PS Reliant feathering paddle wheel components

[Derek Warner]

Evening Stuart

In the shot Reliant MO9, you display a paddle wheel ring say 5" in
diameter -
brass maybe 0.100" thick - very fine - lazer cut? - is this a kit component?

regards Derek

[Stuart Badger]

Hi Derek

The paddle wheels are 7.25 inches in dia and are made from 3/32nd half-hard
brass sheet. I considered making the wheels up in the original fashion
(separate spokes and ring segments riveted together) but decided to cut them
out of single sheets of brass and add the detail. I marked out one wheel on
the brass and then sandwiched four sheets together with nuts and bolts
recessed into a ply backing sheet to provide a flat undersurface. I then cut
the rough shape using a bandsaw. This obviously meant 'splitting' the rings
to cut the spokes - but this was where the joins in the original were so
didn't matter. The joints were then backed with short silver soldered arcs
leaving a scale 'join' on the front face. The last stage was to file the
wheels to the accurate outline and clean them up. I don't EVER want to see a
file again!!!!!

The actuating float pivots are cut from a length of 1.5 X 1.5 X 1/8th inch
brass T section suitably shaped - 16 of them - I am NOT looking forward to
making the 128 ordinary float pivots!!! All the float support pivot rods
will be 1/16th silver steel. The actuating arms for the feathering will be
3/32nd square brass rod with silver steel end pins.

The paddle hubs are turned from 2inch dia brass and the wheels will be
bolted to them. Drive shafts for each paddle will be 3/16th silver steel
running on 3 ball races in a phospor bronze journal.

I contacted a firm about having the paddle wheels chemically milled - you
provide the drawing and they photo-etch the components but it would have
worked out at about £100 stirling - and it seemed a bit of a cheat to me!

The firm that does the photo-etching has a site at www.photofab.co.uk and
for fine, crisp components it is definately the way to go. You could of
course put as many different components as possible to fill the sheet size
and save an awful lot of work - all they require is an accurate drawing,
ideally a CAD file but they will work from 'normal' drawings.

The hull is now about 1/3 rd clad in copper plates - and I have very sore
fingers (must stop picking up the iron by the wrong end! - and why is it I
think I can hold a plate in position without any insulation between me and
it??!

Best wishes

Stuart

[Paulrjordan]

I am really enjoying the tech specs of PS "Reliant" as you build her.

> The hull is now about 1/3 rd clad in copper plates - and I have very
> sore fingers (must stop picking up the iron by the wrong end! - and
> why is it I think I can hold a plate in position without any >
>insulation between me and it??!

...and the amusing construction anecdotes you are writing. Please
make sure you make lots of notes and keep them in a safe place as
there is an excellent future Magazine article in there somewhere which
I'm sure John Cundell of Model Boats would be interested in.

Now one important issue..how are you addressing the
weight/displacement factor of the ship ? Have you done much tank (aka
"bath") testing yet?

PJ

[Derek Warner]

Sorry - am going to leave the whole message here Stuart - a bit too much for
comprenhension with my time & resources available - I understand about
machining the four paddle rings as an assembly etc, but where was the
NC milling station or lathe etc, but a true credit to you

Decoys wheels were not feathering so that makes it a little easier for me -
lots of 1/8" brass tube spokes into 1/4" x 1/8" section bronze inner & outer
rings, with the 1/8" counterbores and lots of Bakers soft soldering flux &
older etc

I will have bronze rings machined by others and all 160 x 1/8" holes will be
drilled in two multiple passes of 80 each position via a dividing head etc

Interestingly, what are you soldering the copper 0.010" hull plates to?

regards Derek

[Stuart Badger]

Dear Paul

Have now completed the plating and have uploaded some shots to the photos
section.
Bear in mind the hull is yet to be cleaned up with steel wool. The next task
will be to solder on the sponson support stays and brackets to the hull.

Ahh! you ask about the 'bath test' - well, after much calculation and
allowing for the weight of the engines and a guestimate for the rest of the
model I ballasted the hull and, like a fool, glues and screwed the engine
room floor over the ballast THEN I tried her in the bath - bad move!! She
floated exactly at the predicted water line , but WITHOUT the engines or the
rest of the superstructure - so I have now discovered how difficult it is to
remove a floor from inside a model tug that has been fixed with modern
adhesives! The new floor will be removeable - and if any further ballast is
needed it will be added AFTER the model is built by removing the Mk 11
detatchable engine room floor. :-)

Stuart

[Stuart Badger]

Hi All!

Just an update ont the model of Old Trafford/Reliant. I have been very
grateful for the advice here on paddleducks and having read what Eddie and
Derek had to say - modified my plans. The paddle wheels are now completed
and I have uploaded a couple of photos to the reliant folder in the photos
section.

After much thought I have NOT gone for silver steel Derek :-) and in view of
what Eddie warned of I have tried to reduce the weight of the wheels. The
hubs, floats, pivots and actuating arms are made of PVC. This machines
beautifully and is relatively light and very strong. Where bearing surfaces
are involved I have bushed the PVC with brass. The paddle shafts are brass
running in Phosfer bronze bearings with a ballrace support at the inner hull
end - all other bearings (as they only 'rock' not rotate) are brass to
brass.

The only disadvantage of using the PVC is the cement/adhesive!! If you want
to get completely spaced and lose millions of synapses do what I did and
forget to open a window!! Phew!!

As you can see I have primed the model to prevent the copper oxidising once
cleaned.

On March 28th I shall be taking my credit card and wife (always a good
move!) to Chedder models here in the UK to purchase the steam engines and
boilers - think of me-- it's gonna hurt!

Now help please - does anyone know of a source of miniature roller chain and
sprockets - the smallest I can find is 6mm pitch - way too big. Using
straight spur gears will be very awkward and I feel that toothed
belts/pulleys will involve too much friction. Any Suggestions?

Hope all is well with you paddler fans and that your projects are
progressing

Stuart Badger

[george britnell]

> Now help please - does anyone know of a source of
> miniature roller chain and
> sprockets - the smallest I can find is 6mm pitch -
> way too big. Using
> straight spur gears will be very awkward and I feel
> that toothed
> belts/pulleys will involve too much friction. Any
> Suggestions?

Hi Stuart,

Here in the States is a company located in New York
City named Stock Drive Products. They have every
imaginable miniature drive component you could think
of. I have bought parts from them many times and they
are exceptional to deal with. I don't have their
address with me as I am writing this on my break at
work but they have a website so just search for them
and it will come up.

Sincerely,
George D. Britnell

[Paulrjordan]

Absolutely FANTASTIC, Stuart..the finest set of paddles if ever I saw
one..all self feathering? in styrene? I have drawings of "Reliant's"
paddle wheels in front of me and yours look to be virtually "spot on".
This project in itself really DOES deserve a Model Boats article and
if you don't call John Cundell, the editor..then I WILL!!!

(Incidentally Co-Moderator, Eddy is about to be published AGAIN...Eddy
can you tell us which magazine you'll be featured in and the model?).

> The only disadvantage of using the PVC is the cement/adhesive!! If
> you want to get completely spaced and lose millions of synapses do
> what I did and forget to open a window!! Phew!!

Which adhesive are you using, Stuart? I ask because we have two or
three here that are withour odour..which is NOT to say they should be
used without proper ventillation...although at 3 am on a Winter's
night it's not always entirely possible!!!

> On March 28th I shall be taking my credit card and wife (always a
> good move!) to Chedder models here in the UK to purchase the steam
> engines and boilers - think of me-- it's gonna hurt!

Okay....yes good move taking the wife...her concessionary spending
spree should add quite a few bills to the puffer!

I believe you're in the Horsham area aren't you?..or at least not too
far from Brighton. If so..before you go to Cheddar Models, I want you
to visit a wonderful octogenarian model steam engine expert who lives
in Hove and still builds the most beautiful working model steam
engines. He's a good friend and would love to meet you and probably
answer every question you ever had about live steam power. He has
built a very good live steam model of PT "Chieftain" and has some
pretty firm ideas of steam powering paddlewheelers. If this appeals
to you contact me at canada.com and I'll make the arrangements.

Big question...You said you are going to purchase the steam
engineS. (plural). If I remember correctly "Reliant" had twin
sidelever engines and independant drives so this means two steam
engines in the model. Have you calculated the allowable weight you
have so the ship will float at the correct waterline. (Big danger I
have seen on new model sidewheelers is too much weight forcing the
sponsons too close to the surface of the water. Have you done ANY
"bath testing" yet?

Oh by the way...another thing I have to ask since I looked at your
most recent photos ...and you MUST answer truthfully..did you hesitate
AT ALL when you sprayed red paint over those lovely riveted copper
plates?

NOW..next thing is sponsons and paddleboxes...any thoughts on these
yet?..other than once again weight (or lack of it!) is a critical
factor.

> Using straight spur gears will be very awkward and I feel that
> toothed belts/pulleys will involve too much friction.

A chain drive would be fine and I seen have tiny ones. Some people
have even used the guts out of old clocks! They can sometimes be a
little noisy but not nearly as bad as gears (unless totally enclosed
in a gearbox). To me nothing ruins the illusion of a model paddler
more than the sound of grinding reduction gears from deep within the
bowels of the ship....all you should hear is the lullaby of the floats
gently striking the water...and, in your case, the hypnotic "puff
puff" of the exhaust stroke. (and you thought Eddy had the patent on
poetry here?). Rubber belt drives are probably "out" because of heat
from the boilers.

Once again, Stuart, congratulations on a fabulous job...and I too,
would love to hear more about the construction sequence for these
great looking wheels you've made. Keep us fully up to date!

PJ
Victoria, BC Canada

[Stuart Badger]

Thanks very much George - I have found their site - fantastic range of
stuff!

Stuart

[Derek Warner]

The wheels look superb Stuart - did you use a male & female die plates to
get the inboard set from the middle rim to the hub?, is that a series of
very
small metal thread screws attaching the hub to the spokes?, from the snaps
it appears that the only method of keeping the outer rims from movement
toward each other is by the positioning and attachment of the paddle blade
location points??

The reason I ask is that I have the CAD drawing file for the engraving Co
to cut the wheels - (outer rim + spokes + hub etc) but cannot decide
between brass or acrylic material (Decoys paddles were not feathering)
and I had assumed that I would add fixed supports behind each paddle
blade on mid height of the blade just inboard of the major OD

Any comments here to steer me in the correct direction greatly appreciated

regards Derek

[Stuart Badger]

Hi Derek
thanks for the kind words!

To get the set from the middle rim to the hub I just placed the wheel face
down on a sheet of thick glass and bent the spokes up using a height guage
to ensure they were all the same. I had previously drilled the holes for the
hub attachment by working out the 'real' length of the spokes.

The brass spokes are attached to the PVC hubs using 8BA screws (about 3/32
dia).

The original drawing only shows triangular bracing between the hub and the
inner rim - so the portion of the wheel outboard of the inner rim is
unsupported but the whole assembly is really rigid once that inner set to
the hub is established.

I guess bearing in mind Eddy's comments about stability that it's best to
compromise between weight and strength. I chose brass for the paddle wheels
because it is relatively rigid. Plastic or acrylic would be lighter but
fairly 'floppy' - by the time you had material rigid enough to be practical
I suspect the thickness needed would make it look non-scale and be almost as
heavy as brass. I would definitely go for a plastic material for the hubs
and floats however (even wood for the floats) as strength is not an issue -
the sheer mass of the hub ensures it will be strong enough and provided the
floats are held securely they don't need to be very strong at all.

Hope this helps.

Stuart

[Derek Warner]

I am sure down the track you will post generous detail of the engines &
boiler being
installed etc, but knowing your planning I believe you know what (max) RPM
the
model paddle wheel will rotate at - please tell us now

I think I mentioned some months ago that your PS Reliant will (I think be
our first)
true steam model Paddler - so we all await with bated breath!!!!!

I have seen a posting from you responding to the advice ?? American site for
small
small small pitch roller chain which is good as many paddlers were chain
driven

regards Derek

[Stuart Badger]

George!!!

My VERY sincere apologies and thanks :-)) It was YOU not Randy who told me
about where to get my chain and sprockets. Thanks again and next time I'll
try NOT to get my mails muddled!!

Stuart