Paddleducks
Other Marine Models => Live steam => Topic started by: derekwarner_decoy on November 20, 2010, 10:17:05 AM
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Hi PD's...... :shhh ...but yesterday I found :crash a new unused Saito Y2DR horizontal steam paddle engine [9cc] in a Melbourne hobby shop ....I suspect it has been there for years & years & years & yes :shoot I have ordered & paid for it :sobbing
So a few questions.......
Do any PD members have a Saito steam engine?........[Kiwi?]
Have you ever opened the engine to determine the piston seal type?
Getting WEB site information on the Saito steam product is CRAZY...... :ranting ...Derek
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Derek, I have a V4 Saito and a fellow member of our group has a T2. Both run beautifully. I have copies of the original info sheets for both which, although the English is not too good, do tell you all you need to know including how to set the valve timing for the optimum performance in each direction of rotation. I have never had to dismantle mine but I will have a look at the parts list to see if it says anything about what the piston rings are made of. I seem to remember that when I got mine a few years ago and was looking for info that the name of an Australian agent popped up somewhere - Float A Boat perhaps?. I think it is highly likely that the engine would see action in a paddler far sooner on this side of the Tasman, it seems like ratre of progress with paddler building over there is as slow as the run rate of your cricket team. Shall I P M you my address? ;DCheers, Ian.
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mmmmmmmmmmm Hi PD's.... :gathering ...I knew one of my cousins from across the ditch had a Saito engine running
Lets just wait & see next week what I find....but as Ian suggests :sorry it may take me 1/2 half of my current build....or 5 years to test the new engine........Derek :tongue1
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Hello Derek,
That's a very nice engine you've gotten! I also have a Saito Ｔ２ＤＲ (twin marine with short stroke, they also make one with a longer stroke and also an even larger model, which also has an increased bore):
This is the manufacturer's website with some details:
http://www.saito-mfg.com/steamengine.htm
I am very happy with the way it runs. It is very precisely machined and starts running on low pressure, but is steam tight.
So if yours was well treated it should give you great performance. Since mine runs so well I didn't have to dismantle the pistons and don't know how they seal against the cylinder.
I have had a look at the valves though (just out of curiosity, and because it is easier to remove a valve cover than a piston) and found out that the cylinders have an interesting construction: they are cast bronze or brass, with the valve chest an integral part of the cylinder. The valve port face is then later machined into this casting. By the way, the casting quality is outstanding. I can send you some pictures if you need.
Let us know how your new engine performs (video!).
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Hi PD's....& thankyou both... kiwimodeller & kno3 for your comments
I have five grandchildren :c002 ......but await this true :gift ...& will naturally photograph the engine & keep this as my engine WEB site ......Derek
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Hi PD's....well my Y2DR has not turned up yet :c002........& my call to the Commonwealth Bank :police: has confirmed that the Melbourne Model shop has not debited my credit card.....but an e-mail suggests postage from Melbourne to Wollongong early next week :porkies
Finding any real dimensional detail or reasonable photographs of a Y2DR is like trying to find a hens tooth :sorry ....but I did find a recent sale on ebay as attached.......Derek
http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/SAITO-Twin-Cylinder-Model-Steam-Engine-No-Y2DR-N-R-/250708148740
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:terrific ...the Y2DR arrived today & I have removed :hammer a few bits....[the lubricator] already
Story now is....... :shhh...but Decoy will enter a dockyard on the Eastern seaboard....& be modified ......deck part removed to accept the new engine width & re-emerge as PS Goolwa............circa 1858 on Sydney harbour
This is necessary as the new larger engine & all the accessories will not fit in existing deck opening..... :c002.....Derek
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I am sure it will be well worth the trouble Derek, that is a lovely looking piece of machinery. If however you end up tearing your hair out with frustration at trying to make it fit just send it over here, I have an 80" paddler with a ton of room inside. Cheers, Ian.
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Derek, why don't you try to mount it diagonally for direct drive to the wheels? Most fixed-cylinder paddler engines were mounted that way and it looks very nice. You'd just need to make some adequate supports out of brass.
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Hi PD's....& thanks kno3....I have sketched up some "pillar legs" of similar proportions to the ones shown below...just need to wait until the new larger & lower machinary plate is installed to gauge the correct pillar leg height etc
....I also need two shaft reducing couplings from the 4.0 mm engine crank size to the 5/32" paddle shaft...& this has been problematic in design due to clearances......but the fog :shoot has cleared & I think we have a simple method of attaining this....& the pillar legs....via CREWE Engineering UK :c017
I am also considering adding a small chain pinion in between two of the crank journals for a chain drive to boiler feed make up water pump......we have a few examples shown by Bernhard...although with rotating servo drive.....with the 9cc engine capacity I am sure I will have sufficient power....Derek
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Interesting idea with the pillars, although a bit anachronistic for that kind of engine ;)
The chain driven pump should be fine.
And Derek, do something about your boat + steam plant. They are in the same unfinished state since I first joined this forum! ;D
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Hi PD's....& yes/no.... :laugh: kno3 :whistle...the pillar legs would not have the vertical Grecian scrolling...but serve the purpose to elevate the engine by approx 75 mm :crash
1. the engine has four mounting base pre drilled holes [for M3] on approx 60 mm atwart ships x 75 mm centers FWD to AFT
2. the actual engine base width is approx 120 mm wide atwart ships
3. the Japanese translation suggests 'mount engine so shaft does not bind'
4. from this I propose to suspend/elevate the engine on those same 60 mm x 75 mm load bearing centers...& based upon the manufacturers recommendation.... :-\ ...no non preferential loading is placed upon the base structure of the engine :shhh
5. retirement from my 6 day per week self employment .... :towel would clearly improve the vessel completion date....after all it is only ten years since I drew the first plan set..........Derek
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Hi PD's....only a few days before I fly out to the Whyalla steel works again for my two week :c002 stint over Christmas :oops
kno3 :towel ...you are the only existing PD member I know that has a Saito engine ...are you aware of any documentation that suggests/confirms these engines have some sort of anti corrosive surface over the brass externals? .....Derek
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Hey Derek,
I haven't found any written references to the brass being coated against corrosion, but the Saito boilers I have seem to have a protective lacquer on them. Many others do it to protect the polished brass (I know Wilesco does too).
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Derek,I don't know much about Saito steam engines,but if their quality is anything like their IC aircraft engines,they are top shelf!
Saito use a chrome over aluminium plating in their IC engines,the only manufacturer to use this process.Perhaps they use a similar process over the brass parts you mention.
Saito's machining is unbelievably fine and smooth.IIRC,they actually used to make live steam locomotives as well.
I'm sure you will be more than happy with your purchase.
I don't know if this is any use to you:
http://www.loyalhannadockyard.com/Saito.htm
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Hello Derek and PD's,
The Y2DR just arrived. Rather timely I would say. My fireboat is just about complete and I plan on starting the Delta Queen in the next week or so. Derek, did you get a chance to fire up your Y2DR and if I missed something, what model do you plan on using it in.
Happy Holidays to all,
Iran
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merry Christmas to all this 25/12.....ir3...... :sorry....I have not steamed the Y2DR...just trialed on compressed air
massive torque on approx 5PSI.... :bravo ......at this stage I plan to rename PS Decoy to PS Goolwa and remove the JMC 3H chain drive engine & use the Y2DR direct drive :crash :crash :crash :crash
Our colleague kno3 has shamed me :sobbing with my build slowness but :shhh
Some photos of my build under Photo Gallery/Member Gallery/derekwarner_decoy :oops
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;u=17
Naturally the boiler/gas tank/condensor & bits & pieces will be lowered into the hull, but the Y2DR will be on axis with the current paddle axis etc......
I am on night shift this week performing hydraulic audits in a far off steel mill :41 ..,..& it sure is a funny way to spend Christmas
Again I am very interested on the recommended drive ratio for your Y2DR + DQ...& please come back with your initial comments or thoughts of your Y2DR ......................Derek :beer
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mmmm .back in Wollongong PD's & need a holiday so today I.....
1. cut the Y2DR lubricator line in 1/2
2. filed a few bits.... :hammer ....
3. added an o-ring flange set ...courtesy from Winfried
4. added the new Winfried lubricator....but just for dummy snaps :squareone .....Derek
PS...interestingly.....the M2 hex head screws on the original Saito build have the identical M3 AF or 'SW' of the bolts produced by Winfried for the flanges...........
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I've always like the look of the Saito engine Derek, but the $64000 dollar question is, will Decoy actually see the water this time when the steamplant is fitted? :hehe
It must be over 10 years since you first started the model!
Regards
Eddy
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Hi PD's :terrific....& yes Eddy it is 10 years & 10 months since my project commenced :crash
Must not rush these things....but I have had the pleasure of logging on to PD's each day for some 4,000 [four thousand] days in the process :c017 ........Derek
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Derek, the flange looks good, but what is its purpose?
Since you asked about driving ratio for the Y2DR Saito: use direct drive, it has enough torque and it will use up less steam.
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kno3.....mmmmmmmm
1. I did not like the angle of the original steam entry tube going down hill between each of the cylinders....
2. so decided to alter or square it up :P
3. with the two fixed points between the cylinder ports, the only way was to cut the tube.....attempt to decrease the tube bend radius to the STDB cylinder & the rejoin the 4 mm OD tube
4. I also wanted to get a new Niggle quartz tubed lubricator with the bottom mounted discharge needle valve so decided to order 16/4/2.2 flanges from Winfried but with VITON o-rings & not gaskets
5. my order from Winfried arrived & whilst I ordered 16/4/2.2.... :'( I also added.../5 which is five bolt....my fault...as my preference was for /4...four bolt
6. I also can use approx three more [5/32"] 4 mm tube connections for water & steam so thought the flange sets look a little more authentic & they are as cost competative as the conventional union+cone+nut connections etc
7. The quality of the components from Winfried is again excellent ;D .....Derek
PS...attachment is looking from stern FWD on the Y2DR ....I have achieved the squarness of the 4 mm steam entry tube
PPS.....the flange set is not soldered yet so is not truely square........ :azn:
PPPS....yes I have taken your earlier suggestion on board.....& the Y2DR will be direct drive :blank:
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Hi PD's......I posted the following note to Crewe Engineering..... :crash........ I will keep you posted.... :goodnews ....Derek :beer
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
From: Derek Warner [mailto:dlwarner@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2011 12:32 PM
To: 'John Moore'; bogster@.....
Subject: Extra Bits for OZ
Hi John… I hope this note finds you & the family well….
I have managed to acquire a twenty year old [never used] Saito Y2DY horizontal paddler engine ….from all reports on Paddleducks & Mayhem the Saito quality is great but am not impressed with a few things namely the steam inlet & outlet tubing bends
Question 1…..is it possible to produce a straight brass tube 7.5 OD x 6.0 ID x approx 75 mm long?
If the answer is yes……..I would like to order
One x 7.5 OD x 6.0 ID straight standpipe x approx 75 mm long
One x 7.5 OD x 6.0 ID straight standpipe x approx 65 mm long
Four x 4.0 OD x 2.0 ID stand pipes approx 20 mm long with a 6 OD x 2.5 wide sealing ring including the 30 degree angular face
Four x 9.0 OD x 7.5 ID x 8 wide reinforcement rings
Two x 9.0 OD x 6.0 ID x 2.0 wide spigoted flange width solder caps
Two x 9.0 OD x 7.5 ID x 2.0 wide flange rings
If the answer to Question 1 = YES I will knock up a few sketches ……………….Derek
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Hi PD's, Derek,
I still have not started the Delta Queen and have not gotten to the dimensions that you are interested in :sorry. I am totally bogged down with the fireboat getting all the animation to work. :c002 My latest problem was a faulty Robbe RX which kept me busy trying to solve :thinking. I am now just about finished.
I am watching with great interest your mods to the Y2DR. Would you recommend that I do the same?
I hope the Smiley's work. I have a devil of a time trying to get them in. :-[
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Hullo PD's....just a few more days to our national Australia day :beer where we give humble thanks to our great land full of fires one day & floods the next :kiss1
ir3.....
1. the only reason I propose to modify :hammer the Y2DR steam inlet & outlet tubing bends...is that they wil be on full view & the originals look poor :oops
2. every image available on the WEB of a Y2DR displays the original lubricator as bent off axis [bad design packaging] so this started the ball rolling :shoot ...the addition of the quartz tubed Niggle lubrication is the best insurance I could use considering the cost of the engine...you don't need to guess the water/oil balance remaining...you just see it :clap
3. having said all of this, if your DQ build does not have an exposed engine I would not bother with the inlet & outlet tubing mods......Derek
PS...yes I am sure the similies do help :41
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Derek, the paddler engine you bought is still listed on the website and I am seriously tempted to order one also if they still have one in stock. It is a toss up between the paddler engine and one of the vertical twins they have listed. Do you know what the difference is between the two different twins on that site? I knew Saito did slide valve and and piston valve vertical twins but these are both slide valve, both 12mm x 12mm but with different looking reversing gear. Any ideas on which models they are? The website does not list model numbers. Thanks, Ian.
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The Saito twins have different stroke. The T2DR has 12 mm and the T2DR-L 20 mm. The L seems to stand for long stroke.
You can find this info here on the Saito website http://www.saito-mfg.com/steamengine.htm
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Thanks for the link Kno but I could not get it to load properly so I could not read the figures. What I could see on that site is a listing for the T2DR and the T2DR - L as you say but there is also listed a T2GR and this is what I was seeking information about. Some years ago I also owned a T2 which had piston valves not slide valves but still was not set up with reversing gear. Hopefully somebody will let us know what the difference is between the "D" and the "G" models. I have emailed the website in Australia too so I will post their reply when I get it. Cheers, Ian.
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Ian, the T2GR is 20mm bore and 20mm stroke.....
A photo is attached below....
Regards
Eddy
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Yes that's the one. Much larger than the other two and would probably need a very powerful boiler.
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Thanks for that Eddie. The website had the wrong info, listing it as 12mm by 12mm, the same as the other two. Interstingly, since I started enquiring it has been removed from their listings. Regards, Ian.
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Hi PD's....and as kiwimodeller asks......
Derek, the paddler engine you bought is still listed on the website and I am seriously tempted to order one
:sorry Ian...you may have noticed.... but I had been out of intenet coverage :breakcomp for two weeks..........
I see kno3 & Eddy have resolved your dimensional questions.........
As ir3 noted yesterday. :c002 ...dealing with SAITO importers is very difficult, however I suspect it is the communication link back to the manufactuer that is the root cause of all :41 frustration
Did you discuss a house re-mortage :ranting with you bank manager to secure a beloved :kiss1 SAITO engine? .......
Derek
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Hi Derek, your absense had been noted, half the forums on the net came close to closing down! The website I was looking at was R C Headquarters in Werribee, Vic (http://www.rcheadquarters.com.au/) . I have not done anything about another engine yet , still sorting out what I am going to go ahead with first but I thought their price of Aus$1170 for the 12mm x 20mm paddler horizontal engine was comparable with the price of similar engines in Europe. The T2Dr is listed at Aus$810, the three cyl engine at Aus$1260 and the T2GR at Aus$1440. They did eventually come back to me and admit that there were errors in the specs but they did not give a delivery time which is one of the reasons I hesitate to order. Cheers, Ian.
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Hi PD's..... :shhh ....but is Ian that has a funny sence of humour ..as it was I who was the lost one for a few weeks :ranting
Yes it was RC Headquarters in Werribee, Vic ...that I luckly found & purchased the Y2DR......from 20 year old stock
The cost quoted to you for 2011 for the Y2DR is identical to my 2010 purchase....
Good luck :towel ....Derek
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Hi PD's..... :whistle..... a small modification in insulating the cylinders on the Y2DR.......
So now the engine lagging matches the lagging on the boiler...the condenser & the gas tank...same timber plank batch...same colour stain.....I am OK with the Cabot's Satin polyurethane spray on the engine covers today......
So will treat the other components :hammer with the same spray .....even possibly tomorrow..... :porkies ....
Mr Saito really designed the porting & cylinder covers with such finesse that after modification with the wooden lagging attached to the brass cylinder covers...... :hammer you must orientate the M2 hex head screws retaining the cover so that the 3.0 mm AF head is @ 45 degrees to the axis 8.0 mm AF head of the pressure port fitting otherwise they foul during tightning of the pressure port fittings ..... :ranting ....
Thank goodness that the wooden lagging is compressible ......Derek :beer
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Very nice work Derek. The engine looks great with the wooden cladding. How did you fasten it? Glued?
Two narrow brass bands over the wood should look good, you already have the screws to fasten them at the ends.
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Hi PD's......I tried K&S @ the model shop for brass strip kno3 ....I need 3.0 mm wide & then have to drill 2.0 mm for the M2 hex head bolts.....but it appears that 1/4" wide strip is the smallest imported into OZ.......so I will have to think more
Oh ...yes I had to split the 5 mm wide planks in two where they rounded the covers.... & standard ZAP CA was used
I also had great difficuilty with the very inside wooden corners chipping away when drilling for the M2 holes.....I ended up using CARBOG filler & stained it after sanding.....you cannot see it as the are under the M2 round washers .......Derek
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Hi PD's...& here kno3 is the JMC engine lagging I copied ...it has the brass bands but with the engine of different construction :hammer......the securing & placement of the bands is easier.......
There are surprisingly very few images on the .NET of model marine steam engines with such cylinder lagging....Derek
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Derek, you have one beautiful engine combo there, but one day your just going to have to put it into a boat, preferably a paddler.
Well done on the lagging
cheers
kiwi
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Thanks Kiwi....I have acknowledged this Y2DR engine installation will be a retirement project :nahnah ....it may be in the gutted out 1:24 scale hull of PS Decoy renamed as something else or a new 1:24 scale Oscar W which I have the Float a Boat plans to build & get it correct first time round :porkies
I have also acknowledged :c002 building on my own based Decoy Drawings [December 2000] was not a good idea :41 .....Derek
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Derek, you don't need to buy any brass strip. Just take the old brass cylinder covers, they have the screw holes already drilled. Mark the necessary widths on them and then cut 2 strips from each using metal shears.
And then get to building that boat, it's been years since you're tinkering with this steam plant, you'll end up ruining it :evil
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Is ok Derek, just having a bit of fun ;D at your expense. I'm not much faster than you in building my paddler. But your ahead, as you have your power plant :16 I'm a little green with envy re your saito, very nicely done.
Had planed on having started ps Koheroa by now, but having Kiwimodeller (Ian) wanting a fibre-glass hull of ps Manuwai to install his steam plant into means I may be now be building a Waikato version in parallel with him.Mine will be electric in a scale depth hull though, while Ian's is deepened to give extra displacement for the steam plant. Hopefully a build thread later in the year.
cheers
kiwi
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Hi PD's........I see that the Saito building WEB page :whistle is now Y2011 & up to date
The link below will take you to Korea for a Saito steam symposium :spam
Unfortunately the Y2011 site offers little new information for marine model steam..... :ranting .....Derek
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsaito%2Bmodel%2Bsteam%2Bengines%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1Q1GGLD_enAU366AU366&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&u=http://www.saito-mfg.com/top.htm&usg=ALkJrhj8K1q5hTk7KG0HY2cLIJFUUPS8Cw
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Derek I have a Saito 4cyl Vee engine, no longer in production. I inherited it from a sailing mate who recently passed away. It powers a 30 inch oregon sandwich built coastal trader. I don't know what the seals are made of. This runs well and I'm not game to touch it.
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Hullo Peter..........I am sure many would be interested in a few photogrphs of this Saito 4cyl Vee engine ........ :shhh ...I have never seen an example........ :beer ....Derek
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Derek,
I will get some photos soon, I am taking things very slowly at present and last week was the first time I have been out sailing for over 8 months, as I am now getting over a triple bypass, and naturally the first model I got back with was a steam powered one.
Peter W
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OK Peter...I knew you were away from PD's for quite a while but did not realise why........ :-X
I know all PD members wish you & your new valving a continued speedy recovery & continuance with modeling paddlers.......our best regards .........Derek 8)
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here is the latest pricelist(15 aug 2011) from www.hobbyheadquarters.com.au
saito T1 steam upright 1cyl.----$245.00 aud------saito1B1 engine/boiler/burner T1+B1--$439.95 aud
" T2DR steam upright 2cyl.---$1,049.00 aud-----saito T2GR steam upright 2 cyl. long stroke --$1,659.00 aud
" T3DR steam upright 3 cyl.---$1,375.00 aud----saito TS3R steam 3 cyl. radial---$635.00 aud
" TY2DR steam sidemount 2 cyl.--$1,299.00 aud
saitoXB1 boiler/burner (1 unit)---$240.00aud---------saito XB2B burner only(to suit B2F)--$245.00aud
" XB2F boiler and burner--$885.00aud ---------saito XB2G boiler and burner $1,290.00 aud
" XB3 boiler and burner--$880.00 aud ----------saito XBT1 boiler and burner $$599.00aud
I had no luck with the hobby shops listed as saito dealers, two said "they'd e mail me , one told me to ring hobby hq and find out myself!
another said"call you back in 15 minutes"HAH!--I'm still waiting---finally e mailed hobby hq, had a reply within ten minutes with the current prices
BUT! as the wholesale distributors they would prefer the customer to buy from their retail hobby outlets, failing any action from the retail dealers saito products can be ordered directly through hobby hq, they require 50% deposit and a six to eight week lead time.
I,ve always wanted a saito engine and boiler unit but with the dis interest of the local hobby shops and considering the costs, I,ll buy my boilers from maccsteam in the uk. and looking at buying a new mini lathe to build my own engines.
Cheers Col.
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Hi PD's....& yes sinxalot ...the marketing of the Saito steam model product world wide is :ranting & :41
I wouldn't be too concerned with Saito boilers are they are also 20 years in past design :nono
Your consideration of a Macsteam boiler sounds a good idea....from all reports on many WEB sites...they are a quality product at a comparible price to other offerings of lessor quality
:coffee ....I wish you luck with your 'new mini lathe to build your own engines'
Derek :hammer
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Are Saito boilers still made of brass?This does not seem to be the ideal material.Why are they not using copper? My Saito boilers is of course Brass.The burner developed a small pinhole since silver soidered up.I do wonder about internal corrosion in the boiler.The decision ive made is to replace the boiler with a modern gas fired one.John.
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Yes John......one of our former members ...Sandy from ACS in Scotland alerted the group of the effects of steam leaching out the zinc molecules from the brass shell & hence the issue faced with pin holes etc
Saito boiler design is 20 years old & yes they still persist in alchol firing :ranting .......Derek
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Are Saito boilers still made of brass?This does not seem to be the ideal material.Why are they not using copper? My Saito boilers is of course Brass.The burner developed a small pinhole since silver soidered up.I do wonder about internal corrosion in the boiler.The decision ive made is to replace the boiler with a modern gas fired one.John.
John check out Mike Abbott's web site at www.maccsteam.com he builds excellent copper boilers for loco.and marine use,I have an order in now for a three and a half inch horizontal marine boiler ,and with all accessories/postage etc. still $150.00aud cheaper than anything I can buy here in oz.
Cheers Col
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Hi PD's........ :whistle ...yes I know I am slow..... :sorry
Needed to elevate the engine 50 mm up off the engine room floor plate [common plate with the boiler & ancillaries] I wanted to replacate a neoclassical look..... but could not find any suitable scale lamposts ........ :41 ...so ended up with a few odds & sods.......as below.........
Everything is held together with M3 stainless fastners of varying types screwed into M3 brass hex posts & finally covered with 1/4"OD brass tube........
The engine big-end M3 bolts have also been replaced......... :hammer ........Derek
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It looks kind of weird like this. Why don't you place the engine diagonally, as it would be on a full size boat?
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....Hi PD's........ :whistle
After finally modifying those problematic SAITO 4.06 mm OD steam tube sizes & funny sized thread form fittings to 5/32"OD tube size..........I though it was time to re-read the achieves from Mick & Jerry C [from Model Mayhem] on their methods of steam tube lagging
I was pleased with the soldering results as it is the first time I have used Cup Alloys low temperature silver solder
However I was using Chinese "Tipex" and the result was disastrous >>:-( <:( ...so much so this morning I am removing the lagging :hammer & will need to think more............
So...if any PD's have any thoughts on steam tube lagging please offer them........ :c017 .......Derek
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What's disastrous about the result?
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Hi PD's & good to hear from you kno3....... :beer ......the real issue I had was the obnoxious :41 bend radii & closeness to the cylinder captive retaining nuts of the Y2DR engine cylinder head
I have stripped all of the string & TIPEX lagging off & will reconsider other options.........Derek
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Can't comment on the piping/lagging, ssince I don't understandwhat you're trying to achieve.
But what are those 3 pressure gauges for? They do look nice.
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Hi PD's...........kno3
1. The lagging....I will wait until I finish all tubing ...should be this week I hope & the resolve the lagging....possibly just cotton string & a few coats of whitish flat paint
2. The 3 gauges..... they each sense the same pressure at the cylinders....but being different sizes & pressure ranges I expect to see varying pressure fluctuations....& not just a semi constant boiler pressure.......most paddle engines [if not all OZ paddlers] had 2 x pressure gauges & 1 x vacuum gauge ....so with the engine being visible I thought I would just copy the visual aspect.....
U syphons have been installed & one isolation valve .
4. For the past year or so I had been concerned that the Niggle lubricator would not be adequately supported by the #22 gauge 5/32" OD tube..........[75 mm on the inlet & 125 mm on the outlet]....so asked Winfried if he could produce over length 2.5mm diameter tie rods........at the time he was too busy so yesterday soldered M5 AF hexagon brass extensions which are internally tapped M3 .....all other components are to be secured with M3 stainless screws from under the base.....Derek
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The fresh steam pipework looks very nice, but imho it is very long and will be prone to heat losses. It is advisable to make the shortest possible pipe connection between boiler and engine.
The type of engine you're using was installed inclined in paddle steamers, with the cylinders placed lower than the crankshaft. If your steam plant will be visible, you might want to consider this. It should also save a bit of space.
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Thanks kno3......I do appreciate critical questioning :nono.....as this is my first steam installation
I am sort of stuck between the rock & the proverbial here......with the proposed installation into a new hull of PS Adelaide @ 1:20.......I find
1. The engine cylinders on Adelaide were in the horizontal plane with the engine crankshaft closest to the boiler chimney
2. For me to achieve a similar scaled installation dictates that a live steam run of 215 linear mm [which include the 42 mm for the lubricator] from the discharge isolation valve on top of the boiler to the inlet of the steam regulator just underneath the steam inlet port tube on the engine
3. I do understand the need to minimise condensation in the live steam line & hence my removal of the initial steam lagging until I can better understand a method of providing functional lagging over just the visual string wraps
4. I have looked at many French model vessel steam WEB sites and found many examples of similar sized horizontal boilers with lagged live steam lines estimated at greater than 200 mm
Naturally if any PD has any comments.......please let them be known.......
I will post this same massage on Model Mayhem.........there are some very experienced steamers there...& as you know some :shhh who are critically critical ......... Derek
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From our archives, I also found a posting by member Andy of his Diessen build from October 2009 which depicts greater than 200 mm of live steam lagged tubing......I will send a PM to Andy asking about this ....Derek
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Hi Derek,
Beautiful engine/ boiler you have there, but may I ask, when do you intend starting on ps Adelaide to put it into.
And yes, I'm aware of the previous issues you have had with hulls.
At 1/20th she should be a most impressive paddler on the water.
I lived in S.A. for some time and spent many a relaxing weekend on the river, even up as far as Echuca.
Will continue to follow your progress
cheers
kiwi 8)
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Hi PD's.......& hullo kiwi.......yes I know my vessel building progress over the years [13 of them] has been slow to say the least :a102......
I have recently purchased the Float a Boat plans for PS Adelaide @1050 mm overall length & had the plans increased by 20% to approx. 1260 mm overall :thinking that the reason for this was to increase the floatation to enable to 6 kg of boiler & engine components to float
In retrospect, the silliest thing I did was draw my own paddler plans in the year 2000 based on two 2"x2" images from Ships of the Australian Rivers ........just CRAZY :41 ...however I can only blame myself for that
I can make no promises other than that I have recently purchased a Proxxon FKSE baby table saw & a few metres of Tassie oak & Canadian cedar.....I have also started a material listing as attached........Derek :beer
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Hi Derek,
Its all part of life's experiences, all good.
"He who never made a mistake, never learned anything."
I'm sure you will be one very proud man, when you see your creation on the water for the first time, whenever that may be.
No rush, work at a pace you are comfortable with, and enjoy the journey.
cheers
kiwi
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Hi Derek,
It looks to me that the fresh steam pipe comes from the boiler down to the regulator valve, then goes under the engine to a second valve and back to the engine, parallel to the pipe holding the gauges?
I just thought your steam pipe could be much shorter in the current set up if you make it go directly from the boiler to the engine, without going under the engine and back etc.
At least that's my approach when building steam plants, to use the shortest practical route.
But you can of course make it any way you think it looks best. it's just that all those valves, pipes and gauges on the fresh steam route will have great heat losses, and it will be a challenge to insulate them all.
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Thanks kno3........I received a PM from Andy.......& he also noted wet steam with the insulated long steam line.....so, considering this & your comments I have three options
1. Do nothing & test the system
2. Blank the Tee fitting that leads to the gauge isolation valve block >>>> the 3 gauges>>>> this line is then supported only on the vertical riser to the engine port, so with this the gauges would still be seen but not functional....
I take your point "it's just that all those valves, pipes and gauges on the fresh steam route will have great heat losses, and it will be a challenge to insulate them all"
3. Reverse the engine inlet tube from port to stdb........[this reduces approx. 85 mm of steam inlet tube length :bravo ], replace the Tee fitting with an Elbow fitting & install the 1" gauge only in the modified/existing vertical riser to the engine port....this would display steam pressure after the regulator to the engine
3b. Install a second 3/4" gauge somewhere after the lubricator poking up from the engine ...this would display boiler steam pressure
3c. Install the 1/2" gauge somewhere after the lubricator poking up from the engine .........
3d. Insulate the individual tube to gauge runs after the individual syphon's
I have spent most of last night thinking & consider option's 3a. to 3d. to be the far more logical ....after all I will not see all of the 3 gauges when the vessel is in the water and the potential to minimise condensation is greatly improved.....thanks for your questioning comments :beer
Here is a mockup of the reversed steam inlet tube positioning ....Derek
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Seems better this way. Put one gauge on the boiler and one near the engine, to highlight the differences in pressure.
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Hi PD's........The 1:20 scale copper smiths have been working on night shift & ripped the 3 gauges, isolation valve block & tube work out :nono for fear of being a condensation issue
They have been replaced with a single gauge & minimal fittings which should be easier to lag/insulate..........
Gerald....the reason I removed the initial lagging was simply that it was a botched application.......very untidy at each end :41 .......I think I have a fix for this now.......Derek
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A test under steam is due now.
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Guys.....I know the progress is slow in Wollongong :shhh ....but I have an issue that has been bugging me for a few days :41
1. I need to build a variation of the first image for the reversal mechanism of the Saito Y2DR engine
2. The issue is that the horizontal bar only moves 15 mm, but is 135 mm above the engine base, so I need to support this 1/8"diameter vertical brass rod in all planes ..ie., N>S + E>W :squareone
3. I had considered a strongback between the HP round flange between each cylinder back to the 1/8"vertical......but this is OK for [<> or ><] one plane only
4. The next thought was a fabricated triangular strongback between the M2 bolts of each cylinder endcap back to the 1/8"vertical
5. On thought dismissed was 4 x tensioned tie wires back to the base plate...... :oops
Not sure......Derek....... :beer
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Derek,
If you extended the vertical down some, and had inserted into the deck a sleeve of the appropriate diameter, then you wouldn't need any support to the top. The sleeve being bonded into the deck etc, and the flange screws holding the whole to the deck, once the post slid into place in the sleeve.
Just a thought
cheers
vnkiwi ;)
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Thanks VNK........
1. The 1/8"diameter x 135 high vertical rod is supported in a 16 diameter 4 bolt flange which is to be bolted down to the 1/8" thick aluminium base plate
2. The horizontal bar element between the reversing quadrant & the vertical will also be approx. 135 mm long
3. I plan to install the reversing servo in the cabin space just FWD of the STDB paddlebox .....the axis of this will be only some 40 mm above deck level
4. I am not concerned with any of the geometry of the arrangement...... :goodnews
But just the deflection of the top of the 135 tall 1/8" diameter rod........... :shoot .............
I am about to go upstairs ...to watch R1 of Clipsal V8 supercars............do you have it live?....as there are a few good NZ drivers in participation........ Derek :beer
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:shhh...unashamedly...& rather reinvent the wheel....... :whistle I have copied the original concept from a French model builder
1. the first version was 3.12mm diameter a 135 mm high & even with the supporting flanges it twisted
2. the final version is still 3.12mm diameter brass round core x 135 mm high, but with 6.4mm brass tube soldered to the flange hubs x 69mm high...then a 3.96mm diameter tube extending upwards
3. there is also an additional 2.5mm support leg @ 45 degrees to the right angled motion change of direction
End result is a very stable support structure.................Derek
PS....the horizontal control shaft is near perfectly level when moved to the extremities in either direction....just an optical illusion here :breakcomp
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Derek,
Very elegant solution
You know your going to have to make a start on the hull sometime soon, don't you.
Or have you already made a start without informing us.
Assuming the rest of the boat will be to the same standard of workmanship as your engine, this is going to be one awesome model.
take care
vnkiwi
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Thanks VNK.........but talk about :shoot
Here is that additional 2.5mm support leg @ 45 degrees to the right angled motion change of direction :beer
Derek
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....a lovely member [Stuart Badger] :respect now looking down from PD heaven many years ago suggested that we treat each individual piece in a build as a model in itself...I think they were very wise words......
So this morning I found three M3x0.5P Grade 304 acorn nuts :hehe........
1. the first went to lock the reversing gear vertical shaft....& that was OK....... :crash
2. the second two were intended to replace the M3x0.5P Grade 304 HH nuts which retain the front end of the engine which I thought was pretty simple :nono
But :ranting....the new 1:20 scale Irish engine builders wanted safety tags :nahnah to ensure H&S was being complied with ...so after a meeting :gathering all safety requirements were met.....
Mr SAITO uses these same M3x0.5P acorn nuts in his vertical builds.......so I just copied.......Derek..... :beer
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Evening PD's...after Easter & our ANZAC day..... :beer
One issue that had been concerning me was that of boiler make up water :nono
1. first thought was ....two electric driven pumps :shoot
2. second thought ....after a few months :thinking....one electric as a secondary or standby, with the primary being steam axel driven...... :goodluck
So here we go........amazingly, a year 2013 Microcosm piston pump appears to mount perfectly in to a year 1960 design Saito Y2DR engine base :terrific
In reality.......@ approx. 100 RPM on the shaft & 97 RPM on the auxiliary should just about be OK :shhh.......Derek
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Nicely done, Derek.
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Hi, looks like you've found a good placement for the engine driven pump.
What bore and stroke does the axle mounted pump have?
And what diameter axle does it fit on?
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Hi PD's......kno3.........here is a link to the boiler feed pump
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Microcosm-M5-Live-Steam-boiler-feed-pump-Twin-Cylinder-Steam-Engine-/151198790945?pt=AU_Toys_Hobbies_Powered_Toys&hash=item2334267521
It is 5 mm bore x short stroke of 6mm....the Saito paddle shaft is 4.0 mm OD....the Microcosm pump eccentric hub is also to suit 4.0 mm....
I found it amazing that the only installation requirement was to drill & tap two M2 holes for the pump mounting bracket back to the underside of the Y2DR engine frame
With the electric drive auxiliary I have added an outboard 4.0 mm ZZ ball bearing in a plummer block to assist with alignment/loading
Whilst each pump has in-build check valves, I will need reposition an in-line check valve between the pumps as the axel driven pump must have a bypass valve installed.....
The eccentric strap & the eccentric disk appear to be of the same [brass/bronze] material...however with an adequate level of lubrication all should be OK
I will solder that #22 bullet casing shell onto the eccentric strap as an oil can ....being of similar size to that as fitted to the Y2DR bearing blocks ........Derek
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:whistle .... just a few more images from today......
One of the issues I had was the requirement for securing, then a quick release method of removing the gas tank without :ranting... for the refilling
So after many many sleepless nights I used the two 16mm diameter hand wheels from Winfried Niggle as extension thumb & forefinger bolts....... [re-tapped to M3 from M2.5]
On the discharge side of the tank gas line I also have the knurled nut to facilitate a tool free tank removal for refilling....... :crash
Derek :beer
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Great solution for tank removal :D
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Hi Derek, I was wondering if you have progressed with your paddle-wheel steamer any further?
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Regret ot a lot of progress kno3........[I think I have the honour of the slowest build in the history of PD's]
1. installed a Microcosm eccentric drive auxiliary boiler water makeup pump 12 volt [70 RPM] ... & it works well against the boiler pressure of 3 Bar :goodnews
2. installed a second Microcosm eccentric drive paddle shaft driven pump for the primary boiler water makeup........in doing this I needed to rotated the pump body axis 90 degrees & the design did not like the change on orientation & the internal check valves would not seat :darn....so due to physical constraints, disappointingly I could not install it in the preferred orientation with paddle shaft drive so have converted and reinstalled this as a second 12 volt [70 RPM] pump
3. installed a Microcosm manual hand pump, in addition to two Winfried Niggle boiler water in line check valves. This pump was intended to enable achieving my boiler tests and not intended for general use
4. have passed my Australian boiler hydrostatic test OK with the manual pump :bravo
I am suitably impressed with the quality of the Microcosm pump units
The additional tube work now looks like squarely placed spaghetti, however I can cope with this OK
Currently progressing with the gas regulator to modulate gas flow to boiler pressure setting..........
Hope this note finds you well & happy with your buildings ........Derek :beer
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Hello Derek, your steam plant looks most impressive with that extensive array of brass pipework. I hope you can remember what each valve is meant for when running it :-)
By the way, is the oiler on the pump eccentric made from a small calibre cartridge?
Regarding the pump not working in another position due to check valves not seating: you could easily install some small springs inside to help the valves stay in position. Ordinary springs from pens might work, as I think they aren't rusting.
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Yes kno3...you picked it in one :whistle
The oiler tube for the Microcosm pump is in fact a spent #22 shell casing...it was of near identical diameter to the original Saito tubes and as such appeared to be more suitable to containing some cotton & a volume of oil over the original Microcosm oil drilling
Both pumps now have a shortened #22 spent shell casing as oiler tubes
To my knowledge, all alternate manufacture of model boiler feed piston pumps have the piston axis in the relative horizontal plane and the pump body with the ball. springs & checks in the true vertical plane....so the decay I encountered was of my doing by orienting the pump by 90 degrees......the decay issue was eliminated immediately on reinstating the pump to the recommended orientation
To the credit of Jin from Microcosm, he sent over a complete set of spare for all pumps when hearing of the issue I was experiencing......[I now have a lifetimes set of spared]...excellent service :no1b
Derek
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Grade 460 steam oil may look like pea soup, but in the morning sunlight, in the engine room changes it to translucent gold... :whistle.......... Derek
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I'm still amazed at your beautiful pipework. Too bad you're not pressing on with the build.
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Hey Derek, no news?
By the way, why did you mount a pressure gauge on the lubricator?
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Hullo Calin......nice to hear from you...hope you are well :beer
The pressure gauge in the lubricator is to confirm to the scale engine/boiler room crew that forced pressure lubrication is available for the engine :hehe
Have been working on the wheels...an old 1/3 finished set...manufactured new shafts other parts.......purchased a set of paddle blade cast brass supports from Manfred at Elde-Modellbau ...... M2 & M3 Hex Head brass bolts from KNUPFER & assembling with a swag of Chinese brass serrated nuts
Derek
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Your paddlewheels are very detailed, nice!
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More completed on the wheel sets :hammer ......
72 x M3 brass HPGS each end of converted to 1/16" diameter brass tie rods.....56mm long overall
72 x M3 brass insert nuts
144 x M3 brass washers
All assembled OK, however each wheel took a quite a few hours in the lathe to true up each assembly.......the hammering during the riveting process [36 x 1/16" rivets per wheel] created a little distortion of the arms & frames
I am undecided how to complete the final M3 insert nuts locking...will need to talk with Thomas to understand how he completed [grade of Loctite?] this with his Elde-Modellbau wheel set
I am needing to be cautious of the weight...[each wheel now calculated as ~~ 405gm]...so have ordered 36 x D1500-23 KSF e-clips for the actual 1/8" paddle shafts to position and lock against sideways movement [the KSF = bronze material]
So each wheel will comprise brass plate, bronze bolts, nuts & rivets, and Grade 316 main hubs & some M2 SS HPGS....
The 5/32" shafts grade Grade 304, the shaft beatings are 5/32" bore ZZ sealed stainless steel ball races in aluminium plummer blocks
Derek
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Very nice Derek. :bravo :clap :bravo
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: D Good morning;
Beautiful work Derek: clap
Damage to the slight deformation of the sets: sobbing
cordially
François (pif in another place)
:D Bien l'bonjour ;
Magnifique travail Derek :clap
Dommage pour la légère déformation des ensembles :sobbing
Cordialement
François ( pif dans un autre lieu )
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Hullo and thankyou François........
Considering the amount of :hammer required, I am happy with the squareness and parallelism of the 1/16" diameter tie rods
I am thinking of cutting some wooden spacers of identical length to use as jig spacers when I do the final tighten up of all of the 144 x M3 nuts prior to the Loctite process
Derek
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I have 2 questions for the Saito steam engine owner out there. I have a local that has a t2 for sale and i am curious if the torque figures for this and the more modern T2dr similar or is the older t2 considerably weaker? Also, do any of you saito owner also happens to own a tvr1a that is the other engine that I am debating if I should get over the Saito
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Welcome to the Saito steam world..............[or limited documentation]
The Saito T2 engine is advertised as a 12 x 12 bore & stroke engine, designed for 2 Bar steam WP
Saito also produce a T2L which is a 12 x 20 bore & stroke also designed for 2 Bar stean pressure........
The former has 4 - M2 Brass bolts securing the valve plates
The later has 6 - M2 Brass bolts securing the valve plates
Specification, including torque figures, is available on the original Saito WEB page........
Regrettably, I have seen Saito T2 engines advertised as 20 mm stroke.......when if fact they were 12mm......
Read on & any further questions, don't hesitate to come back.........[I have no experience with the TRV1A engine]
Derek
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I have 2 questions for the Saito steam engine owner out there. I have a local that has a t2 for sale and i am curious if the torque figures for this and the more modern T2dr similar or is the older t2 considerably weaker? Also, do any of you saito owner also happens to own a tvr1a that is the other engine that I am debating if I should get over the Saito
Hello, Saito T2 is a piston valve twin steam engine, recognizable by its green painted cylinders. It is no longer being made. The current model is the Saito T2DR, which is a slide valve twin engine. Both engines have identical bore and stroke, 12 mm and parts such as the crankshaft and the reversing gear seem identical too.
I don't think there's is a great difference in power, because of the identical bore and stroke.
I own all 3 engines you are asking about (Saito T2, T2DR and Graham TVR1A). All three are good, but in my opinion the T2DR is the nicest of all, because it looks very scale, it is made with very fine castings for the cylinders. The Saito engines run like swiss watches. The Graham, if it was a kit, the running qualitiss depend on the skill of the person who assembled it, but usually they run well too.
So it really is a matter of price and taste.
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Wow, speedy response nice. Is there a noticeable torque difference between the Graham and the Saito? I like the compact size and low weight of the Graham but if the power difference between the two is big enough I may have to go with the Saito. This will be powering a land vehicle where high rpm and torque are both kinda needed :azn: It will definitely be a runner no shelf queen.
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Hi PD's......kno3.........here is a link to the boiler feed pump
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Microcosm-M5-Live-Steam-boiler-feed-pump-Twin-Cylinder-Steam-Engine-/151198790945?pt=AU_Toys_Hobbies_Powered_Toys&hash=item2334267521
It is 5 mm bore x short stroke of 6mm....the Saito paddle shaft is 4.0 mm OD....the Microcosm pump eccentric hub is also to suit 4.0 mm....
Interesting i finally jump the gun and bought a T2R and currently considering a Microcosm m5 pump to, but still unsure if i should drive it from a an electric motor or from then engine itself don't want to rob to much power from the engine.
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The only real disadvantage I see with driving a boiler water makeup piston pump directly from the engine crank, is that pump displacement is directly proportional to the engine speed
So some use an external needle valve to maintain a preset pump volume that is also set to exceed the boiler relief valve pressure setting
So the upshot of such difficult external needle valve set points, the pump is working to boiler relief valve load and dumping a large quantity of water overboard or back to your boiler water feed tank whenever the engine is running
The disadvantage of electrically driven pump is the need for a servo or switching function for radio control & a need to monitor boiler water levels regularly
So I now have both Microcosm M5 and M8 pumps
** I found the Microcosm electric motor/speed reducer for the M5 very noisy and of questionable quality...Jin offered to replace it FOC, however my postage cost was greater than the purchase cost of a replacement in Australia....have also added an M4 bearing housing for the output shaft **
I have disguised the manual M8 pump body & housing ...it was used to provide my hydrostatic water boiler test, but can be used as a boiler water makeup
Derek
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The only real disadvantage I see with driving a boiler water makeup piston pump directly from the engine crank, is that pump displacement is directly proportional to the engine speed
So some use an external needle valve to maintain a preset pump volume that is also set to exceed the boiler relief valve pressure setting
So the upshot of such difficult external needle valve set points, the pump is working to boiler relief valve load and dumping a large quantity of water overboard or back to your boiler water feed tank whenever the engine is running
The disadvantage of electrically driven pump is the need for a servo or switching function for radio control & a need to monitor boiler water levels regularly
So I now have both Microcosm M5 and M8 pumps
** I found the Microcosm electric motor/speed reducer for the M5 very noisy and of questionable quality...Jin offered to replace it FOC, however my postage cost was greater than the purchase cost of a replacement in Australia....have also added an M4 bearing housing for the output shaft **
Thank you for pointing out the "external needle valve" suggestion, quick question would an adjustment screw work in the situation of an engine-powered feed pump to? Basically screwing the screw in would move the pump closer to the crank lowering the stroke length and also the amount of water it can take up for every rotation of the crank and screwing it out would have the opposite effect? Did you see any noticeable rpm drop with having the engine power the pump directly? Also where in the world did you find bearing 4mm pillow blocks? smallest I could find is 8mm. The last question is what oil do you guys use for your engine I read on another forum that motor oil was ok so I used 5w-30 to do a quick 15 second run on 5psi of compressed air, the engine seems very rev-happy I don't know if this is normal, as this is my first hobby grade steam engine.
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The Microcosm M5 pump has a M4mm diameter output shaft......I have added the M4 shaft diameter s/s ZZ ball race in the pillow block are from.......SPD/Si ...they are from the US, they will supply on-line purchases for the same $ as the Australian Importer who do not necessarily stock the product
I found the loading on the speed reducer driving the pump eccentric was such that the final external bearing support was needed and eliminated pressure stroke eccentric off axis screaming/loading
So the eccentric sheave on the M5 Microsm piston pump is fixed at the machined 5 mm stroke........it is fixed and cannot be adjusted.......I have added a 22 Caliber brass shell case + a Microcosm M3 Plexiglass oiler
The recommended oil for the steam engine via the lubricator must be Steam Oil [Grade 460 appears fine]..it contains synthetic Fatty inclusions that do not breakdown at 100 + degrees C so maintains good lubricity with in the wet steam elements within the engine
Lubrication for external bearing journals etc .......Sewing machine oil [SAE 10?] is also totally acceptable.........whatever, do not :nono use WD40 or RP7 type sprays..........it degrades nitrile elastomers ........
Derek
PS....I am also using some SPD/Si 1/4" shaft size pillow blocks [same housing size] for the proposed paddle shaft drive
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Hullo Jurgen.....I am progressing on very slowly
Could you please confirm [with photographs] of the method of waterproofing or eliminating water from the splash of the wheels from migrating along the paddle shaft into the hull :nono
[understood I could use an 0-ring in a simple housing, however am interested in other options]
I am moving the paddle shaft axis from above the crank axis by 20mm to below the crank axis by 40mm [yes 60 total]
This then elevates the complete steam plant considerably [~~45mm] and so will be far more visible .... I will post a few images in my Saito Engine page
Derek :beer
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So the paddle shaft below the engine is 1/4" OD brass precision rod with the 48 tooth pinion.......the Saito engine crankshaft is 4mm diameter with a 9 tooth pinion
The paddle shaft is now supported in 3 plumber blocks with a 1/4"" ZZ stainless bearing in each [a pair on either side of the 48 tooth pinion], then the 3rd outboard on the opposite side, however all within the footprint of the plant base
The plumber blocks are each supported on a pair of M6 hex brass spacers tapped M3 top & bottom.[25mm long]....so this will provide a stable support [back to the steam plant base frame for the paddle shaft]
The paddle shafts [outboard of the engine] are also the same 1/4" brass bar & will be supported by another plumber block outboard of each wheel......a rigid coupling is planned on each side of the engine plant......
Derek
Oh.....PS....the 3 wise men persons also built a hand cranked anchor winch [along the lines of a Sailing Barge winch].....
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Hi Derek,
Your senior helpers did a nice job on that winch.
I see that you moved the shaft below the engine, but it seems to me that the engine itself was not moved.
You mention that the engine was elevated by 45mm. Would that be a good idea regarding the CG?
Jurgen
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Senior helpers :gathering.....sorry, the one with the long shaggy white hair is actually a woman [of sorts] & she lets the others know it!
I understand 40+20 = 60, however this allows for the paddleshaft to be 45 mm up from the steam plant base... :whistle :shhh ...engine & steam plant to be higher & in full view
Yes certainly of concern is the increased C of G, but I can only check this when the complete steam plant is down in the hull......and lots of splashes in the bath
Derek