Medway Queen Dunkirk - correct stats

[PJ]

I just happenned to glance at the Appendices Page of the David L. William's book, "Glory Days Paddle Steamers" and I am confused by the statistics he quotes in his appendix 1, "Paddle Steamers engaged in Operation Dynamo"

He quotes "Medway Queen" as making her 7 crossings (more than any other Paddle steamer) but only credits her with evacuating 2,914 soldiers.
My understanding was she saved over 7,000.

According to Williams the greatest number rescued by a paddler was "Royal Eagle" (4,015), and he places "Medway Queen" as second on the list for soldiers rescued by paddlers.  

Len (Knight) quotes the following information at the MQ Web site.
"... record number of crossings to the beaches of Dunkirk in 1940, where she rescued 7000 men during seven trips, a record for any craft smaller than a destroyer, gaining four awards for gallantry, having shot down three enemy aircraft."

I'd really like to find out what the correct number is for "Medway Queen's"
Dunkirk record.  The question emerges if there is a serious error in William's record and if his published data is flawed.

Len??? Can anyone help please.?

Thanks
PJ
Victoria, BC Canada

[David Allinson]

PJ.  
I had a look at the Association of Dunkirk Little Ships site  http://www.adls.org.uk/  and that gives the figure for the Medway Queen at 7,000 men saved. I would think that figure is probably the correct one as the site seems very well researched. Lots of good info about the Medway Queen. Well word a read.  
All the best  
David  
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-----Original Message-----
 From: Paddleducks [mailto:preserved@paddleducks.co.uk]
 Sent: 08 May 2005 16:33
 To: preserved@paddleducks.co.uk
 Subject: Medway Queen Dunkirk - correct stats  
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The following message was posted on Paddleducks, by PJ  
I just happenned to glance at the Appendices Page of the David L. William's book, "Glory Days Paddle Steamers" and I am confused by the statistics he quotes in his appendix 1, "Paddle Steamers engaged in Operation Dynamo"
 
 He quotes "Medway Queen" as making her 7 crossings (more than any other Paddle steamer) but only credits her with evacuating 2,914 soldiers.
 My understanding was she saved over 7,000.
 
 According to Williams the greatest number rescued by a paddler was "Royal Eagle" (4,015), and he places "Medway Queen" as second on the list for soldiers rescued by paddlers.
 
 Len (Knight) quotes the following information at the MQ Web site.
 "... record number of crossings to the beaches of Dunkirk in 1940, where she rescued 7000 men during seven trips, a record for any craft smaller than a destroyer, gaining four awards for gallantry, having shot down three enemy aircraft."
 
 I'd really like to find out what the correct number is for "Medway Queen's"
 Dunkirk record. The question emerges if there is a serious error in William's record and if his published data is flawed.
 
 Len??? Can anyone help please.?
 
 Thanks
 PJ
 Victoria, BC Canada
 
 
 
 Email reply, imported by Paddleducks Mail System.

[mjt60a]

I just happenned to glance at the Appendices Page of the David L. William's book, "Glory Days Paddle Steamers"...The question emerges if there is a serious error in William's record and if his published data is flawed.

...I also noticed in the paragraphs on Ravenswood that the picture of the ship 'in it's final condition' shows fan-shape paddle vents whereas in Paddle Steamers by Bernard Cox, ravenswood was fitted with square covers with unglazed portholes/fake bull-rings for ventilation (giving a similar look to Bristol Queen/Cardiff Queen - but in my opinion less effective with the lack of deck houses...)

***Edit - oops sorry, I was thinking of another book, Paddlesteamers in Camera - Allan T Condie, the Text DOES describe enclosed paddle boxes but the picture shows traditional ones...
...Back on the subject, I also believed Medway Queen carried the most evacuees from Dunkirk - my brother said there's a film about it...

[lenknight]

Hello P.J.
Re the numbers of troops rescued from Dunkirk, in which the Medway Queen made seven trips, little dispute on this fact, and should not be too hard to clarify. But as to the amount of men that came home on this paddler, is a different story. It must be remembered at this time it was of the utmost importance to save as many of our able bodied troops as humanly possible. No one was standing there counting as they came aboard, or possibly at the other end, speed was of the essence in turn around.
The whole operation must be looked on as a ‘Miracle’ to have achieved this evacuation in itself. No time for clipboards and such like, that’s war, its potluck on the end results.
However, it was possible for the Medway Queen to take on in the region of 1,000 troops, including crew. Its peacetime pre 1939 capacity was something like 800 to 900 including crew. How many came back on each trip is hard to say, but it must have been as many as they could. One of the trips back it took on more troops from the Brighton Belle, which had hit a wreck, and was sinking. (it was noted on this trip that the Sponsons were awash with water, other wise on the point of sinking)
I have talked to some of these men that came back on this paddler, they all talk of the paddler being ‘Crammed full’ little space to move, but all being ‘Fed and Watered’ some having no food or water for days on end. Most slept from exhaustion all the way back, having little idea of the passage home. The crew was also in this state, having only time to stock up ship for the next trip, so very little sleep.
The numbers as quoted 2,914 men, it is so precise! That I find  hard to except, which means on a rough average only about 400 men were a board the Medway Queen each trip, does not add up to my findings at all.
I believe quite a lot of effort has been put into this subject of numbers on board, by many other. All the results have been to the 7.000 men mark, (Which is the numbers quoted on the MQPS website) but I don’t think this can be clarified for sure. I would certainly like to think it was nearer that mark than much less than that figure. Having been involved in the 1939-45 war, believe me chaos remains supreme at times, nothing is neat and orderly for sure when action is upon you, old ‘sweats’ will know what I mean.
Len Knight MQPS

[David Allinson]

Hi there Len.
I had another look at the website which covers all the little ships that were involved in the Dunkirk episode and it gives a huge amount of detail on the various trips made by the Medway Queen and quotes many peoples recollections.
The higher number would seem to be nearer the correct one as the ship seemed to be pretty full on each trip. I am assuming that you have read the reference at  http://www.adls.org.uk. (You probably know it by heart!!)
It seems very unlikley that there was a person sitting at the end of the gangway with a clip board checking off each person as they staggered ashore!! The exact number will likely never be known, but I would think 7 trips at 1,000 per trip is as good an estimate as any.  
Why would the ship come back to England less than half full? Makes absolutely no sense, does it?
All the best
David

[Waverley]

Hi all - I'm no expert on Dunkirk, but I have a horror of inaccurate books so had a quick look at the adsl website - I found 2 separate references to Medway Queen with very conflicting information.

The first is the one you mentioned above and gives a total of about 7000.

http://www.adls.org.uk/shipinfo.cfm?id=57&RestTrust=0

The second is accessed from the button "ships involved in operation dynamo" on the home page - look for "naval vessels" and "minesweepers" - this link should get you straight there:

http://www.adls.org.uk/dynamolist.cfm

This link quotes the figure of 2914 troops.

Unfortunately, the site is horribly vague about the meaning of these figures, I know, however, that not all the persons evacuated from Dunkirk were British troops (the Medway Queen item above quotes a Frenchman who escaped on her) so that may explain some of the discrepancy.  

It would be interesting to know the origin of the 7000 figure - is it an officially quoted one, or one based on the assumption that she was up to her passenger limit on each trip? I wonder if 500 exhausted troops, mostly lying down, didn't make her look as full as 1000 happy trippers standing up?  I would like the 7000 figure to be correct but now feel a need to be convinced.

I have to disagree with other posters, though about the lack of a count on arrival back in England.  I am quite sure it was taken, at least approximately. There are always pen-pushers around to organise that sort of thing, no matter what the crisis. The Dunkirk side was no doubt highly shambolic, but there is no reason why the English side should be anything other than organised.

Firstly, there would, in fact have been plenty of time to do take a count. It could not have been a case of loading as fast as possible and heading straight back to France because the crew would need rest or replacement, there may well have been a requirement to wait for an escort and most importantly, she would have needed fuel - and bunkering takes time.

Secondly, the Military authorities would need to know how many, and who had been saved.   The men were transported away from Kent in a very large number of special trains - it would make sense to work out who had survived before they were dispersed rather than afterwards. The men still had to be fed and paid and prevented from going AWOL - impossible to organise if you don't know who is there.

The only thing I am certain of, now, is the source of Mr Williams fiqure of 2914 in his book.

Regards

David Milne

[lenknight]

Hello David,
Re the number of men brought back on the Medway Queen from Dunkirk. It will never be established as fact how many were landed in Blighty. Most like to think that 7000 was the figure as it was possible that 1000 a trip was its payload just, but as you say possible far less. The figure that is officially quoted is unlikely to be right, and I will tell you why.
Having been in the Army wartime as well as peace, I have never been check off of anything, as to on, be it ship, train or lorry. Only that at the end of the day I was present, immaterial of how I got there. Being sent by any transport, you are checked on for sure, for obvious reasons, this would have not been possible at Dunkirk.
It is quite possible that at some time during the evacuation some attempt was made to do so, but I would have thought this was of little use at the time. All the information could be gathered better after they were rested and fed, as they would have been sent to ‘Holding Camps’ which there were many. From there they would have been sorted, receive pay and given leave to return home to their own, for a brief respite, to return to their respective units after.
Of the few Dunkirk veterans that I have know and spoken to none have mention this phase, only the trauma of their home coming.
Perhaps someone out there knows different.
I like to think that the 7000 men were indeed near the amount, but maybe far less on the days of confusion that must have been Dunkirk, albeit a defeat, we still like to look at it as a victory of human valour.
Even to this day people like myself never even thought that we could lose the war, we now know how close we came to that possibility.
Maybe because of this way of thinking the few are still trying to save a paddle steamer know as the ‘Heroine of Dunkirk’ that still remains to this day, as most of you know.
 Regards Len Knight, MQPS