Paddleducks

Paddler Modelling => Construction => Topic started by: DamienG on January 18, 2018, 07:29:11 PM

Title: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 18, 2018, 07:29:11 PM
I spent the remainder of my Chrissy money on 3 plans to think on for future builds.

1/ Irene a tad small at 14 3/4in I'll scale her up 100%

(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/16/57/96/23/s-l16010.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/16579623/92)

2/ A steam packet ship.

(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/16/57/96/23/s-l16012.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/16579623/95)

and

3/ Lulonga

(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/16/57/96/23/s-l50010.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/16579623/93)
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on January 18, 2018, 07:41:11 PM
If it was me I'd go for the steam packet...could be adapted to ACW blockade runner or a  an 'aviso' in a European fleet of the same period.

No criticism intended but I can't believe that another '3' is the best choice on variety criteria!!.....
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 18, 2018, 10:26:38 PM
The steam packet would have to be modified to paddle only drive I think a dome covering the paddle drive pulley and I would hopefully be able to skip the propellor shown in the pic.
Prop models stall on lake within minutes there's so much weed.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on January 19, 2018, 07:47:11 PM
I'm showing my ability to miss details again...I never noticed the prop!!!

Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 19, 2018, 10:24:51 PM
 :sobbing :sobbing :sobbing haha I didn't notice the prop until posted the pic.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on January 20, 2018, 07:48:53 PM
...so the paddle wheels are dummy in the original design?

I would ignore the prop and drive it via the paddlers as God intended.

The only other hybrid that comes to mind is Brunels's 'Great Eastern' but I'm sure others can name more!

What is the scale of that plan please?
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 20, 2018, 09:15:19 PM
Doesn't say scale comes on CD in in two sizes 19 inch and 38 inch.

Bought on ebay from Canada bought from them before and plans are well detailed.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Model-Boat-Plans-RADIO-CONTROL-STEAM-PACKET-MODEL-BOAT-PLANS-NOTE/292396120996?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

$7-57Au
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 21, 2018, 03:00:06 AM
Almost all the plans they sell on that site are pirated from Model Boats Magazine.
Gerald,
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 21, 2018, 01:28:20 PM
If that's the case I can't understand why Model Boats haven't sued them? I've bought many plans from them over the years.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on January 21, 2018, 07:58:43 PM
Thanks for the Ebay link....that plan is relisted and I was very tempted!

Their other items include a few paddlers and among other stuff there is a plan and photos of 'Bleasdale', a Scarborough paddler I haven't come across before.

Because of the postage one needs to buy a handful of plans but I am tempted on a few I must say...there is a Clyde Puffer in there too.

Many of them state they are 'Model Boat Plans' so they are quite open on the source.......in any event, as long as they're available I'm happy!
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on January 21, 2018, 07:59:54 PM
...and they have good old Josie...I forgot to mention...!
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 21, 2018, 10:31:51 PM
That's where I got my Josie plan.  :great :great
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 22, 2018, 03:14:30 AM
If that's the case I can't understand why Model Boats haven't sued them? I've bought many plans from them over the years.
Probably for the same reason that others have not sued John Tom, it would cost too much and they would receive next to nothing. I have heard that the couple that do them receive a letter from one of the publishers about every six months which they ignore. They used to reply requesting proof of copyright, which most publishers never acquire.
Gerald. 
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 22, 2018, 11:56:28 AM
The plans I've bought all have the designers name on them.
I have tried to buy plans from MB plans service and were expensive and postage was twice the price of the plan.
I have built many boats from MB magazine free plans over the years.
I even built a  3 metre powered glider from a half page photo & plan from a march 1963 Aeromodeller when I eventually sold it a wine grower who'd never flown a model bought it to scare birds off his crop.
I doubt it lasted long. 
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 29, 2018, 12:25:06 AM
Hi Damien and all,

The following suggestion seems rather excentric, but very interesting: Bazin`s roller boat.  I Think, a long time ago in this forum already there was a post with pictures. Bazin`s roller boat was really existing - it should be not too difficult to make an extraordinary model...
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 29, 2018, 12:42:55 AM
Idea for making the rollers - this bamboo bowl has exactly correct diameter of 30 cm for a model scale of 1 : 32. No joke!

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 29, 2018, 02:39:30 PM
 :clap :clap :clap

Perhaps little paddle blade on the wheel float would eliminate the need for a propellor making it a paddle boat.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on January 29, 2018, 06:49:49 PM
Even strips on the side of the wheels like spokes might provide adequate forward motion.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on February 02, 2018, 09:16:39 PM
I really consider of building a 1 : 32 model of Bazin`s roller boat. By the original boat the rollers were turned by 3 small steam engines of only 50 hp each to minimize friction between this elements and water. May be, with more powerful engines the success of the construction would have come to better results? At the model, the rollers could be turned by electric motors, the screw by steam engine. The attraction, to make such an model, is the uncommon and singular construction.  Although some questions are existing: Nautic stability, displacement, weight and draught, Probably the solution must be experimental. My occupation came to an end this year, there will be time to more fields of interests. In every case, the roller bout would be a unique technical construction...

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on February 27, 2018, 09:41:07 PM
Another possibly project:

Interesting little paddlesteamer "Marie" on Lake Ammersee in Bavaria. The boat was built by Escher-Wyss in 1878 and in navigation until 1908.
Plans I draw with enlargment to scale 1 : 24 from the drawing of late Will von Gaessler, a bavarian engineer and great steamboat enthusiast.
The model with lenght of 110 cm would be manageable, but big enough to install a steamengine.
I add some pictures, the potrait is the legendary lake Ammersee captain Ludwig Brackenhofer.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on March 02, 2018, 08:08:18 PM
Another plan and watercolor by Will von Gaessler: First Lake Ammersee steamer "Omnibus", builder date unknown, but probably before 1870.This little paddler was first used on river Neckar and Ludwigskanal (Connection between River Main and Danube, initiated by King Ludwig I).
She came in 1877 to the lake, but wasn`t very suitable caused by the small locomobile type engine and stability problems. The water color shows the boat together with the new "Marie".
By "Omnibus" no contemporary picture exists, W. v. Gaessler draw plan and picture after historical descriptions.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on March 02, 2018, 10:29:59 PM
Some terrific information, thanks Thomas :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on March 03, 2018, 03:18:17 PM
Hullo Thomas.......Omnibus this is a rather ominous name for a Paddler  :squareone.....

When you mention stability issues, we assume this was countered by the addition of a float like additions bolted to each side of the hull fwd of the paddleshaft axis

It would be interesting to build, but very small as a model if kept  your standard scale

Derek

PS.....the specification data listing 250 Person's would appear a little optimistic
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on March 03, 2018, 08:56:29 PM
Hi Derek,

yes, the floats were added because great stability problems on the lake with wind and waves. Scale should be at least 1 : 20 for a model, but I would prefer "Marie"- in 1 : 24, a little boat with good proportions.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on March 04, 2018, 03:15:28 AM
Yes Thomas......I do like the profile of the "Marie" and proportions should be fine for your fleet :whistle

That reverse Cruiser bow looks appealing, the smaller horizontal boiler and a semi exposed engine  :kiss1

The stern rudder looks a little short but could easily be increased  :crash

Derek


Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on March 04, 2018, 06:09:53 AM
Hi Derek,

yes, the rudder must be enlarged. Send a few further pictures of small Amper river steamer "Marie Therese" later "Wessobrunn". Amper is a diminutive river, which comes out Lake Ammersee. The excellent 1 : 25 models of "Marie Therese" and "Marie" were made by the resident ship modeller Peter Stumbaum - our member Andy, who lives at Lake Ammersee, will know him.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on March 04, 2018, 08:16:45 AM
Thomas....this "Marie Therese" would appear to be a great contender for a Regner 12x36 split engine....just as you have used before

With a little thought :gathering, I think it could inclined & split with one cylinder on either side of the boiler :trophy

Derek
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Bierjunge on March 05, 2018, 06:59:57 PM
Just another oddity concerning the Amper river steamer "Marie Therese"/"Wessobrunn":
After decommissioning, it was purchased by the famous Ammersee resident, inventor and sports sailor Manfred Curry (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_Curry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_Curry)) who converted its hull into a stylish, Art Deco steamline luxury yacht:
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/587d1f84a5790ab82ba8944c/t/5890b733f5e23143abb37ad5/1485879122073/?format=750w)

Moritz
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on March 05, 2018, 10:33:35 PM
Doubtless really fascinating ship architecture, Moritz. I dont want to dimish the workmanship. But the impression of speed is only external, the streamlined "Tiger" hasn`t any propulsion, she only was used as a houseboat.
Biggest and most beautiful paddler on Lake Ammersee was "Gisela" later "Augsburg", in navigation from 1893 to 1963. I add the historic photo from 1893 und the plan of Will von Gaessler. Peter Stumbaum made an excellent 1 : 25 model of her.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on March 05, 2018, 10:40:14 PM
Peter Stumbaums model of "Gisela"
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on March 18, 2018, 07:40:33 PM
If I could find some plans/details I would build the 'Kaiserin Elisabeth', or one of the other paddlers, in the Austrian Fleet of 1866 at the battle of Lissa.

I believe she was built in Glasgow but that's all I know.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on July 26, 2019, 08:52:07 PM


Bought this kit today on ebay from an NZ seller Overall length 14 1/2"
No need for extra length as I'll not be sailing anymore.

(https://i90.servimg.com/u/f90/16/57/96/23/1167011.png) (https://servimg.com/view/16579623/311)
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on July 27, 2019, 05:34:25 PM
Hi Damien

Sorry to hear you will sail no more....I'm the same but I hope new building projects will more than compensate.

That kit looks almost identical in look and size of the on I lost in a sinking in the 'early '70's that I described in an email earlier although mine was entirely scratch-built. I think I will look for one of these to bring back memories and even to go sinking with lol!!
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on July 27, 2019, 07:25:12 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on August 20, 2019, 09:38:36 AM
I didn't realize until I opened the box it's a plastic kit.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on August 20, 2019, 05:32:08 PM
I knew that!!

If you want to shed it I would consider a reasonable price plus cheap postage from Aus.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Paddlemex on August 21, 2019, 09:55:01 AM

Now that you have mentioned it …
Looking at the box stating "186 pieces" may point to a plastic kit.
I guess nobody saw that in the first glance at the box.

Plastic kits can be entertaining and if you don't want to sail anymore …

Jurgen
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on August 21, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on November 09, 2019, 10:36:48 PM
Very interesting project, the "Carolina", first Danube paddler from 1817 with open steam engine and boiler. First I saw the little 1 : 50 scale model in  Budapest Trafic museum (Közelekedesi Muzeum), long time ago. I now have enlarged the plans to 1 : 10 scale, this would give a very wide model of 133 cm lenght and hull breadth of 32 cm, breadth over paddles would be 67 cm. Indeed nearly all parts of engine and boiler must be selfmade, the cogwheels are obtainable in trade. The model except engine and boiler would be not too difficult, I consider, whether my ability is enough, to make the boat with live steam propulsion.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on November 09, 2019, 10:44:16 PM
Another static model of "Carolina" in Vienna, Bezirksmuseum Floridsdorf.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on November 10, 2019, 01:27:15 PM
I do find this vessel interesting Thomas.......

At first I thought  IMG_3965 and Caroline 1817 were the same model...but this is not the case

The steering is a little different between vessels and IMG_3965 had a rope drum? at the AFT end of the engine mechanism

Derek
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on November 10, 2019, 08:18:52 PM
Yes it is. But I think the main difference are the feathered wheels of the second picture. The paddles were diving in complete vertical manner in and out water, the excenter was above the hub of the wheels. This is also visible at the antique picture of the "Carolina".
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Paddlemex on November 12, 2019, 12:43:06 PM

The very peculiar arrangement of the engine makes it an interesting build. It looks like the cylinder is in the boiler.

Also the different types of paddle wheels caught my attention.
Could it be possible that Mr. Bernhard, the builder of the full size ship, made several types of wheels while he was testing the "new" invention?
The hanging feathering mechanism looks a lot like the mechanism Claude Jouffroy used a few decades earlier. Maybe Bernhard then discovered that fixed paddle wheels where easier to build. Or was it viceversa?

Jurgen
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on November 13, 2019, 05:05:49 AM
Hi Jürgen,

a very exact descripion of Bernhards boat is protectet. Obviously the boat has this feathering paddles - the same manner like Claude de Joffroys model in Paris.  I made pictures of the description and will post it - sorry, the description is in german language. Hope, it will be possible to read it!
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Paddlemex on November 14, 2019, 03:58:56 AM

Very interesting - and in parts entertaining - description. Unfortunately (for most) in German.

Here a hint for those who want to try anyway: I had a neckache after reading the first page sideways, but then I realized that if you open the image by clicking the little clip under the image it will open in a separate window and there you can rotate it to be upright.

Jurgen
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on November 17, 2019, 07:46:28 AM
I found this article in the book "Low Danube Paddle Steamers" by Romanian author Cristian Craciunoiu. This "ADA" ist a strange but interesting little steamer, a model built would not very expensive and difficult. Nevertheless, I don`t belief the conjecture of the author, that the Ada`s engine would be the former engine of "Carolina".

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: kno3 on January 19, 2020, 09:21:51 PM
I found this article in the book "Low Danube Paddle Steamers" by Romanian author Cristian Craciunoiu. This "ADA" ist a strange but interesting little steamer, a model built would not very expensive and difficult. Nevertheless, I don`t belief the conjecture of the author, that the Ada`s engine would be the former engine of "Carolina".

Thomas

Very interesting story. The Ada would indeed make a very interesting model,  because of the exposed engine and gears.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 19, 2020, 11:18:00 PM
Yes, she is very interesting. For a while, I considered that she may be a suitable object for the step by step instruction of building a steamdriven model in my making book of steamboat models. But probably the gear reduction with big cogwheels would be too difficult for unexperienced modellers.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Tomas Krejci on April 02, 2020, 11:57:12 PM
Hi all,
            let me go back to my model of Lulonga and my articles here at Paddleducks.(sorely the original link was closed)
One of my articles here  described the unusual design of sternwheelers (KDRK). There are links to youtube, only in Russian language. However, I recommend that you review the links.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD0IIoDBDP0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4anj82CXTMc

To illustrate, I attach pictures of the wheels of my model Lulonga and a new design of wheels, which the manufacturer consulted with VGUVT (Volga State University of Water Transport).
Even to return to my Lulonga model, the model is quite manoeuvrable, but the problem was the longitudinal balance, due to the shape of the back. This reduces the rear displacement combined with the weight of the wheels and engines. Therefore, I recommend extending the model by at least 20 cm (8 ").
 Somebody can wondering why the paddles are angled on the wheels and not parallel to the wheel shaft (as seen on most ships)?..
You can find the answer in one of my articles here at Paddleducks. It is a shortened translation from a Russian source, which is unfortunately unavailable right now. Basically, it is about increasing the efficiency of fixed-paddle wheels. I have such wheels in the model Lulonga.
It is difficult to assess effectiveness on a model.
But the model is easy to operate and turns in place (each wheel is steered separately). Worse, the model is short and hard to hold direction  because it has a flat bottom.
ps> http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6228.msg34636#msg34636
  >http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6113.0
  >http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6228.0
 
Greetings
Tom
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on September 03, 2020, 06:58:07 PM
A nice and very well built african sternwheeler. Also interesting the diagonal paddles. I know, that there is an preserved american sternwheel tugboat also with diagonal paddles. But - this will be an interesting question: Is the grade of efficiency really better than with even paddles?

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on September 03, 2020, 07:08:54 PM
Also a good proposition for future builds: The little sternwheeler "Explorer" of lieutenant Ives Colorado expedition 1857. The picture was made by german painter Balduin Möllhausen, a member of the expedition. The hull of "Explorer" was made of iron and nearly 100 years later the remains of the little ship were discovered in a swamp near the river - only the skeleton with rips and frames.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Tomas Krejci on September 03, 2020, 10:31:26 PM
Hi,
      as for diagonal paddles, I think research of this type has confirmed its effectiveness (see the excerpt of articles). As for my model - I would say it is more adroit than if it had direct paddles.It is also partially visible by the shape of the keel wave. As I wrote, the model is powered by two independent motors with a gearbox and is controlled by changing the speed of the left or right engine. Using diagonal paddles, it rotates practically in place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79HU1iBjRd4&list=PL7LWozsdJ62yxvE8-CjQWKRz5dFNAvgsR&index=2
But I didn't try the model with straight paddles..
Plus, I quite like the diagonal paddles...
Greetings

Tom
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Tomas Krejci on September 03, 2020, 10:56:42 PM
Maybe new russian paddleboat with diagonal paddles from Moscow

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQS_0BMU_F0

Tom




Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on September 04, 2020, 03:06:27 AM
Interesting construction.
Of course, the paddles must be anti - streamlined as far as possible and these diagonal paddles are the closest possibility. But it seems strange, that this construction was only realised very rarely.

Greetings Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Steven S on September 06, 2020, 08:16:42 AM
Hi Tomas - I am designing my own version of an Australian Drogher in 1:24 scale as I can't seem to find much information anywhere.  I'm wondering if anyone thinks that diagonal paddles would be too out of place on it.  I am starting out with the standard paddle configuration, but I think that I will make a set of these type of wheels to test on it.


Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Tomas Krejci on September 07, 2020, 02:11:07 AM
Hi Steve,
             If you try both types of paddles, I will be curious about the result of their comparison.
I have two engines in my model, each with ESC, I control all with one stick. I have motor control on channel 3 (throttle) and channel 1 (ailerons) mixed using a V-tail mixer. It seemed easier to me, I couldn't set the mix directly on the transmitter, the transmitter mix didn't work properly. I normally have rudder on channel 4.With such a mix it is very simple to operate.
But I must say that I really do not know a similar steamer in Australia (on the Murray River) with a similar configuration.
In the French magazine Modele Reduit de bateau there is a plan of a steamer with a similar configuration (quarterwheeler).
Somewhere I still have a plan for a similar German steamer, also designed for Africa.
Tom
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Steven S on September 07, 2020, 11:19:05 PM
Our summer is coming to an end here in Canada, it was 5° when I got up today and will get to a high of 11° so building season is just about here.  I will build the boat over the winter and will do some comparison runs with both types of paddlwheels next spring Tom.

Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on September 08, 2020, 07:28:02 PM
Interesting boat, Steven. Can yo post a plan or any drawings?

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Tomas Krejci on September 08, 2020, 10:49:55 PM
Hi,
     I enclose here a circuit diagram of my Lulonga model. I control the model with the right stick on the transmitter,Channel 3 _throttle - engines forward and backward and Channel 1 Ailerons -for right and left steering.
Tom
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Steven S on September 09, 2020, 02:46:21 AM
Tomas – I use a Spectrum DX6 G2 transmitter to control my airplanes and my first boat.  It is programmable so I hope use the V-tail programming in it for this boat.  I am a few months away from that part of the project and will consult your wiring diagrams before starting, thanks for posting them.  I plan on using two of the same motor that I used on my first boat, built during the Covid shutdown as it sails very nicely with that setup.
  Thomas - I couldn't find any drawings so I am designing my very "non" scale version based on several pictures I've found and stories I've read.  It will be from 900 mm to 1 metre long and 280 mm wide.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Bierjunge on September 10, 2020, 05:25:50 AM
as for diagonal paddles, I think research of this type has confirmed its effectiveness (see the excerpt of articles). As for my model - I would say it is more adroit than if it had direct paddles.It is also partially visible by the shape of the keel wave. As I wrote, the model is powered by two independent motors with a gearbox and is controlled by changing the speed of the left or right engine. Using diagonal paddles, it rotates practically in place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79HU1iBjRd4&list=PL7LWozsdJ62yxvE8-CjQWKRz5dFNAvgsR&index=2
But I didn't try the model with straight paddles..
Plus, I quite like the diagonal paddles...
The thrust force (F) of a paddlewheel acts perpendicular to the immersed buckets. With diagonal buckets, the lever arm (r) for turning the boat is much larger. Therefore, steering by differential speed of the wheels is much more effective.

Moritz

Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Steven S on September 10, 2020, 07:00:22 AM
Yes - I agree and that is the direction I plan to mount the floats onto my wheels.  I have decided to make the hull 910 long and by 280 wide.  It will be 50 mm to the top of the deck so when submerged to the 38 mm waterline the displacement should be 8.25 Kg.  I work in Imperial measurements, but I think my conversions are about right (36" x 11" and 16.6 Lb).

I have started cutting wood for the hull and should be gluing it up in a day or two.  Would there be any interest in me starting a build thread or just wait until it's finished and I'll post the comparison test results here?
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Paddlemex on September 10, 2020, 09:37:13 AM

Quote from: Steven
Would there be any interest in me starting a build thread ?

That question should not be asked Steven.
Let us participate in your build. The more pictures he better.

Jurgen
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on September 10, 2020, 10:29:42 AM
I agree please post your build.

Damien G.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Eddy Matthews on September 10, 2020, 04:22:05 PM
I'm sure everyone would like to see a build thread, no matter how many models you build, you can always learn from the way other people do things!

Plus it's a good way for people that are new to the hobby to see how things are done and then take the plunge themselves....

Regards
Eddy
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: NoNuFink on September 10, 2020, 09:18:40 PM
Hi all. 
I'm a trifle confused.  Firstly I must admit to not having read every word of this thread so I may have missed something.
I read reply 60 and looked at the diagram and it all made good sense.
However I notice that the photos in reply 48 show the diagonal buckets sloping the opposite way.  Surely those buckets in the photos would cause a turning force in opposition to the off centre straight ahead force thus making steering worse? (Hope I explained that right)

I seek enlightenment having not built a paddler(yet).
Cheers
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Tomas Krejci on September 10, 2020, 11:15:31 PM
Hi,
      I really recommend you read more links. For answer 60, you must imagine the inclination of the blades at the bottom dead center when the blades are in the water. If you are looking for answers 48 when they are at the top, so it seems to have the opposite inclination..
even padlewheelers are beautiful boats ..

Tom
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: NoNuFink on September 11, 2020, 01:55:13 AM
Ok Thanks for that.  My misunderstanding
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Tomas Krejci on September 11, 2020, 02:42:53 AM
OK, Nothing  happens, I also had trouble understanding everything correctly from the beginning..
Tom
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on October 08, 2020, 04:03:30 AM
I`m considering to make a big 1 : 48 model of blockade runner "Colonel Lamb", steamdriven. 25 years ago I`ve built the "Hope" in same scale, the plans are still in my own. The hulls of both stamers are equal, so it`s no big problem to built one more. But the superstructure of CL is complete different, as you see. May be, it´s possible, to make a good model with the pictures of CL museum models plus the fade deck sketch...

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: DamienG on October 08, 2020, 11:31:30 AM
It will be a beautiful model Thomas I'll look forward to your build.

Damien G.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on October 29, 2020, 08:58:39 PM
Strange little paddler "Eduard" for rivers Weser and Fulda, built 1843. Obviously the old lithography is not very realistic. But I draw a side elevation - this may be more corresponding to the original boat.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on October 30, 2020, 07:23:13 PM
What is that flag that she is showing please? Its like the US one but a union jack instead of stars. Not Hawaiian though but similar?
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on October 30, 2020, 10:44:08 PM
I don`t know. First I supposed, it could be the flag of Kurhessen (Kassel at river Fulda), but it is complete different. The territory east of river Weser belongs to the Kingdom of Hannover at this time. But also this flag is different. Least but not last the flag of Hannoversch Münden (confluence of river Fulda and Werra to Weser and home port of "Eduard") but it is the same - no similarity. Perhaps it was a private flag of Wüstenfeld brothers, the owners of the boat?
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on October 31, 2020, 07:06:15 PM
Thanks for that. Yes I too, by default, assumed it was the flag of one of the German states it operated in. I find the flag identity an intriguing issue but know nothing about the flags in question. But I still think it is some kind of blend of US/UK or similar.

I'll report back if I dig up anything.

Looks like a really interesting model to build so I will watch your progress with the usual keen interest that your work always provokes in me.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on October 31, 2020, 07:24:18 PM
Having done a google I now think it is the flag of the British East India Company (I thought I recognised it bout couldnt dig it out of the little grey cells!).

Please see: https://www.google.com/search?q=east+india+company+flag&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj7zMfvst7sAhUJghoKHZzdAmEQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=east+india+company+flag&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADIECAAQHjIGCAAQBRAeMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAUQHjIGCAAQBRAeMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAUQHjoICAAQsQMQgwE6BQgAELEDOgQIABBDOgcIABCxAxBDUKbdAViTlgJg9p4CaABwAHgAgAFHiAHxCpIBAjIzmAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=MR6dX7vwComEapy7i4gG&bih=657&biw=1396

If it's indeed an HEIC flag why is it showing on the mast of a German Paddle steamer of the 1840's? In the Opium War of 1842 the HEIC deployed a paddle gunboat, 'Nemesis', perhaps that has something to do with it?

Intriguing!
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on November 02, 2020, 12:00:17 AM
Very interesting, but also strange and - as you write - not conclusive.
 Doubtless the flag on the antique litho looks like the one of British East India Company.
The Kingdom of Hannover was in personal union with Great Britain from Vienna congress in 1815 until 1837.
This might be a - nevertheless - weak and not very probable coincidence to the flag of British East India Company.
 But this is only a vague presumption. And because the duration of the personal union was only until 1837 -
the boat was build 6 years later, this coincidence is questionable.
May be, it`s not possible to clear the facts of this case after nearly 180 years?
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 13, 2021, 02:00:29 AM
Interesting little paddler made by manufacturer and technical designer Ernst Alban (1791 - 1856) in Plau Lake district of Mecklenburg. The boat with wooden frames and iron planking was made in 1845.
Unique the "paddlewheel" with only two vertically geared floats. The boat was propulsed by a little high pressure engine with 20 hp made by Alban.
Model can be vieved in Plau Heimatmuseum.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Bierjunge on January 14, 2021, 06:24:08 AM
Unique the "paddlewheel" with only two vertically geared floats.
Hi Thomas,
Thank you for the pictures, that's really very special. A rather extreme example of an early feathering wheel with only two floats an a very high excentricity.
To see how it moves, I just made a little kinematic simulation of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ZRlsQvgeE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ZRlsQvgeE)

(https://up.picr.de/40318725bf.jpg) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ZRlsQvgeE)

Regards, Moritz
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Steven S on January 14, 2021, 10:09:01 AM
Your excellent animation showing just 2 floats makes it quite easy to understand the mechanism, but looking at figure 11 on the drawing in the top picture there seems to be 8 floats. I may be wrong, but I believe the view showing the 2 floats was just for clarity.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 14, 2021, 12:44:09 PM
Thanks very much for this very plastic animation. I hope, that many spectators will see your post.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Bierjunge on January 14, 2021, 06:54:01 PM
Your excellent animation showing just 2 floats makes it quite easy to understand the mechanism, but looking at figure 11 on the drawing in the top picture there seems to be 8 floats. I may be wrong, but I believe the view showing the 2 floats was just for clarity.
Sorry, but I don't agree.
Looking at Fig. 3 and Fig. 4, the casting of the hub b-e wouldn't allow to fit more than just two spokes. And looking at the bearing of the control rods n on the fixed excenter o, already with two rods, one of them has to be swan-necked not to impede the other. How could this possibly work with eight rods?

(https://up.picr.de/40318939ya.jpg)

No, Fig. 11 certainly just shows eight different positions to explain the motion:

(https://up.picr.de/40318941dy.jpg)

And finally, the Burgmuseum Plau (https://www.burgmuseum-plau.eu/seite/263951/schifffahrt-plauer-see.html), where the model is on display, speaks of "Dr. Alban's Raddampfer, der kein Raddampfer ist", meaning "a paddler without wheels".

By the way, the drawings also show other ideas, like Fig. 10 and 12 a variant with entirely parallel motion of the floats, which you would achieve when the excentricity of the control rod bearing and the length of the levers l are identical.
(https://up.picr.de/40318943ys.jpg)
But this would as well result in a kinematic singularity at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock (when only inertia can tell the float in which way to move), as in the impossibility of asymmetrically shaped floats (which are clearly shown in Fig. 4). Here's another simulation of this purely theoretical parallel version:

https://youtu.be/M6kfl2tLNi0 (https://youtu.be/M6kfl2tLNi0)

(https://up.picr.de/40318812nm.jpg) (https://youtu.be/M6kfl2tLNi0)

Moritz

Edit:
In Polytechnisches Journal 1848, Band 109, Dr. Ernst Alban writes:
"Now finally to the wheels. This device shouldn't really be called wheels; for it has nothing in common with it. (...)
It is therefore absolutely necessary that if oscillating shovels are to provide all the advantages that are expected of them, the shovels must go through the water completely independently of each other, and this happens only when only two shovels are used. Here one shovel is always above water while the other is immersed."

(https://up.picr.de/40318938wg.jpg)
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 15, 2021, 03:59:11 AM
Hi Moritz,

there are some explications by Ernst Alban in the Polyterchnic Journal. What is conspicuous: He seems very convinced about his boat and the construction of the "wheels" - he didn`t speak about wheels, but named
"kreisende Ruder" means "revolving rudders". The steamboat company wasn`t very satsfied about the boat, but it is not quite clear, what they find fault with.
Alban substantiates, that the revolving rudders were much more lighter than conventional wheels, the production was more easy and last not least the resistance of the air through the non working floats was less. I don`t
believe that last point was very important. I rather suppose, that the function of the revolving rudders were hard with big strain to the engine.
As you wrote, the whole construction is only possible with two floats. In every case, this function would be interesting in a model. The 22 m boat could be build in scale 1 : 24 or 1 : 20.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Steven S on January 15, 2021, 09:35:56 AM
Yes I understand now.  It would be interesting to make a set of these "revolving rudders" to try on a boat as a test
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Paddlemex on January 16, 2021, 05:57:03 AM

Thanks for the link to the animations Moritz. I had not been able to understand the mechanism from the drawings because I did not see the fixed eccentric pivot point.

Would be an interesting model with a nice splash-splash sound.
Would the not-wheel rudders be synchronized on both sides or off-set by 90°?
Synchronized would be hard on the engine and drive train, as Thomas already mentioned, but off-set would give the boat a certain duck-walk swimming.

Jurgen
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Bierjunge on January 16, 2021, 09:29:58 AM
Would the not-wheel rudders be synchronized on both sides or off-set by 90°?
Definitely both sides at the same angle:
Alban writes that when towing or hauling the boat in shallow channels, the wheel could be brought to a horizontal position, bringing all floats out of the water.
Furthermore, he writes that his paddle system is preferably driven by a single cylinder engine, which has its maximum torque at 90° crank angle when the floats on both sides are fully immersed, and passes its dead center by inertia with all floats out of the water:

If the crank goes over the dead centre, i.e. the power of the engine is zero, both blades are above water. The last drive of the engine, of which the force is not yet zero when the shovel emerges from the water, combined with the inertia of the heavy wheels, promotes the quick transition of the crank over the dead points and the wheels over the horizontal; after the transition over the dead centres, however, the new drive from the engine, which increases again immediately after this transition, will promote the entry of the blades into the water to such an extent that they immediately submerge again at the necessary speed and more to exert pressure against the water. At first, this pressure will be lower than later, because the shovel only gradually gets immersed and pushes its surface against the water. As the resistance increases, the power of the engine increases in almost the same proportion, and is increased to the greatest amount when the blades are at their lowest level. (...)
Only a single steam engine is necessary to move these wheels and keep them turning, indeed only a single one must be used, because a double one would more or less cancel out the beautiful harmony between load and force, and all relationships in the movements would be disarranged. (...)
One can easily bring the wheels entirely out of action and influence on the ship and its course, if one leaves them horizontal. This advantage is often very important in shoals and in canals, when you have to get too close to the embankment or the landing areas are shallow.


Moritz
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 16, 2021, 08:49:07 PM
Yes, the construction of the cooperation of engine and revolving rudders really was wll devised. It´a really interesting little boat. The "Alban" was lengthened in 1848 to 26 m. The end came in 1861, obviously casco and engine was
worn out - not very long time for an iron hulled ship.
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 31, 2021, 02:30:45 AM
Interesting Rhone freight steamboats "Ocean", "Mediterranee" and "Missouri" - incredibel long hulls.
These boats with 157 and 135 m lenght could bei build in scale 1 : 50/48. The problem of transport could be solved by making the flat long hull in three removable sections.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on February 02, 2021, 07:12:04 PM
They make me think of canal narrowboats. Were they designed to operate on canals or narrow (and straight!) rivers?
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Hankwilliams on February 02, 2021, 09:52:56 PM
Obviously this is not the reason. At least the Rhone between Lyon and the mouth is a wide river. Probably the enormous lenght of the casco results by reason of space for freight and and also hydrodynamical
causes - the speed of a displace ship depends of lenght of the hull.

Thomas
Title: Re: Ideas for future builds
Post by: Spankbucket on February 03, 2021, 07:21:14 PM
OK. Yes you are right. Probably makes them more economical as river freighters.