Burner Requirements in Australia ???????????????????????????

[derekwarner_decoy]

:?: - Hi PD's - with the planned arrival of my gas powered boiler I thought it best to check with the authorities here re any regulations I may have to adhere to

First call was to AGL, being Australian Gas Light & a very pleasant call center lady [please note this was a call center lady & not a call girl at some center] who advised that I should really be contacting the OoGS [Office of Gas Safety] - the attendents name here was Kelvin [clearly not a call girl] as he said no, no, no, no, no - but, you really need to discuss this issue with the AGA [Australian Gas Association]

When I got through the 23 telephone button press options I finally spoke with another call center Lady & was referred on to a Technical person with an accent or/and name that I could not repeat

Long & the short of it is Sandy - appears if I want to light my ACS boiler in or on any shore or terrority of Australia, I must submit an application form for approval to the AGA for what is believed to be a TYPE B gas appliance which is covered by the Australian Standard AS3814

This technical person also notes that an AUD$25,000.00 fee is required for the processing of any application to use a gas heating appliance of 20000.00 Megajoule per hour or over

[With this I sence this technical person is awaiting his CURRY sandwiches to heat up in the MICROWAVE as I heard a distinct wirring noise in the background]

So just at the microwave three bells bit I suggest that my Scottish bolier burner may consume 0.00000003 Mj per hour & with this the technical person says - as long as you have a boiler ER number & certificate just check with your local marine model club as you will have no problems

So I thank the technical person for his both technical and commerial advice & tell him that I hope he enjoys his lunch

Believe it or not the above is a pretty straight version of events trying to get a simple answer to a simple question within a series of beaurocratic systems - mosty important thing is I came out  smiling after 45 minutes - Derek

[sandy_ACS]

     

Hi PD's

Don't' you just love it when these OZZIES start to get all tetchnikal....

So just at the microwave three bells bit I suggest that my Scottish bolier burner may consume 0.00000003 Mj per hour & with this the technical person says - as long as you have a boiler ER number & certificate just check with your local marine model club as you will have no problems

I was going to reply directly to you Derek, however, I thought that some of the other PD's might like to have some facts on boilers, burners and efficiency issues...so here goes: -

Let us take Dereks boiler as a typical example of a model boiler....This has a total water capacity of 600 mils or 32.614 cu ins. which weighs in at approx 1 .198 lb.
For simplicity, since you cannot use all the available volume, or indeed turn all that which can be used to steam, let us assume that we can use only 1 lb of water = 27.2 cu ins. = 445.7 mils.

If we start with 1 lb water at an ambient temperature of 62 deg F and wish to turn this to steam at 45 psig (gauge reading above atmospheric) will require the following amount of heat in B.Th.U.
(1 B.Th.U is required to raise the temperature of 1 lb water by 1 degree F)

To raise the water to 212 deg.F will require 150 B.Th.U.
Note....We have not yet produced any steam.
To turn it all to steam at ATMOSPHERIC pressure will require a further 967 B.Th.U.  This being the Latent Heat of Evaporation.

To raise the steam pressure to 45 psig which has a temperature of 292 deg.F will require a further input of 80 B.Th.U.

So our total heat input becomes: -

150 + 926 + 80 = 1156 B.Th.U.

???What's this....926....I thought you said 967 above?....Quite correct...the figure actually used is derived from the fact that as pressure increases then the Latent Heat of Evaporation reduces and at 45 psi the figure is approx. =926.

Clear as the Murray River so far...!!! :?:  :?:

The Propane 30% / Butane 70% mixed gasses commonly used for model purposes has a calorific Value of approx. 21,408 B.Th.U per lb. or 1338 B.Th.U per oz.

This means that we will require to burn some 0.864 oz gas to achieve the steam conversion as above.

NOTE WELL.. this figure assumes that all the available heat can be transferred to the water.

In Practice this is not possible and even a very high efficiency multi tube boiler (full size) would only manage around 80%.
Unfortunately the small model boilers as used for our model ships are probably closer to 50 - 60%.

Your boiler Derek (properly adjusted) will typically use around 1 1/4 oz gas per filling of water
(1 lb)which will run for approx 30 mins. (typical figure; which will depend upon wind, tide, model type, speed, etc etc) and will consume approx 1 1/4oz gas. = 1672.5 B.Th.U.

Which gives an efficiency rate of approx 55% or 0.55  :clap2

This equates to 2.5oz gas per hour...or 3345 B.Th.U.

Which in terms of MEGAJOULES/HR = 3.529 Megajoules/hr.
(1 B.Th.U = 0.00106 Megajoules.)

 :roll:  :roll:  :wink:

Maybe you had better get back on to the CURRY MASTER, grovel a bit... no a lot.... and tell him you have made a large mistake....and pay him his 25,000AUD......    

On a more serious note though PD's It was very good of Derek to go to the trouble of checking things out with his authorities and to report his findings to us all. So far, I have not yet come accross a country that does not permit the use of such small gas burners for model steam use, (although some are very specific about the connections between gas tank and burner, In the UK this has to be in a solid copper tube form, with no flexible tubing, of any sort, permitted) and, as Derek has pointed out, all that is usually required is application/check to/with your local model club, which is often required for insurance purposes in any case.

Ok  PD's, hope you found the above of some interest.

There will now be a 3 month delay in delivering a certain OZ boiler so that I can recalculate his efficiency figure down to 20%.... :twisted:    :twisted:

Sandy

[SSMA Bruce]

I'm not a registered professional, but I am an engineer.   :wink:

Given that I did poorly in thermodynamics, I think I would light the fire, then run the boat till it stopped.  I'd then add water and fuel and run some more.  

 

[Eddy Matthews]

I got lost after "Lets take Dereks boiler" Sandy! :-)

Hands up all those who fully understood that  :nose

[sandy_ACS]

 

I think I would light the fire, then run the boat till it stopped. I'd then add water and fuel and run some more.

Welcome aboard Bruce...and I like your site...

I am inclined to do much the same as you suggested, although I should know better...but thats part of the fun.....not so good if the steam runs out when you are 100 yards of shore though.

Keep smiling    

I got lost after "Lets take Dereks boiler" Sandy!  

Hands up all those who fully understood that

Never mind Eddie...I'm not sure I understand it myself, and I wrote it :music

 :hmmm

It should be fun to see what Paddy Warner thinks of it...well he started it!
I just had to go along with it and poke a little fun in his direction at the same time...with luck, some of the PD's will get some enlightenment, but I am sure the technicalities are unnecessary for most modellers.

Regards to all

sandy    

[SSMA Bruce]

As for the 100 yards issue, thats why we bring the pigmy fishing rod and affixed tennis ball.  That takes care of the power loss issues.  Adequate flotation in the hull takes care of potential buoyancy issues (for craft designed to stay on the surface).  

What do the poor aviators do when the plan runs out of fuel?  

Cheers!

[sandy_ACS]

As for the 100 yards issue, thats why we bring the pigmy fishing rod and affixed tennis ball.  That takes care of the power loss issues.  Adequate flotation in the hull takes care of potential buoyancy issues (for craft designed to stay on the surface).  

What do the poor aviators do when the plan runs out of fuel?  

Cheers!

They run out of sky!!!!   ...silly

We don't have pigmies round here..so no point fishing for them.

Have fun.


Sandy

[derekwarner_decoy]

Hi PD's - well Sandy said Quote

"It should be fun to see what Paddy Warner thinks of it...well he started it!"

I think it is great we have on board a PD who can & will offer answers to questions about steam & considering that I consider myself as being principally or primarily responsible - [was I that asked the principal of ACS engineering to go to GOOGLE & type in "paddleducks" just a few short weeks back]

So here is another question for all to consider [but I can assure you that you will not find the answer on page 163 of "Heat Engines and Applied Heat" - ISBN 0304290815 - Cassell Books London - Author F Metcalfe

It was only assumed that the previously referred Technical person was about to eat a microwaved sandwich that contained CURRY, so the first part of the question is

We all know that the Earle of Sandwich is credited with sticking a portion of what type of cooked meat between two slabs of damper & calling it a sandwich

1) please name the cooked meat - was it oxen, goose, rabbit or duck :?:

2) second part of the question probably best left for Sandy, please confirm the califeric heat input required to cook say three hand fulls of the answer at question 1)

I am sorry I cannot be more specific re the quantity of food to be cooked as my memory suggests kitchen scales were not invented at the day of the BBQ

oh BTW - I did pass my steam & engine tests all those years ago, but any mention of hot & steamy these days usually has a direct co-relation to the quantity of FOSTERS needed to restore a thermal balance back into the body mass that was experiencing the thermal burn out   - Derek

[sandy_ACS]

Hi Pd's

Well. the history books tell it, they tell it so well!!....

'John Montagu' 1718-1792. 4th Earl of Sandwich and First Lord of the Admiralty and serving under the command of 'Lord North' during the American revolution.

A.K.A 'Jemmy Twitcher, a nickname given him due to his, alleged association with pirates.
Served also in the court of 'King George III' and was fond of playing cards...actually he was an incorrigable gambler, who frequented the many pubs and clubs of London, following the card games around the city.

It was during one of these card playing outings, in 1762,  that he asked an Inn keeper to bring him a few slices of BEEF (Oxen) (PROBABLY BULLOCK) within 2 slices of bread, so that he could take nourishment without having to stop playing cards. And so was born the sandwich.

I think, perhaps, he was looking for 'Lady Luck' rather than 'God' to be on his side......


 
Ok.. so now we know what meat it was....Now for the rest of this load of BULLOCKS......,!!! and for DEREKS GUIDANCE....we know these Ozzies need all the help they can get.....    

How many calories to cook it?.......

Given D.W's 3 handfuls...I'm not sure he isn't still thinking about the Call Girls from his encounters with the establishment......and lets be generous and say 3 handfuls is approx. 2lb weight (big hands)
The cooking rate is 20 mins. per lb + 20 mins...so 60 mins total.

This is to be at GAS mark 7 = 425 F = 218 C.

Given that 1 B.Th.U (mean) is = approx 252 calories.
1 Kw/hour = 3,412 B.Th.U (mean) = 859,811 calories (mean)

Now basing the calculation on a typical modern cooker of 4KW and a cooking time of 60 mins...so 4KW/H

this becomes 13,648 B.Th.U (mean) = 3,439,247 calories(mean)
If we assume that only, perhaps, 50 % would actually be transferred to the meat then the rest would go to heating up the kitchen...Much like D.W's hot air.......    

Fuel Used.
If we assume that, in 1762, the fuel used was Hard wood (say English Oak) with an approx calorific value of 7,400 per lb...

Hence 3,439,247 / 7400 = 464 lb of wood required.

If we further assume a max heat transfer rate of 20% (open BBQ) then 5 times this amount of timber would be required, which comes to
approx 2323.8lb  or a little over 1 ton.

All this for a nutter who should have been putting this wood to much better use (i.e. BUILDING NAVAL SHIPS)

Now....to cook a whole side of BULLOCK............No wonder all the Forests are disappearing....

BTW...Ozzie Eucalyptus, probably only has 1000 calories/lb at best... ....so 7.4 times as much would be required to cook the same bit of tucker......and that's why most of the place is barren dessert.....

I suppose it's a good thing for us Brit's, that we had guys like 'Lord Horatio Nelson' waiting in the wings, ready to take over, or we would all be speaking Spanish by now.......

 :?:  Now what would a Spanish speaking, Irish deported Ozzie sound like??......The mind boggles.  

Answers on a post card to Derek .......

Keep happy PD's


Sandy  :nah  :nah    

[Eddy Matthews]

Nice one Sandy - It certainly brightened up my day! :-)

There is a small problem with your calculations though - The whole point of a BBQ is to get as much heat as possible into the food to be cooked, such that the outside turns to charcoal before the inside has a chance to cook - It's like the Baked Alaska of the meat trade!

[kiwimodeller]

I thought Derek was in Australia not Alaska, they're at different ends of the world don't ya know and may well need boilers with filler plugs on the opposite side.

[sandy_ACS]

Nice one Sandy - It certainly brightened up my day! :-)

There is a small problem with your calculations though - The whole point of a BBQ is to get as much heat as possible into the food to be cooked, such that the outside turns to charcoal before the inside has a chance to cook - It's like the Baked Alaska of the meat trade!

Ok Eddy.....Nothing wrong with the calculations though, well maybe..... I will admit, perhaps to a poor choice of words....I should have said INCINERATE, rather than cook....but I thought D.W might have difficulty with this word, so chose to use COOK.

       

Sandy

P.S I think Derek would chose 'upside down pudding' don't you think??

[sandy_ACS]

I thought Derek was in Australia not Alaska, they're at different ends of the world don't ya know and may well need boilers with filler plugs on the opposite side.

     :hmph

Oh no.....Ian, don't tell me I've put his filler plug on the wrong end....


As for ALASKA...well they have another problem...all their water is in solid form which makes the location of the normal filler plug irrelevant...  

Ah well!!!!!!!!

sandy

[derekwarner_decoy]

Common PD's please - I think its a bit unfair of you all & so can you stop picking holes  :nose in the Scottish thing here - the persoin responsible for that Scottish boiler buildong Co [which will remaim name nameless] has suggested

"There will now be a 3 month delay in delivering a certain OZ boiler so that I can recalculate his efficiency figure down to 20%...."

So with the Scottish timeleness multiplier of a XXX factor of 3 months may mean I nevere see the goods until 1/1/2009

Please let the heavons preserve me until then   & if I get just a bit empty,   - oh BTW Sandy, did you note the last OF SITE post where I mentioned NO Scottish tube bends will be required - just supply the straight lenghts of UNBENT = straight tube, as my mate Tony from acrosss the ditch has offererd one of his 1/10 crew will do the little bends down under & that way they will not need re-reversing as all bends made on the upper side of the equator are back TO FRONT  -  :roll: Derek

PS - Eddie - have you noticed that whenever I potste a note directed back at this same Scottish Boiler Builre that """SPELLCHECK""" seems to somehow get off the rails & accept ayn version of wirds? :?:  :twisted:

[Red_Hamish]

fit like a'' ? ye ken the waur o't ah kint evry ward thon chiel spak whaune'r thon new-fanglt SpellCheck did the chang' ower tae Scots.
   Maybe ye ken o a universal language whaur ne'r a wrang wird gins a gley.
 :gather  
For those who do not appreciate there is a difference between the language used in Scotland, I'd be inclined to use the Doric of the North East whereas those in the North west and upper Highlands would use Gaelic or have a gentle lilt, and the anglicised folk of the South use lowland Scots with variations on a theme either East (Edinburgh) or West (Glasgow). At the end of the day even for such a small country we even cannot understand each other unless it is written  :roll:

Ask a Scot who is better than him and the most likely reply is "Naebody and if they were then their a' deid"

All the very best

 Slainte  

Jim