Paddleducks
Paddler Modelling => Construction => Topic started by: Hankwilliams on September 07, 2017, 02:01:21 AM
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Hi friends and neighbors,
as I wrote in heading research some weeks ago, I now began a new project: Sidewheeler "Courier" of 1817. The original made the first far steamboat connection on the continent between Berlin and Hamburg.
She was working from 1817 probably to 1821. Some informations and parts of plans about this boat are preserved.
First picture shows a model in the german museum of inland navigation in Duisburg. My model will have some alterings, because after the museum model was finished some previous unknown plan fragments and documents were found. Scale is 1 : 25, which gives a lenght of 1600 mm, a breadth of 144 mm
and a depht of 90 mm. Like the original, I will installate a functionable one cylinder side lever engine with boiler.
Thomas
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Planking of hull now is nearly finished. Next job will be to grinder and work with spatula until the surface will be fine and even.
Planking goes rather fast, as you can see, the hull is simple and box like except bow and stern.
Thomas
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Looking good Thomas :clap :clap
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Hi Thomas,
did you already calculate the possible weight of the ship? These slim hulls sometimes get some problems in weight and stability. And the windows so close to the waterline? I think, you will have to save much of weight. For example: My PD DIESSEN is 2m long and maximum 16kg ready for go. Including boiler and steam engine.
Andreas
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Hi Andreas,
the hull - except bow and stern - is block like. The block coefficient of the complete boat hull therefore will be approximately 0,78.
This gives a deplacement of (16 x 1,4 x 0,3 x 0,78) 5,28 litres. Not very much for a model with boiler and steamengine indeed, but sufficient.
The harder woodwork of the model now is nearly complete - I will post some pictures in the evening.
Next job will be to paint the hull in and outside with resin, G 4 by Voss Chemie gives excellent results. This one component resin get deep into the wood, it hardens the wood and will result a watertight and very stabile casco.
Thomas
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some pictures of progress.
Unfortunately no picture of the original boat is preserved. The paddleboxes I made different from my plan semi - round, this seems more paddlesteamer like, I think.
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:bravo :bravo :bravo :bravo :bravo Looking real good Thomas.
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Thanks Damian,
at weekend I painted the hull in- and outside with G 4 resin. The wood got now very hard and only superficial work like polishing for preparing the paint is necessary.
Show a further picture of my "Prinz Carl" in 1 : 25, first iron built steamship in Germany of 1834, which I made 19 years ago. "Prinz Carl" also worked between Berlin and Hamburg.
Thomas
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That is an interesting image of the Prinz Carl you have Thomas.....
The vessel appears to be lightly rigged for emergency fore & aft sails......were the German requirements/laws such that these new fangeled steam engined vessels must carry sail for emergency use?.....
I understand the British Board of Trade made the similar requirements up until the turn of the Century...however have never studied or researched this
Derek
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Yes Derek, these boats were lightly rigged for the long distance run between Berlin - Hamburg and retour. One must consider, that the rivers in this time were in natural condition without locks and dams.
The "Prinz Carl" in difference of the much former "Courier" wasn`t a reliable boat because of her insufficient sidelever engine. After a few trips the engine was removed and the vessel became a towed boat.
Thomas
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I paint the hull in the meantime. Next job will be the windows. The windows sprouts are difficult, probably I will use wire netting.
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You build :hammer at such speed Thomas
You mentioned ~~+ 5kg as displacement ......for interest what is the hull weight in it's current state....and do you have a water pond close by to confirm her draft?.......or so establish what weight you can add?
I ask this as my steam engine plant is ....6277gm :a102...[and the base plate for the plant is 2.5mm thick aluminium sheet with pressed sides]
So I still need the hull weight [for a 1.5m long hull] & say 750gm of boiler feed water].......maybe I am looking at ~~ 12+ kg?
Derek
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Hi Derek,
the deplacement will be no problem, engine (I will use cylinder and crankshaft of Regner 12/36) and boiler will have a weight of not more than 2200 gramm.
Now the hull weight must be below 1 kg, our old balance don`t react until now.
See the picture of my "Tachtalia" with two small oscillating engines and one boiler. This model I made with GRP Hull, lenght is 1500 mm, hull breadth ca. 190 mm. Draft is only 25 mm!
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Making of windows with wire netting and wood fillets. For my opinion the result is quite sufficient. May be, with photo etched brass the windows would be still more fine, but with far more expense.
Derek - weight of the whole model is now 1,7 kg.
Thomas
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Here the pictures
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We see you have pinched :shhh your good Ladies galvanised wire cake cooling rack for the window light metal separator frames ....they are naturally very effective
What is the glass like medium that you use for the windows?.....opaque is not the correct description, however clear and translucent and crinkled .........or a little like glass building bricks .....just like in older Century glass window frames where the actual glass pane is not totally flat or uniform in surface
The very fwd & aft pairs of window frames appear to have a little rise of hull used....will the wire mesh distort sufficiently to accommodate this?
Derek
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Ohh why are you so unkind a modeller will do anything to achieved his end goal. :(
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The windows are fixed and after some minor improvements I think, the impression is ok. The celluloid of the picture was a little wet, because I`ve taken out some dust. Now I install the rudder servo at the stern, therefore the after deck can be made. The lever-arm of the servo will be later below the pilot`s stand - so it will be not so much conspicuous.
May be the next step will be making the paddlewheels of 0,8 mm brass, fortunately the historic plan is preserved.
Thomas
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...some more progress - paddlewheels were built after the original plan and installed, also fore and after Deck. Weight of the whole model is now exactly 2,00 kg. The brass tube will be used for making the boiler. I think, boilermaking and installing will be the next job, because then I can adapt the middle part of deck with openings for funnel, steam drum and some other.
Thomas
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Boiler making and pressure tests!
in the last days I made the boiler for the "Courier". It`s a return tube one without crosstubes, lenght is 200 mm, diameter 80 mm. The flame tube`s diameter is 22 mm. Opposite of the fist boiler of my "China", 1,5 years ago, this one was steamtight from first pressure test. Making and installing boiler was necessary for the position of funnel and safety valve and the correspondending sectors in the deck.
Thomas
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first steam up today!
All ok, the boiler got a pressure of 3,o bar after 7 minutes. Weight of the boat is now 3,8 kg, I suppose it will be not more than the projected 5,3 kg. when it`s. Boiler with water has a weight of 1,6 kg. The Prussian eagle at the paddlebox - I think it could be original and historic.
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Again Thomas.....the speed of build is amazing :clap.......
The positioning of the gas tank so close to the burner will keep the gas so warm :kiss1 on your European winter days
With the weight/displacement apparently under control you could consider some fibreglass heat retardant matting under the boiler and extending back to under the actual gas burner
Derek
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:clap :bravo :clap
Love your build of ship and the engineering Thomas looking forward to seeing her complete.
Damien.
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The collapsible funnel is finished. It`s a copper tube of 22 mm diameter. At first I feared, that the tin soldered parts could smelt throught the heat of the burner, but fortunately this wasn`t.
With the tall funnel the boat get more impression in direction of finishing. Weight is now 4,3 kg. What is missing yet? Of course the engine - I will try to save weight - some deck parts, the railing - this are things, which don`t weight much, so I hope not to extend 5,3 kg!
Thomas
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Hello, beautiful build!
What is the reason for not using cross tubes in the boiler flue?
What kind of engine are you planning to use? I hope it will be a direct drive to the paddlewheels.
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The steam production also without crosstubes will be sufficient for this relative light and narrow boat. The original vessel has had a one cylinder Boulton & Watt side lever engine with a transmission to the paddle shaft through cogwheels of ca. 1 : 1,2. I plan to make also a small one cylinder side lever engine using the Regner cylinder of the 12/36 engine. It may be necessary to install a small electric starter - I did this at my "Mount Washington" with one cylinder vertical beam engine. It works rather well.
Thomas
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Some progress: Railing and rudder transmission are finished. At time I make the removable sections of deck above engine and boiler room.
Thomas
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Now the staircases are fixed after the removable parts of deck were installed. Not very much will left until the boat will be finished: The benches, the skylights above engine and boiler space and the braces of the funnel.
When the boat is finished, I will arrange the single cylinder sidelever engine with Regner 12/36 cylinder.
Thomas
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Making the prussian flag with thin alu sheet and eagle printed by picture of internet. The benches and guys of the funnel are also installed.
The boat is now nearly finished, only the skylights of boiler/engineroom left. Last bigger work will be the sidelever single cylinder engine, making with Regner and homemade parts. As i wrote before, probably an electric starter will be necessary.
Thomas
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A truly superb build Thomas :no1b
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Thanks, Damian. The boat now is as good as finished. The engine skylight will be best arranged, when the engine is installed.
Tomorrow I will begin with engine built.
Thomas
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Building the side lever engine. Cylinder and some other parts are Regner 12/36, at least 25 years old, but with little use.
Hope, it will run when it will be finished!
Thomas
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Side lever engine will be soon finished, the slide gear must be still made. I consider to turn the cylinder by 90 degrees, that the slide box will be in front of it. So it may be more easy to connect the excenter rod with the slide valve. The 36 mm stroke is a little bit too much, 25 - 30 mm would be better for the hight of engine, it`s not easy to install it in the narrow and flat hull. But until now, all of my steamers came to function - after less or more difficulties...
Thomas
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:no1b
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Only 1 cylinder? What about start and stop on the water with the model?
Andy
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I will install a small electric starter like in my "Mt. Washington" with single cylinder walking beam engine. Meanwhile I turned the cylinder of "Courier" by 90 degrees, the slide valve is now between crankshaft and cylinder. This is more original, even the connection between excenter and slide valve can be better realized.
Thomas
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Side lever engine looks like finished! Tomorrow I will do a steam test - it should run, but almost shure some adjustment will be necessary. It is possible, that one or two flywheels one the paddle shaft will be good for smoother running - for test run I use a heavy flywheel, but it`s too big for the hull.
One further altering concerns the position of the boiler, it was turned by 90 degrees. This was necessary to get enought space for the engine behind the paddle shaft like it was in the original boat. One side effect: For my impression the boat now got a better proportion, the funnel is not more so far behind the paddleboxes.
Thomas
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Indeed a work of art Thomas :bravo :bravo :bravo
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Thanks again, Damian. Today I did the first steam test with this engine - she was running in booth directions smooth for a few minutes, but then the piston slide blocked. The old brass piston slide seems to have too less ? when the parts became hot. Tomorrow I will turn the engine for longer time with electric drill, while it will be oiled.
If the failure can`t be solved I must order a new teflon slide valve for the 12/36, since a few years Regner uses Teflon Slide valves and pistons.
Thomas
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As always this Regner 12/36 must be a beautiful engine Thomas...do you think that she will be capable of say 120 RPM and still be stable in a single cylinder confrigaution?.... Derek
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Hi Derek,
today I ordered at Regner 2 Teflon slide valve pistons and 2 smaller flywheels of 50 mm diameter for installing on the paddleshaft. Together with the brass paddlewheels (99 mm diameter) this should be sufficient to get a stable run of 80 - 90 RPM. Today I will do other test runs with the old brass slide. The tolerance between piston and slide cylinder should be better now because the engine was turned for 2 hours with an electric drilling.
The walking beam engine of "MT. Washington" with same cylinder and the original flywheel of 80 mm is running well with gear reduction of 1 : 2 to the big paddlewheels.
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new testruns this afternoon. Engine runs very well forward, no as good back, I must adjust the slide valve more precise- but today it didn`t block. Engine was runninng for 1,5 hours. It seems, now things came together!
Thomas
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Engine is running now in well manner in both directions!
Minimum speed in load is ca. 60 RPM. There will be a gear reduction of 4 : 5 to the paddleshaft with cogwheels (similar to the original boat). The two small flywheels I got today and installed them on the paddleshaft. I hope, together with the paddlewheels there will be sufficient centrifugal force. If not, further possibility would be to weight the paddles.
Thomas
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Experiences for an old steam enthusiast: Engine is running very well outside of hull with an heavy flywheel, but much less good inside the model.
The turning cogwheels are rather loud, but the main point seems the lack of centrifugal force throught the paddlewheels. Obviously the paddlewheels together with the small flywheels gave not very much centrifugal force. May be, thats also a matter, that the centrifugal force is not on the crankshaft of the engine, but on the paddleshaft - this could be an explanation of the noisy cogwheels.
Tomorrow I will do a steam test with the boat in water.
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Thomas, fist of all, my sincere congratulation for this beautyful boat! I wonder how you can build all these fantastic steam driven ships in such quick succession...
So please don't understand my following remarks as criticism, but as attempt to help, from a machine dynamics point of view:
Experiences for an old steam enthusiast: Engine is running very well outside of hull with an heavy flywheel, but much less good inside the model.
The turning cogwheels are rather loud, but the main point seems the lack of centrifugal force throught the paddlewheels. Obviously the paddlewheels together with the small flywheels gave not very much centrifugal force. May be, thats also a matter, that the centrifugal force is not on the crankshaft of the engine, but on the paddleshaft - this could be an explanation of the noisy cogwheels.
Just a remark: You're not talking about centrifugal force (which acts radially and thus has no influence on the rotation at all), but about moment of inertia. The inertia of a flywheel scales linear with its mass and with the square of its diameter. But the diameter of a hidden flywheel is limited. So that is no option.
But: The kinetic energy stored in a flywheel goes by the square of its speed. So a small flywheel on an slow rotating shaft (such as the paddle shaft) does not have much effect indeed.
But since you have this reduction stage anyway:
Maybe you could add another, hidden gear stage increasing the speed of the flywheel?
Just to give an example: If you manage to add a speed increaser stage with the ratio of 1:5 between paddle shaft and flywheel, the flywheel would have as much effect as 25 flywheels of the same inertia mounted on the paddle shaft!
Moritz
PS: You presumably know these old toy cars with a so called friction motor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_motor). That's the same idea, to simulate a high inertia by a fast spinning flywheel with a high gear ratio.
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Hi Moritz.
very good idea! I will consider, whether its possible to install a flywheel with increased speed - thank you!
Thomas
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Today I made a first steam up in water. As you see, engine function is quite well, but some improvements are possible. Before steamtest the paddles are burdened with 2,5 mm thick I brass profile, the moment of inertia is now better. The engine needs a pressure in water of at least 1,8 bar for moving ca. 60 - 70 rpm.
Boat lies rather stabile in water just 2 - 3 mm above waterline, deplacement is exact 5,45 kg!
Thomas
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:no1b :bravo :bravo :bravo
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Another steam test today: Engine is now running quite sufficient, it seems more gear reduction (now 5 : 4) would be better, steam consumption is high.
Because the boat is long and narrow there is a tendence for list when the wheels are turning. I will avoide this with floats in front of the paddles, like some of my other boats.
But I must conclude: This boat isn`t as simple as it looks like, some improvements are necessary.
For impressions some further pictures.
Happy christmas to all!
Thomas from Münsingen
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Steam test with R/C was quite sufficient, the engine needs a lot of steam, after the test I changed the slide piston valve to a new teflon one.
On the picture you see the tiny electric starter, a 1 : 50 gear reduction mini electric motor. The power is suffice to turn the engine over the dead center, if there is not too much water in the cylinder, it starts. Tomorrow I will see, whether there is an improvement with the new teflon slide valve.
Thomas
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The new teflon slide valve wasn`t usable, because it was a little bit different from the old brass one.
With the lathe a made two slots in the old brass pistons for applying viton rings. The engine runs now better, there a less steam losses.
Compared with a 2 cylinder Regner or Graham engine my engine is much more complicated to drive but I`m still training...
I hope, in the next weeks I will send pictures of the boat navigated on a pond in the nature!
Thomas
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Looking forward to seeing it on the water Thomas. :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
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Hi all fiends and neighbors,
swow was thawing from the meadows of Swabian Alb und leave behind spacious ponds of very low depth. Ideal to test a steambout with single cylinder engine. If there is an engine failure, one can reach the precious model without any obstacles. I hope the pictures will speak for themself.
Engine was running well, the only problem was that hot condensed water from the exhaust steam pipe was dripping on the gastank. But this can solved easily. With the electric starter it`s possible to start the engine with some experience.
Now I hope, you willenjoy the pictures.
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Just love :kiss1 the steam from the exhaust pipe separate from the boiler exhaust Thomas :terrific
Is this a loose M3 Nut on the Crosshead?...................Derek
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Outstanding Thomas I love it. :kiss1 :kiss1 :kiss1
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What a fabulous build...she looks impressive on the puddle!
Small query...why does the port forward bench only have 2 seats whereas the rest have 3?
I'm really looking forward to your next project!!
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Hi,
Spanbucket: This only looks like because the removable part above the engine is lying partly at the bench.
Derek: This is good observed, I must fix the M 2 nut with screw securing (correct word? I don`t know...)
May be, today in sunshine I will do a further trip!
Thomas
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Hi and thanks for that....when I looked again... I see what you say!
Anyway...first class boat!
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Just an further picture, made it yesterday
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:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap Outstanding Thomas.
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Your ship looks beautiful on the water. And very nice job converting the Regner engine!
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As long we are busy in arranging late mothers estate, only smaller steam and model activitis are possible.
Now I decide an engine change of the "Courier" steamboat. The original single cylinder side lever engine wasn`t reliable, special starting often was problematic. The engine is now a functionable part of my big coal fired steamplant. A new small Microcosm oscillating engine will take part in the boat. The aggregat is made principal for screw driving. For driving the paddle shaft it must be altered and turned. The shaft will be close to the paddleshaft and drive with 2 : 1 gear reduction via cogwheels. First job now is to made a stabil frame of the engine.
Thomas
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Frame of engine is finished and engine was installed. I now will made a steam connection from boiler to gastank with cock to heat the tank. A steam up will be the next.
Thomas
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This is a very inventive way of inverting the Microcosm oscillator engine :bravo........your work Thomas, never ceases to amaze me :crash
On a seperate question,
1. is Winfried Niggle back in business selling directly to consumers?....I was looking at his [old] WEB page, and by accident, I sent received an e-mail to him.........to my suprise I got an e-mail back signed by a Jennifer, saying they were never out of business?
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"From: Winfried Niggel <w.niggel@web.de>
Sent: Wednesday, 4 January 2023 7:18 PM
To: dlwarner@bigpond.net.au
Subject: Modellbau-Niggel
Hallo Derek,
I was never away.
I'm already continuing with steam model making.
Best regards
Jennifer
-------------------------------
I had an unpleasant experience with Beng Steam ....supplying a supposed Niggle product [tube to tube o-ring sealed 4 bolt flange sets], however the goods were not of Winfried dimension or quality or manufacture.....
2. is that, an aluminium tube you have installed in your Niggle quartz tubed lubricator? in the earlier plant setup with the single cylinder vertical Regner engine
Watching on as usual [with my new right side full hip replacement]
Derek
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Hi Derek,
Niggle is still in business. I ordered a water gauge from him about two years ago. I remember, the part was not in stock and it takes a long time for delivery. Until now, I don`t ordered anything from Bengs. Best trader of my experience is Regner. Regner has a wide range of steam products, isn`t too expensive and the delivery is rather fast. But I have only experience with inland delivery.
It`s an aluminium tube at the lubricator, the glass was broken and there was no spare - it`s funktioning.
Today I did a test run with the new installed Microcosm, which was good - nearly no steam and water leaks, for a oscillating engine this is remarkable.
Tomorrow will be a test run in the watertank, the nautic stability wasn`t very good in the past, we will see, whether it`s better now. Deplacement of the boat in running order is 5,6 kg.
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Test run of "Courier" today.
The presentation wasn`t excellent, but halfway satisfactory. The nautic stability is a little better with the lighter engine. Gear reduction startet with 1,7 : 1, but engine was straining, then with 2,5 : 1 and endet with 2,5 : 1. The torque of the engine is not very strong, it would be better a reduction of 3 - 3 : 1. Steam escape from the mirror plains was rather strong when the engine works with load.
The "Courier" ever was my problematic boat, but I hoped to make some presentation on model shows with steam. It seems, this boat would be better electric driven.
Thomas
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Some pictures.
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Hullo Thomas......good progress
In your steam test, we see a valve, however there also appears a tube connection attached to the body of the valve
Is it a gas line to the boiler burner?
Is this a globe valve for isolation?, or a needle valve for gas/? regulation etc?
...and secondly will that synthetic tube over the burner body be OK temperature wise
Derek
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Hi Derek,
this valve is the steam heating for the gastank. But this wasn`t necessery while the test - the steam escape from the mirrors of the cylinders was strong enough and one of the reasons for the not very satisfactory presentation. I ordered now two cogwheels for 4 : 1 reduction. Perhaps it is possible to increase the pressure of the cylinders to the mirrors to avoide this strong steam escape. I`m a little disappointed of this Microcosm oscillating engine, the slide valve one was much better.
Thomas
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The oscillating engine wasn`t a piece of good engineering. In opposition of the slide valve engines from Microcosm, this engine failed with leakings and low power. There must bei some failures happened with completition of the engine in chinese factory.
But I got an defect Rocket Loco for a low price. The boiler was complete unusable, but this doesn`t matter - I only needed the cylinders with piston, piston rods and slide valves to make an new slide valve engine fot the "COURIER" boat.
I new piston valve geared engine was arised - with an old Wilesco reverse valve and nearly no leaks of steam. Some pictures will illustrate the process. Not before now the "COURIER" steamboat is real functionable.
At the top of the paddleboxes I made 10 mm boreholes to avoide the tendence of list. Now the boat got much more nautical stability - it`s possible to present her driving at the big steam meeting in Friedrichshafen, Lake Constance in the beginning of november.
What`s the quintessence: In some cases it takes much more time than one expect to reach the goal - a really functionable model steamboat!
Thomas
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Great work,
I did like the use of the rocket cylinders on the paddleboat engine. Nice to see the boat on the water.
Jon