Paddleducks
Paddler Modelling => Construction => Topic started by: Malcolm on September 11, 2009, 04:31:44 AM
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I am new to paddler modelling, and to this forum, although not new to modelling. I am considering making "Westward Ho", as briefly described in "Practical Mechanics" in the 50's. Has anyone made this model? Is the hull as drawn deep enough to carry a reasonable load of machinery and batteries, or even steam plant if I live long enough? Any advice would be welcome. I am considering using the original "Bread and butter" method, and possibly the Reeves aluminium paddle wheels, rather than the plastic ones.
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I'm not familiar with the plan you are proposing to use. However I have built a model of the Glen Usk, another of Campbell's steamers. I would not build with the bread and butter unless you can make the hull very very thin. I built plank on frame using 1/6th balsa with plates from aluminium cans stuck on with evo-stick, 8 years old still going strong. Lightness is the key to success with plenty of draft, especially if a steam plant is installed ballast can always be added. As there is a lot of top hamper and a steam plant has a high center of gravity. Having said all this my model 58.3/4" long @1/4"= 1' sails on a scale draft of 1.3/4" with a cheddar steam plant, I have had to resort to moving the batteries from side to side by radio to keep her on an even keel in the slightest breeze. It was my first attempt and I did learn a lot. I made a set of brass wheels, far to heavy, so made a set in ali riveted together only took 4 hours.R.G.Y.
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Malcolm, If you would like to go to photo albums click on search than type GLEN USK you will fined my model sailing. Geoff . R.G.Y.
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..... possibly the Reeves aluminium paddle wheels, rather than the plastic ones.
Sound interesting i tried googling them and cant come up with anything any pics / more info?
Many thanks
Kim
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Thank You both. The design is here on this site, in "Plans & drawings" 6th Feb 2005, posted by Eddy Matthews. I would very much appreciate informed comment from members on the viability of this hull made by the "Bread and butter"method. I have kept the original "Practical Mechanics" articles for over 50 years, intending to have a go sometime, and it's now or never!
Kim, Reeves are Model engineering suppliers. Their castings are intended for use with the Edgar Westbury engine, and are intended for model engineers with machine tool capability. They are quite expensive.
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Hi Malcolm,
The file from paddleducks downloads only contains the first part of the build article, you wouldnt have the other parts would you?
cheers
kiwi
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Maicolm, I have built the Westbury engine and I don't have any use for the cast paddles if you are interested. The engine has run on comprest air but the valve timing keeps slipping so it all has to come apart again. I am now in the process of building a boiler. Geoff
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Kiwi: I have the other two parts but they are disappointing, mostly to do with the engine. There is a slightly enlarged view of the paddleboxes and some info on paint schemes. I will try to put them on the site after my holiday, but I'm no computer expert, so may fail. Geoff, I might be interested in your cast paddles. How much do you want and where are you?
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Hi,
To help improve the accuracy of the model, some basic plans of the real ship are held on file at the Glasgow University Archives, not the most helpful plans ever for model building but with some time spent on them I have managed to gain a lot from them.
I have done quite a bit of research on this ship, and am drawing up plans for a future model at 1:32 for this ship, based on period photos and the Glasgow Uni drawings, am happy to give further information if needed.
Cheers.
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Hi Ancoaster78. I would certainly be interested in more detailed information on "Westward Ho". My first consideration at this stage is whether the hull lines shown in the "Practical Mechanics" article are reasonably correct. I believe that it is common in model design to increase the depth of the hull to increase the payload, and I would like to find out whether the designer did this.
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Hi Malcolm,
Yes the hull has been deepened, considerably so. Unfortunatly this is not the only error, this drawing is at best 'stand off scale.'
At a quick glance I can confirm the stem is not vertical enough, the sheer is too flat, and the midship section of the hull lines far too parallel. It looks like it has been simplified to make it a lot easier to construct.
It certainly would make an atractive enough model, and no reason at all not to go for it as is if thats you're preference, and the deepened draft will greatly aid stability at that scale, but if its scale accuracy you're after, I suggest you're going to need something else to work with.
If you look at the photos of the model in the artical, they show an excelent scale model, compare them to the profile and deck view drawings given and you can immediatly see the two are not the same. That model in the photos looks good, the drawings are simplified, rather than actually too scale, and will not build into the same model the photos....
My drawings for this ship, which is a particular favorite of mine, are probally only approx 50-60% complete at the moment, I have taken measurements of each of the decks on the GA plan the Glasgow Uni sent me and from those am drawing my own hull lines, I have several ships I am trying to perfect this 'art' with at the moment, time consuming but rewarding in its own way. I have a midship section which hs given sound information on draft, hull form, depths etc, I am confident the two worked together, together with dimensions taken from drawings of sistership PS Britannia I also have, and careful studing of all the many photos in books I have acquired will enable a pretty accurate plan to be produced, in time....!
So i'm not currently in a place to simply offer you an alternative to consider, but am certainly happy to share the information I have established to enable you to decide how you wish to move forward, if you want anything more, just ask, i'd love to see a model of this ship built up!
Cheers, Andy
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Malcolm, The draft of Westward Ho would have been approximately 7ft this will tell you how much the draft has been increased on your plan. £60 south Devon. Geoff
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, I have had to resort to moving the batteries from side to side by radio to keep her on an even keel in the slightest breeze.
Wow, thats sounds like a great solution, would love to know more about how it works/how you made it etc, I always prefer a scale draft, and novel ideas to help make it feasible are definatly worth a look in my book! Are their anymore photos of the model, it looks great! I love the Campbells ships....
Cheers 8)
Key dimensions for Westward Ho: Length Between perpendiculars - 225' Beam 26' Draft 5'6'' (not including an external keel which protrudes 6'' below the baseline making the total draft 6') Depth of hull to main deck at lowest point of sheer 9'6'' above baseline, Depth of hull to prom deck at lowest point of sheer 17' above baseline, Centreline of shaft 11'1'' above baseline.
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Hi Andy and Geoff.
Andy, thanks for your very detailed reply. I am attracted to "Westward Ho" both because I like her appearance, and because, very probably, I sailed on her when I was a youngster. As a beginner to boat modelling, it might well be that the "Practical Mechanics" hull would do for me. I would have preferred to have the hull true to the original, above the waterline at least, but I am in my mid seventies, and can't afford to wait too long for better information to appear.
I am three-quarters through the building of a full-sized (18ft) steam launch, but I fear that anno domini is getting the better of me, and it is fairly unlikely that I shall finish it, so I need an indoor job for the winter.
I note the comments re the draught, but in any event I would want to increaseit a little to make a good operating boat, and to carry the machinery. Would it be possible, in the light of your comments, to slightly modify the above water-level lines so as to move towards truer scale? I think I am a good enough modeller to do this if you could provide any suggestions as to what to alter. When you refer to "baseline", is this the waterline? I have had some difficulty in relating the measurements you gave to the "P.M." drawing.
Geoff, I looked at your "Glen Usk". It looks a nice model. I would be very pleased if i could do as well. If you built the Westbury engine you must be a model engineer. I built the 2.5inchx2.5inch vertical twin for my steamboat. Crankshaft from the solid on a Myford! Never again!
Are your paddlewheels brass or aluminium? Are they 5.75 inch dia as in the Westbury drawing?If aluminium, I would definitely like to have them, if brass I might be a bit concerned over the weight. If this is the case perhaps you would weigh one for me. I live in Shropshire, a bit far to collect, so it would have to be post, at my expense of course.
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I note the comments re the draught, but in any event I would want to increaseit a little to make a good operating boat, and to carry the machinery. Would it be possible, in the light of your comments, to slightly modify the above water-level lines so as to move towards truer scale? I think I am a good enough modeller to do this if you could provide any suggestions as to what to alter. When you refer to "baseline", is this the waterline? I have had some difficulty in relating the measurements you gave to the "P.M." drawing.
What about maybe adding a 1/4 inch or so to her hull beam? Would help with stability and buoyancy but not detract as obviously from her appearance?
Just a thought.
Regards
Kim
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Hi Malcolm,
Very excited to hear about the steam launch, doing one of those is on my very long term list. Really hope you do get to complete it, probally not a winter project though!
As for Westward Ho, modifying above the waterline as you suggest is a good solution, it will allow ease and speed of construction and potentially a far better finished result than the plan as given. I will see if I can come up with a basic plan with the key dimensions on it making clear whats what, from that you can then ammend the PM drawings to suit your preferences.
Not sure what format is best to do this in so it can be easily posted on here, design is my thing, computers are not! ideas anyone? the sponsons, portholes and paddle boxes are all incorrect on the profile in PM, i will endeavour to include as many key dimensions that I know for certain as possible to allow you to get it as close to accurate as possible, i'm almost as excited to see this done as if it were my own project, that little ship really is a favorite!
Are you intending to build the ship at the size shown in the PM? For scale, the westbury paddles which i believe are 5 3/4'' dia (maybe Geoff will confirm?) will be considerably too large in scale for a 4ft model (approx 1:58 scale), possibly weight too, ive not built that size ever so can't say. The paddle boxes have been enlarged on the PM drawing for this, however they would be an almost perfect match at 5/16'' to a foot scale (1:38.4), which would give a model a little under 6' is this too big? Another option is to enalarge the plan less, up to 1/4'' to the foot scale (1:48), a very popular scale, this will mean the paddle wheels are only an inch too large, and give a model of approx 58'' possibly the compromise?
If you are keen, let me know your preferences on this, and i will draw you up a kwik key dimensions plan allowing the best accuracy possible for which ever option you prefer....anything for the Westward Ho ;D
PS As for the baseline, that is an invisible datum used when building a real ship, on most ships it is generally the underside of the keel, for modelling purposes that normally means the bottom of the hull, as is the case on this ship. However, where this ship is unusual is that according to the midship section drawing from the shipyard (same on the better quality PS Britannia one, and PS Ravenswood too) it has a 6'' keel protruding down from the bottom of the hull on the centre line, all the way from the stem to the sternpost. So the drafe of the hull is 5'6'' + 6'' keel below the hull giving total draft of 6', will put this on the diagram if needed, its quite old fashioned!
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Not sure what format is best to do this in so it can be easily posted on here, design is my thing, computers are not! ideas anyone?
There's best and there is easiest and they aren't the same thing! :hehe
The best is undoutably CAD in either DWG or DXF format, but not everyone has software that can read, and more importantly, print those files.
The easiest for most people is Adobe Acrobat (PDF) format - The reader is free, and it's easy to print large drawings using a standard A4 printer - it just prints multiple sheets that you can paste together. It's also easy to print at a different scale if you wish to....
Regards
Eddy
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Eddy, I can draw DXF or DWF but my CAD wont save a drawing as a PDF.
Is there anything I can do to convert the drawing somehow to PDF?
Or any idea what I could draw in to get it to save as a PDF?
All a learning curve to me 8)
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Andy,
You can use the software at this link to convert from DXF to PDF - But the free version only works 30 times before you have to register and buy it.... Should be good enough to play around with?
http://anydwg.com/dxf-to-pdf-ex.html
Regards
Eddy
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Nice one, thanks Eddy.
Certainly don't think i'll need 30 attempts ;-)
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Hi all. My computer skills are quite basic; I hope I can cope with all this.
Andy, I am alarmed to see how badly flawed the "P.M." design is. The error with the paddle wheel diameter is really worrying, because I really do not want to have to make a set of feathering wheels from scratch. I do not think that I would wish to go above 48inch length, because of practical problems in accommodating and transporting anything larger. So, as I see it, I have four options:
(a) Build as PM design, and accept that it is not a true representation, (b) build to your dimensions and hope something turns up with regard to the paddles, (c) build to your dimensions but accept oversized paddles or (d) turn to another design altogether. I am inclined towards (b), but will give it some thought over the next few days.
If anyone knows of commercial wheels smaller than 5.75 inches, perhaps they would let me know.I would prefer to avoid plastic if possible.
Malcolm.
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Yes the diameter of the westbury paddle wheel 5-7/8" and the floats 2-5/8" + 1-1/8. But don't worry make your own it's not at all difficult. All you need is a sheet of aluminium about 1/16" (1.5mm) thick, 1/2" gimp pins ( small nails with a round head (B&Q)) small tube a good fit on the gimp pins and larger tube to fit over you drive shaft. The tools a scroll or jig saw small hammer drill, flies, side cutters and soldering iron. Mark out the wheel and drill gimp pin size holes at the pivot points of the floats and the center. Cut out a square containing the marking out and 3 more squares the same size, clamp together and drill through 2 holes, push gimp pins through both holes cut off with side cutters, rest the pin head on a hard surface then very gently hammer the cut end too form a rivet. Drill the remainder of the holes more can be riveted if necessary. Cut the aperture's before cutting the perimeter using scroll saw, drill center hole to fit shaft tube and file off rivets, 2 of the wheels can be panel beaten to dish the center about 1/2" (be sure to make a left and right hand)but this is not essential. Mount these wheels to the shaft tube, make 4 cut down the end of the tube 1/4" bend open the tabs formed to 90 degrees, thread on the wheel drill through tabs and rivet. I now have a lathe and would make a proper hub. A pattern is made for the floats with 2 holes for rivets to hold the hinge bracket 1/4" narrower than the distance between the wheel frames. mark a face edge and face side ( if turned around any discrepancies will be doubled). Thin strips of Ali 3/16" wide form the hinge and feathering arm. more to followR.G.Y.
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5 holes 2 to fix the float 2 for the pivots(wrist pins)and 1 for the feathering rod. A rough fig made to bend the brackets, a block of hard wood the width over the wheel frames. nails to fit the holes in floats in the top when the bracket is bent the hinge holes must be the same distance down the side. Rivet to the floats always make a right and left hand set. Cut the thin tube to fit between the hinge bracket less the thickness of the wheel frames, File with a triangular file until there is a hole into the tube, not to big, a 1/4" from each end. The assembly procedure thread the inner wheel on the shaft tube, put a float through the appropriate spacewith the hinge on the outside of both wheels, place a tube between the wheels line up the holes and insert a cleaned and fluxed gimp pin, run solder into the v hole to prevent the pin coming out. Repeat until the wheel is complete. A small amount of epoxy will fix the inner wheel to the shaft tube. Feathering rods made from thin tube flatten both ends and drill. T|he king rod made of sheet holes for gimp pin around the base. and 1/8" hole in center to accept a screw protruding from the sponson forward of the center line of the main shaft. assemble the feathering gear with gimp pins and solder washers cut from a steel can snip of the ends of the pins. The solder will not stick to the aluminium so all will work well. finally use a small self tapping screw to fix the shaft tube to the shaft. I could have made a set quicker than writing this. Geoff.
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Hi all.
Kim, thanks for your idea of slightly widening the beam. Worth bearing in mind.
Geoff, I think you may have made it sound simpler than it really is, but your remarks have encouraged me. I can do it; it's just that time is short. In the circumstances, I hope that you won't mind if I don't proceed with buying your Westbury paddles; I hope I haven't messed you about too much.
Andy, if you can come up with some dimensions, I would like to proceed with the PM design, modified toward truer scale as far as I can.
If any of you would like to see my steam launch, look on the Steam Boat Association home page, click on "register", then "Iris". Malcolm.
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Hi Malcolm,
I have drawn up what I think you need to get started on CAD, a simplified version of my own drawings for the ship I am working on, but can't figure yet how to get it from the CAD onto here, it seems to be stuck in 'modelspace' not in a finished drawing status, which is confusing for me as its only the first time i've had to do something like this, never prionted off this CAD before or had to forward a document!!!!
Anyone know how I get the drawing from some huge infinate model space into a sensibly sized drawing?
In the meantime, so you can get going, here are the principle dimensions in better details so you can get busy modifiying the PM plans to suit your needs....
First of all, the stem should be vertical, not sloping forward as shown in PW. The very front edge of the stem is the 'Forward Perpendicular' on this ship. The After end of the Stern post is the 'Aft Perpendicular'
The length between those perpendiculars is 225' The overhang at the stern is 6'6'' giving a total length for the hull of 231'6''.
The part at the stern where the hull steps up from quarterdeck level to promenade deck level is 13' forward of the Aft perpendicular, or 19'6'' forward of the very stern edge of the hull. The step up from quaterdeck level to promdeck is 4'.
The paddle shaft is 100'9'' forward of the Aft perpendicular, and 124'3'' aft of the Forward Perpendicular.
The forward edge of the forward sponson house is 95'3'' aft of the forward perpendicular.
The forward edge of the paddlebox is 18' aft of the forward edge of the forward sponson house.
The paddlebox is 28' long at its base, and run from 11' forward of the centreline of the paddleshaft, to 17' aft of it.
The aft end of the aft sponson house is 77'9'' forward of the after perpendicular, and 6' aft of the aft end of the paddle box.
The lowest point of the hull sheer is 17' above the baseline. The highest point at the bow, is approx 20'6'' above the baseline (this dimensions scaled from drawing, and still being testing on my drawings for accuracy...)
The underside of the sponson belting is 9'8'' above the baseline.
The top of the paddlebox is 22'2'' above the baseline.
The centreline of the paddleshaft is 11'1'' above the baseline.
The hull is 26' wide. The outside face of the paddlebox is 25'5'' out from the centreline of the hull.
The outside edge of the sponson belting is 27'3'' out from the centreline, which is 22'' out from the face of the paddlebox, this is comprised of the 15'' high x 12'' wide spring beam, and outside of that the 10'' wide belting.
There is a 6'' stempost and 6'' sternpost, these are both inside the perpendiculars, and are linked by the 6'' external keel which is below the baseline/bottom of the hull.
I hope that is easy enough to follow, if not don't hesitate to ask, also it is not a complete list obviously, I will provide other dimensiosn as you comeaccross the need for the, also hopefully I will be able to work out how to get the drawing on here which will make it all clearer, or failing that if youre desperte, i'll post a sketch to you with the dimensions on.
All the best with the project! 8)
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How big is the file Andy, and what format is it in now?
As an Admin I can bypass most of the limits that users are limited to, so unless it really is HUGE, I can probably put it up on the website for you - I'm sure it would be of interest to a lot of others as well....
Regards
Eddy
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NO problems Malcolm. Honest it is easy I forgot to say rivet 2 or 3 floats, hinge brackets to the patterns and file to shape. They do last I have had no trouble in years. Geoff.
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Hi,
assuming you are using something like Autocad, then you "print" to PDF, not "save".
If you let us know what cad you are using, then maybe we can give you some steps to help out
cheers
kiwi
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Hi Andy. First of all may I thank you very much for your time and trouble so far. Much appreciated. As I explained, I am no computer expert, and my drawings are still done with drawing board and tee square, as I was taught at Tech many years ago. Also please excuse me if I misuse any nautical terms. I have already drawn up the "PM" design side view to full model size. I shall mark on it the dimensions you have given me to see what alterations are needed. Can I take it that the sternpost is a vertical axis through the rudder shaft? Before I can actually cut wood I shall need to know how much the hull lines need to be modified, but this is not urgent, as this is really a winter project, and I have not identified suitable wood yet. I have a source of planed Iroko, which I used on the steamboat. This might be a little heavy, although being strong it would permit of a quite thin hull. Another alternative suggested is marine ply. Any ideas anyone? It is quite difficult to get hold of decent seasoned timber in this area. Malcolm.
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Hi All,
I use TurboCAD, and it is quite an old version that came free as a cover disk on a magazine which I didnt even buy as someone saw it and thought of me and got it me as a gift :-)
It isn't at all flash or up to date, but entirely suitable for producing 2D drawings.
The trouble I am having, is not the saving it as the right format, I will let me save as almost anything, from which I could use the link Eddy posted to get it into PDF for Acrobat, but I am having trouble how to control the physical dimensions of the drawing. The way I have drawn this, and all my other ships, is in what the program calls 'model space' which is basically a limitless page, the drawing even at 1mm to the Inch scale (not used for modelling, but I find very convinient for comparitivly rapidly drawing up hull lines, getting the design right etc before converting back into the Imperical units on the 1:32 scale finished drawing, makes sense in my mind, honest!) is pretty tiny compared to the vastness of the page! I could even draw the shop at full size and it would be a tiny blip!
So, my trouble is how to move the drawing I have done, onto a set page that could be printed or posted. I need to figure how to put boundaries in as it were, does this make sense? Any suggestions welcome, ive gotta learn at some point, all my ships are drawn this way, so at some point I will need to tidy up all of the drawings!!
Cheers guys, am sure we'll get there ;-)
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Malcolm,
You're welcome, as is anyone else who decides to build any ship I have researched and asks for help!
The sternpost is not the rudder post, the rudder post is called exactly that. The aft perpendicular on a ship without a sternpost, Bristol Queen for example, is same line as the turning axis of the rudder, as you suggest. However the Westward Ho has a sternpost and the aft edge of it is the Aft Perpendicular.
The sternpost is very similar to the stem, in the case of Westward Ho the stem is a 6''x1'' steel (or iron) bar running right the way up the front edge of the hull. all of the hullplates lap onto it, the sternpost is 6''x2'' and runs vertically up the stern from keel the the point were the counter stern overhangs, again all of the hullplates lap onto it. The rudder is mounted directly aft of the sternpost, the hinges for the rudder would be built onto the stern post. Basically, the outside edge of the sternpost, is the outside edge of the hull at the stern, excluding the overhang.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kentish/29004860/in/pool-pswaverley
That photo shows the bow of the Waverley, you can clearly see the stem, on this ship its 4'' not 6'' as on Westward Ho, and is raked forward considerably whereas Westward Ho is vertical.
http://freespace.virgin.net/tom.lee/westwardimg.htm
That one shows Westward Ho as built, my favorite of its various incarnations I think, clearly shows the vertical stem and pronounced sheer to the deck....
http://paddlesteamers.freehostia.com/WestwardHo.htm
This one a nice side view of the ship in its final version, with portholes instead of windows on the maindeck, different paddlebox decorations, a different funnel, extra lifeboats (post Titanic) and a deckhouse aft of the funnel.
Hope this makes things clearer?
have fun 8)
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Hi all,
Does anyone know why Westward Ho and others in the Campbell fleet ended up having those rather large flagstaffs at or near the stern? They seem very tall, I'm sure there must be a reason for it.
Malcolm, good luck with the model....a fine looking ship
Clark
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Hi Clark,
If you are refering to the second photo of the two, the flagstaff is actually a Mizzenmast and they were fitted to a lot of the ships to carry radio ariels clear of the funnel from the main mast.
The ships so fitted lost their flagpoles from the stern and had the ensign flown from a gaff on these mizzenmasts instead.
A fine looking ship indeed :-)
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A change in the regulations required vessels over 50ft to carry a second all round white navigation light. Hence the need for the mizzen mast, although Cosens of Weymouth but the second light on a pole fixed to the rear of the funnel.R.G.Y.
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Both answers are correct, although the change in lighting regulations came in 1952/3, long after Westward ho had been withdrawn from service and scrapped, and resulted in full height masts at the stern, as on Bristol Queen, Cardiff Queen and as still seen on Waverley today.
These little half height masts on several of the Campbells ships, as shown in the photo on the freehostia site, predate this considerably and were for radio ariels. Full details can be found in the White Funnels series by Chris Collard.
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Thanks guys, always wondered about that
Clark
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Hi Andy. Any progress with hull lines for "Westward Ho"? I've got some wood now, but am a bit scared to cut anything until I know I'm doing the right thing. If you need to send anything by post, expenses happily met. Malcolm.
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Hi Malcolm,
Sorry for delay in replying, since my redundancy 2 weeks ago life has changed considerably and I am no longer blessed with idle paid hours infront of the office PC waiting for things to go wrong so havn't had chance to look on here too much.
I havn't had the chance to try and make the document work on here either, so think posting is the only way to go if this is gonna get to you in the near future.
Send me your address in a personal message, and I will send a paper copy to you, that I can manage!
Cheers 8)