit of researchers, modelmakers and  enthusiasts, there is little danger of being sued by a copyright holder so long  as the above conditions are met. Having obtained a legal  opinion on this very issue when I started the original Paddleducks  forum, the consensus was that, so long as the material was published  responsibly and within the above guidelines, there was little chance of being  sued for copyright infringement.  It would be extremely difficult to  prove damages and would be unproductive and expensive for a copyright  holder to pursue legal action, especially in a foreign jurisdiction.  This  is not to be confused with Trade Mark or Patent infringements which have  their own regulatory bodies and subject to far more stringent recourse.   
 Â 
 I think you'd agree that in many cases, reproducing  photos or text in a responsible manner and making sure appropriate  credit is given to the copyright holder/source can even be helpful  to authors in bringing attention to their original work. It has  even been put forward that once material is published on the net it  becomes public domain. I tend to disagree with this and believe it's a  dangerous assumption.  There are rules for public domain, although I  have never been able to find a satisfactory or legally  binding definition. 
 Â 
 To illustrate my point, you provided a link to a website  called Landover's Sydney  Ferries Gallery.  I have no idea who "Landover" is or who puts out this  website but I did notice they have published a large number of photographs  without one single copyright credit! In fact I don't know if you noticed the  second image of "The Brothers" (a ship that particularly interests me) at  URL:
 http://landover.no-ip.com/ferries/images/ferries/manly/paddle/brothers/index.php?start=2
 You'll no doubt have recognized this as John Allcot's original work which  became the back cover for Tom Mead's well known book on the subject.   Although there's a good description of the ship, there's no mention of nor any  credit given to Mr. Allcot and not even any indication the artist has given  permission to reproduce the image on the website. Correct me if I'm  wrong, but I'd expect this to be a copy of an original work and likely  copyrighted.  If this is so then I think you'd agree this is a clear  example of irresponsible image publishing.  However, I'd be surprised  if there has ever been any legal action taken over this or most of the other  unaccredited material on this website as nobody is likely to be financially  damaged by it and there is certainly no intention to defraud the copyright  holders.
 Â 
 I hope you won't take offence at my comments which are  purely to make sure forum subscribers are not discouraged from posting  images and that everyone here continues to have access to resources  and information when it is posted responsibly as it most certainly is  in this forum. 
 Â 
 I, for one, would still like to see images of those  beautiful old Australian paddle Ferries which, from a historic  perspective, deserve every bit as much recognition and discussion  as their Murray river  counterparts.  
 
 Â 
 Regards.
 Â 
 Â 
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    Roderick Smith (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:52    PM
   Subject: RE: APAM- The Directors    Cut!sued
   

   
You really have to buy the books.
The images are    copywritten, and can't be reproduced here.
One good site for the Sydney    ones is
http://landover.no-ip.com/ferries/index.html
It lists 32    paddlesteamers, with images of about 12 (45 images, as some have    multiple).  
SNIP

[mjt60a]

The third large paddle steamer was WEEROONA. These  were like large Clyde steamers in design....

The book 'Paddlesteamers' by Bernard Cox has a photo of weeroona (in the chapter with other aussie boats), it does indeed look like a clyde steamer!

[Eddy Matthews]

I have to agree with Paul, the odd photograph is not going to cause any problem as long as due credit is given to the copyright holder or the source of the original. It's only common decency after all!

It's a different ballgame if we're talking about publishing a full article or book etc on the forum - Then we would always try to obtain the copyright holders permission, unless it's out of copyright of course...

[Roderick Smith]

All literature states that the popular Port Phillip Bay excursion steamers were based on Clyde practice.
I haven't the time to do a more-detailed article today.
The best known were:
* Ozone: Built 1886 by Napier, Shanks & Bell (Glasgow, Scotland).
* Hygeia: Built 1890 by Napier, Shanks & Bell (Glasgow, Scotland).
* Weeroona: Built 1910 by A S Inglis (Glasgow, Scotland).

The definitive work is T K Fitchett 'Down the bay; the story of the excursion boats of Port Phillip', Rigby, 1973; Isbn 0 85179 632 X.

It was illustrated exclusively with watercolour paintings made by the author, who was born in 1896.  Probably he is dead today, but not for 50 years.  If I can't find suitable photos to post one of each, I will scan the relevant ones in b&w.  I have also restored the photo of PV Gypsy Ellen which I removed after a comment from Sean; it is in the APAM list of modern & restored thread, ~p4.

I wrote an article 'Down the bay' as a set of notes for a railway-enthusiast group chartering MV Little Gem from Williamstown to Mornington, then published the article in RNV.  I was approached by Australian Ferry Society to republish the article in AFS Newsletter (now titled 'Ferries Australia'), and have become both a member and regular author.  In an age before motor cars and nightclubs, they were very popular for public recreation and for a young man to hunt for a young lady.  There is a wealth of folklore and a great deal of public affection for them.  As I mentioned in my introduction post, the ashes of my great uncle were thrown into the bay from one.  'Down the bay' was a very Melbourne phrase for close to 100 years.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[AlistairD]

I take it you guys have the book "The wheels still  turn" by Peter Plowman which is an overview of all Australian  paddlers
 Â 
 Alistair
 

  ----- Original Message -----
   From:    Roderick Smith (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
   Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:52    AM
   Subject: RE: APAM- The Directors    Cut!
   

   
You really have to buy the books.
The images are    copywritten, and can't be reproduced here.
One good site for the Sydney    ones is
http://landover.no-ip.com/ferries/index.html
It lists 32    paddlesteamers, with images of about 12 (45 images, as some have    multiple).

I have visited NMM twice. Despite its pretentious name,    National Maritime Museum is not very national. Its themes are good, but hardly    all-embracing. IIRC, it doesn't even cover the Murray or Darling, and they    flowed through NSW (NSW still lives with a Premier State mentality).
I    don't recall much on Sydney Harbour ferries either.
The displays which    stick in my mind:
* Early migration by sailing ship. with interpretive    material and sample interiors.
* Links with USA (a display funded by the    USA government).
* History of Halvorsen.
* Recreation and beach picnics    (including yachting, surfing, and a Kontiki-style boat made from empty beer    cans).
* A sectioned marine engine (double or triple expansion?).
The    bookshop is good, and most marine books (eg the Plowman series) are available    there.
Some of the important boats moored alongside require a supplementary    fee (or perhaps that was because my more recent visit was when entry to the    main display was free, under a sponsorship deal).

Overall, I thought    that NZ's national maritime museum (Auckland, in a similar setting on a    touristfied former working harbour) did a better job of covering the important    aspects of national maritime history.

Regards,
Roderick B    Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor



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[paddlesteamerman1]

On regards to the National Maritime Museum in Sydney, I have attended once or twice and can not remember a great deal of paddler related material. But the one is South Australia, if I recall correctly, is a lot more Murray River related. I remember enjoying it much more than the Sydney one (and that could only be because of the paddler content (as I also have a large interest in maritime history and own various books from the vikings to the super liners of today).

[Roderick Smith]

Most have a web presence, try Googling.

QUEENSLAND
Townsville: on Ross River, close to the city centre, in historic and purpose-built buildings.  General marine stuff, with a focus on the mysterious loss of the coastal ship Yongala nearby, and Townsville's role as a military city in WWII (when there was a strong fear that north Queensland would be invaded by Japan).  Surprisingly, there is little coverage of the Hayles ferry to Magnetic Island: Hayles grew to be a major force in coastal tourism, before the empire was fragmented into multiple different private operations.
www.townsvillemaritimemuseum.org.au.

Brisbane: Queensland Maritime Museum, at a dry dock on Brisbane River, south bank, inner city.  The floating display includes operating steam tug Forceful and RAN Diamantina (built in Queensland) and a lightship Carpentaria.  I can't remember much about the interior display.
www.maritimemuseum.com.au.

NEW SOUTH WALES
Sydney: ANMM, discussed further up, www.anmm.gov.au.
There are two historic fleets at Darling harbour: ANMM's static one, and Sydney Heritage Fleet's operating ones (including the elegant Edwardian steam launch Lady Hopetoun).  In a fit of honesty, the former Australian Heritage Fleet renamed itself to the more accurate SHF.  It has several beautiful vessels in working order (but no paddle ones).  www.australianheritagefleet.com.au.

VICTORIA
Melbourne: based on restored barque Polly Woodside, and the former Duke & Orr dry dock.  I can't recall much of an interior display, just the two major pieces of engineering.  The museum is closed from mid 2006 to the end of 2008 while the waterfront is redeveloped as a commercial and tourist precinct.
www.nattrust.com.au/trust_properties/melbourne_and_surrounds/melbourne_maritime_museum_home_of_polly_woodside

There is also marine material at the immigration museum (former customs house), Scienceworks (Spotswood, a former sewage-pumping station) and on the floating HMAS Castlemaine at Williamstown.

Lakes Entrance: A good display of lakes shipping, including some photos of paddle vessels in the visitor centre at the Princes Hwy entry to the town.

Echuca: Apart from the preserved operation paddlesteamers, there is a display at the historic wharf.  Many nearby buildings are preserved in their 1860s condition.  A former brothel is about to become an upmarket b&b [again!].

Ballarat: There is a small museum in a historic boatshed on Lake Wendouree.  The lake had several small paddle vessels to take workers from the east end to the gardens at the west end for weekend recreation.  An original boat was destroyed by arson in 2006 at its offsite restoration shed.  In 2007, the lake is dry.

TASMANIA
* Devonport Maritime Museum & Historical Society: Gloucester Ave; Box 658 Devonport Tas. 7310; 03 6424 7100.  The collection is housed in the former harbourmaster's house, plus extensions.  It is open 10.00-16.00 (16.30 Oct.-Mar).  There is an extensive coverage of Bass Strait ferries.
* Launceston Maritime Museum: Wellington St, Launceston Tas. 7250.
* Maritime Museum of Tasmania: 16 Argyle St; Box 1118L Hobart Tas. 7001; 03 6234 1427; www.maritimetas.org.  It is open 10.00-17.00 daily (except Good Friday & Christmas Day).  During 2000-01, ANMM helped this museum develop a new exhibition, reinterpreting the extensive collection.  Themes include crossing Derwent River, Port of Hobart and the sea roads of south-eastern Tasmanian coastal communities.
* Pilot Station Maritime Museum: 399 Low Head Rd, Low Head Tas. 7253; 03 6382 1143.  It is open 8.00 until late, daily.
* Many other museums have significant maritime items.
* Lady Nelson was the first boat to enter Port Phillip heads.  A 16.7 m replica was built in 1988, and is operated in Tasmania for youth sail training.  On Thurs.14.2.02, the replica marked the 200th anniversary of the original journey by repeating it, watched by hundreds of people from the shore.  It would remain in the area for 3 weeks for commemorative celebrations.
* Australia's oldest registered ship, the trading ketch May Queen, returned to the water in Hobart on Sat.3.8.02 after 2 years in dry dock.  May Queen is 20.1 m long, and was built in 1867 at Franklin, on Huon River.  It continued in commercial service until 1973, carrying sawn timber and railway sleepers to Hobart.  It was then gifted to the Tasmanian government, and is now in the care of a not-for-profit trust.  During restoration, the blue gum hull (which retains most of the original timbers) was recaulked; some rotting deck timbers (celery top pine) were replaced.  The masts would be refitted in the coming months; restoration would be complete in early 2003.  In Aug.03,  May Queen was posed next to Spirit of Tasmania II, as the oldest surviving and newest ships in Tasmania's maritime history.  [since I wrote this as part of an AFSN article, May Queen has been commissioned fully, at the historic docks in the heart of Hobart].  www.svmayqueen.org.

SOUTH AUSTRALIA
Adelaide: The museum is at Port Adelaide in a historic precinct which is being transformed for tourism, and includes the former Port Dock Station Railway Museum (now pretentiously renamed National Railway Museum, but without a national collection), historic hotels, warehouses as art galleries.  The maritime museum has several vessels, including operating steam tug Yelta, and is the base for the SA sail-training vessel One and All (which was being built when I visited the museum in the 1980s).  I can't recall much of the interior display (in a former warehouse).  Possibly the paddlesteamer display hadn't been assembled at that time.
www.history.sa.gov.au/maritime/maritime.htm.
Mannum:
* The visitor centre is based around Randell's dry dock, and is the base for PS Marion when not cruising.  It has a display of memorabilia.
* Opposite was a private museum, with a large display of historic paddlesteamer photos.  This was Mannum Heritage Centre, owned and operated by Rod Williams and his wife. Paddleducker James was corresponding with Rod, and owns many of his books. Rod died of heart attack in 2006, and his wife didn't keep the museum.

Renmark: Has PS Industry on display; I am not sure how large the static display is.

WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Perth: The WA maritime museum is at Fremantle, in one or two large cargo sheds.  The static display covers mainly local items, including a preserved lifeboat (IIRC), and a preserved competition yacht.
www.museum.wa.gov.au/maritime

NORTHERN TERRITORY
Nothing?

Around the nation, there are lots of small local museums.  Those in marine areas will have some photos and memorabilia as part of a general collection.

Overall: For paddleboats, it seems that Mannum and Port Adelaide are the winners.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[thewharfonline]

The Wentworth museum has a lot of paddler photos- a lot of the Parson's collection featuring a lot of the boats.

Renmark's static display includes a model of industry- with a gold coin donation the wheels come to life with some lighting and I think it speaks. There are another few models including the argo barge.

It's more of a tourist centre though...with the drawcard of the Industry "Out the back mate"

[paddlesteamerman1]

Roderick,
Is the museum your talking about the Mannum Heritage Centre??
Last time I was in Mannum - the Heritage Centre was shut and for sale. I used to by historic photos from there all the time, and was sadly dissapointed when it was shut, and I also knew the owners of the Heritage Centre.
I am not sure if someone else has bought it and started it up again...

[Roderick Smith]

I found another useful book to help prepare a response for Eddy's request:

A E Woodley 'Western Port ferries; past and present', Hill of Content, 1973; Isbn 85572 052 2.

Western Port is the second of the two bays which established the site of Melbourne.  Mornington Peninsula separates Port Phillip Bay from Western Port, and became a popular holiday region (hence bay excursion steamers to Sorrento).  Now urban expansion is spreading down the peninsula.  In Western Port there are two islands: up the bay is French Island, still rural.  At the mouth is Phillip Island.  This was developed for tourism as Victoria's Isle of Wight.  The towns are Cowes, Rhyll, Newhaven & Ventnor; the main hotel is Isle of Wight Hotel.  The island has the famous penguin colony, also mutton birds, and seals on offshore rocks.  It also had a motor-racing circuit from the 1920s or 30s.  Both islands were (and are) served by ferries, but the book reveals that none were paddle vessels.  Roro car transport was provided from 1933 on the Stony Point - Cowes route (the most direct route from Melbourne), using SS Killara.  This was cascaded from Sydney after the opening of Sydney Harbour Bridge had made it redundant.  Loading ramps were also transferred from Sydney.  At the eastern end of the island, the short crossing from Newhaven to San Remo had an unpowered vehicular barge, towed by a small launch.  A suspension bridge was opened over this channel c1937, but Killara continued in service until at least 1941.  The narrow bridge was replaced with a wider one c1970.

I have no references for Swan River paddleboats (and Rottnest Island?).  Somebody else mentioned these, and may be able to undertake the research.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor


...I haven't seen anything in the Aussie threads about passenger carrying paddlers, or paddle ferries for cars/trains or whatever... Did such things exist? Surely they must have? ...Eddy

[Eddy Matthews]

Thanks Roderick (and others). I may not be saying much, but I'm watching the developing thread on ferries/passenger paddlers with great interest.

I find it fascinating to hear of vessels that aren't the normal "murray/darling" boats, although no disrespect is meant by that comment, so please don't take it the wrong way! I realise they were (and are!) a great part of Aussie maritime history.

[Roderick Smith]

I haven't found Yarra River or Lake Wendouree yet.
In googling for Rottnest Island paddlesteamers (none found), I came across the Australian shipwrecks website. In particular: http://oceans1.customer.netspace.net.au/murray-main.html
lists some of the Murray River wrecks.
The compiler noted that most of these were incidental references in the sources, which were concentrating on sea wrecks.

I have about 20 photos of Port Phillip Bay paddlesteamers to scan from the Loney book.  I will finish my current Murray River series before starting this.

Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor