Paddleducks
Paddler Modelling => Paddlewheels/Drive Systems => Topic started by: Talisman on September 14, 2009, 04:53:25 AM
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Hi,
Given the time and hassle to create a set of paddles for my current build and my want to make more paddle steamers versus my not wanting to make another set of wheels, i have been exploring various manufacturers to establish the feasibility of making them commercially.
Even if i get this project off the ground i need to establish that there is a market for them and of what design.
So in short i would really appreciate any feedback before going much further.
Many thanks
Kim
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Hi Kim,
Another thing that may be relevant is the number of floats per wheel...I have a set of 1:48 wheels from Waverley Models, I purchased them when they came on the market several years ago.
These wheels have 9 floats, and I personally feel that is to many, and the wheels look to "busy", or cluttered.
I am going to use the rims as a kind of template and make 7 float versions for my "Marchioness of Lorne" model, maybe try plastic or thinner brass or aluminium sheet, I want my wheels as light as possible.
This is not a criticism of the Wav. Models wheels, just personal preference for 7 floats (as the real ship had) and a lighter wheel.
Clark
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Hi Kim,
Another thing that may be relevant is the number of floats per wheel...I have a set of 1:48 wheels from Waverley Models, I purchased them when they came on the market several years ago.
These wheels have 9 floats, and I personally feel that is to many, and the wheels look to "busy", or cluttered.
Yep, I know what you mean. I am thinking of 8 floats per paddle.
I am going to use the rims as a kind of template and make 7 float versions for my "Marchioness of Lorne" model, maybe try plastic or thinner brass or aluminium sheet, I want my wheels as light as possible.
This is not a criticism of the Wav. Models wheels, just personal preference for 7 floats (as the real ship had) and a lighter wheel.
She had rimmed paddles ?? Was going to use my Dad's Jupiter wheels as a template for the rimmed wheels. Probably 0.8 / 1.0mm brass aluminium for them.
Many thanks
Kim
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Hi Kim,
A few comments based on my own experience, no doubt some will disagree, but these are my feelings on the matter....
Scale - Certainly in the UK, 1:32 or 1:48 are the most popular scales to build at.
Rimless or rimmed - If designed carefully, a rimmed wheel can have the outer rim cut off to produce a rimless wheel, saving the cost of manufacturing both types.
Feathering or none feathering - At model sizes feathering makes little if any noticable difference in performance, but a feathering wheel does look good.... A none feathering wheel with dummy feathering mechanism available as an extra would again save costs and complexity.
Cost - There is a lot of wasted material when producing a paddlewheel, so cost is always going to be an issue. An average screw boat with twin props may cost £30 or £40 for two nice cast props, and your never going to compete with that for two paddlewheels! But you do need to keep costs to a minimum or you'll never sell any!
Just my two-penneth worth, so don't shoot me down in flames!
Regards
Eddy
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Hi Kim,
A few comments based on my own experience, no doubt some will disagree, but these are my feelings on the matter....
All comments appreciated - last thing i need to do is invest money in a dead end product - Have you met my wife ;D ;D ;D
Scale - Certainly in the UK, 1:32 or 1:48 are the most popular scales to build at.
OK, noted :)
Rimless or rimmed - If designed carefully, a rimmed wheel can have the outer rim cut off to produce a rimless wheel, saving the cost of manufacturing both types.
True - but my idea is to make paddle wheels that are functional and aesthetically right then i would need to design both styles.
(working on the assumption / brief research that British side wheelers had pretty much similar designs)
This is the question that could give me the edge over all previous suppliers - (or did i miss something??).
If I could produce a set of wheels at an attractive price that were functional and aesthetically correct / pleasing - lightweight and withstand 'pond life' then would people buy them the same way as they buy propellers (to save the hassle or would people (as did) make themself just for the challenge)
Feathering or none feathering - At model sizes feathering makes little if any noticeable difference in performance, but a feathering wheel does look good.... A none feathering wheel with dummy feathering mechanism available as an extra would again save costs and complexity.
Cost - There is a lot of wasted material when producing a paddlewheel, so cost is always going to be an issue. An average screw boat with twin props may cost £30 or £40 for two nice cast props, and your never going to compete with that for two paddlewheels! But you do need to keep costs to a minimum or you'll never sell any!
Just my two-penneth worth, so don't shoot me down in flames!
Regards
Eddy
Eddy i do appreciate your comments - I also understand the cost implications - my recent build if i was to have the components laser cut were in the region of £300 before fixings and at that price i couldn't sell them could i??? :)
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Well - my two pence worth!
Every time I make a set of wheels they are scale ones to suit one particular ship and no other. The present set will have 14 floats - disasterously innefficient, but SCALE. So being absolutely true to scale is number one for me, and if the real vessel had feathering floats then that's what I'd make. BUT, and it's a big but, commercially available wheels, especially for a working model would tempt me.
I have to say that I have often wondered whether it would be possible to produce a set of components in kit form and vary them according to the wheel required. For instance a universal hub to accept 6, 8, 10 or 12 spokes. Spokes of say two patterns in various lengths. Wheel rims of various diameters etc. Then one could vary the contents of the 'kit' to produce many different wheels. Material waste would be minimal because one could use the waste say from the rings to produce spokes or other components.
PVC or ABS would be an ideal material to make the components from and certain components like paddle float arms and trunnions could be standard but one could offer perhaps 3 different paddle float sizes. Once the initial design had been worked out production would, I think be relatively straightforward.
Just some thoughts.
Stuart
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Well - my two pence worth!
Appreciated :)
Every time I make a set of wheels they are scale ones to suit one particular ship and no other. The present set will have 14 floats - disasterously innefficient, but SCALE. So being absolutely true to scale is number one for me, and if the real vessel had feathering floats then that's what I'd make. BUT, and it's a big but, commercially available wheels, especially for a working model would tempt me.
I know what you are saying Stuart and in no way would i want to reduce paddle steamers to the cheap ready to run type kits available. (No offence meant to anybody)
Perhaps if i could produce say a set of rimmed rimless and fixed and a 'generic' paddle tug wheel most of the bases would b covered?
I have to say that I have often wondered whether it would be possible to produce a set of components in kit form and vary them according to the wheel required. For instance a universal hub to accept 6, 8, 10 or 12 spokes. Spokes of say two patterns in various lengths. Wheel rims of various diameters etc. Then one could vary the contents of the 'kit' to produce many different wheels. Material waste would be minimal because one could use the waste say from the rings to produce spokes or other components..
Yep, thinking in a similar way.
PVC or ABS would be an ideal material to make the components from and certain components like paddle float arms and trunnions could be standard but one could offer perhaps 3 different paddle float sizes. Once the initial design had been worked out production would, I think be relatively straightforward..
my personal preference would to be produce in metal. what do others think / find acceptable?
Just some thoughts.
Stuart
Great! Thanks very much for you time and input
Kim
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Kim,
I have to admit that I've thought about producing paddlewheels myself many times, but my own opinion is that it could only be viable if I bought my own laser cutter (expensive!) and wrote off that cost, perhaps by producing other items to make it pay for itself?.
Your never going to sell huge volumes of paddlewheels, even though it's the one item that puts most people off building a paddler!
Having said that, Graupner have sold thousands of their wheels - But at approx 1:40 scale they are too big for some models, and not big enough for others!! Why did they pick that scale? It's beyond me!!
Barry in Oz has produced some great styrene wheels - I know I bought a set from him, and was more than happy with them, but I think even he will admit that demand isn't fantastic. Yes you can make some money with the right product, but your never going to be a millionaire!
I have a paddletug that I'd like to build, and I'd be the first to buy a set of paddlewheels from you if the right ones were available, but I do want to be realistic, and not say that there would be a huge demand when there wouldn't!
Regards
Eddy
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Kim,
I have to admit that I've thought about producing paddlewheels myself many times, but my own opinion is that it could only be viable if I bought my own laser cutter (expensive!) and wrote off that cost, perhaps by producing other items to make it pay for itself?.
I was until very recently the owner of a step four cnc machine. I couldn't justify the cost of replacement cutters to keep the machine :(
Laser cutting does seem to be the way to go but at this stage i can't see the demand justifying the purchase of a machine.
Just got to try and think a little smarter if this project is to grow legs....
Your never going to sell huge volumes of paddlewheels, even though it's the one item that puts most people off building a paddler!.
Totally understand what your saying Eddy and that s the drive to try and produce something affordable.
Having said that, Graupner have sold thousands of their wheels - But at approx 1:40 scale they are too big for some models, and not big enough for others!! Why did they pick that scale? It's beyond me!!!.
And been responsible for many out of scale paddle boxes ;D ;D ;D
Barry in Oz has produced some great styrene wheels - I know I bought a set from him, and was more than happy with them, but I think even he will admit that demand isn't fantastic. Yes you can make some money with the right product, but your never going to be a millionaire!
No intention of stepping on Barry's toes. As for being a millionaire i will keep trying .... lol
I have a paddletug that I'd like to build, and I'd be the first to buy a set of paddlewheels from you if the right ones were available, but I do want to be realistic, and not say that there would be a huge demand when there wouldn't!
I understand the lack of demand and didn't get into the hobby for commercial reasons just spotted a gap in the market and have the time / drive to research filling it.
Thanks Kim
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"I was until very recently the owner of a step four cnc machine. I couldn't justify the cost of replacement cutters to keep the machine" When you are pricing jobs you have to include the price of tooling. I don't think the price for cutters would be much different for CNC than manual equipment.
My thoughts are that the market is such a small specialized one that it would be hard to make any money out of it. If you had a laser cutter and CNC equipment that were doing your main work you might make some change running sets off in slack time.
Regards,
Gerald.
PS When I do a set it will probably be out of ABS plastic or brass.
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I'm sticking my oar in here where I should fear to tread. Over the years there has been quite a bit of success with photo etching/chemical milling and there is an entire aftermarket for model airplane builders and recently model ship builders. I am assuming some are familiar with this process. Fr Prasky the Austrian modeller and engineer wrote an article in Model Shipwright, there are several in the American journal Nautical Research Journal and Brian King from the UK wrote a very good chapter in Modelling Late Victorian Warships on the "wonderfulness" of photo etching. The value lies in the fact that one only needs on set of drawings duplicated n number of times on a sheet of brass via a photo transfer that is made but the chemical miller, and voila. The cost as I understand it is not prohibitive and a sheet of brass could contain several variations and or scales. King also wrote a smaller book on photo etch and another chapter in Advance Ship Modelling. Where laser and cnc require doing one part at a time, etching does an entire sheet in 15 or 20 minutes depending on the thickness of the brass and the speed of the etchant. This is an idea that can certainly be shot down , but you'll need a 12 pounder at least.
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Hi all,
Photo etching is an oft overlooked resource by most modellers, unless interested in very small scale building.
Photo etchers can etch upto at least 1mm, just have to allow for the undercut when doing your artwork, same as you have to allow for the width of the cut for laser work. Also can part-etch designs into the surface at the same time.
Well mentioned greateastern
cheers
kiwi
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I'm sticking my oar in here where I should fear to tread. Over the years there has been quite a bit of success with photo etching/chemical milling and there is an entire aftermarket for model airplane builders and recently model ship builders. I am assuming some are familiar with this process. Fr Prasky the Austrian modeller and engineer wrote an article in Model Shipwright, there are several in the American journal Nautical Research Journal and Brian King from the UK wrote a very good chapter in Modelling Late Victorian Warships on the "wonderfulness" of photo etching. The value lies in the fact that one only needs on set of drawings duplicated n number of times on a sheet of brass via a photo transfer that is made but the chemical miller, and voila. The cost as I understand it is not prohibitive and a sheet of brass could contain several variations and or scales. King also wrote a smaller book on photo etch and another chapter in Advance Ship Modelling. Where laser and cnc require doing one part at a time, etching does an entire sheet in 15 or 20 minutes depending on the thickness of the brass and the speed of the etchant. This is an idea that can certainly be shot down , but you'll need a 12 pounder at least.
Hi i haven't seen the book but etching is top of the reaserch list at the moment. Thanks for the info :)Hi all,
Photo etching is an oft overlooked resource by most modellers, unless interested in very small scale building.
Photo etchers can etch upto at least 1mm, just have to allow for the undercut when doing your artwork, same as you have to allow for the width of the cut for laser work. Also can part-etch designs into the surface at the same time.
Well mentioned greateastern
cheers
kiwi
Yep i have never considered etching until just recently and do see the possibilities in paddle wheel manufacturing so thanks to both of you for confirming my thoughts. :)
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Tom Gorman (UK modeller) in his book Working Scale Model Merchant Ships (Chatham, 1997) lists a few places in the UK that sell etched brass items, and perhaps if there is enough call, might add paddlewheels or do them on special order.
James Lane (display models) 30 The Broadway, Blyth, Northumberland, NE24 2PP tel: 01670 352051
etched brass and nickel silver ladders and stanchions etc in fine scales.
Precision Controls, 3 Chantry Ave, Rideford, Devon EX39 2QW tel: 476820 Fine scale ship fitting in brass and resin.
There are lots of interesting things in Gorman's book even covering davits on the Duchess of Fife. Gorman is a professionall modeller . It is worth a look-see if you haven't had the opportunity.
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Hi,
I have just read through this fascinating thread, and will add some thoughts.
Like you Kim and Eddy I have given thoughts to making paddle wheels, and other componants available, making the hobby pay for itself rather than a true business idea I suppose, but as I have not had opportunity to build anything for a couple of years I have been busy researching and thinking through many ideas rather than putting any of them into practise.
I think to succeed with paddle wheels, research into what people most frequently build might be the best place to start, then aim the product at them. for example, 1:48 scale Waverley's and 1:32 scale Paddle Tugs are probally (I havent done the research on this, only into the specific ships I have been drawing up) amongst the most common paddler models, so, I would consider getting plans of the Waverley's paddles and making a good kit of them, that ship will always be popular, and very similar wheels were used by the other LNER ships so the product would appeal to those building say the Talisman from the Metcalf hull. (This is just an example, when actually adding up numbers others types of ship might be more popular!!)
For me, this appeals more than tryin to make a generic paddle, or range of generic paddles as the real ships wheels were so varied that the generic design would make do for many, but be acurate for only a few. Tugs may well have had a lesser ranger of wheels than the longer distance steamers, so maybe finding out the most common size and number of floats and making a good kit for that would be a good starting place, if it was me considering goin ahead with this, that is the sort of way I would go about my research....
I also strongly think photo-etching is worth serious consideration, I am looking into this just now to get wheels made up for my 1:32 Jeanie Deans, I would look into making available once Im back in production everything I design and make for my own models to the public, not just paddle wheels but hulls and fittings too, seems to me a nice way to build up a range of products you're interested in and have each project you work on pay for itself, or at least have costs paid towards it without having to foot any cost up fron other than those involved in building the model for yourself the first time round. I got this idea a while back when reading a blog of a model warship enthusiast who did exactly this to fund his ever bigger projects!
Wow, that wasn't meant to be an essay, hope it helpful to someone in someway, all the best with the research! cheers 8)
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Hi,
I have just read through this fascinating thread, and will add some thoughts.
Many thanks :)
Like you Kim and Eddy I have given thoughts to making paddle wheels, and other componants available, making the hobby pay for itself rather than a true business idea I suppose, but as I have not had opportunity to build anything for a couple of years I have been busy researching and thinking through many ideas rather than putting any of them into practise.
Unfortunately i believe the taxman take the view that if you produce anything with the intention of selling then it is considered a business :(
I think to succeed with paddle wheels, research into what people most frequently build might be the best place to start, then aim the product at them. for example, 1:48 scale Waverley's and 1:32 scale Paddle Tugs are probally (I havent done the research on this, only into the specific ships I have been drawing up) amongst the most common paddler models, so, I would consider getting plans of the Waverley's paddles and making a good kit of them, that ship will always be popular, and very similar wheels were used by the other LNER ships so the product would appeal to those building say the Talisman from the Metcalf hull. (This is just an example, when actually adding up numbers others types of ship might be more popular!!)
Looking at the allready commercially available hulls then the three styles i am initially considering would be very suitable.
For me, this appeals more than tryin to make a generic paddle, or range of generic paddles as the real ships wheels were so varied that the generic design would make do for many, but be acurate for only a few. Tugs may well have had a lesser ranger of wheels than the longer distance steamers, so maybe finding out the most common size and number of floats and making a good kit for that would be a good starting place, if it was me considering goin ahead with this, that is the sort of way I would go about my research....
My gut feel and based on what i see sailing then most people build tugs, coastal steamers and the majority (although this may be a result of my location / plans available) Clyde steamers??
I also strongly think photo-etching is worth serious consideration, I am looking into this just now to get wheels made up for my 1:32 Jeanie Deans, I would look into making available once Im back in production everything I design and make for my own models to the public, not just paddle wheels but hulls and fittings too, seems to me a nice way to build up a range of products you're interested in and have each project you work on pay for itself, or at least have costs paid towards it without having to foot any cost up fron other than those involved in building the model for yourself the first time round. I got this idea a while back when reading a blog of a model warship enthusiast who did exactly this to fund his ever bigger projects!
Yep my mind is allreaddy wandering onto 'other posibilities' everything i had planned for my cnc machine seems to be adaptable for etching :)
Wow, that wasn't meant to be an essay, hope it helpful to someone in someway, all the best with the research! cheers
Many thanks for taking the time to post
Kim
Attached ideas for the initial 3 desings
1. Paddle tug wheels
2.rimmed wheels
3. rimless wheels
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The beauty of the etching process is that nothing need be for sale and therefore the taxman need not concern himself with your enterprise.. Eveyone just shares their part of the total cost--4 sets of wheels---4 people. Easy. The joy is that the brass con contain 4 different wheels because the drawings come from CAD and can be scaled and modified before the negative is made. The whole sheet of brass can be filled with whatever you draw. ventilators in extra spaces, ladders, benches, rigols, port hole surrounds, lattice work, you name it. Very little goes to waste with some planning. Anything that is needed in multiples. Brian King even does ships boat parts. Brass can also be soldered-glued-- so thicknesses can be made greater than the initial sheet thickness.
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The beauty of the etching process is that nothing need be for sale and therefore the taxman need not concern himself with your enterprise.. Eveyone just shares their part of the total cost--4 sets of wheels---4 people. Easy. The joy is that the brass con contain 4 different wheels because the drawings come from CAD and can be scaled and modified before the negative is made. The whole sheet of brass can be filled with whatever you draw. ventilators in extra spaces, ladders, benches, rigols, port hole surrounds, lattice work, you name it. Very little goes to waste with some planning. Anything that is needed in multiples. Brian King even does ships boat parts. Brass can also be soldered-glued-- so thicknesses can be made greater than the initial sheet thickness.
Excellent points all, further, with such a quick production time, no need to hold products in stock, or spend a lot up front, simply take an order/request and make to order, simple! Etching is becoming more and more appealing all the time....
Thos paddlewheels you have posted photos of Kim look excellent, on the LNER ones it looks like you have got the spokes correctly angled inwards towards the hub and everything? I have drawn mine to do so, but, not yet figured out how to mark the holes on the hub ends of the spokes as not sure how to ensure they are in exactly the right place after bending, what with metal strectchign slightly as its bends etc, ideas anyone?!
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The beauty of the etching process is that nothing need be for sale and therefore the taxman need not concern himself with your enterprise.. Eveyone just shares their part of the total cost--4 sets of wheels---4 people. Easy.
Very good point.
The joy is that the brass con contain 4 different wheels because the drawings come from CAD and can be scaled and modified before the negative is made. The whole sheet of brass can be filled with whatever you draw. ventilators in extra spaces, ladders, benches, rigols, port hole surrounds, lattice work, you name it. Very little goes to waste with some planning. Anything that is needed in multiples. Brian King even does ships boat parts. Brass can also be soldered-glued-- so thicknesses can be made greater than the initial sheet thickness.
Yep i have started doing some drawings and it is like playing Tetris with boat parts :)
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Excellent points all, further, with such a quick production time, no need to hold products in stock, or spend a lot up front, simply take an order/request and make to order, simple! Etching is becoming more and more appealing all the time....
Yep, until recently i thought all parts would need to be cnc cut one way or another. Etching does look like the smart way to go.
Just got to figure a way of accurately moulding a hub assembly now.
Thos paddlewheels you have posted photos of Kim look excellent, on the LNER ones it looks like you have got the spokes correctly angled inwards towards the hub and everything? I have drawn mine to do so, but, not yet figured out how to mark the holes on the hub ends of the spokes as not sure how to ensure they are in exactly the right place after bending, what with metal strectchign slightly as its bends etc, ideas anyone?!
Many thanks, Both the rimmed and un rimmed wheels are bent to shape.
Not sure how my dad did it on the rimmed paddles but i took a slightly less scientific route no doubt. I made the hub slightly bigger than the drawing, bent the 'legs' then drilled the holes on the hub to suite.
Thanks Guys for your thoughts Very helpfull.
Kim
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Just got to figure a way of accurately moulding a hub assembly now.
I intend to cast mine out of white metal, have bought the home casting kit and book on the subject already, make the master out of wood, a mould from the master out of something i cant remember wot, the book will tell me when i need to know, (lego and plaster ring a bell in my mind, book not to hand just now so can't check till later) and then happily cast as many hubs as I want, secure in the knowedge that as the originals were also castings, they will be as realistic as possible! cheap too, we all like that!!!!
Cheers ;D
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Just got to figure a way of accurately moulding a hub assembly now.
I intend to cast mine out of white metal, have bought the home casting kit and book on the subject already, make the master out of wood, a mould from the master out of something i cant remember wot, the book will tell me when i need to know, (lego and plaster ring a bell in my mind, book not to hand just now so can't check till later) and then happily cast as many hubs as I want, secure in the knowedge that as the originals were also castings, they will be as realistic as possible! cheap too, we all like that!!!!
Cheers ;D
Hi i had thought of that method but the weight put me off .
Ant thoughts on a simple but robust / effective way of attaching to the shaft would be good to hear.
Thanks
Kim
Weight
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Hi PD's......... ;)....ancoaster78 posts....... "I intend to cast mine out of white metal & have bought the home casting kit and book on the subject already""
ancoaster78....when we look at the table for 'white metal' as below we see....the lower line brew for 'general purpose work' contains 48.5% [plumbonium] or for us commerners Pb or lead
% Sn % Sb % Cu % Pb Applications
93 3.5 3.5 - Light and medium IC engine big end bearings
86 10.5 3.5 - Light and medium IC engine main bearings
80 11 3.0 6 General purpose heavy bearings (lead increases plasticity)
60 10 28.5 1.5 Heavy duty marine engine bearings, electrical machines
40 10 1.5 48.5 Low cost, general purpose, medium duty bearings
....I bought a home brewing kit and book on a differing subject :beer & look what happened :hehe :nahnah :whistle :shoot :sorry....but white metal wheels irrespective of the %'s as above will be too heavy & too soft..............
From :ranting experience :crash .....the [40 10 1.5 48.5%] is near impossible to apply any 90/10 Pb/Sn soft solder to correct any faults......with the parent material literally melting away prior to fluidization of the 90/10 filler......Derek
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Excellent points Derek, thanks for the warning. It is only the hubs I am intenting to cast, not the whole wheel, the spokes and rims will all be brass or aluminium, dependant on wieght tolerances. I think at 1:32 scale, the scale I am using, cast hubs should be ok? Please do warn me some more if you think not, would much prefer to know now than when its too late!!!!
As for the soldering, I not intending to do any, but use bolts. That should nicely side step that dilemma ;)
As for the home brewing, i take the warning seriously and will steer clear, you just saved me a lot of trouble, cheers! ;D
Kim, as for weight in other scales, maybe some form of resin casting is the way to go, like they make small scale model ships with, I had a few I sold on ebay last year, they were pretty rigid and but light, much much lighter than the metal ones I also had. I've read it will take a screw as well, and can be drilled/filed etc. I've not researched it very far, as very keen to try and make the metal work, unless people don't think even hubs in metal at my scale will work, the resin has been in back of my mind as a back up plan!
I have two thoughts on fitting to the shaft, the simplest being a bolt thro the hub and shaft, simple and failsafe surely? But my prefered method is as per the real ship, some kind of taper to the end of the shaft, with key pin and locking nut, havnt figured out the exact details yet, but theres some great photos in the Waverley rebuild diarys on www.pswaverley.org.uk will get to that in time....
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A busy day today...
I spent a considerable time in front of the computer and on the phone ....
Results -
1. I have completely redrawn my Talisman wheels on the computer to include rods drive disk and hub.
2. Sourced a supplier of M1 threaded rod , M1 nuts and bolts in quantity and cost that is not prohibitive to making the kits commercially
3. Turned a suitable hub as a plug for casting.
4. Created a moulding box and cast my first half of a suitable hub mold
5. Spoke to a possible etching manufacturer who is willing to carry out the work in small quantities.
6.Took the dog for a walk and had dinner.
Question
I'm no draughtsman or computer whizz so my accuracy is maybe not wt hat of a professional However (as can be seen in attached pic, smaller circle is 0.597mm i/dia) I'm only out in a few places by about max 0.3mm.
Surely that is an acceptable tolerance for most modellers?
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0.3mm Kim - Good grief, if you hadn't mentioned it I doubt anyone would have ever known!!
If I can make something that's within 3mm I'd be happy! :hehe
Regards
Eddy
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Sorry Eddy,
but I have to disagree with you about fixed float paddle wheels on a model.
The WAVERLEY that Walter Snowdon has, originally had fixed blades and it created a lot of choking in the sponson boxes until I made and fitted my own design of feathering wheels, and there was a marked improvement in performance, and battery life.
Sandy
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Sorry Eddy,
but I have to disagree with you about fixed float paddle wheels on a model.
The WAVERLEY that Walter Snowdon has, originally had fixed blades and it created a lot of choking in the sponson boxes until I made and fitted my own design of feathering wheels, and there was a marked improvement in performance, and battery life.
Sandy
No need to say sorry Sandy, I don't have a problem if someone disagrees with me, as long as it's done in a friendly and constructive way as your comment was....
The choking in the paddleboxes I can understand, but was the improvement in performance (ie acceleration or top speed) due to the removal of the choking, or the feathering wheel? I still feel that a feathering wheel gives little in the way of better acceleration or speed as long as there aren't other issues involved as in your example.
Whilst a 1 or 2 percent increase in efficiency is worthwhile on a full sized ship - In terms of better speed and more importantly better economy, is it really noticable on a model? Unless it's alleviating another symptom? I still have my doubts...
Having said that, I'd still prefer to have feathering floats on a model if that was what the full sized ship had, purely so it looks right!
Regards
Eddy
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Hi PD's......Talisman...."Took the dog for a walk and had dinner"
:nono...does this imply the dog ate his/her dinner or you ate your dinner? :hehe :nahnah
1) I must be thick but cannot understand the relevence of the RED lines superimposed over the black lines
2) Is it that I am in the southern hemisphere & see the RED at the bottom when in fact they would display at the top in the northern bit of the world?
3) Or is it that I may have too many :beer
:sorry.....Derek
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Hi All,
Interesting point Sandy. My dad had problems with his feathering 'spooned' paddlewheels until he increased the ventilation to the paddle boxes so perhaps this method could be used with fixed paddle floats.
Derek :)
I ate my dinner and the dog ate his dinner and some of mine :)
1. I should have explained drawing better - red line is the outline of the paddlewheel as drawn by me, the black circle is drawn as a template and the black straight lines are as positioning tools. How clear have i made the mud?
2 Perhaps
3. as above :hehe
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Hi All
Ok, more research = more questions
How would people feel if the wheel set were held together with nylon/ plastic nuts and bolts rather than metal / brass nuts and bolts? (assuming they would be of similar / identical size as their metal counterparts)
My reasons for asking -
1. They would be lighter ?
2. Graupner sell many with plastic rivets and have few complaints????? Nuts and bolts are a more permanent / robust fixing and possibly more scale?
3.Once painted how knows anyway?
Would really appreciate any and all feedback on this question.
Many thanks,
Kim
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hmmm, I'm not sure about plastic nuts and bolts Kim....
Can you get them small enough? I've never seen any below about 4mm diameter.
The threads are generally a very coarse pitch and therefore the nuts are much thicker than metal ones.
Lastly they break easily if your a bit too enthusuastic when tightening them.
So apart from a saving in weight (which would be marginal), and perhaps a small saving in cost, I don't see that they really have a whole lot going for them..... Sorry but that's my opinion :(
Eddy
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hi Kim
I tend to agree with Eddy. In fact brass BA nuts and bolts are actually cheaper in bulk than the bigger nylon/delrin ones.
My preference for the perfect paddle wheel would be.
PVC turned hub (can be tapped for bolts)
Brass etched paddle pivots, control arms and rivet detail.
ABS/PVC or even wood Paddle floats.
Spokes in ABS or PVC.
Wheel rims in etched brass (if thin) otherwise PVC or ABS
and definitely brass nuts bolts and studs
Stuart
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Eddy many thanks for your thoughts.
I have found a supplier that does M2 with similar/identical diameter/measurements.
The saving cost is significant and that's my reason for asking.
many thanks any other thoughts would be appreciated
P.S. - Interestingly the nylon bolts/nuts come with a tighter thread.
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At 1/48th scale an M2 nut would be about 10 inches diameter to scale. At 24th scale 20inches Dats BIG! :P
Stuart
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Hi,
You sure about that Stuart?
By my reckoning a M2 nut is around 4mm dia - so that in real life from 1:48 would give a 7.5" dia. nut (3.75"dia thread)
and from 1:24 would represent a real life 3.75" dia nut (1.875" dia thread)
could be wrong
kiwi
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I seem to be having trouble with my numbers today! My UNRESERVED apologies to all!
Perhaps building scale models is not an occupation I should indulge in!!!
Stuart
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I seem to be having trouble with my numbers today! My UNRESERVED apologies to all!
Perhaps building scale models is not an occupation I should indulge in!!!
Stuart
:terrific :whistle :squareone
Eddy
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Ok Guys it's late at night so forgive the maths,
I do appreciate the comments.
If i go for brass / metal it does make a big difference to the cost. The difference in size between plastic and metal head screws / nuts is 0.2mm, which in scale terms is arguable????
Question - what would be the ideal diameter 1 / 48 scale nut and bolt? Is such a diameter available in nuts and bolts?
Regards,
Kim
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I put some items together with plastic and nylon nuts and bolts at one time for a theater prop. It went together in an hour, I then spent the next week re tightening and replacing loose and missing parts. When the production ended the prop-master presented me with a sledge hammer and told me to enjoy myself.
If I was going to use plastic and nylon nuts and bolts again I would glue everything together after installing them.
Regards,
Gerald
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Hi PD's.......Talisman....here is a link to a table on BA thread form.......I am building @ 1:24 & find 10 BA [1.7 mm diameter] suitable...this equates to a 40 mm diameter stud diameter
So you must answer your own question...........but I am guessing that 16BA may be suitable for 1:48 scale & should be readliy available in brass.....but they are tiny :hammer
Only a few rules to follow....the higher the number = the smaller diameter.......the smaller diameter = the higher the cost - Derek :towel
http://www.sizes.com/tools/thread_BA.htm
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Despite being disappointed about not being able to attend the paddler day some info regarding etching came through the door today:)
I have to say the samples do look impressive and the possibility of producing a fine set of wheels has cheered me up slightly.
Stuart many thanks for your thoughts on an ideal set of wheels i will use them as a reference / bench mark for my efforts. :)
P.S
the poll has been altered to be visible - results look as i expected - Many thanks to all that have voted :)
Pics of samples -
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A busy day today...
2. Sourced a supplier of M1 threaded rod , M1 nuts and bolts in quantity and cost that is not prohibitive to making the kits commercially
Hmm...
I received a sample of my M1 threaded rod today........ M10 they sent.... expecting this just to be a mistake i now find out that M1 threaded rod is hellish difficult to make for less than £50 a meter.....
Back to the drawing board...
Regards
Kim
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Sorry Kim........"only a few rules to follow....the higher the number = the smaller diameter.......the smaller diameter = the higher the cost"
I am not a machinist [since 40 years ago ;D]....but I doubt that M1.0 diameter would be produced as threaded bar 1000 mm long..... :hammer..........Derek
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Hi Kim
I presume you're using 1mm rod (threaded) for the horizontal bracing and/or the paddle float pivot shafts?
I use 1mm rod too - threaded 12 BA (1mm rod being 40thou or exactly the right size for a 12 BA die). I would have thought that there should be plenty of small light engineering outfits able and willing to thread just the ends of short lengths to accept nuts (ideal job for a small capstan lathe). Or do you Need the whole length to be threaded?
Stuart
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mmmmmmmmmmm........PD's....sort of what I was eluding to Stuart.........a length of 1.0 mm brass wire & a 12BA die nut .....only problem here in OZ is that we cannot purchase 1.0 mm diameter brass rod.....
We are still imperial with 0.03125" diameter wire = 1.23 mm diameter :ranting ............
I like 10 BA...as that is close to 1/16" diameter........... :coffee Derek
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Hi All,
Many thanks for the replies Stuart & Derek.
Stuart - I had never heard of a Capstain lathe before, allways learning :)
I think i will probably go with your idea of threaded rod ends.
Derek your spot on with the size to cost ratio :(
I have some time to give to this project tomorrow so hopefully i might have an idea re cost of etching which is the the make or break costing - fingers crossed their costing methods are sympathetic to model paddle boat makers :)
I have three complete sets of design drawings all in 1:24 and 1:48 scales prepared and still trying to sort the maths for reduction / enlargement for 1:32nd
Might get this project off the ground soon will know more tomorrow.
Many thanks again
Kim
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Hi all.
Today i received a costing from one of the larger photo etching companies and in the amounts I'm looking for their price puts commercial production out the window.
Not put off i widened my search and have found a very enthusiastic engraver just down the road and i have an appointment with a local photo etcher on Tuesday.
Will keep you posted,
Kim
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Keep trying Kim, I'm following your exploits with interest!
Regards
Eddy
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Sorry PD's....I stand corrected ....[only problem here in OZ is that we cannot purchase 1.0 mm diameter brass rod] = incorrect...all good model stores sell the K&S range of metal sections & sheet....... from USA - naturally 1.0 mm brass round section is available
If you do go down the path of attempting to thread the 1.0 mm diameter brass, you will need the appropriate sized 3 jaw pin vice, the die nut & best to secure the pin vice truly vertical in a larger bench vise...see my mock ups for 10BA = ~~~~~~~~1.6 mm diameter
Brass or bronze material technically does not need any tapping or threading paste......... :porkies...however on such small section material [1.0 mm diameter] any additional lubricity wetting agent will help & minimise the potential to shear the material...... ..... but :shhh....
I would shear 1 in 10 small 10 BA studs that I attempt to thread ....... as you can see I am firstly using a die [with the split] which provides the highest tolerancing major diameter as I do not constrain the die which would effectively produce a thread form with a smaller major diameter :shoot
If you searched the extensive posts here you may find that 'bogstandard' recommended "Trefolex" green cutting paste [for small brass diameters] ...however I suspect that kitchen olive oil or automotive mineral oil may suffice
.....& just remember the old teaching.....1/4 of a turn clockwise.......then 1/8 of a turn anticlockwise.................this is to 'break' the chips being formed ....... :goodluck ....Derek
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Hi All,
Many thanks to all that have input on this thread it has been a great help.
I have now sourced suppliers for all the components to make the wheels complete with drive shafts.
1mm Brass rims
1mm Brass Floats
12ba Brass fixings
6mm silversteel rod
The first set of wheels to be produced will be the 1:24 rimless feathering wheels and allowing a very slim margin should have a retail price of £149.99.
I'm pretty sure i have done the best i can to keep the cost as low as possible.
Your feedback on the cost or materials would be most helpfull.
Many thanks again,
Kim
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I have three complete sets of design drawings all in 1:24 and 1:48 scales prepared and still trying to sort the maths for reduction / enlargement for 1:32nd
I found this on one of my many trawls for information may be of use to someone -
http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/scalecon.html
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Lets be honest, it isn't cheap, but having said that it's a LOT better than I thought it would be!!
I bought a set of the 1:48 paddlewheels that Mike Mayhew makes at Waverley Models, and they were over £160 5 years ago! So 1:24 at £149.99 is nothing short of amazing when you consider how much metals have risen in price over the last couple of years alone!
I would like to build a paddletug to use for tug towing - Simply because I've never seen one used in competition before.... So I'd certainly be interested in a set of rimmed wheels at 1:32 scale.
Please post photos as soon as you get the first set produced Kim, I'm sure it would whet the appetite of a few of our members!
Regards
Eddy
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Lets be honest, it isn't cheap, but having said that it's a LOT better than I thought it would be!!
Yep it is a lot better than i had imagined it to be!
I bought a set of the 1:48 paddlewheels that Mike Mayhew makes at Waverley Models, and they were over £160 5 years ago! So 1:24 at £149.99 is nothing short of amazing when you consider how much metals have risen in price over the last couple of years alone!
Perhaps my margin is to slim ;D
I would like to build a paddletug to use for tug towing - Simply because I've never seen one used in competition before.... So I'd certainly be interested in a set of rimmed wheels at 1:32 scale.
Did you have a tug in mind Eddy?
I'm Considering building an Old trafford / Reliant.
This is a project long overdue as my Dad built a plug for her when i was about ten after a visit to the Maritime Museum.
Please post photos as soon as you get the first set produced Kim, I'm sure it would whet the appetite of a few of our members!
As soon as i have the first batch i will post some pics.
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Going off topic a bit, but in answer to your question Kim, I think maybe the tug "Lingdale" which worked on the Tees.
Eddy
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Hi All,
A quick post to round this thread off.
First of all a Huge thanks to all that have voted, given advice & support.
I have started to put together the first wheel in our range and have to say that I'm very happy with the results.
The final component (the hub) will be with me on Monday and kits will be available for dispatch thereafter.
Another thank you has to go to Barry for allowing me to stock his range of paddle wheel kits. I believe this now gives me an extensive range, if not the widest available.
I hope to grow the range over time and also include hulls of some of the well known Steamers of the Clyde.
Again,
Thank You All
Kim
www.clydemodelboats.co.uk
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Hi,
you sure you have right price for Barries paddlewheels
sturt standard is one pound more than the deluxe
kiwi
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.... If it was easy everyone would be doing it....
A mentor once gave me this piece of advise ... not until i started Clyde Model Boats just over a year ago did i fully understand it !
I have had a most interesting year since starting this post and have to thank a lot of people for their help, support and advise in particular i have to thank Eddy & Stuart who have both given encouragement and technical support... To both of you a big thanks!
So looking forward to next year..
I will be continuing with Paddlers ... just because i love them! However i have to face up to the fact that it is a business i am running and again , as my mentor kept telling me ... the only reason a business exists is to make a profit... so with this in mind i have decided to branch out into Turbine Steamers. Again they are a niche market but offer model boat builders an alternative to what is currently available in the market place.
One of the biggest compliments I feel i have received this year is an invite to display at the Mobile Marine Models Christmas Cracker Event - 4th December 2010 ... If you plan to go to the event please do come say hello.
So here's to next year !
Thank you all again and my sincere thanks to all that have helped to get Clyde Model Boats to this stage!
Kim