Paddleducks
Paddler Modelling => Construction => Topic started by: Eddy Matthews on February 03, 2005, 08:13:01 PM
-
Following on from my questions on constructing a paddlewheel for the "Suter", I also have a question about the hull on the model.... The photo below shows a static model of the boat with the hull dimensions exactly as they were on the real vessel. It can be clearly seen that the hull is VERY shallow! In my opinion far too shallow for a working model!!
So to get a reasonable displacement to carry the weight of drive batteries, motor, RC gear etc, I was thinking of increasing the depth of the hull.... But how much? 1.5 times the depth of real boat, twice the depth of the real boat?
And if I increase the depth of the hull, will that interfere with the flow of water to the sternwheel?
Your comments and suggestions would be welcome!
Regards
Eddy
-
That's a good question, I made mine deep enough that the battery I intend to use will be entirely below the waterline - though I'm not making an american sternwheeler so it was deeper to start with and only meant adding about 3/4 inch to the depth
-
What scale are you building it in? Remember it's a flat hull and it will float a lot. I was thinking the Suter model was r/c. I was trying to remember the guy's name who built it. He sent me several photos, but I misplaced his name and email.
Most sternwheel towboats only had a freeboard of about a foot. The Lady Lois has a simular hull and I didn't modify it. I mounted everything on the main deck instead of down into the hull and I filled the hull with styrofoam.
-
I'm building it at 1:32 scale (3/8" = 1'). At that scale it gives a beam of 10" (255mm) and a total length including the paddlewheel of approx 55" (1400mm). The model in the photo was built as a static exhibit by George Britnell who was kind enough to let me have a copy of the drawings he made for the model.
Using the scale hull dimensions at 1:32 gives it a draft of about 1" (25mm) with with less than 1/4" (6mm) freeboard! Is your Lady Lois really THAT shallow Joe?
Regards
Eddy
-
The Lady Lois hull draft is 46 inches with 16 inch freeboard at the lowest part so that makes the hull from deck to bottom 1 7/16 inch in 1:32 scale. From the size, Suter should have about a 5 foot deep hull under her. Lois is 100 x 20. The Verity was 130 x 40 with a draft of 61 inches.
I'd say if you want to increase the hull depth to 1 3/4 inch and put styrofoam in the hull like I did, you won't have any problem and it will still look accurate. I use the same styrofoam used in insulating homes usually found in 1/4 to 3 inch thick sections. You don't ever have to worry about sinking either.
It is best to mound the motor and gears to operate the pitmans on the main deck to align with the cranks on the wheels.
-
Thanks Joe, extremely helpful as ever!
Filling the entire hull with foam sounds like a good idea, with such a shallow draft and a relatively wide beam I can't see any stability problems with things mounted that little bit higher... And as you say, the motors and pitman arms etc will have to be mounted at deck level to get the drive line correct anyway.
Regards
Eddy
-
Just a question, filling the hull with won't increase the freeboard of the hull in fact it would decrease it because of the small weight increase, so do you add the foam to proctect the boat incase of sinking?
I think there is a software program available to calculate the carrying capacity of a hull, I think it is called HULL by someone called carlson? I'll chase it down .
Keeping the weight as low as possible will help with stability.
-
Found two free programs
Carene hull designing and lofting software
http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/Carene/carene.htm
Hull
http://www.carlsondesign.com/#Fun_Shareware
-
Just a question, filling the hull with won't increase the freeboard of the hull in fact it would decrease it because of the small weight increase, so do you add the foam to proctect the boat incase of sinking?
I realise it won't increase the freeboard Jock. My other interest is scale fast electric models and they are generally stuffed full of as much foam as I can get in them - That way they can flood totally and they'll never sink! They will sit very low in the water, but there's no danger of them ever going to the bottom of the lake.... With a model such as "Suter", the low freeboard is a concern, so foam seems like a prefectly good idea to prevent a possible disaster!
I think there is a software program available to calculate the carrying capacity of a hull, I think it is called HULL by someone called carlson? I'll chase it down.
Yes I've heard of the program before.
Keeping the weight as low as possible will help with stability.
Yes it will, but the distance from the bottom of the hull to the main deck is less than 2" in this model. The drive system HAS to be mounted at deck level to get the driveline correct, so it isn't like a narrow beamed relatively deep drafted sidewheel paddler where shifting the weight to deck level would be a MAJOR problem.
Regards
Eddy
-
I've been to my local model shop and bought the materials I need to construct the hull for the "Suter" today - Work should commence in the next week or so, and I'll post photos here as I progress.....
The biggest surprise of all came in the post this morning! 5 days ago I ordered a steam engine and a steam whistle sound module from the USA and they arrived this morning! Absolutely amazing!!! I've never known anything arrive from the States in less than 10 days, never mind 5!!
Oh and there was another pleasant surprise too - The customs and excise didn't charge any VAT (Value Added Tax, for our foreign friends). So the goods were cheaper than I was expecting! Hopefully that's a good omen?
Regards
Eddy
-
Eddy, have you bought RAM RC sound cards?
If so, I'd be interested in your comments once you've had a play around with them. From what you've already said the order processing and postal service sounds great.
I've used Craig Talbot's ACTion Kits in the past but I must say that the steam whistle sound effect in particular is somewhat less than spectacular in my limited experience. And the Kiwi Dollar (disparagingly referred to here as the South Pacific Peso) is pretty strong against the greenback at the moment so buying anything US is increasingly appealing.
Many thanks and good luck with the Suter. I look forward to seeing progress posted.
Cheers for now
Tony
Auckland, NZ
-
Eddy, have you bought RAM RC sound cards?
If so, I'd be interested in your comments once you've had a play around with them. From what you've already said the order processing and postal service sounds great.
Tony
Auckland, NZ
Hi Tony,
Yes they are the RAM units - Though I bought them from http://harbormodels.com as RAM don't do online ordering. I'll have a play around with them later today and let you know my opinions on them.
I've heard the ACTion units at model boat shows around the country, and I've always thought they sounded too synthetic (at least to my ear). If the RAM units sound like their online demo's of the sounds I'll be more than happy!
After reading through the blurb that comes with the RAM units, they do have some nice features - I'll explain more about them when I've done some testing....
Regards
Eddy
-
Hi Guys,
Well I've made a start on the hull for the "Suter". Some of the framework has been cut out of balsa, and I hope to start putting it together on monday. I've increased the depth of the hull slightly (about 3/8" or 10mm) which should give that little bit extra to play with so the model doesn't sit too low in the water - It will still sit VERY low, as all of these sternwheelers did, but I should have enough bouyancy to fit everything I need to.
Because the hull is so shallow, the whole hull will be filled with polystyrene foam after sealing all the wood with resin. The deck will then be glued on making a totally watertight container.... The motor and other gear will be fitted on top of the deck inside the superstructure. So the model should be unsinkable - famous last words! :-)
Once the basic hull is constructed, I'll try to get a few photos of it before the deck is fitted, so watch this space!
-
Here's the first stage in building the hull for the "Suter". Now that the basics are done, the hull will be covered in glass fibre, the inside will be sealed with resin, and then the deck will be attached...
-
Oooh, good, another model under construction :D
-
Eddy.
You make it all sound so very, very, very easy. I think that you must have the instructions in front of you……………… ?? That will never do!!
Good luck with some of the trickiest and stickiest jobs on the model.
Regards
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Paddleducks [mailto:construction@paddleducks.co.uk]
Sent: 08 March 2005 21:16
To: construction@paddleducks.co.uk
Subject: Suter hull?
The following message was posted on Paddleducks, by Eddy Matthews
Here's the first stage in building the hull for the "Suter". Now that the basics are done, the hull will be covered in glass fibre, the inside will be sealed with resin, and then the deck will be attached...
Regards
Eddy
Email reply, imported by Paddleducks Mail System.
-
The hull has been given to a friend who's a genius with fibreglass - He'll do the work a damned sight better than I could.
He can get a perfectly smooth finish, while I would have runs and lumps of resin all over the place! :-) I'd then have to spend the next week sanding everything to get a finish that could be painted!
Tomorrow I hope to make a start on the paddlewheel... I'll try to post photos as I progress. After that it will be time to look in detail at "Towboat" Joe's drawings for the pitman drive setup, as my model will be electrically powered - I'm not ready for the challenge of steam power just yet!
-
Eddy, when you go to make the cranks, make four identical cranks. Two for the wheel and two for the drive axle that will slide the pitmans back and fourth. If the radius is slightly off it will cause a kink in the mechanism and the pitmans will either jam or give a jerk when they approach a binding position. If you have any questions give me a holler.
Joe
-
Eddy, when you go to make the cranks, make four identical cranks. Two for the wheel and two for the drive axle that will slide the pitmans back and fourth. If the radius is slightly off it will cause a kink in the mechanism and the pitmans will either jam or give a jerk when they approach a binding position. If you have any questions give me a holler.
Joe
Thanks Joe.... I don't know if my metalworking abilities are up to the challenge, but I'll never know if I don't try will I ?? Metalwork is NOT my strong point - Gimme wood any day!
If the worst comes to the worst I can always use a simple belt drive, but I'd much prefer to have a proper working pitman drive if possible. Rest assured that I'll yell if I need any help or advice! :-) I reckon it will take a couple of weeks to make the paddlewheel, so I won't be hassling you immediately!
-
The build continues....
I got the hull back yesterday - There were problems covering it in fibreglass, for some reason the resin wouldn't dry on the bottom of the hull, so the whole mess had to be scraped off and redone :-(
Fortunately it seems to have cured properly this time, so I can now make some progress...
Yesterday I fitted the main deck, and left it overnight for the glue to dry. once that's had a bit of sanding to finally get it to the right shape I'll take a photo to post here. Unfortunately family commitments mean I'll be out for most of the day, so it may be tomorow before I get that far.
-
I've managed to make a bit of progress on the Suter over the last couple of days. The deck is fitted, and the rear part of the superstructure is starting to take shape - At least now it's beginning to look like a sternwheeler!
-
It's looking good so far :)
-
Thanks Mick, when it gets it's next deck fitted it will start to look a bit more like a real boat - Hopefully! :-)
A friend is making the cranks for the sternwheel - He has machine shop facilities that I don't have, so once he's done those I can start to build the sternwheel - Once that's fitted it will really start to look the part!
-
Wish I hd some time to work on my steamer....or alternatively my fellow shipwrights had time to work on mine....ahhh the problems of being a youth!
Anyway I' ve been rather busy with school production auditions (I got the role for anyone that cares) and homework and the forming of my River Boat simulator, its all been done basically except I haven't had time to get myself another geocities site!
Anyway you're steamer looks great (I HAVE A NOT SO WATERTIGHT HULL!) so good luck with the further modelling!
-
Construction on the Suter continues..... The upper deck and the next cabin assembly are almost finished. In the photos, the upper deck is just lying on top of the model as I don't want to fix it permanently until I have the drive system sorted fully - It's much easier if I have FULL access to the hull!
I've bought all the materials I need to make the paddlewheel, and all of the window frames that are required - I have to admit I'm not looking forward to any of those areas of the build!
-
The build continues.... The major parts of the superstructure are now built. Just need to get some suitable tubing to make the stacks, then it's onto the paddlewheel and the drive system.
At least it's now starting to look like a sternwheeler! :-)
-
Looking fantastic Eddy! Yr making great progress.
Tony
-
Isn't superglue (cyano) a wonderful thing?......
I've spent the day working on the Suter. and progress has been pretty good, but if I've stuck my fingers to the superstructure once today I've done it a dozen times! :-)
Am I the only one that does this, surely not?
-
Not at all, I do it too (I use superglue to fit the windows and frames) By the way, superglue fumes can have a 'clouding' effect on clear styrene windows but I found it's pretty much OK if you clean them before applying the superglue to the frames (ever watch 'crime scene investigation'? they use superglue fumes to show up fingerprints on plastic surfaces....)
-
However good superglue is I hte the weeks after use...and the constant picking off of the dried glue.....rrrrrrrrrrrrrr superglue amazing yet incredibly annoying. However back to the lines of card modelling I find it the best because it gains an instant hold instead of waiting and waiting for PVA glue to dry or annoying 'web' craft glue which makes your models look like they've been in the shed for a looooooooong time!
-
Here she is again..... Now with some of the stairs added up to the wheelhouse, the smokestacks fitted, and the "H" towing bit on the bow.
It's amazing how the smokestacks seem to make the model suddenly come to life!
-
Hi Eddy.
Looking good now Eddy,Don't know how you find the time you must have more days in your week than me :lol:.Can't make out what you used for smokestacks is it copper tube.
Regards Eric
-
Looking very good indeed, I've noticed also that I can spend days on some area of my model with no apparent progress being made (though it always has to be done at some point to complete it...) then I do one simple thing (eg. glaze the windows) and it's completely transformed!
-
Hi Eddy.
Looking good now Eddy,Don't know how you find the time you must have more days in your week than me :lol:.Can't make out what you used for smokestacks is it copper tube.
Regards Eric
There's about four weeks work in the Suter so far, but only maybe 2-3 hours per day, so it's progressed a LOT quicker than I thought it would!
The smokestacks are copper pipe, with some aluminium tube at the bottom - Bob Booth (my MBC chairman) turned the aluminium for me, and has also done some bits for the sternwheel as you'll see at a later date..... Metalwork isn't my thing! :-)
The apparent progress will slow down now, as the next stage is the paddlwheel and drive system, which will take a while to construct.... Then it will be onto making all the window frames and doors etc. So it's all stuff that will take time....
I have to admit that this is probably the best model I've ever built, not particularly because it's the best I've made, but purely because it's the one I've enjoyed building the most - Maybe that's why it's progressed so quickly?
-
I've made a start on the paddlewheel for the Suter, but when I come to look at the drawings I have for the boat, the framework that supports the wheel and it's bearings is very unclear..... Does anyone have any good photos of a similar sternwheeler so I can get my head around how the sternwheel is actually mounted and the framework that supports it?
Any help would be very welcome!
-
lookin' Great Eddy!
-
Eddy,
My hard drive went out on me last Friday and I should have a new one tonight. Whenever I get my computer running again (hopefully in a day or two) I'll check and see what I can find in the way of photos for ya.
tbj
-
Thanks Joe, I'd really appreciate that....
-
Eddy,
I'm sorry I have been away for so long or else I could have answered some of your questions. Let me tell you how I determined the depth of my hull. I had bought a set of drawings for a sternwheeler that is berthed in Marrietta, Ohio, I'm sure Joe is familiar with her. (W.P.Snyder) I took the dimensions of this hull and proportionally applied them to the Suter. If you deepened your hull it won't cause any problems as long a you put enough weight in it to bring the freeboard down so that the paddlewheel sits deep enough in the water. American sternwheelers had very little freeboard. The W.P. Snyder is a floating museum and without any load on her she only sits about 1 foot out of the water. If you have any other questions please let me know.
George
-
Thanks George - My idea was to deepen the hull so I knew there would be plenty of bouyancy. If that means I have to add extra ballast to bring it down to the correct waterlevel that's fine - I'd rather have too much bouyancy than not enough! :-)
The model hasn't been tested in the water yet - it's too big to fit in the test tank (the bath), so I hope it will be okay.
-
Just a quick update on the Suter....
Very little has been done recently - For those that don't know me very well, I have a wife that suffers from epilepsy which isn't controlled very well by medication, and also have a severely mentally and physically handicapped daughter - Unfortunately they've both been going through a bit of a bad patch which resulted in the Suter being shelved for a little while...
Anyway, after a trip to the model engineering show at Harrogate last friday, I now have the various bits of brass and nuts and bolts that I need to progress onto making the frames that will support the paddlewheel bearings. So hopefully (fingers crossed!) I can get some more done in the next week or so..... Photos will be posted to show what I've done soon...
I didn't want anyone thinking the project had been abandoned! :-)
-
Just a quick update on the Suter....
Very little has been done recently - For those that don't know me very well, I have a wife that suffers from epilepsy which isn't controlled very well by medication, and also have a severely mentally and physically handicapped daughter - Unfortunately they've both been going through a bit of a bad patch which resulted in the Suter being shelved for a little while...
Anyway, after a trip to the model engineering show at Harrogate last friday, I now have the various bits of brass and nuts and bolts that I need to progress onto making the frames that will support the paddlewheel bearings. So hopefully (fingers crossed!) I can get some more done in the next week or so..... Photos will be posted to show what I've done soon...
I didn't want anyone thinking the project had been abandoned! :-)
I think Eddy you have a valid excuse, and my best wishes to the family and I hope that they are feeling better, or as best that can be. And I'm sure the model can wait....until it's finished it really isn't going anywhere anyway!
-
Just a quick note to let you all know that the Suter is still progressing, even if it is slow progress....
I've almost got the main frames made which support the paddlewheel - All in brass to give it the strength it needs, and I hate working with metal! Give me wood any day!
There isn't a lot to show for what seems like weeks of work - in between my wife's seizures - But I hope to have the paddlewheel mounted by the end of the week, and then I'll take a few photos to show what I've done....
There are four main areas left to do once the paddlewheel is mounted - Drive system to construct, All the windowframes and doorframes to make, painting, and final detailing such as the stanchions for the handrails etc etc. It doesn't sound a lot, but there's probably a few months work left yet.
Once the drive system is made, I hope to get a quick coat of primer on the hull and then try some on the water testing....
-
A couple of photos showing the start of the framework that supports the paddlewheel. It's actually turned out a lot stronger than I thought it would, and I can even pick up the boat using it, though I don't think I'll make a regular habit of doing that! :-)
-
That's looking wonderful :D
-
That's looking wonderful :D
Steady Mick, I could get even more big headed! :-)
Thanks mate...
-
I decided to take a break from the paddlewheel and do a bit on the window frames - Here you can see the wheelhouse windows have been done and I'm just making a start on the door frames on the deck below.
Boy it's a slow job cutting and fitting hundreds of tiny pieces of styrene strip, but hopefully it will be orth all the effort in the end.
-
Eddy,
It looks like it's coming along fine. It's strange seeing it come to life a second time but you are doing it proud. You don't see how much work there is until you start doing all the trim and fitting work, but it will make a great replica of a seldom modeled vessel. I don't know if I mentioned to you when I first sent the drawings and information but I made up my own decals for the lettering. I used a computer program to draw them up and then bought some decal paper from one of the many suppliers and printed them out. If you need any information please let me know.
George
-
Thanks for the kind comments George.... I have had to make slight changes along the way as mine is intended to be a working model, so I have to be realistic about access to drive motors and RC gear, strength to support the paddlewheel, as well as an increase in hull depth etc etc, but I do think it's starting to look pretty good, even if I do say so myself! :-)
It's thanks to people like you that I manage to get the information I need to be able to build these models. I've made many dozens of new friends on the internet, and I'm always amazed at how freely people will give plans, help, and advice if only you ask in the right way. So not only do I get to build the models I like, but hopefully I can also pass on info to others when requested, so the cycle continues...
Many thanks
-
I think this is a great community environment and that everyone thats a part of it is really helpful!
Everyone give yourselves pats on the back!