Paddleducks
Paddler Modelling => Construction => Topic started by: ir3 on February 04, 2011, 08:45:33 AM
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Hi PD'rs,
Just started the Saito Delta Queen build. :) A few problems fitting the frames into the fiberglass hull. With resin buildup and irregular thicknesses the frames needed a bit of shaping but not too much. If anyone is going to build this boat, dry fit all the rear frame and paddle wheel drive boxes in the hull. Once everything fits nicely, tack the pieces and do the final gluing out of the hull. I did not do that and had a bit of a time getting the pieces to fit. :'( I uploaded a few pictures and will keep the thread up to date as I continue the build.
I have a question about paddle wheels that I will post in the Paddle Wheel forum.
Iran
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Thanks Iran, the Delta Queen has been a kit I've admired for a long time, and one that I'd like to get myself. So I'm looking forward to seeing your build progress....
Regards
Eddy
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Hi PD'rs,
I moved this question Paddle Wheel forum.
A question about paddle wheels for this model. As was commented earlier, the paddle wheel for the DQ does not look too good. If a scale paddle wheel was to be constructed for this model would it drive the boat as well as the original Saito Paddle Wheel. It seems that there is a trade off between true scale and the ability to propel the boat. Any comments would be appreciated. I would like to build a scale paddle wheel since it will look better but it has to perform.
Thanks,
Iran
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Hi PD'rs,
The dimensions of the paddle wheel are: diameter = 120mm and the width = 105mm, bucket tip to bucket tip. The pics show a simple buildup using 4 buckets and two spoke assemblies. There are a total of 8 buckets and 4 spoke assemblies.
Thanks,
Iran
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Iran, I built a model of an American sternwheel towboat/snagboat called Suter - A build log and photos are on here somewhere.... That used a wheel with 16 floats, and it performed superbly. So I don't think you will have any trouble with a scale paddlewheel!
Regards
Eddy
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Hi PD'rs,
A little more progress. The forward deck has been temporarily installed. :hammer. I used a technique that Saito suggested. There was no way that I was going to get the margin planks bent ... :thinking... so I fashioned two margin planks from scrap stock. Drew a pattern and laid the planks off the bow a bit over sized. A bit of shaping and fitting and the results are quite satisfactory. :)
Thanks for the update on the scale paddle wheel. I will do some bashing on the parts that Saito supplies and try to get a more scale looking wheel.
Iran
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Hi PD'rs
It looks like all of that planking of the fore deck is all for nought. :ranting It appears from all of the pictures that I have seen of the current Delta Queen, the foredeck is iron plate. It could very well have been planked in its earlier years but not now. :c002 Why Saito had the fore deck planked, I do not know. So unless anyone has some updated information on this issue, I am going to a fore deck that appears to be iron and not planked. :'(
Iran
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Hi PD's..... :nono...before you rush in here ir3....do a little reasearch :thinking ....
1. an older year period for the DQ may well have had a wooden planked fore deck
2. wooden decking in it's natural beauty can be far more impressive than plated steel
Take your time & keep the :kewlpics as postings ....Derek :beer
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As originally built the Delta Queen, and King, had a deck house on the foredeck. The deck house was removed after she was taken East, the upper decks where extended then. The King retained the deck house. Flicked through the book 'King and Queen of the river' and didn't see anything about the deck material many need to sit down and read it a bit closer to see if it says anything.
Had a bit of a fiddle with the DQ paddle wheel drawing and as stated on the other thread with 28 floats I think they'd be too close together. Looks a bit more open with every second one removed. What size shaft do Saito intend you to use with their wheel?
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I forgot that I'd posted a short video of my model of the Suter when I first tested it on the water - It clearly shows that a 16 float paddlewheel works fine on a sternwheeler...
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=161
Regards
Eddy
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Hi PD'rs
The deck is in place. :) The next question regards painting. The instructions recommend that the deck color be prepared and various doors placed before cabin structure goes on. Staining could be a problem since I used yellow glue to assemble the deck. Stain will not cover any residual glue that has permeated the wood. Most of the color pictures show the deck either red or a combination of red and black.
In response to Barry, the shaft is 4mm. Saito supplies 4 vary nice brass hubs to fix the paddle wheel. I am considering adding 6 floats and make each float a little smaller. ... :thinking ... I think that will give the paddle wheel a more pleasing look.
Pics show the deck in place and the wheel hub fittings.
Iran
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I liked the video. She seems powerful on the water with not much spray upwards.
Very good work so far. Regarding the deck then if it's originally planking, you could try imitation sheet planking to cover the glue marks.
ken
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Hi PD'rs,
Some distractions have kept me away from the build but now ready to get back. I am struggling with paint or stain for the fore deck. I assume the deck was wood planked until the 1991 refit to widen the hull. Looking at the resources I have at hand, the Hartman plans which are based on photos taken in the early 70's do not show that the fore deck is planked. The only reference to a planked deck in the early 80's is the Saito plan. I have no idea what they based their plan on. The Hartman plan also show the maintanence deck houses on the fore deck. That could be consistent with a planked deck, but can't be sure.
The only photos that I can find of a build from the Hartman kit show the fore deck in red and black. There is another reference from Popular Mechanics that shows the deck red up the gang plank mast and black going aft.
I really do not want to dwell on this issue much longer as I need to get cracking. Are the original Hartman slides available in some archive. On his plans he always references slides that pertain to the area on the plan.
Any help and/or suggestions on the deck finish would be welcomed.
Thanks,
Iran
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Perhaps an e mail to Don@Loyalhannadockyard.com He'd be able to tell you about the photos referenced on the Hartman plans.
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Hi PD'rs
A bit more work on the DQ. All of the structure in the hull is complete as well as the first cabin level which is fixed. :) The instructions indicate the next step is the cabin but I am going to finish the hull with the steam engine and RC stuff all working before building the cabin. Almost like two kits. The only glitch so far is the spacing between the fore deck and the deck above it. Mine came out to 32mm spacing but the kit only supplied 30mm support posts. A trip the the local hobby shop for some 3mm tubing or dowel is in order. :(
I checked with Don at Loyalhanna and unfortunately the Hartman Estate threw out all of his slides and pictures before Don could access the inventory. :a102 I guess they felt that something this historical in nature was not worth saving.
Until next time,
Iran
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I assume that the 4 tubes at the rear of the hull are for the rudders?
It's coming along very nicely Iran....
Regards
Eddy
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"I checked with Don at Loyalhanna and unfortunately the Hartman Estate threw out all of his slides and pictures before Don could access the inventory. I guess they felt that something this historical in nature was not worth saving."
That is quite often the case, they probably figure it was just more junk related to his toy boats. We should all make sure that our treasures are going to be take care of after we go. Personally I plan to take mine with me because Heaven would be H*** without my model boats and steam engines, I hope it has CNC too.
Regards,
Gerald.
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Hi PD'rs,
Installed the rudder tillers. A major problem with one of the tiller arms on the forward rudders. One of the grub screws was 180 out instead of 90 degrees requiring a special allen wrench to get the grub screw tightened. Very little space to work in. The crossbar had a spacing problem causing one of the tillers to be out of parallel with the other three. Should not be a problem. The rear rudder cross bar also did not match the spacing of the rudders but once again should not be a problem. Advice to anyone tackling this kit, deal with the rudders before installing the rear piece of the second deck structure. You will have no problem with the grub screws.
Until next time,
Iran
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Hi PD'rs,
A bit more work on the DQ. The paddle wheel and associated hardware are dry fitted. Will make permanent after a bit of paint touch up. Next in line is the preparation of the engine bed and getting the engine matched up with the paddle wheel. The brass looks nice and am thinking of just clear coating. Also, note the oilers on the shaft bearing blocks.
Until next time,
Iran
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Yes the brass finish with a polyurathane coating would look :no1b ....ir3
I also see the paddle wheel outboard bearing blocks appear identical to the five mounted in your Y2DR engine crankshaft
Have you thought about a protection plugs for these as we would not :c002 like water in them....... :whistle .....Derek
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Hi PD'rs,
A bit more progress. Spent most of the day fitting the engine and getting the paddle wheel to rotate smoothly. I feel a bit of pressure at two points turning the wheel. I assume that I am feeling the compression stroke of the engine. The driver ( I believe that this is a Pitman Arm) is cast bronze and this will be painted white. Next step is to work in the next bay forward and install the radio, servos and battery for the radio. I am keeping all brass unpainted where ever possible.
Until next time,
Iran
:oops Just noticed a bucket out of alignment.
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Well PD's..... :shhh...& never be let it said that I was biased toward the Saito Y2DR...... ...but you may get a few complaints from your scale crew
The engine room temperatrure will be greater than the current Y2011 regulations..... :a102
However ir3 :whistle ...there could be a simple resolution in you build & industrial relations with the crew
1.0 ......open the engine room sides to let the HOT air out
1.1.......build a series of glass lined opening A frames above the engine room just like in real ships
2.0.......this would keep the :ranting engine crew a little cooler & happy & also display the :no1b engine to viewers......
:beer ....just a thought........Derek
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Iran, do the instructions say anything about positioning of the pitman arms? I see there is one on each side and I would have thought that they should be fitted either in parallel or at 180 degrees to each other. Perhaps the fact that they are not in synch is the reason for the tight spots? Regards, Ian.
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Hullo Iran....... :whistle...I understand this question is to ir3 .....but also offer :hammer a comment with my Y2DR
The Saito Y2DR crank shaft has two accurately machined flats @ 90 degrees.....which of course line up with the cylinder timing....which is also the setup positioning for the long pitman arms...
Looking at the DQ setup...suggests that the Saito Y2DR was designed around the build...& the engine by itself was just an after thought
ir3....with the ports open to atmosphere.... :shhh ... you are not experiencing 'the compression stroke'...but possibly mechanical stiction as the components reach their extremity of stroke & literally reverse direction :goodnews ...as this is normal.......
Your .jpg DQ24 also confirms the 90 degree pitman arm setting.......Derek
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Hi PD'rs,
Thanks for all the input on the Pitman arm alignment. The problem may lie with my Y2DR. The crank arms do not appear to be exactly 90 degrees apart. Something for me to look into when I fine tune.
Dry fitted the servo tray and set up both the rudder pushrod and forward/reverse push rod. I need to get the aft rudders installed and aligned. Next, install the RX and battery, and do some testing.
As far as keeping things cool within the hull, I was considering a small exhaust fan. Power for the fan will not be a problem since I plan on running some audio for the Calliope, the steam whistle and possibly some lights if I run late in the afternoon or early evening. A separate battery will be used for those functions.
I was thinking of using my broadband radio for this model. But it appears that no manufacturer except Robbe and Graupner (I think it is the same or similar radio) provide for controlling other function. If anyone has any suggestions on products that will enhance radios like Futaba, etc it would be appreciated.
Thanks once again,
Iran
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A couple of websites with some photos and info on the King and Queen.
http://maritimematters.com/2010/06/the-delta-king-california%e2%80%99s-monarch-by-shawn-j-dake/
http://maritimematters.com/2010/09/log-of-the-steamboat-delta-queen-along-southern-rivers-part-one/
http://maritimematters.com/2010/09/log-of-the-steamboat-delta-queen-along-southern-rivers-part-two-2/
Scroll down the page a bit to see a very small photo etched model of the Delta King.
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=33372&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=210
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Iran, do the instructions say anything about positioning of the pitman arms?...I would have thought that they should be fitted...at 180 degrees to each other...
I have an 'entry level' wilesco engine (same as is used in the graupner glasgow) that also has the cranks at 90 degrees and I think that will be to ensure that one of the cylinders is at mid stroke when the other is at the end of its direction of travel. that way, if you reverse or stop the engine you can be sure it will re-start, and in the direction you want.
If you were to leave the engine cranks at 90 but set the pitman arms at 180 (or 0 degrees) you'd just get the same problem there, I suspect...
...besides, they're at 90 on full size boats aren't they? since they take the place of the crankshaft?
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Hi PD'rs,
I checked both the flats on the engine output shaft and the paddle wheel axle. The flats are at 90 degrees. :goodnews The four crank arms that are in the Saito kit do not have the grub screws at exactly 90 degrees to the crank arm. :ranting This results in the cranks not being 90 degrees apart but somewhat more than 90. I assume that this would be OK if the error was consistent at both the paddle wheel axle and the engine output shafts but the error is not consistent. This is probably why the wheel has stiction at one part of the rotation.
It appears that the cranks have been press fit to the collars housing the grub screws and perhaps brazed or silver soldered. There is no way I am going to make this right. It appears that I may have to find someone to machine a new set of cranks or contact Saito to see if they will fix the problem.
Any suggestions????
Iran
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sorry......I think I was getting lost between the engine cranks & the pitman arm cranks......but I can see the M3 HPGS in these cranks......
oh dear...... :ranting ...could I suggest
1. do not touch or alter the position or construction of the webs to the crank
2. position the Y2DR on a universal milling table & fasten down lightly
3. align the pair of cranks "21 & 22" so the outer faces are truely vertical with the aid of an engineers square
4. present a dial indicator needle to the top surface of the other pair of cranks as per my second sketch
5. move the table inwards for the 28 mm crank length & gauge any height/angularity recorded by the dial indicator
6. take digital images of the engineers square in position & the angularity recorded
7. repeat this procedure for the other pair of cranks
8. e-mail your engine supplier [Helsinki?] with your issue & copies of the digital images
9. I see no evidence of silver solder in my crank/web build up in Y2DR, however suspect the crank assembly would have been a series of transitional slip fit's & assembled with Loctite super stud lock.......& the backed up with the M2 hollow pointed grub screws
As you well know, the manufacturer Saito are most illusive in communications directly....good luck.....Derek
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I could be getting confused myself :-X
as I understood it, the engine is ok and if connected to a couple of side wheels would work just fine but the cranks for the pitman arms (two on the engine crankshaft and two on the paddlewheel shaft are not accurate...
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...just wondering (assuming I'm not completely missing the problem that is...) are all four identical or are there two 'pairs' as it were, with the screw holes on opposite sides since the port cranks will be on the other way round compared to the starbd ones...
...could you re-drill and thread new holes on the other side of them - or at the opposite side to the bit the pitman arm goes on...
...just a thought
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Hi PD'rs,
Unfortunately I do not have the necessary measuring items that Derek mentioned above. :darn I will just have to go with what I have hoping that Saito got it right or very close to right when they did the run in. I assume the exercise is to show that the two cranks are exactly 90 degrees apart.
Yes, the picture of the cranks and the location of the grub screws is correct. The problem is that the offsets are not exactly equal. If they were, there would be no problem since any error at the paddle wheel would be cancelled by exactly the same error at the engine output shafts. :thinking I need to spend some more time on this problem. The drag is very slight and I just might get away with it. There is a YouTube video of someone running the DQ and it appears that there are Pitman Arm alignment problems with that one also.
I spent a good part of the day today rearranging the servo for the rudders. The old position led to a very sloppy push rod. In the new configuration, no slop at all. Another hitch is in the two aft rudders. The two shaft housings must be placed in such a way as to make sure the rudders clear the Paddle Wheel. This results in the aft rudder bell cranks being too low. :41A long screw and some nuts fixed this problem. The aft rudders are controlled with spring loaded steel wire to do the actuating. A real headache to setup but now close enough to be functional. Saito could have done a better job on this.
Now it is off to the forward part of the hull and installation of the boiler, burner, etc. I am sure I will have some questions.
Until next time,
Iran
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ir3......if the problem is as Mick noted in his posting Today at 05:39:33 AM....as he suggested you could acurately drill & tap new M3 tappings on the oposite side of the cranks...... :hammer
Your local hobby shop will have a DUBRO M3 tap & tapping drill set No372 for less that $10US
You would need a method of supporting the cranks for marking out & then drilling truly vertical in a drill press....
..or thinking more about what was mentioned.. :shhh ..could you have two differing sets of pairs? ....Derek :goodluck
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Hi PD'rs,
Amazing what brainstorming can accomplish. :gathering
1. Oddly enough, the cranks are slightly different but in pairs. Matching up the pairs starts to free up the Paddle Wheel rotation.
2. If I could read, :-[ I would have seen that the Pitman arms must be parallel! By adjusting the cranks on the shafts I was able to get them parallel. It's getting better.
3. The bolts that fasten the Pitman arms to the cranks were too tight. Another source of drag.
4. Finally, there was a bit of drag caused by contact of the Pitman arm bolts with surrounding structure.
5. It is now turning as loosely as I can get it for now and it will probably be ok. :)
6. Moral. It takes a lot of patience and adjusting to get it right.
On to installing the boiler and associated gear.
Iran
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Hi PD'rs,
Just started on the boiler room. A few questions.
1. From the picture, connecting the high pressure line has a problem. I would like to bend the high pressure line from the boiler to mate with the line supplied by Saito in the kit. Why Saito did not solve this problem is a mystery. Can I bend the high pressure line from the boiler to mate with the Saito supplied line. The copper line from the boiler does not appear to be very malleable and could break. There is a picture of this line being oriented correctly in another Delta Queen installation.
2. In the assembly drawing there appears to be an oil reservoir for the smoke generator, upper right. I scanned the internet for anything like this either under the Saito name or others and have found nothing. Any suggestions?
3. It seems that installing a pressure gauge would be a good thing to do. There is a Saito part that fits this boiler.
4. In the Saito burner configuration is there any way to install a failsafe if the boiler runs out of water. I realize that I will have to do some experimenting to find out just how much time I can spend on the water but would like a backup just in case.
Thanks once again,
Iran
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:shhh.......but ir3 something is amis........seems I have said this before :sorry
In 032jpg...it appears that steam from the steam dome exits the boiler by a 90 degree steam regulator...but the copper tube dips back down into the boiler [simple for of higher temperature steam dryer/heater] & back out of the chimney stack
Can this small tube set be removed?...can it be re-oriented? I cannot see Saito bending the tube at the wrong connection angle :a102
In 031.jpg....I see the small container [extreme right boiler end]...and also see the representation of the supply line back to the boiler top connection between the relief valve & the regulator for the pressure gauge - the installation of a pressure gauge is a necessity & not a luxury
In 032.jpg I also see a supply line from the boiler to the small container ......what do the instructions say about this component?....was it supplied?
In 031.jpg I do not understand the signifience of the four black [synthetic] tubes from the boiler to the chimney stack...does the boiler have two steam relief valves?
Do you have the ability to silver solder copper or brass capillary tubing? 5/32" or 1/8" OD
I would not attempt to use DUBRO tube benders on any of my Y2DR tubing [4.0 mm OD brass] ........
The French [ANTON] produce gas regulators & fail safe valving ...but not suitable for installation with alternate liquid fuel systems........Derek
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Hi PD'rs ... Derek ...
I will try to answer as best I can. The line from the steam dome into the stack is for the Smoke Generator. There is a 3 turn coil of brass/copper that is used to heat the smoke oil. There is a heat exchanger in the end cap that the smoke oil passes through. The smoke oil tank is an accessory and not included in the kit or boiler/steam engine package.
The item of interest in the upper right corner of the drawing and the line coming out of the end of the boiler is the low pressure line coming from the smoke oil tank. The high pressure line for the smoke oil tank comes from a high pressure source on the top of the boiler.
The black synthetic hose lines going to the stack are from each of the vents on the boiler, burner fuel tank and a steam whistle port. The large black tubing is from the drain tank. The boiler has a steam release valve and there is an overflow valve in the filler cap.
The bend in question of the tube coming back out of the stack opening is unusual. Not only is it not oriented properly for the installation in the DQ but the bend is so tight that there is some constriction. Not too good for maximum steam flow.
I can do some silver soldering if I must fabricate some brass tubing.
I am including pictures of the end cap of the boiler for clarification (ignore the eraser halves!!!).
Pressure gauge is on order.
Thanks,
Iran
P.S.
Just as an add on, upon reading the instructions this boiler is not specifically intended for the DQ. The instructions talk about the Hercules, Kamome, Polar Star, and Chiba Star but not the DQ. So, a modification will be necessary.
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:whistle ....just thinking ir3...... decision time?.....
1. one posible solution in getting steam from the boiler to the Y2DR is to cut & shut the steam discharge line
2. if you accept that this must be done I suggest you consider cutting away the bent SAITO tube sections so all of the joints will not require bending....or would require bending in one plane only
3. select two layers of K&S brass or copper telescopic tubing to match up with your SAITO 4.0 mm pressure tubing
4. make slip fit spool pieces + add one 90 degree 5/16 tube to tube elbow will match your 4.0 mm SAITO tubing
5. silver solder the joints & spool pieces etc
6. from the SAITO setup it appears that you must rely on the boiler 90 degree steam regulator to isolate steam from the engine.....so the addition of a steam isolation valve would also be good insurance......Derek :beer
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Hi PD'rs ... Derek...
Parts are on order. While waiting, back to completion of the lower cabin, windows, doors, paint. :hammer
Until next time,
Iran
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:whistle just while you are ..... :thinking there ir3........
The nice people from DUBRO also manufacture 1/8" & 5/32" OD tube benders & they are not expensive compared to the numerous crushed or crinkled bends that are created ..... :crash .....as scrap :ranting
Copper tubing is clearly understood as heated to light cherry red & allowing to air cool to aneal prior to bending
Brass tubing is less tolerant :oops ....however I use the same procedure prior to bending
Clearly.....without these benders I could not have produced my 1/8"& 5/32" diameter tube spools to the steam gauge and condenser tube bends etc......Derek :coffee
:c002 ....those Phillips head screws in the condensor base are only temporary :picknose ...awaiting M3 hex head S/S screws......
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Hi PD'rs
Thanks for the heads up on the tubing benders. I would use them to make a 180 degree loop to solve the problem of fitting the high pressure line but it seems that the straighter the lines are the better. BTW, excellent work on the boiler and the pressure gauge lines.
Until next time,
Iran
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Hi PD'rs,
Need a little help. I just received my order of fittings from Modellbau Niggle. I did not realize that the fittings I ordered had fine threads but the Saito fittings have course threads and a slightly larger nut.
I will not be able to cut off the nut at the bend in question. The bend is so bad that the pipe is heavily dimpled. I will not have a good surface to braze to and I am afraid of leaks. I think the bend must stay in. I believe that Modellbau Niggle has appropriate adapters to go from the Saito threads to the fine threads on the fittings I ordered.
I can use one of the adapters that he indicates couples a steam line to water a line. One example, but not the one I will use is part number M4 / Ø 3 mm 110 340. A fitting of this type would allow me to couple the Saito coarse thread fitting with the fine threads on the shut off valve that I am going to install.
I will have to make up a 180 degree piece of tubing to change the direction of the high pressure line and route it back to the line that was supplied in the kit. This should be OK, I just don't like the idea of a bend in the high pressure line and the 180 degree turnabout.
Saito does not spec the threads on the boiler and steam engine fittings. If someone can supply me with that spec I can order some more parts.
Thanks,
Iran
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Hi PD's........... :squareone ir3........
a. the Saito compression fittings appear to seal on a circular knife edge back into the mating component seat
b. I am sure Winfried could manufacture a screwed transition piece...but you would have to accurately nominate the thread diameter + thread angle + TPI
c. I have just checked the male thread form on the steam entry union nut on my Y2DR....it measures 6.86 mm diameter x 0.5 mm pitch..........
d. I would not be suprised if Saito produced certain non standard metric thread forms...also remember the Saito Drawings are 14.01.1961 or yes 50 years old.... :shhh
e. it is clearly known that neither Japanese metric nor German metric nor French metric nor British BA thread form [which is metric] are interchangeable with any or each other.........it is only when you get to ISO metric thread form where interchangeability exists
f. interestingly the M3 brass hex head bolts that secure the Y2DR to it's base measure 2.96/2.93 shank to thread ...& this would be a common undersized dimension for M3.........
I am going to check 6.86 metric thread form
I still think that cut + shut + silver solder is the preferred option.....& aplaud your choice of :no1b fittings supplier.......Derek
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Hi PD'rs,
Shutoff valve is installed. :c017 Derek. :beer Yes, cut + shut + silver solder was the best and simplest way to go. The connection coming out of the stack to the valve was a bit difficult as this piece of tubing was not perfectly round but the silver soldering filled in nicely. I can see where Steam Fitting can become an addiction.
Back to construction :hammer until the pressure gauge arrives.
Until next time,
Iran
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Oh dear PD's........ :ranting...please correct me if I am incorrect here ir3
1.0 silver soldering & resulant is a goldish colour @ the joint
2.0 soft soldering [40/60] resulant is a silver/bluish colour @ the joint
2.1 soft soldering [40/60] is only OK for say 115 degrees C..........our model boilers produce 150 degrees C
2.3 am I correct in seeing the silver/bluish colour @ the joints between the isolation valve & tubing?
2.4 .........if so we all need to talk...... :gathering .....Derek
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Hi PD'rs,
I hope this is not panic time. :41 The product I am using is Stay-Brite Silver Solder. It has a melting point of 430 degrees F (221 degrees C). It finishes with a silver color. With operating temps of 150 degrees C, I assume that the connections will be safe. This product required a butane torch to get the right melting temperature. My hottest soldering iron did not come close to melting the silver solder. A Google search for silver soldering shows some products that have melting points of 1100 degrees F but this is mostly for gun smithing. What do the experienced steam fitters suggest. What I have done so far can certainly be undone.
Thanks,
Iran
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:sorry ir3.......we don't have this Stay-Brite Silver Solder in OZ hence never seen a SILVER coloured silver solder :shhh
@ 221 degrees C melting point it should retain it's operational strength to >> 80% of MP or be OK @ 176 degrees C :06 ......Derek
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I have used Stay Brite Silver Bearing Solder for model construction and some repairs on brass boilers. It is stronger than normal soft solder but is not a true silver solder as generally understood, its main composition is tin with only 3 to 6% silver. I would use it on steam lines, but not for the main construction of a boiler.
http://watchmaking.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/7/9/1179986/staybright_solder_spec_sheet.pdf
Regards,
Gerald.
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Hi PD'rs,
It has been a while. Too many annoyances getting in the way of the build. I've done some painting and construction on the main cabin and will post some pics when I make a little more progress.
Is there a source for Saito Boiler pressure gauges? Sources for Saito parts seems to be the worlds' best kept secret.
Updates coming soon,
Iran
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Hi PD's......ir3.....you don't need to use a Saito manufactured or branded gauge..... :breakcomp ....any model steam gauge will suffice :shhh ...but I think they are all made in the same factory somwhere in Europe & branded in house names
I am sure that Winfried could manufacture a 4 mm OD tube silver solder through tee with the bottom leg pre fitted with the required siphon U leg & pre fitted with a pressure gauge
The cheaper alternative would be to purchase a packet of four DUBRO nickle plated "Dura" collars....to suit 5/32" shaft Pt No 140....drill out the grubscrew hole to suit you required siphon U leg & install a locally stocked model pressure gauge.....Derek
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I am also building the Delta Queen but with the Hartman plans. Saw the two questions 1) wood deck 2) cabin on bow. The deck is Ironwood from Siam and the outside is painted tar black with red over it so the grain can not be seen. It has a small curvature so that after each trip in the Bay they could wash it down fast for the next trip. The King and Queen were overnight ferry boats that carried cars and did leak oil.
The cabin at the bow held 42 bunk beds for males and the cabins held 200 passengers.
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As I build the Delta Queen I have many questions about how to build it. The smoke stack retracts down for high water and low bridges. I went to Keokuk, Iowa several years ago for the Riverboat festival but when I arrived I found that the Delta Queen was in Hannibal Missouri because of the high water and could not get to Keokuk. I drove down to Hannibal just in time for the bell rang and horn sounded to tell that it was going to sail. I took as many photographs as I could and as it approached the bridge the smoke stack retracted into it self and barely went under the bridge. Thanks to GPS.
I am using a 7 channel transmitter and want to know if anyone knows or has an idea of how to build a retractable stack.
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Hi PD's......kurlander ...a few questions..... :whistle
1. what scale DQ are you building?
2. what are the model size/s of the funnels?.........diameters & total height
3. do the funnels fold down as a pair? or are they telescopic as a pair?
Either way...either style........they can be build using Bowden type cables ....taking s leaf from the aero guys......let us know the method of retraction & I will provide a simple sketch.......Derek
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Thanks in advance. The scale is 1/50
I have put a photograph to show the stack. The narrow part drops down into the fat part and the antenna folds down. I was thinking of making the small tube longer and below inside the deck put some form of gear to raise the tube.
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kurlander ...we can certainly see vertical slides on the STDB side of the chimney stack........
Following mud map is one way of lowering & raising your inner chimney stack
1. we have a fixed outer & fixed inner tube stacks
2. we have an inner telescopic tube stack
3. it has a fixed spider which connects to the control cable
4. the cable is a Du-BRO product No 165 [from any model shop]
5. it connects to a standard servo...which pushes & pulls the semi rigid cable to elevate or lower the inner stack
6. if you are using a programable Tx ...you could pre program the vertical travel :hammer ....Derek
PS the reason for turning the image 90 degrees was to get a larger view & text
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Sorry Derek, but that would never work....
A flexible cable is fine if your pulling it, but if you push it it will simply buckle - It would need a rigid link from the servo to be able to push the funnel up. Alternatively you could use some rack and pinion track if there was enough space to install it below the funnel?
Regards
Eddy
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Hi PD's.... :whistle...I acknowledge that I have no aero experience with cables...but do have 40 ++ years of marine experience in both commercial and naval roles in various forms of power transmision applications
A widely used method of simple low energy linear power movement is via "bowden cables" as previously offered in my posting on June 01, 2011, 04:35:06 PM
If one were to research "bowden cables" it would be clear that they must be constrained at ends or extremities to prevent buckling
From this I do believe such a Du-BRO product No 165 bowden style cable is worth considering for the application question by kurlander ....Derek
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With some modification, it would be possible to use bowden cables - But it would have to be designed as a closed loop "Push-pull" system so that one of the cables was always pulling, much like aero modellers often use on an aircraft rudder.
Eddy
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Hi Eddy and Derek,
Sorry Eddy, have to go with Derek on this one.
I haven't used the steel cable varient, but have used the cheeper nylon inner (about 1.5mm dia) running inside a nylon sleeve, as a single push-pull control on a couple of 1m span flying models for rudder and elevator control. Single cable for each.
In this funnel raising use, the funnel would have to be free running as any binding would lock it up and bend the inner outside the end fittings, which would best be kept as short as possible. ie the end of the outer clamped very near to the funnel fixing and at the servo end.
The only downside is that the further the end if the inner travels from the end of the outer, the more likely the inner is to bend if the funnel meets any obstruction.
cheers
kiwi
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I agree that the nylon "snakes" would work Harry - But as you rightly say it would have to be very free running!
Eddy
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I want thank you all for the input. It has given me a new insight. I like the cable type of system. If I placed inside the outside tube two plastic (or other material) channels on each side the length of the tube and on the sliding tube glue two strips that fit inside the channels and that would keep the stack sliding straight.
One problem with the Hartman plans is that they do not give any dimensions for the smokestack so I have to figure it out. The original Delta Queen did not have this stack for there were no low bridges they had to go under. They had to rebuild when the went East.
Since the plans do show the dimensions of the pilot house as 4 inches high and is as high as the curve of the bottom tube I can see that the retracting stack is about another 4 inches. I will do closer figuring as I start building. Thanks again.
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Hi PD's........kurlander we have another current paddler build where the constructor has installed two small diameter brass [K&S] tubes with belled out ends & he is runing an equal push/pull cable set for the rudder control :hammer
I will try & think of the build & post a link...as his work in this respect is interesting........
We also have another current DQ build by ir3 ......you could consider sending him a PM asking the dimensions of his smoke stack & reconfirm the scale........ Derek
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I am always willing to consider anything about the Delta King and Queen for it helps build a present boat that has changed over the years. I appreciate any help I can get.
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Sorry PD's.....ERROR.....I think the setup below is running chains in a pull/pull steering setup...... :beer ...............Derek
where the constructor has installed two small diameter brass [K&S] tubes with belled out ends & he is runing an equal push/pull cable set for the rudder control
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I did the natural thing and bought the paddle wheel kit from Barry in Australia.
It is great. I read the instructions about 5 times and went over the pieces to see how they would fit. I then realized that my fat fingers would not fit in to paint after construction so I went outside and painted all the pieces. I then slowly glued the wheel together. I used Loctite Super Glue Control Gel which can place a pin head of glue as you squeeze the sides and one does not have to wait long to have it dry. TO REMOVE IT FROM YOUR FINGERS USE CHEAP COOKING OIL AND RUB THE SPOT. I could not find any small bearings to fit the shaft so I got the Du-Bro Nylon Nose Gear Block cat # 156, cut them apart and enlarged the holes to fit the shaft to where they spin freely. Am thinking of drilling a small hole and attaching a flexible tube to drop sewing machine oil into it for the Delta has many tubes to lubricate the block.. After full assembly I took a red permanent marker and touched up places where I scratched the paint. Photos in next post.
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Here are the photos:
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That's a very nice wheel you have there. I like the ruler shot, gives a nice perspective on the scale.
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Hi PD'rs,
I've been away from the build for a while but now back on it. :hammer No new pics yet but some will be coming. This kit, while starting out to be quite nice, deteriorated very quickly. :( Most of the plywood shrunk or changed shape making the building of the cabin structure very difficult and requiring too much time for me to invest to make corrections. The results of this will be that my model will be one that has been on the river for 15 years and is desperate need dry dock and retrofit.
:offtopic I have a question about a hobby shop in Australia. It is the Hobby Centre run by David Cooper. I placed an order from him for some Saito Parts over 3 months ago. About a month into the order I email'ed him for an update and he said that they were about two weeks away and would soon be available. Two months later, no parts and no response to 4 email requests for information. I sent him a sizable sum of money for the items and unfortunately I am past the time to have PayPal do an investigation. I guess I am out the funds and of course, will never do any business with that establishment again. :41 Does anyone know of this shop and the reputation of the proprietor.
Secondly, when I first got interested in Steam, I purchased the kits for the Clyde steam engine from Miniature Steam Pty Ltd. I am not going to use this engine. It is built but has not had steam applied. The cladding has not been installed. I have the engine, burner, boiler, two inch refillible fuel tank and the oil trap. If anyone is interested, please contact me offline.
Thanks and updates to the build will be posted soon.
Iran
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Post a message about the steam plant in the "Buy, Sell or Swap" area with some photos Iran, and I'm sure someone will be interested.
Regards
Eddy
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Hi PD's.......ir3...when I was contemplating my Y2DR..I e-mailed 3 Australian retailers who presented the Y2DR SAITO product on the respective WEB sites
Hobby Centre run by David Cooper ......was one of the 3...however they did not acknowledge my enquiry...although did put me on the mailing list!!!!! .......needless to say I have deleted the auto listing offers
All I could suggest is continued polite communications from you ..... :ranting...like one per day......Derek
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Blimey! That didn't take you very long to do. Looks like you did a good job of putting the wheel together.
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Iran, going back to an earlier part of this post, could you please measure for me the length (centre of crank hole to centre of hole the link attaches too) of the Pitman Arms. I am slowly progressing with my New Zealand sternwheeler Manuwai and would like to copy the Delta Queen system of rods and links.
Thanks, Ian.
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Iran, going back to an earlier part of this post, could you please measure for me the length (centre of crank hole to centre of hole the link attaches too) of the Pitman Arms. I am slowly progressing with my New Zealand sternwheeler Manuwai and would like to copy the Delta Queen system of rods and links.
Thanks, Ian.
If the model is steam powered, the length of the sternwheel crank has to be half the length of the engine stroke - ie. if the engine has a 2" (50mm) stroke, then the crank will be 1" (25mm). If your using electric for power you can make the length anything you want, as long as it looks right...
Regards
Eddy
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Eddy, I am going to run cranks on a dummy shaft, not directly on the engine. The engine will drive the dummy shaft by chain and sprocket to get the reduction I feel will be needed. I just want to find out how short a crank length I can get away with. By mounting the dummy shaft just above deck level where the cylinders originally sat I am hoping to get away without cutting too deep a slot in the transom for the link to operate in. I will also try and hide the cranks behind fake cylinders if they are not too long. I agree that with cranks fitted direct to the engine crankshaft the centre to centre length would have to be half the stroke. As I understand the Saito paddler engine to have a 20mm stroke that would mean a 10mm crank centres length. It would be good to get away with one that short which is why I would like it confirmed. Cheers, Ian.
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Hi Ian,
The distance between crank pins on the Pitman arms is 232mm. Hope that helps.
Sorry about not posting but I have not been able to get to my projects for some time. Hope to get back soon.
Thanks for keeping the thread alive.
Regards to all,
Iran
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Stopped building while my two grandchildren were with me this summer. They are gone and back to the basement.
Found out that the smoke stack tips back to the height of the pilot house and does not retract. When I saw it the black smoke was thick and covered the stack but I found this on the web.
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Moving along slowly. Found out that there was a 1/4th inch difference in the plans between the port and starboard side. As one can see I am using the drive plans on this site but used two 7 inch drawer runners to move the wheel for they have bearings. Soldered brass plates on each end so if I made a mistake I can replace the plate. The lattice in the top is my railing
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Hello All,
This is my first post on PD. I have read through this thread and noted the various frustrations you have been having with the Saito Delta Queen, Iran. I also note the general frustrations people seem to be having with sourcing Saito steam products.
An excellant source of Saito steam products is Model Shop Captain in Osaka (http://www.rc-ms-captain.jp/) This is a relatively small suburban shop but sells about half of all steam products made by Saito. They have quite a wide range of Saito products in stock (I have twice been to the shop and seen them on the shelves!). They will also supply by mail order - I have purchased Delta Queen and Neptune together with engines, boilers etc by mail order and the service has been prompt. Shipping charges have also been very reasonable. There are only two problems:
- the shop is run by a very nice husband and wife (Mr and Mrs Takeuchi) but neither speaks or writes English - help from someone who can speak and write Japanese is essential.
- they cannot accept international payments by credit card - if you go to the shop, there is no problem but if you order from overseas, you will need to make payment by bank draft. I have done this twice with no problems.
As well as Saito engines, boilers and boat kits, Model Shop Captain also has the full range of Saito accessories (separator tanks, smoking tanks etc) and spare parts including steam fittings and o-rings. I bought quite a few of these to avoid the sort of problems Iran seems to have been having with matching threads. Model Shop Captain also offer their own very neat little pressure guage which I have used on two projects so far. It has threads to fit a Saito boiler and is both smaller (22mm dia) and cheaper than the genuine Saito guage (which is about 50mm).
When I purchased Delta Queen, Mr Takeuchi sent me a letter with advice that he said come from the Saito factory. There is a design problem with the direct drive connecting rods for the paddlewheel. At some parts of the cycle, the rods are lower at the engine end than the paddlewheel end. Apparently, this leads to a lot of water coming down the rods into the boxes either side of the engine and then into the hull. The modification advised by Saito is to use an intermediate shaft mounted directly above the engine bearings and driven from the crankshaft by gears or a belt. The advice also suggested that a 2:1 reduction in the gearing is beneficial to keep the engine running smoothly at low revs (it has no flywheel). The letter included simple drawings and, if you like, I could try to scan it.
After buying the Delta Queen kit, I became interested in the original ship so took a cruise on it shortly before it went out of service in late 2009. Apart from being fascinating to see the real thing in action (including a tour of the engine room), I took lots of photos. Dealing with a couple of the questions raised in this thread, I can say that, in its final form:
- the foredeck is red painted steel plate (see attached photo)
- the funnel folds to the rear (see attached photo)
As a contirbution to the discussion about the padlewheel, I attach a photo of that as well.
If Iran or anyone else would like to see more photos of the real DQ, I am happy to post them or provide them on CD.
One interesting feature of the real DQ I discovered when on board is that it was fitted with bow and stern thrusters some time in the 1990s. The DQ had aparently become almost a danger to other river traffic because of its very poor turning ability and was unable to safely get into several mooring places. I plan to install thrusters on my model because I know people have had a lot of trouble steering sternwheelers.
Regards.
Tony
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Thanks for the information. I just watched my recording of World Cup Rugby from NZ and was happy to see the ALL BLACKS finally beat France in the championships.
I was aware of the bow thruster and have installed one but didn't know about the stern one. As a scratch builder I also found that water would seep in so I put the motor and drive at deck level and the only thing under is the thruster with the motor in its own compartment just in case and a bilge pump.
Do your photographs show air conditioning/heating ducts running along the second deck (see attachment) or is that something added when converted to a hotel?.
I am again going to take a trip to it March 6, 2012 to do some refined photographs (1400 miles+ round trip) to answer several questions for my tour guide the last time was the chef/janitor/handy man/etc who only new the basics.
You are right about the color of the bow but the sides are black and the stern is red. The Delta King in California has the black deck.
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Hi PD's....& welcome onboard NZB-Tony :coffee
That is an interesting post with the detail of (Mr and Mrs Takeuchi) & certainly their SAITO pricing appears very competitive [pity about the credit card & the language barrier...however Bank exchanges are not difficiult & Google translation is near fool proof]
[When I deal with Japanese work colleagues....invariably I type the communication :crash in English but also translate into Japanese in the same e-mail....it has not failed yet]
Having said all of this....I have previously acknowledged that I support my local model supply store for the components that they stock :bravo
The issue with my original SAITO Y2DR purchase enquiry was :a102...
"the local hobby shop does not stock SAITO"
"the Australian importer of SAITO not stock SAITO"
But I still forced to purchase the a local model supply store
CRAZY marketing.......... & hence the huge % mark ups ......
Keep us posted with your DQ or any other build....... Derek :beer
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Hello
A reply to Kurlander about the DQ ducting. I do not recall this being there when I took my cruise on the vessel (which I realise now was 2008 rather than 2009 as I suggested in my first post). I attach photos of the upper and lower deck showing the underside of the roof - no ducts.
I realise that two of the photos I thought I had attached to my earlier post was missing - the one of the funnel and the one of foredeck. They are attached here. Let me know if there are any other aspects of the real DQ you are interested in as I took about 100 photos.
In response to Derek, by all means have a go at communicating with Mr Takeuchi by computer translation. I can tell for certain that he will not understand the Engish text other than words like "boiler"! Mind you, I had another look at the Model Shop Captain website after sending my earlier post and I see it has been completely upgraded, including "contact us" so it may be that he has had some help from a webmaster. If so, that person may help him understand messages in English. I will give it a try myself soon.
Regards.
Tony
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Hi PD'rs,
Well, my DQ still sits on the workbench. When I started this project I was looking forward to putting a very nicely detailed DQ on the water. However, throughout the building process it became very clear that the amount of work needed to get the kit just right proved to be quite overwhelming. Most of the problems were due to shrinkage of the wood over time. Pieces did not quite match up. I think this kit was at least 10 and perhaps 15 years old. Of course, I can't claim that if I had a fresh kit I would have done any better. I just simply have lost interest in finishing the model. Wood models are now out of the question for me. I have a very nice backlog of various kits in plastic, fiberglass, grp ... several of which will be steam powered.
Of course, now I have the TY2DR steam plant that I probably will not find an application for. I am located in Los Angeles, CA, USA if there is anyone interested in this model as is. I have no problem parting with the steam plant and letting the rest of the model sit and gather dust.
I am very happy that I started the thread and the contributions to the thread have been great. The skills and dedication of the contributors is exemplary. Keep the thread going. I will be following it very closely.
Regards to all,
Iran
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If I was living in CA I would probably be at your door yesterday but since I live 1500+ miles away and will only be in LA until next spring I have to do this by computer.
The question is can your engine can drive a 1/50 scale paddle wheel in water?. I ask this question for I found out that a drive belt is not strong enough for it slips.
So that I would not have to go to the lake to test things out I built a 7 foot by 3 foot frame 1 foot deep on my back deck and put in plastic to hold water. Due to early cold I disassemble it before photographing it to avoid deck problems so I will do it next spring.
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Hi Kurlander and PD'rs,
I can't answer directly the question about driving the 1/50 scale paddle wheel but I am sure that there is plenty of expertise on this forum to answer the question. The steam plant is the TY2DR which is made for the Saito DQ and the B2F boiler.
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Hi PD's..... :whistle ...if the wheel is 1:50 then the scale of the vessel is also 1:50.......but what size is the original vessel......300 foot long or 100 foot long?
This is the missing dimension in the question & to make matters more complex :ranting....steam power it self can be a very deceiving medium
Steam engines produce their greatest output torque [power] at the lowest RPM :great ...whereas electric motors provide their greatest output torque [power] at near full nominal RPM :a102
Saito state that their Y2DR 9CC twin cylinder horizontal engine is capable of producing 0.035HP..........thats approx 26 watts of output power
Saito also advise the engine is designed for vessels between 1000 mm and 1500 mm in length
Secondly, the Y2DR is designed for direct or indirect motion but based upon a 1:1 drive...if you are having difficulity with belt slippage it is the inability of the belt to transmit the power being delivered........a toothed belt would not suffer from belt slip...but may cause the motor to be loaded to the point where thermal build up creates an issue & current draw skyrockets .....there are so many variables here :sorry
Derek
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You got me thinking for I was just reading Hartman's plans and did not measure the drawings themselves.
My boat is 69.5 inches long or about 1/48 scale and should be 67 inches long at 1/50 scale if I did my arithmetic (my worst subject) right.
He writes on the plans to make cardboard cutouts of the drawings and I did and they state 1/50 scale. I should have started to think when the two deck sides were off by a 1/4 inch. The actual boat is 285 feet long and my hull is 69.5 inches with wheel or 1770 mm or past Saitos' recommendation. If the recommendation is just the hull without wheel then it is about 1541mm or at the top of the range.
At the present time I went into my parts department and salvaged a high torque motor from one of my RC cars and geared it down and until I am done will use it while looking for a steam engine.
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Hi PD's..........kurlander :whistle ...I am sure SAITO are talking of hull length.....
Your "temporary" fix of a salvaged a high torque geared down electric motor is fine....are you aiming for say 100 to 150 paddle shaft RPM? ...or say 200 RPM & use a speed controller?
The latter would provide a far more accurate method for determining the optimum max revs........& you could also then measure current draw & convert that to watts .....but :nono ...as they would be input watts...so would need to make an assumption of the actual motor & drive efficiency ......maybe 60% ?
Keep us posted with your progress & some photo images if possible....always an interesting subject these paddlers
Derek :beer
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Hi PD'rs,
I am now between the proverbial rock and a hard place. There was some interest in the TY2DR but it is still in the boat. I am at a decision point. After reading some of the comments about the possible necessity to change the geometry of the Paddle Wheel drive because of water getting back into the hull and the apparent need to go to a 2:1 reduction to drive the Wheel since the TY2DR may not be able to run at very low speeds, I am going to pull the engine out of the boat and try to sell it through some of the modeling venues. When I saw some of the model DQ videos I thought that they were moving a bit fast for the correct scale. As I said before, this was not a very satisfying build and now faced with the possibility of some retrofitting, the boat goes. Once again, if the boat were packed up and shipped within the US, the shipping charges would be manageable. If anyone has any interest in acquiring the nearly complete boat or the whole 9 yards please let me know.
Thanks,
Iran
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Hullo Iran...... :sorry to read of the continued issues you found with the model of your DQ build.....
I could only hope that you may keep alive a desire to build another paddler & look forward to your postings in the future........ :beer .....Derek
PS.... :shhh ...but that Y2DR will appreciate in % value greater that the national home current market %........ $ of the USA......... :trophy
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I have slowly progressed with the Delta Queen for there are some discrepancies between the plans and the photos so I will be driving to Chattanooga TN in March (1400 miles round trip) to verify what I think I saw and photograph the slide references shown on the plans. Yesterday and today I am cutting out 80 doors with panels and then will start with the windows. For doorknobs will use small gold pins pushed through and glued in back. Got that Idea assembling the paddle wheel.
I have decided to go electric but wanted smoke out of the stack but found out that no one is allowed to ship such unit out of Europe where almost all units are. I recently found one in the USA at http://www.harbormodels.com/ .
I will check it out before buying when I go to California in June. It looks like I could run a small tube from it to the calliope to make it smoke when playing. I like the idea that it puts out variable smoke with the throttle.
Since this is the cold time 4 to37 degrees F (-15 to5 C) I can't do any painting for I am not allowed to stink up the house unless the windows are open it has to wait until spring.
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After our trip to Chattanooga TN I put my new photographs of the Delta Queen with my others and made a slide show. This was to compare the blue prints with reality. I found out that the blue prints on the 80 doors did not include door frames so I have to redo the doors. I also saw that the other doors did not include frames. Better now than later.
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For those who have been holding their breath waiting for more posts by me can now exhale. I have been in hiatis due to 2 grandchildren, mother in law having at least 8 strokes, wife falling and breaking her back, and football, rugby and basketball season.
I am now free again until 2 weeks from now when the grandchildren visit again.
One of my last posts dealt with a folding down smoke stack and my solution is a 1.5 inch plumbing pipe and Du-Bro Micro E/Z hinge 937 glued to it at the folding part. The attachment shows a white pipe but will be painted black and the hinge is covered by a cowle.
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My next problem was the 6 rudders and a bow thruster. I finally settled for 3 servos for the rudder and the bow thruster a separet channel. The back two rudders had to have their rods fastened to the sides for if they moved sideways they could wipe out the paddle wheel in the middle of the lake.
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Hi PD's........ :whistle ...& welcome back kurlander
I see the servos & read your text but am a little confused :shhh
The port servo is dual connected to the outboard [two or three?] rudders
The centre servo is tri connected to the inboard three monkey rudders
The stdb servo appears to be also connected to the link arm of the outboard rudders :crash
I am sure there must be a logical explanation .....just that I cannot see it :shoot....oh...& are the control rods stainless?.......Derek
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Fast answer. All the rudders are connected together with Y cables so that they all move in the same direction. The two outside servos regulate the back two rudders and the center has the four front rudders.
Every thing runs off a twelve volt garden tractor battery with BEC to the receiver to eliminate extra batteries.
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OK...I understand now....the outboard two servos provide a push/pull function & eliminate any tendency for rod buckling.......... :clap .........Derek
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Hi PD'rs,
I appreciate the problems you are having with the rudders. I struggled with that problem way back when.
I am revisiting to see if anyone finally answered the question of the thread size for the steam input port for Saito Steam Engines. It seems that this is one of the best kept secrets. I remember Derek had a response but I can not find it at the moment.
I don't quite understand why it is so difficult to get this information. Someone must supply fittings for these engines since Saito does not supply anything with the engine itself.
I still have a T2DR and plan on using it in a Model Slipways Envoy, but pipe fitting hardware for these engines does not appear to exist anywhere.
Thanks guys and please keep the Delta Queen build up to date.
Iran
BTW, it appears that Saito has now introduced a new paddle wheeler loosely based on the Delta Queen.
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Iran....I am still plodding on with my Saito Y2DR horizontal engine adding bits & pieces as I go...what was your question again on ...."question of the thread size for the steam input port for Saito Steam Engines"? ....Derek
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Hi Derek,
It is totally exasperating. No one in the world know what the fitting size is for the high pressure steam input port on the Saito engines. Everyone I contact who has used one of these engines has no idea of the thread measurement. I have no idea what size tubing and/or tubing nut to be used. If I am correct, you changed the Y2DR with machined parts that you made for the steam input manifold.
Why is it so difficult to find the proper fitting for these engines?
Iran
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Iran....it is no secret that the steam tubing thread form on Saito engines is unique :41 .....my Y2DR steam tubes are as follows
HP inlet = 4.0 mm diameter tube with a 6.81 mm OD captive nut x 0.6 mm pitch thread form ...the two HP fittings have machine manufactured nuts captive by silver soldered bosses on the tube
LP discharge = 4.0 mm diameter tube with a 6.81 mm OD captive nut x 0.6 mm pitch thread form ...the two LP fittings have rolled machined threads and the tube bosses are from the actual crimped tube
I have checked all conceivable thread form tables...& these are literally bast**d sized .....
From this it is clear that I can match the 4.0 mm OD tubing with 5/32" imperial stock...........Derek
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Iran, I remember having the same problem when installing my Saito V4 several years ago. The problem now is that I dont remember exactly what the answer was! I think that what I discovered was :-
1) That 90% of the brass fittings available in those days throughout the world were imperial threads, either Model Engineers Thread or Brass Thread or BSP.
2) There were metric threads used in some countries but they were not all the same, some were ISO - metric and some were not.
3) If my memory is correct the Japanese metric threads were not the same as European (ISO) Metric therefore you are only likely to get the correct threaded part from Japan or by making something.
4) Again relying on distant memory I think the V4 had a 4mm metric fine thread and that the pitch was perhaps 0.7mm. I have just had a look at my cheap Taps and Dies set which was probably made in Asia and it has taps of 4mm x 0.7, 4mm x 0.75 and also 4.5mm x 0.75.
You really need to find some thread gauges that will measure the pitch and then at least you will know what you are looking for. Hope this helps and doesnt just confuse you more. Cheers, Ian.
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Iran, I see Derek has added to the fund of knowledge while I was slowly tapping the keyboard. I can confirm that you can use 5/32 tube (as used on Graham engines) in place of 4mm tube but I have no idea where you will find 4mm x 0.6 taps and dies. regards, Ian.
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My Delta Queen so far.
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Second photograph
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Another view. The walls are 1/8 inch thick wood with plastic sheet that looks like wood siding glued to it.
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I am now in the process of putting down the roof of the first deck but now will have to figure out an easy way to remove the rest of the decks for battery changes or other material such as smoke generator, sound module and lights.
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As I wash showing off my boat, I was asked about the roughness of the edges between the hull and deck. My reply was "one has to go to the real boat to see what rough is".
I then realized that most people have never been on the boat and had a good look at it.
Previously IR3 at the beginning questioned why Saito planked the front deck for he thought it was steel. I also made a mistake for I said the deck was painted black. Actually the DELTA KING has the black deck and the DQ has the red deck.
When I went visiting I found that the whole deck of the DQ is wood up to the stern paddle wheel. The paddle wheel section is all steel.
IR3 was partially right for there is a steel plate on top of the wood down the center of the bow that holds the anchor and post for the catwalk. To my surprise I found that the deck is not visibly bolted to the hull. The deck sits on a lip and then welded tabs spaced about three feet apart are bent over to hold the wood down. The enclosed photo will show this with the raised steel on the wood. The wood has seen so much water that it is slowly rotting along the edges.
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It is time for me to present some of my build since my last post.
I have finished the first deck and started on the second deck and found a conflict. The second deck blue prints do not come close to what the boat looks like now.
I read the history of the boat and it stated that there was a dance floor used as the boat crossed San Francisco Bay.
My last visit to the boat showed no such area but I put it at the back of my mind until now when I am building that deck. It was that then when the blueprints were made but not now.
The front lounge area has been moved back about 30 feet and replaced by a storage cabinet.
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It is to cold to work in my unheated basement (this morning when I came downstairs it was -13 F and the wind chill -38F outside) I have brought some of my work upstairs.
I took apart several DVD drives I had sitting around an retrieved several small motors for the radar units The Queen has two because of the smoke stack.
It is to cold to work in my unheated basement (this morning when I came downstairs it was -13 F and the wind chill -38F outside) I have brought some of my work upstairs.
I took apart several DVD drives I had sitting around an retrieved several small motors for the radar units The Queen has two because of the smoke stack.
For Christmas I received a dashboard camera which I will place in the pilot house and record the boat ride. It was suggested that I get a transmitter and then watch the ride in real time. I nixed that for the time being for I would have to carry a small tv receiver while operating the boat and it would have to transmit over 150 feet.
My first problem was to figure out how to make the windows for some are curved at the top with a small stained glass window on top while others are basic windows.
For the stained glass windows, I took a photograph of the ones on the boat, enhanced it in Photoshop and then miniaturized it to the size I need. I then placed as many as I could on a 4 by 6 inch card and then printed it on shiny photo paper. I then cut out the frames, painted them and glued them over the pictures.
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My next challenge was the regular windows. All windows have venetian blinds so I started to look for pictures of blinds. None fit the bill so I closed all the blinds in my house and took the photographs. That did not work for there was reflections. I then waited till dark and turned off all the lights except two, one on each side of the window and with the camera on a tripod and no flash, I took the photograph and it worked. I enhanced it with Photoshop miniaturized and placed as many as fit on the 4 X 6 card just like the stained glass one.
I took the same photograph and repeated the process for the curved windows.
My next challenge was the stairs. This was easier than all the rest. After I found out that I have fat fingers, I went to the local hobby store and went through their great model train set area and found pre made stairs that just fit fine. They are made by Plastruct in California and come in different sizes. Their website is plastruct.com if anyone wants to see their catalog.
Once I make all the windows an doors, I shall start gluing them on the walls.
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Being still cold outside and in my unheated basement I chose to concentrate on the radar system. There are two radars revolving due to the smoke stack. From previous posts on the internet the motors opening the tray on a DVD/CD unit on your computer runs the same speed. I had several old such units in my attic so I took the units apart and now have several motors. Now I have to put a revolving unit on top of them.
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While certain people are enjoying a heat wave, I was in a minor snow fall with the wind chill at -2F..
My wife lately has been making snide remarks about me moving my basement workplace up to the dining room.
Ignoring remarks, I have finished one side of the boat and the stern. Today during a snow powder I made the vending machines at the stern (not seen by lookers) and now will build the bench so that children could watch the wheel and not get wet.
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Got several of my figures for my boat today.
Enclosed are the figures.
First we have a photographer taking a photo. Second is a person eating a Hoagie ( Linda said it looks like Chris Christy the governor of New Jersey ,Political joke). We then have a person sitting on the bench and then a loving couple sitting on a bench and then a couple walking.
This is the second deck. I will have to work on the next two decks
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why is the sprite vending machine upside down ;)
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It is not glued down on the boat yet. I put the vending machines in to compare size.
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I am almost done with the second deck. Had to assemble the parts in the cold basement to see where to cut the staircase holes were to be cut.
I then had to figure out how to turn the boat and the expected lighting system on and off so that I can assemble it at home and turn it on at the pond. Decided that I would not put in the stairs at the back on each side behind a railing leading to the main deck and put in two rocker switches.
The back splash board on the blueprint did not show where the windows were to cut so I took a photograph I had of the boat and with Photoshop made it fit the blue print and marked it. For glass I used the clear plastic from one of my CD-DVD cases.
I enclose several photographs.
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Thought I would show some progress on the Delta Queen before I leave to see her tomorrow.
Thought of the problem of gluing down the guard rail for the blue prints show that they are square posts but my photos show that they are round. I think Hartman had a problem with the posts so he made them square for stability.
I found tubing small enough so that when I get all the steps from one deck to the next squared away I will mark the spots for the posts and push a pin through from the bottom of the deck up and cut off half of the pin on top and then push the post on to it.
On the top of the post I shall cut a pin short and put down a pinhead and paint it brown. For the posts holding up the next deck will have the same pin inserted
I did find another figure for the boat and will put her on the top front deck.
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I finally got some more work done and took some photos. The delays were that there are no instructions so I had to figure out how all things should fit and did I do some deep thoughts. The first deck could almost not conform to today's boat for the King and Queen were ferry boats and the first deck carried cars and they did not have that many windows.
My problem came up when I started to figure out how to light her since every deck will be screwed down to the one below.
I have added some photographs.
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More photos
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I am now looking for a RC controlled on off switch for the lights. I am using the Hightek 6 channel transmitter so any ideas will be appreciated.
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Well PDR's,
I have gone around in circles so many times I am getting very dizzy. Dizzy enough to get back on the Saito Delta Queen. I realize the thread has been shared which is great. I am not going to add too much more to the conversation but there are two things I am going to do and could use some feedback. First, I an going to gear down the drive from the Y2DR to the drivers. From the videos I have seen the Queen is moving on the water like a speed boat. This is basically a very docile slow moving boat and so slowing down the paddle wheel is the thing to do. Secondly, I am going to raise the float count from 6 to 12 and make them a bit narrower to look a little more to scale. Hopefully, adding the floats will not impede the traction of the paddle wheel in the water. I have no experience in doing this.
Any feedback would be appreciated and maybe Kurlander can add some more of his build.
Until next time,
IR3
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Regarding gearing down, this will make your engine spin faster and use up more steam. You'd only want to do this if the engine is too small to power the paddlewheels directly, which isn't the case.
Why can't you simply reduce the steam to the cylinders so the engine rotates slow enough?
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Thanks for the reply. I only saw one video of the Saito Delta Queen on the water and it appeared that it was moving like a speedboat. So my concern was that I wouldn't be able to turn the paddle wheel slow enough to give it a reasonable scale speed. Can I run the T2DR slow enough? I really have no running experience with the T2DR as of yet. I will try it directly coupled as you suggest.
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Hi PD's & welcome back Iran :coffee
Without going back into the thread archives, remember scale....& if the paddle structure is built to scale [diameter, no of blades, width of blades, depth of immersion etc] then scale speed will be applicable
The basic formula is [the cube root of scale multiplied by the actual RPM = scale RPM requirement]
As kno3 suggests, the Saito Y2DR is capable of a direct drive, or in your case :hammer...a 1:1 drive ratio.......I must go back & understand what steam regulator you have available or fitted, as a quality component here will help provide slow and well controlled paddle speed
Keep us posted ......... Derek :beer
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My Saito T2DR engines are able to turn dead slow, so I assume all do. As Derek says, you need a good steam valve that can finely regulate the steam to the engine.
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Thanks for the comments, much appreciated The trick is finding a good steam valve. Kramer has a very nice one as well as Eskadar. There is also one on eBay which I cant think of the seller at the moment. I have both the one from eBay and Kramer. The one from Kramer is a bit pricey but not being a machinist so one must do ones best. It appears to be very well made just as his steam engines.
I am currently installing the Y2DR in the hull and will post when I have most of the installation complete. BTW, I sold the first DQ and this is another kit I managed to acquire in the last several months.
Until next time,
Iran
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ir3...the steam control valve marketed by Kramer is actually manufactured by ANTON [French]..so should function well
Derek
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I use these ANTON Fittigns, they are very fine with a good precision.
Andy
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ir3
I am answering your email here for there might be others who might be given insight.
I do not have the Saito but am still building it 1/48 scratch.
I also tried cables for the rudders and ran into trouble so I went to wire. The Delta Queen uses 1 cable that comes out of one side of the hull and under the paddle wheel axle then goes up above deck and behind the wheel makes 90 degree turn towards the rudder where it is attached to both rudders and then at the other side of the wheel goes back under the axle and into the hull.
I finally did the same thing but used wire that controls model airplanes.
The first photo shows the cable and the second shows my wire setup .
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Kurlander, thanks for the post. A very solid installation. Too bad Saito didn't take a similar approach. I am hoping that someone has seen the rudder connections for the aft pair or they know of a drawing. I can't believe that Saito left this part of the build out of the assembly manual. There is no drawing in the DQ manual or the Victoria manual. I am going to move on to the installation of the steam plant and hopefully something will show up about the rudder connections.
Until next time,
IR3
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I was thinking after your request, I realized That I had a photograph of a finished what I believe is the Saito Delta Queen. The lobby of the Queen had two different models in plexiglass mounts. One was the Hartman model and the other was yours.
Enclosed are three photos two of the Saito one an enlargement of the rudder. I hope this helps?
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Oops I missed one
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Thanks for the pictures. Hooking up the rudder cables at the rudders was pretty straight forward. Unfortunately, the internal hookup at the rudder tillers is not obvious. Saito does not have a drawing of this part of the assembly which just happens to be pretty critical. I thought many years ago I did see a picture of the installation but exhaustive searches showed nothing. The picture shows the springs connected to the rudder cables. These are probably not installed properly and I think they should be stretched more. Right now there is a lot of backlash before the aft rudders start to move. I think I will remove the springs and make the connection direct by swagging the cables directly to the tiller arms. Any slack can be taken up by adjusting the clevises at the rudders.
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always loved this boat and similars and having 4 riverboat casinos in my area one day I will find a set of plans and build one of these. love the thread thanks for posting your work
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After a delay I am back to building the boat.
Had family medical problems and after mother in law died I had promised the wife we would move to southern Arizona 1200 miles as the crow flies. Downsized from a two and half story house with basement to a one story house.
Ever try shipping a 6 foot boat? It arrive almost perfect. Driver must have missed the road a few times.
My first project after moving in was to find the hobby stores and the closest pond. Nothing within 25 miles one way in this desert. Am doing some online shopping.
My first project was to see how she floats so I built me my test tub in the back yard. Photo attached. Wood frame and 3 mill plastic stapled inside.
My daughter said that it will attract all the scorpions in the hood when they smell the water.
I filled it with water and put the boat in. I then observed that the bow thruster was not under water. I moved the battery forward and all was fine. The problem now is to move the steam generator elsewhere.
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:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
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Ah, the thread has come out of hibernation. I redid the rudder cabling but sorry that I have not posted here. The springs were not the answer as they are used for some other rigging on the model. I set the boat aside for a while to complete a Moonraker and a Seabex One. Once they are finished, back to the DQ but please keep the thread going.
Until next time,
IR3
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I am Back! After a hiatus AND 3 funerals I have decided to resume building the DELTA QUEEN.
First I cleaned the 7 foot dinning room table and placed the boat on it. Now I am reading this forum to remind how to build boats.
My next job is to see what is missing and to proceed finishing my boat
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Welcome back. :beer :beer :beer
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Kurlander, welcome back! It will be a great joy to finish your boat and then navigate your sternwheeler on a pond like I with my "Ville des Bruges".
Thomas
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Thank you Kurlander and IR3 for the detailed and informative build logs on the paddle wheeler. As I am building a part model of such a vessel the information on the paddle itself is very interesting to me and will help a lot when I get to that part to build.
Robert
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Welcome back!