Paddleducks

Paddler Modelling => Card and Paper Models => Topic started by: waldenmodels on January 16, 2009, 08:23:59 AM

Title: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on January 16, 2009, 08:23:59 AM
Hello,
I'm researching the four-funnel paddle steamer "Connaught" of 1860. I understand that the London Science Museum exhibits a 1/48 scale model and was wondering if any member here lives close to the museum and would be so kind as to take a number of detailed pictures of the model for me. Here is one picture I found on the web:

Thank you very much!

Oliver
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: Walter Snowdon on January 16, 2009, 08:38:11 PM
I seem to remember seing a good fold out plan and lecture notes on Connaught in a copy of  THE TRANSACTIONS OF THE INSTITUTE OF MARINE ARCHITECTS. I cant remotely remember which year but it would have been shortly after the building of her. These volumes are exremely large and the nearest collection to me is in the Sunderland library- the staff have to get them from the basement and last time i was there needed a sack-barrow to carry four volumes! Regards, Walter.
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: waldenmodels on January 17, 2009, 01:42:48 AM
Thank you, Walter! Unfortunately that won't be an option for me :(  I don't think there are holdings on this side of the Atlantic either, though I will check. Would you be able to take a look if you happen to do research there? I'm in no hurry - I figure this is at least a couple of years away.

I did find a deck plan for the "Ulster" on the French Govt site, which may do for the general proportions. Together with detailed pictures of the Science Museum model that may be sufficient to develop a 1:250 card model. I've done something similar with the "Livadia" for which a kind lady in Glasgow made a trip to the Transport Museum for me.


Cheers,


Oliver
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: mjt60a on January 17, 2009, 03:13:40 PM
I don't live near the museum but do often go to london and sometimes take a look inside (it's free!) I'll be sure to get some pictures of the model next time I go.
I think this was it (?) last time I just took general pictures of almost everything paddler-related and don't remember what all the models were!
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: waldenmodels on January 20, 2009, 06:32:35 AM
Hi Mick - yes, thank you, that's exactly what I need! I'll be happy to send you copies of my current card model kits if you're interested, and of this one when it's done!  There's no rush, I have plenty to do in the meantime, but when you do get to the museum I would greatly appreciate the following pictures:
- Close-up shots of the deck (in overlapping sections, so that everything is covered at least once)
- Close-up shots of a paddle wheel & box, level, if possible
- Head-on shots of bow and stern, respectively
- Hull-level profile shots of the hull and superstructure, in sections if necessary.
- Masts and rigging.

Again, thank you so very much!


Cheers,


Oliver
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: Hankwilliams on January 22, 2009, 01:59:21 AM
Hi Oliver,

graceful elegant lines - remenbers to me to  the blockade runner "Hope" of the same decade.

If you get any further informations about her or sources of plans or drawings - please tell it to me.

I would be very interestet for some material.


regards Tom
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: mjt60a on January 22, 2009, 06:46:17 AM
I'll probably go there this weekend so I'll be sure to take a camera :)
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: greateastern on January 22, 2009, 12:57:25 PM
Tom,
The plans for the Connaught are in  John Scott Russell's book --A Modern System of Naval Architecture (1865), vol 3, plates CXXII and CXXIII and listed there as the Holyhead Royal Irish Mail Steamer.  They are complete and more than enough for any model project. Most of the plates are of ships he designed and a few by other designers but he was modest for everyone and didn't say which ships generally. In this case he mentions the sister ships and so it is easy to work backwards and discover it is the Connaught and Leinster built in Samuda's yard, the two others Ulster and Munster  built by Laird.
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: waldenmodels on January 23, 2009, 03:12:00 PM
@Mick - thank you very much, I really appreciate it and look forward to the pictures!

@Greateastern - Thank you also - that's great news that plans do exist! I googled "A Modern System of Naval Architecture" immediately. Alas, I found no accessible copies within a reasonable distance from me.

Cheers,

Oliver
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: waldenmodels on February 07, 2009, 06:09:56 AM
So... I was actually able to find a copy of "The Modern System of Naval Architecture" at a university near me (I knew there was one good reason for living in Massachusetts) It took about an hour and $2.70, but now I'm proud possessor of a complete set of plans for the "Holyhead Irish Mail" steamer. The plans comprised hull lines half-breadth, sheer lines, profiles and deck plans for one four-funnel vessel, and more deck plans for a second, two-funnel ship. The four-funnel liner must be one of the other three sisters of the Connaught, because the plans show a square stern, whereas the Connaught model shows a round one. No matter, though, the second vessel has a round stern and appears to have generally the same dimensions, so I'll be able to cobble things together. Then again - is the Connaught model "Gospel", i.e. as-built? Who knows? Either way, this ought to be a splendid little project. Thank you all for supporting me!

Cheers,

Oliver 
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: Stuart Badger on February 07, 2009, 08:47:35 PM
Hi Oliver

The Connaught has to be one of the most elegant paddlers ever. I presume you have this photo?
all the best

Stuart
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: mjt60a on February 08, 2009, 12:31:45 PM
Looks like some of the messages in this thread disappeared so in case anyone didn't see the photos (and would like to see them) here's the link again - http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x66/mjt60a/ps%20connaught/?start=0
Title: Re: Taking Photos at London Science Museum
Post by: Stuart Badger on February 08, 2009, 07:55:04 PM
Ah Mick!

thank you so much for these - I obviously missed them first time around - beautiful.

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 12, 2009, 12:33:00 AM
I've got my copies sorted out and am off to what I hope is a good start :)

Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on March 12, 2009, 08:38:04 PM
oh - she's long and skinny isn't she Oliver?! I can see that a working model of her needs to be big for some degree of stability. You have captured a lovely shape there. I'm STILL waiting for my drawings from the British Library!

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 13, 2009, 05:25:44 AM
She sure is long and skinny!

A bit confusing is the fact that the plans show a vessel with a square stern, while the 1:48 model of the Connaught has a round stern. The plans don't say which of the four sisters they show (they are helpfully labelled "Holyhead Irish Mail") Available photos show Ulster having a square stern, and one other ships with a round stern. The 1:48 model came from Laird Bros., who built the Connaught and IMHO ought to know what she looked like. Adding all this up, I felt justified in departing from the plans and slapping a round stern on my model. It's not very pretty yet as I have to draw the stern sections out of thin air, but it'll come out all right in the end.

Cheers,

Oliver

Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Eddy Matthews on March 13, 2009, 05:30:09 AM
Just as a matter of interest Oliver, what was the length and beam of the Connaught?

Regards
Eddy
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 13, 2009, 06:27:34 AM
Eddy, Sources differ, as they usually do. Consensus seems to be the following:

Length: 338' (variously given as 348'. I believe the shorter measure to be "between perpendiculars")
Beam: 35'
Depth: 20' 3"
Tonnage: 2039

Cheers,


Oliver 
 
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 13, 2009, 07:52:44 AM
Incidentally, research is somewhat complicated by the fact that there was another RMS "Connaught" launched in 1860 - also a paddle wheeler, but for the Atlantic service. This one came to a terrible end, though, whereas our Connaught lived through 37 years of almost constant service.

Cheers,


Oliver
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 21, 2009, 09:55:28 AM
Things are coming together. I'm happy with the hull now. I put some funnels on for show.

Cheers,

Oliver
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 22, 2009, 01:57:37 PM
I've taken a first stab at the paddleboxes and bridge deck.
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Eddy Matthews on March 23, 2009, 07:12:29 AM
It looks gorgeous Oliver!

The only sad part is that the real ship was so large, it would be too big for me to build as a working model :(

Regards
Eddy
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on March 23, 2009, 08:39:39 AM
That's Spooky!

I've been sitting here most of the day working on the drawings for the Connaught. At quarter inch to the foot you get a max beam of about 8 3/4 inches and an overall length of approx 88 inches. Given her length to beam ratio I can't see how you could build her much smaller for a PRACTICAL working model.

After a long chat with my beautiful assistant - a space in the house has been allocated!

This will probably be my last major build but she really is too beautiful to resist (the Connaught that is!)

So tomorrow I start enlarging the plans to 1/48th scale and dusting off the drawing board to fill in the missing details.

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 23, 2009, 11:25:30 AM
I've never built a working model, so this may be a naive question - but why couldn't one build this at a small scale, say 1/96 or so? They certainly make motors and servos small enough, don't they?
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: mjt60a on March 23, 2009, 07:21:42 PM
I suppose you could, the PBM 'edwardian' paddlesteamer is only about 4 inches wide (and almost 3 feet long) but is not very stable - or mine isn't anyway. you might need to increase the hull depth or add a weighted keel, like I've seen done on model thames barges...
At 1/48th it should be the same size as the museums model and would (should) allow for enough lead in the bottom... 
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on March 23, 2009, 08:26:18 PM
Hi Oliver

For various reasons model paddle steamers are inherently unstable. These stability issues are briefly;

Fluid effects on the paddle wheels and paddle boxes. (cavitation, unequal drag, paddle box innundation).

Dynamic effects (Tourqe effects of a spinning shaft transverse to the hull, gyroscopic pressession of the paddle shaft).

Low righting forces (as most of the weight on a paddler is outboard of the hull, roll recovery is minimal).

Most of these stability issues are made worse the higher the length to beam ratio of the model is. ie. a tug is much more stable than a pleasure steamer.

Many of these effects can be minimised (but never completely solved) by making the model of a size big enough to allow a low hull centre of gravity and more volume.

It's one of the fun challanges of building model paddle steamer - stopping them falling over!

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 24, 2009, 12:09:49 AM
Ah - thank you, Stuart! What I took away from reading up on paddle tugs was that they were very stable, and I assumed the same was true for these packets. In my mind the paddle boxes added to the beam, kind of like outriggers. Your explanation makes it clear that the opposite is true - I can see how a narrow hull become unstable, especially in a heavy sea, when one wheel may be digging deep into the water while the other almost spins freely. I also just realized that my 1/250 model will be about 42cm long with only 4.1cm beam  :o  I have to think up something special for the formers so the hull won't warp.


Cheers,


Oliver
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on March 24, 2009, 12:21:42 AM
When I have built long thin display models in the past I often used a full depth, full length centre former - 'cross halved' onto the bulkheads to give ridgidity. It also had the advantage of supporting the centre of the deck.

For the model of Connaught I shall probably use two nearly full length deck beams about 1.5 inches in from each side slotted to the bulkheads to prevent twisting.

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on March 24, 2009, 06:34:42 AM
That sounds good. I'll probably do something similar. In the meantime, we have sprouted masts and proper funnels and steam pipes...
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: greateastern on March 24, 2009, 01:21:34 PM
I had occasion to go to UCLA the other day and looked again at the Connaught. I failed to give you guys the first time the page numbers with the data and I can supply that if you didn't get it. I took my camera along. pp638-641. ALso, plate 124 is the plate with the decks. I hope you got that plate as well.
 THe figures are 328 BP, 327 lwl, 66'6" over the paddles, 35 breath, 21 depth, 13  draft, place scale 1:96.
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on March 24, 2009, 06:38:15 PM
Ah!

I ordered plate 122 and 123 as your original post - are you saying that there is another drawing showing deck detail?.  I have one sheet which shows lines, sections, and side elevation of the hull only (2 funnel), and a second sheet that shows a plan view thru-decks and a side elevation sectioned (2 funnel).

They cost quite a bit of money but if there is more I guess i should have it. What exactly is on plate 124 please?

Do UCLA do copies? It took 6 weeks for the copies I have to come from the British Library.

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: greateastern on March 26, 2009, 03:11:27 AM
My apologies for the screw-up. I'll see that you (and Oliver, if he needs it as well) get what you need to complete your work. It will be a few days though. Busy just at the moment getting a bridge fixed--no, not the one on my paddler, but the one in my mouth that I put my foot into..
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on March 26, 2009, 03:18:56 AM
I have just re-read my post!

You didn't screw up and I would have had to have the copy of sheet 124 anyway. I sounded a bit censorious didn't I - I do apologise!

The CD I got from the British Labrary is a superb way of holding drawings, it's scanned at 600dpi in a Tiff format - so no problem blowing it up to  48th scale, just print at 400% on several sheets! (I have an A3 printer) BUT it was about 50 pounds sterling per sheet! I would NOT have done it for any other ship!

I am at the moment moving furniture to clear a space!, but will probably start by building all the deck houses and small assemblies.

Thanks again for your help - if you hadn't of mentioned that the drawings were in Scott Russell's book - I would never have known!

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on April 04, 2009, 09:59:13 AM
Managed to add some quarter-deck details today...
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on April 04, 2009, 06:48:48 PM
Good work Oliver!

A Question! how are you going to tackle the funnel tops? The funnels are raked back at an angle, but the top of the funnel is horizontal AND there is a quarter radius flare to them - do tell, cos I'm scratching my head at the moment!!

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on April 05, 2009, 02:21:32 AM
I'm not sure what you mean, Stuart - the drawing of the funnel itself, or the development of the surfaces?

I drew the defining curves based on Russell's drawing, Rhino then creates the surfaces for you. I've done a quick development of the flare using the _Smash command. This is probably accurate enough for 1/250 scale, but in your case you would want to develop the piece in segments and then stitch those together to reduce the deviation. Then again, I'm not familiar with your construction methods - perhaps you don't need to develop the surface?

Cheers,

Oliver


Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on April 05, 2009, 02:53:45 AM
thanks Oliver.

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on April 06, 2009, 11:02:18 AM
You're welcome, Stuart - though I feel I didn't actually help you much  :-[

A bigger problem for me now are the stairs from the bridge to the main deck. The ones on the London model are pretty posh and nothing like those on the deck plan. I've taken a stab at it but they're not quite right - the banister seems to high, and they are probably to narrow. I suspect there are mathematical rules to the design of stairs, but I'm no architect, so it's trial and error for me...


Cheers : Oliver

Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on April 09, 2009, 03:42:05 AM
I had to do the stairs over twice before I liked them...

Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on July 18, 2009, 06:05:16 AM
Things had been quiet on this front while I was busy finishing up the Anglia. I've started on the paddle wheels. Here just the rims, no moving bits yet. Stuart, you're in for a ride! Not to mention that this will be quite a challenge at 1:250 scale...

Cheers,


Oliver
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on July 18, 2009, 07:46:14 AM
Now THAT - is a thing of beauty Oliver!
I have started planning the wheel construction for mine - and have visited our local pharmacy for a three year supply of valium. This hobby IS fun isn't it?

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Eddy Matthews on July 18, 2009, 07:55:02 AM
My word, how many floats did the Connaught have? I count 14 from the image Oliver posted!!

Regards
Eddy
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Stuart Badger on July 18, 2009, 07:56:45 AM
That's right Eddy - 14! AND on a stroudley curved spoke WITH oodles of internal bracing - DOH!

Stuart
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on July 18, 2009, 01:03:31 PM
Oh yes. Getting crowded in there... and these floats aren't feathered yet.


Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on July 18, 2009, 01:53:12 PM
"Oh yes. Getting crowded in there"....as Oliver says...in his collarge of clouds behind the wheel in his latest snap.... :sunglasses ....I can see UK, France & most of Europe & the sub Continent & the squashed up Americas.....but this must have been before the great land bridge broke away as I also see Australia [OZ & NZ]  :trophy ...but we is still in the northern hemisphere 'bit' of the world  

Is this a subliminal primitive map of the great world.......or just coincidence?  :kewlpics

Anyway ....great PC work there Oliver with the wheels....they will be very delicate so be careful not to do an 'Eddy'  :crash :hammer :oops :sorry.....Derek :beer
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on July 21, 2009, 07:55:18 AM
Erm...Not sure what you're on, Derek - but can I have some?  ;D

Anyway, here are the feathering rods. There are a few glitches I still need to fix, but it *should* work.

Cheers,

Oliver

Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: waldenmodels on July 22, 2009, 02:39:02 AM
And a picture of the whole thing as it looks now. This will be one sweet steamer :)

Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Eddy Matthews on July 22, 2009, 06:42:06 AM
The Connaught is looking very stylish Oliver, well done!

It's just a shame that the real boat was so BIG, which makes it an impossible subject for a working model for me - Transportation, and my knackered back (held together by screws and plates) would make it impossible to launch :(

Regards
Eddy
Title: Re: RMS Connaught , 1860 (was: taking pictures at the London Science Museum)
Post by: Alex on February 15, 2012, 09:51:36 PM
Good afternoon!Has Seen the photo RMS Connaught and has too solved his(its) build,but can not find the drawings.You will Not say,where their possible take?Answers or on this forum,or on e-mail  komrad.becschaew2010@yandex.ru :)