Paddle motors

[Derek Warner]

The Saga Continues!! - on Friday, September 27, 2002 1:45 PM, Brett [PS Industry] wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've been looking at side window winder motors as they are very narrow, about 30mm
along the 'flat side' and also have a gearbox fitted. So one could fit them end-to-end without much trouble, however,
the one I've been playing with turns at 3700 RPM reduced to about 100 via the gearbox, BUT, its final drive fitting
is a turning gear, not the shaft
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Brett & all PD's - I was at the motor wreckers 12 months ago & spied one of these little window winder motors
& purchased one there & then - & driving home considered shrinking an aluminium V belt pulley over the output gear

Big problem I found was that the motor appears not to be continuously rated - current draw started at 1 Amp - after say five minutes motor temperature increased to hot to touch [>40 C] and current draw was >3 Amp - I supposed that windows were
not designed to be wound up & down & up & down etc - so gave up on that idea

Also rear window wiper motors from modern Japanese cars have similar sized motors, but the output shaft has an oscilating
motion as opposed to rotary

I would be most pleased to understand the current draw from your window winder motor [was mine just a dud etc] - Derek

[Mike Mayhew]

Oh shame on you paddleducks with twin motors. Use a single drive motor and a toothed belt drive to the main shaft as the real boats have. You will then learn HOW TO DRIVE a paddler! My PS.WAVERLEY is 1:24 scale and is 12 ft long, 3ft wide and weighs in at 250lbs on the water. Power is at present a 1/3 hp 12v motor via toothed belt reduction gearbox to give a maximum sheaft speed of 55-60 RPM. This gives me a scale speed of 18-20 knots as on the real boat. I can stop from full ahead in 3 meters again as the real boat. I have driven the real thing from time to time and it is quite different from any other ship handeling I have done in my sea going past. The only concession I have made is that I fitted a balanced rudder to assist steering at low speeds. I am about to convert WAVERLEY to steam with a twin boiler unit and a V4 engine coupled to the existing gearbox.

Even my 1:48 scale paddlers only have one motor and a fixed shaft. I can get round any steering course, and so can you all.
My ADELAID will be steam, but for trials be fitted witha temp electric motor. {1:24 scale}
Thanks Dereck W, for the infro re adelaid. The port of Echuca have been fantastic in their help, and have sent off to www.r2modelmarine.com for the plan to compare with what I have drawn up. I can supply gears and belts for toothed drive but old Qualcast lawn mowers have a very sturdy belt drive which spares are available in garden centres/hardwear shops.

When leaving a quayside or jetty, swing on the paddle box using a "spring" this is a short rope from bow or stern to the quayside.
In model form a short ahead or astern motion will swing the model as the inboard box will be in contact with the side of the "bank" and you can then steam off and get way on to use the rudder. I use AsTec speed controllers HF 15 which I sell by the score UK £29. as these are very reliable and solid. WAVERLEY's paddles go from .5 RPM to 55RPM without any problem. and the Speed cont has been installed for three years in all climat conditions and has always worked.
Sorry this is a long screed but I have been following the tales of motors & drives for some time now and felt I had to add something to the Pot. Happy sailing to you all. Mike
Best Regards ..... Mike Mayhew
33 Kenn Moor Drive,
Clevedon.
North Somerset. BS21 5AR
http://www.waverleymodels.co.uk

[Paulrjordan]

With apologies to all who posted today..this was actually written
yesterday (Saturday) but I waited till today to post it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A very good morning to you all from Canada..where I have been avidly
reading all your posts (and enduring the mounting frustration of not
having time to jump in and add my "bit"). I have particularly
enjoyed the recent exchanges between our Ozzies and Mike regarding
one of the most frequently debated topics on Paddleducks..."paddler
drive trains" and today I resolved I had to jump in with a couple of
thoughts.

--- In Paddleducks@y..., "mike mayhew" <waverley.models@v...> wrote:
> Oh shame on you paddleducks with twin motors. Use a single drive
> motor and a toothed belt drive to the main shaft as the real boats
> have.

For those who have read my earliest posts about sidewheeler
propulsion, you'll realise I've given a lot of thought to the subject
of single versus twin engine drives. It's no secret I do like twin
engine independant drives on paddle wheelers...they're fun to
operate, very impressive on steering courses, quite an engineering
challenge BUT ( as Mike reminds us)... incorrect for virtually all
passenger carrying/excursion sidewheelers. Primarily it all boils
down to how "authentic" you want your model to be but, since it's
YOUR model you can build her which ever way you find most rewarding
and fun. Chances are when you take her to the pond and she performs
flawlessly on the water, your admiring public will not care if she's
got one, two or ten engines...but I do think we should make an effort
to accurately reproduce models which are refelections of actual ships.

For me, there's a very simple rule...follow the original if you're
building a scale model of an actual vessel. I never stop wanting to
learn more about the prototypical engine configurations of historic
paddlers and it's been a source of many emails and conversations in
my life, and will continue to be as we learn more about the subject.
Here's a simple guide though. I have yet to encounter a passenger
carrying sidewheeler with independant wheels. (In fact I'm still
trying to track down an apparent 19th Century British Act of
Parliament which prohibited the use of any split drive for a paddle
steamer carrying passengers and/or any ship operating in open sea and
you can read my very early posts as to why). I'm not sure if this
also applies to paddlers on the Murray, but perhaps "Capt. Dennis"
(Kerr) could fill us in on that. On the other hand, British Paddle
tugs have certainly used twin engines with independantly driven
wheels and my beloved "Director" Class (last Naval paddle tugs ever
built) is one of the best known examples. Bill Hannan in his
booklet "Fifty Years of Naval Tugs" provides (very basic) specs on
virtually every Naval Paddle Tug and without exceptiion lists each as
having "independant wheels with feathering blades". Bill Hannan was
one time Master of the Paddle tug "Robust" and numerous other
Devonport based tugs. The advantages in manoeverability of this kind
of set-up were tremendous...and undeniable! However, information I
have gleaned from RMAS crews strongly suggests they were required to
lock their shafts in open sea... and Hannan confirms that in his book
too.! Bill Wilkinson, the most famous British Paddle tug modeler,
recently wrote to me how he powers his enormous models of Royal Navy
sidewheel tugs "Pert" and "Cracker" which both have independant
drives to each wheel.

I believe if you look through the pages of P.N. Thomas you will find
instances of split shaft steam paddle tugs. Mind you, I'm sitting
here looking at a drawing of "Reliant's" twin side lever engines
(which I always thought to be independant) and the main shaft appears
to be connected. "Reliant" has been beautifully modeled with twin
live-steam engines by our own Stuart Badger in Sussex UK and I had
the pleasure earlier this year of visiting him in his workshop.
Stuart...could you maybe throw some light on the subject of
independant v. fixed shaft set-ups on "Reliant" and other British
paddle tugs. David...could you please take a look through P.N.
Thomas and see if we can find any twin engine shafts that look like
they may be "disconectable"...I'd also appreciate any input from
others around the world as to the use of independant/fixed shafts on
sidewheelers in their country.

> Even my 1:48 scale paddlers only have one motor and a fixed shaft.
> I can get round any steering course, and so can you all.

With the utmost respect to Mike, I do believe I could turn my
1:48 "Director" with her twin engine contra-rotating wheels in a far
tighter turning circle than any single shaft model...and it's not
surprising..they're two entirely different types of vessels for
vastly different purposes. What I believe Mike is actually saying is
that the beauty and grace of "Waverley" or any similar single
engined, fixed shaft paddler can only be truly captured in a model by
reproducing the original set up. "Waverley" or "Jeanie" spinning
around on their axes with contra-rotating wheels would simply not be
correct. As mike says, these single shaft paddle steamers were (are)
surprisingly manoeuverable and, for me, the skill of all paddlewheel
ship (sternwheelers and sidewheelers) crews in dealing with shallow
draft, currents, windage and often very confined navigational
environments has always been a source of wonderment and admiration.
Stories of 18 year-old Pacific Northwest sternwheeler Captains
shooting rapids at hair-raising speeds downstream (an authority once
told me as fast as 45 miles per hour with the current!!!) make me
shake my head in wonder. I stood next to the Chief engineer at his
pedestal in "Waverley's" glorious engine room last May as the ship
was docked at a number of our ports of call and each docking and
departure was executed like a perfectly choreographed ballet. With
virtually no outside visibility from the engine room (just one small
porthole looking into each paddle box) the speed and direction of
the huge wheels were effortlessly and immediately synchronized to the
bridge orders...and not even a bump or lurch to indicate we had come
to rest against the wharf.

And as an an added help to manoeuverability, one of the other FUN
(and I believe unique) aspects of British paddle wheeler modeling
occurs when you discover your prototype was also equipped with a BOW
RUDDER...such as the fabulous "Medway Queen" and many others which
operated in narrow estuaries. (I have to thank Ady Selway for
educating me on this subject). Many smaller estuary ports simply
didn't have enough room for excursion sidewheelers to turn about in
order to depart a port forward, so...they simply "backed out" with a
helmsman controlling a rudder build into the foot of the stem!! I
have watched old movies of this and you'd be surprised at the speed
with which these paddlers could reverse into open sea with full
directional control.

Your posts have prompted me into some further thought (and
recollections) about paddler rudders (and I'm talking sidewheelers
here..NOT sternwheelers which are entirely different from a physics
perspective). I have never had to overscale a rudder on a paddler
model nor alter it's pivot point. (admittedly I've never built
anything close to 13 feet long!). For some strange reason
(especially as there is no prop wash passing over the blade)
prototypically scaled rudders seem to work equally well on models in
spite of the old law you "can't scale water". (Mind you look at
those "barn door" jobbies on some of the Murray paddlers!).

Mike continues:
>to give a maximum sheaft speed of 55-60 RPM. This gives me a scale
>speed of 18-20 knots as on the real boat. I can stop from full
>ahead in 3 meters again as the real boat.

Now this is where I have a question for Mike..again using the YCSW
("You can't scale water") law, in order to achieve a realistic model
speed, I have always had to artificially "assist" (cheat actually)
wheels that are the same dimensions of the original ship...either by
increasing revs in the water to 2 beats a second and/or increasing
float area...again I've written lots on that subject. I'm interested
that Mike can power "Waverley" at a prototypical scale speed at 1
beat per second (just like the real ship). Mike...did you increase
the float area to achieve this..if not..then there's a secret we all
need to know as it's very difficult to achieve this ratio in smaller
models.

Once again, thank you all for your enlightening posts on this
important subject. Keep them coming as I so much look forward to
reading them and only wish I had time to respond more fully to these
and ALL the excellent posts I have been reading on "Paddleducks"

PJ

[Dallinson]

For me, there's a very simple rule...follow the original if you're
building a scale model of an actual vessel. I never stop wanting to
learn more about the prototypical engine configurations of historic
paddlers and it's been a source of many emails and conversations in
my life, and will continue to be as we learn more about the subject.
Here's a simple guide though. I have yet to encounter a passenger
carrying sidewheeler with independant wheels. (In fact I'm still
trying to track down an apparent 19th Century British Act of
Parliament which prohibited the use of any split drive for a paddle
steamer carrying passengers and/or any ship operating in open sea and
you can read my very early posts as to why). I'm not sure if this
also applies to paddlers on the Murray, but perhaps "Capt. Dennis"
(Kerr) could fill us in on that. On the other hand, British Paddle
tugs have certainly used twin engines with independantly driven
wheels and my beloved "Director" Class (last Naval paddle tugs ever
built) is one of the best known examples. Bill Hannan in his
booklet "Fifty Years of Naval Tugs" provides (very basic) specs on
virtually every Naval Paddle Tug and without exceptiion lists each as
having "independant wheels with feathering blades". Bill Hannan was
one time Master of the Paddle tug "Robust" and numerous other
Devonport based tugs. The advantages in manoeverability of this kind
of set-up were tremendous...and undeniable! However, information I
have gleaned from RMAS crews strongly suggests they were required to
lock their shafts in open sea... and Hannan confirms that in his book
too.! Bill Wilkinson, the most famous British Paddle tug modeler,
recently wrote to me how he powers his enormous models of Royal Navy
sidewheel tugs "Pert" and "Cracker" which both have independant
drives to each wheel.

David...could you please take a look through P.N.
Thomas and see if we can find any twin engine shafts that look like
they may be "disconectable"...I'd also appreciate any input from
others around the world as to the use of independant/fixed shafts on
sidewheelers in their country.

Paul.
Firstly, I must say that it is very good to have you back in the discussions
again.
>From my studies it would seem that if a tug had twin engines it could easily
connect the two shafts together for work in a seaway, (anywhere outside dead
level harbour water). There were some accidents when a twin engine ship with
disconnected shafts, rolled heavily in a cross sea and one paddle came clear
out of the water. As far as I have seen, in my reading, no passenger ships
were built with easily disconnectable twin engines. Some have a coupling of
some sort in the middle, but I believe that this was simply an engineering
design requirement, not an operational requirement.
As late as 1868 there were 224 tugs and ferries on the Tyne made of wood and
only 12 were iron built. 1885 saw the end of wooden built tugs. Almost in
living memory!! Most tugs were too small to squeeze twin engine into!!!
It should be remembered that most of the early paddle tugs were very small
(usually much less than 100ft, 75 to 80ft being the most common size) and
were only used to tow relatively small sailing ships in and out of port.
They did not need to be very manoeuvrable or large. It was only in the later
1800s when the commercial ships were getting too big to actually berth
themselves, that tugs really started to be used inside the ports assisting
ships along side. They then had to be much more manoeuvrable. However by
that time screw propulsion was also beginning to come into its own. I
believe that relatively few twin engine tugs were built. Cue the John H.
Amos. She really must be preserved!! Following on from the other on going
discussion on rudders. The Paddle Tug "AID" had rudders at both ends. She
had a bridge set in between the twin (fore and aft) funnels and appears to
have been able to operate in either direction. If I remember rightly, the
old ferries (not paddlers though) that used to run across Auckland harbour
(before the bridge) were also built like that.
(Incidentally the P.N.Thomas "British Steam Tugs" book should on everyone's
bookshelf )
Happy paddling
David

[dragoncity]

On 27 Sep 2002, at 8:47, Paddleducks@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:15:17 +1000
> From: "Derek Warner" <derekwarner@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Paddle Motors
>
> The Saga Continues!! - on Friday, September 27, 2002 1:45 PM, Brett [PS Industry] wrote
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I've been looking at side window winder motors as they are very narrow, about 30mm
> along the 'flat side' and also have a gearbox fitted. So one could fit them end-to-end without much trouble, however,
> the one I've been playing with turns at 3700 RPM reduced to about 100 via the gearbox, BUT, its final drive fitting is a
> turning gear, not the shaft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Brett & all PD's - I
> was at the motor wreckers 12 months ago & spied one of these little window winder motors & purchased one there & then -
> & driving home considered shrinking an aluminium V belt pulley over the output gear

Thats a nice idea ! I think that I would make a 'flange' that is shrink fitted to the gear so that allows me to attach
different size pulleys rather than a fixed size.

>
> Big problem I found was that the motor appears not to be continuously rated - current draw started at 1 Amp - after say
> five minutes motor temperature increased to hot to touch [>40 C] and current draw was >3 Amp - I supposed that windows
> were not designed to be wound up & down & up & down etc - so gave up on that idea
>
Mmmm , not child tested !!

Interestingly , I could not find out how they stopped the travel of the window ? There
was no 'limit' switches fitted to the winding mechanism, maybe they depend upon the current draw to 'cut out'
the power when the window reaches its actual limit, or chop your fingers off.

> Also rear window wiper motors from modern Japanese cars have similar sized motors, but the output shaft has an
> oscilating motion as opposed to rotary
>
I was wondering just how they do that, presumably gears in the housing, and also if they could be modified to run
rotary ?

Have a look at some of the FRONT windscreen motors for MAZDA, some models are 2/3's the size of FORD XD
and offer 2 speeds as well. I'm thinking about gettting two for my next project, a P.S Pevensey @ 1:25. Now I know
how to get every thing working it should be much faster to build as the.S. Industry is my test bed. All the R & D is
done.

> I would be most pleased to understand the current draw from your window winder motor [was mine just a dud etc] - Derek
>

I set up my window winder motor with amp meter in line and although I ran it for 10 minutes , in both directions,
it did not appear to draw more than 1 Amp, does 'flick' the meter on startup, but difficult to get a reading of,
and it did not get excessive hot, warm, but not hot.
So I guess your motor is a dud -- happens from high class suppliers like WE use !!

I tnink the rpm is around 100-120 , so the possibility of direct drive returns as a design option , which I prefer to
having to
setup pulleys shafts, etc I'll have to do more research on this. The motor & gearbox is about 600 grms and
most of the weight is in the motor so can be kept low.



Brett S Hallett

[Derek Warner]

on Sunday, September 29, 2002 11:08 AM Brett [PS Industry] wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Interestingly I could not find out how they stopped the travel of the window ? There was no 'limit' switches
> fitted to the winding mechanism, maybe they depend upon the current draw to 'cut out'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hey Brett - I think all the rest of the PD group around the world may be getting sick of wiper motor communications,
but that's because they have never tried and experienced the beauty and technical superiority of them over high
priced AMP guzzling model shop alternates - is ohm's Law still V= IR?

This brings me to the next questions, does it rain any where else in the world?, or is it only Australian vehicles that
have window wipers & motors fitted?

Mike Mayhew's 13 foot paddler uses a 1/3 HP 12 V motor which = consuming 224 Watts of power - if Mike had only
considered a wiper motor the current draw would have been 1/10 of that [mind you with a model @ 2 cwt, battery
weight would have been a blessing] - and yes I do acknowledge that Mike is to re-engine with steam

Mike also posted a note "shame on those" resorting to differential paddle use which I thought was fair and constructive
comment - however Mike did make note on his use of a balanced rudder in the said model

Is this a double standard here Mike? - like below water it's ok to fudge it, but above water must be true?

Back on a serious point, my lay understanding of a balanced rudder is that the rudder plane extends both FWD & AFT
of the rudder vertical axis shaft - again I understand the turning advantages [extra bite of water], however this by
necessity must put extra strain on the rudder servo drive

So another question Mike - I am sure all PD's would be most interested in learning how a 240 lb [2cwt] is steered,
literally from the servo to the rudder etc

Having said all this, the motor wreckers are open again tomorrow - so I will look further @ wiper motors & keep all
posted with further developments - regards Derek