Paddleducks
Paddler Modelling => Construction => Topic started by: Talisman on March 21, 2009, 06:05:45 AM
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Now that i have a bit of space i will start on the building of Talisman 1.
My Dad started this project a long time ago and is long overdue some attention. So here goes....
First of all can i ask for some help, I'm very short on pics of the actual boat, she's an Old Lady but there must be pictures gathering dust in somebody's collection?
Ok, first thing i have turned my attention to is the Paddles. probably not the usual fist step but with out them shes going to be a bit sad looking. My dad had started building a set of paddles however I'm investigating having paddles manufactured and today i spent a few frustrating hours trying to figure out how to draw in corel draw. Results below.
Next thing is to get the hull on the bench and the plans copied take measurements, scratch head, measure again ..... You know how it goes.
Ok, a couple of pics to get us started and would really appreciate seeing an pics that you may have.
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I'm delighted you've decided to document your build of the Talisman Kim, I'm sure it will be of great interest to all our members!
I did a quick search, but didn't come up with very much, except for a photo of her paddlebox which may help?
Regards
Eddy
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Hi,
Eddy i have that photo allready but thanks for posting it.
Another question, Its only a thought at the moment so please don't shoot me down just yet :0
(Can't seem to locate the Talisman's plans at the moment, probably been lent to somebody so need to try and track them down)
I have plans for the Kenilworth And on the face of it (no measurements taken at the moment) she looks very similar and also much easier to get info for her.
Does anyone know if the Kenilworth might be a suitable alternative should the plans have gone astray?
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Kim,
I've just checked the dimensions of both ships, if it's the 1898 version of Kenilworth, it's exactly the same length as Talisman at 215 feet, and it's 2" wider in the beam - Talisman 23 feet, Kenilworth 23 feet 2 inches.
Hardly enough for anyone to notice!!
Regards
Eddy
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Great news thanks for that.
She's being built at 1/2 inch to the foot but even then i think a blind man passing in a bus won't notice the error :)
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Great news thanks for that.
She's being built at 1/2 inch to the foot but even then i think a blind man passing in a bus won't notice the error :)
Your building at what scale!! Good grief, that will give a model that is 9 feet long!!!
I hope you have a BIG van and a strong back!! :)
Regards
Eddy
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Yep shes big.
If you look at the first photo you'll see a 20p coin to give an idea of size of paddles.
At the moment in considering buildind a small extension on the shed or making a new bench in the loft to fit the hull.
There seemed to be a 'craze' of build big scale models in the late 70's early 80's up here.
Given the choice a smaller scale would have been preferable :)
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Hi PD's.....well Talisman..... ::) my guess is that the paddles will be about 8 1/2"OD [on the major diameter] :sorry but :great
In OZ...we do not know the size of a British 20P coin...& there was TOO much reflection against the 1' ruler...so I saw on the anvil of the micrometer 0:25 so guessed this was the same as a 0 to 1" & approximated it from there :whistle
Opps....when I look at your Photoshop image it appears as 7 3/4" OD......:porkies ......Derek
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......:porkies
Ok just for you derek here is the measurement of the wheel as is at the moment.
Dia between the centres of the brass rods as pictured on the paddle on the LEFtT hand side.
180mm (sory most of my measurements will probably come in new money style :)
(7 1/8th old money?? )
So with blades on it should come out at about 8.5 inch Dia there or there abouts....
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Ok, next question,
Can anybody recomend a good supplier of M1 nuts and bolts in brass (or the ba equivilant although i would need to buy a tap and die to go that route)
Many thanks
K
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Hi Kim, there sre four photographs of Talisman(1) in our own Alistair Deaytons book STEAMERS OF THE CLYDE. N.B. AND LNER in chapter six which covers talisman and Kenilworth. I will check some other of my books as i seem to think she was pretty well covered photographicaly. Also, Talisman had a sister ship I believe though its name escapes me! regards, Walter.
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Thanks Walter, I have the book and thats about the best source i have found so far....
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Hi PD's......Talisman....14 BA = 1.0 mm diameter & that would be is a baby to work with......but should be certainly available .......[any more than a light spray of enamel & they would be lost as a BLOB]
[I am using 10 BA~~~~ 1.6 mm diameter] for Decoy @ 1:24 scale
Here is a snap of a steam chest with 10 BA as securing fastners .........
BTW...in OZ, a $1.00 coin is 25 mm diameter....I had to borrow one for the .jpg.......:sobbing....Derek
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Hi Talisman,
i know a few supplier for small screws, bolts and nuts in different materials steel, brass copper and much more. But they are all in Germany, don't hesitate to ask if you want the addresses of them.
regards Hans
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Hello Talisman,
This company have what you need. I use them all of the time and are super fast with next day delivery if you phone in with your order. Highly recommended to all Paddleduck modellers out there.
Robert
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Thanks for the replies re nuts and bolts.
I think the way forward will be to use rivets to secure the floats as 12ba nuts and bolts for this job alone is not going to leave much change from £50.00.
However on my troll for answers i have stumble across some sites which may be of interest.
http://www.modellersmate.co.uk/nuts_&_bolts.htm
http://www.scottishtransport.org/clyde_fleet_iii#Next
https://vault1.secured-url.com/reeves2000/shop_subcategory.asp?cat_id=12
Today i rolled out and dusted of the plans for Kenilworth.
On fist site i was excited as it looks like a fairly simple arrangement. Ok yes you could just cut out shapes glue them on and on the water she would probably do as a model but on further inspection of the plans you realise that on a model at this scale the real work is in the finer detail.
Unfortunately the plans are very old and faded so don't photograph very well.
Some initial thoughts on the build, your comments, experience & suggestions please...
Deck - on this size it should be possible to build in camber and sheer. Perhaps 'real' planking would be an option? what wood would you recommend? Suppliers?
Rudder - Would a standard sized servo have enough power for a rudder that will be approx 8cm x 6cm - Should be shouldn't it ??
Drive motor - Given the size of the paddlewheels do you know of a suitable motor - ideally capable of low revs high torque with as little gearing as possible to the drive shaft. I hate noisy motors and gears. Was thinking of the mobile marine T12, Any opinions???
Scale people - anybody know of a decent supplier of people of this scale ideally attired circa 1900?
Ok enough questions for the moment I'm off to troll eBay for dolls house stuff for inspiration...
As allways thanks in advance...
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Oops almost forgot,
I seem to have mislaid James Lanes details and catalogue.
Can someone tell me if he does 1:24 three ball and capping rail spiked stanchions and his phone number please.
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How about one of these Kim?
I've included a 12" rule to give you an idea of size.... These are LARGE motors with masses of torque. Using the included belt and pulleys, it gives approx 140 RPM on 12 volts. Current draw is tiny, less than 0.25A under load with a stall current of only about 2A.
They come from electric scooters, and one of our club members can get almost any quantity - Cost last time I bought some was around £25 complete.
The large pulley doesn't come with an insert, so you need to have an insert machined to suit your shaft diameter, but other than that they are ready to install and go....
Regards
Eddy
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For figures, take a look at George Turner Models:
http://www.georgeturnermodels.com/index.php?page=shopping&shop_cat_id=19
Regards
Eddy
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Looks good Eddy, any idea what rpm without reduction? How many poles ?
Just in case not that its likely to be an issue, what weight is it? ( might be a nice motor in the next project but that won't be for a while yet.....
How do you order them ?
Just had a look at some dolls house stuff blimey its expensive ....
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Looks good Eddy, any idea what rpm without reduction? How many poles ?
Just in case not that its likely to be an issue, what weight is it? ( might be a nice motor in the next project but that won't be for a while yet.....
How do you order them ?
Just had a look at some dolls house stuff blimey its expensive ....
On 12v it's approx 1400 RPM unloaded speed. Got no idea how many poles as it's a sealed can, so there's no easy way to check, but I'd imagine it's about 11 pole from the feel of it when turning it over. Weight is approx 1.1Kg
If you need one, just give me a yell and I'll sort it for you - May take a couple of weeks. Price is exactly what I have to pay (around £25) plus postage.
Regards
Eddy
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Hi, Eddy that sounds great! Should be ideal for next project also. I suspect the cost of this project may slow down the start of the next one ;D
Have found some nice people to have aboard the model. I suspect the maiden voyage may be lightly loaded with only crew and the family aboard especially at these prices ;D
http://cgi.ebay.com/G-Scale-1-24-1-22-5-Lot-of-2-Preiser-Passenger-Figures_W0QQitemZ200318596286QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item200318596286&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262
Perhaps you could give me some more detail re the motor Eddy where to send check etc
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Let me check on the current price and make sure the guy has some Kim.... I'll get back to you on it and let you have exact costs etc.
Regards
Eddy
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Last night before going to bed i dug out my copy of Alistair Deaton's book and there it was staring me in the face '' In 1898 Kenilworth, a sister of Talisman.....''
Great so the set of plans for the Kenilworth will be of use.
this morning i have been running round with tape measure set at 107 inch to find a suitable surface to use that will cause the least amount of arguments from the wife.
Another correction to an earlier question is the stanchions are 2 ball and rail so this afternoons plan is to get some cotter pins and have a play at making my own.
Also going to look into dolls house stairways that should be a good project to get a bit of building underway. cant seem to find a suitable ready made window so might look at making a window myself and cast them in clear cast resin.
Thanks for getting back to me Eddy i have had a good rummage of the internet for motors and the one you have ascribed does seem to fit the bill rather well assuming it is reversable.
Ok off to do a bit of work now will report back with any developments this eve....
Hi Kim, there sre four photographs of Talisman(1) in our own Alistair Deaytons book STEAMERS OF THE CLYDE. N.B. AND LNER in chapter six which covers talisman and Kenilworth. I will check some other of my books as i seem to think she was pretty well covered photographicaly. Also, Talisman had a sister ship I believe though its name escapes me! regards, Walter.
Kenilworth :)
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Okay Kim,
I've checked on the motors and they are available..... Price is as I said, £25 plus postage. And yes they are reversible, I have two ready for a paddletug when I eventually get round to building it!!
One thing I forgot to mention - The motors are rated at 24v, so if you happen to find them a bit slow on 12v you can up the voltage as long as your speed controller will handle it. I was planning on running at 18v for the tug to give it a bit of "oomph" :)
Regards
Eddy
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Those are very nice looking figures! but are they 1/24th or G-scale (1/22.5) as far as I know, Preiser make both! The model shop I use have almost all the preiser figures in stock at the moment (but unfortunately not the victorian looking ones) and also have stairways, furniture etc in 1/24th.... http://www.yellowcatshop.co.uk/shop/default.asp?clientid=14&gid=4dmod
staircases - http://www.yellowcatshop.co.uk/shop/default.asp?clientid=14&gid=4dmod&viewstate=32769&tabcatid=3500087&subcatid=3500096 - see -1/25th open stairs...
figures - http://www.yellowcatshop.co.uk/shop/default.asp?clientid=14&gid=4dmod&viewstate=32769&tabcatid=3500087&subcatid=3500092 - scroll down to 1/24th (they're noticeably smaller than 1/22.5 which suit LGB 'G-scale/guage' railways!)
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Hmm the listing says 1:24 but if you click his link '' what do you mean there are 5 g scales''
He says
''Preiser accomplishes this difference effectively because the male figure will usually be between 6 feet to 6 feet-three inches tall in 1/24 scale. The same figure in 1/22.5 will, of course be shorter (because we are now working in a larger scale) between about five feet-nine inches and five feet-eleven inches tall. If this sounds a little strange to you, you're not alone.''
I don't plan to put that many figures on board mainly based on there cost - usually I'd like to see loads of people on board but not on this occasion - perhaps over time i can add people.
Had great fun today looking at all the different items available in 1/24 this scale does seem to lend it self to fine detail i.e the tables in the dining room could be furnished with knifes, forks plates a water jug and of course a cake...
Interestingly looking at the plans again there was a fruit stall on board ...
i have bought enough bits and bobs to make the two main stairways so with any luck they will be with me shortly
i have also set up shop in the loft and busy putting lighting in there this eve so should be ready to get the hull on the bench ready for building by the weekend (fingers crossed)
Tomorrow's fist job is to get in touch with an engineering firm which have been looking over my computer art work and hopefully they should be able to give me a price for the cutting of the paddle wheel components. Boss and other bits i will do myself.
Rivets were also ordered today. All being well the paddles should be as simple as putting together a kit ( if my measuring and drawing skills haven't failed me )
Last we bit of interest
there is a nice pic on eBay showing an early Talisman 1 a bit pricey for a small pic esp as I'm doing her with bridge forward and wide superstructure..
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=300301732452
Ok enough for today
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Talisman,
I had an article published in MODEL BOATS in June 1982, on my build of TALISMAN which I built at 3/16" to the foot.
I have a few photos of that vessel so if you need any help, send me a PM.
I have just downloaded my drawing of her, in paddle ducks, Sandy
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Ah, that's the newer (comparitively) diesel electric powered one, I think he intends to build the older one, looking at the picture earlier in this thread...
...I must have missed Model Boats magazine for a few months around that time as I'd never seen this article! :o
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Sandy its is as said the earlier Talisman I'm building. I have just sold my Talisman hull to helps clear the way for this build. To be honest i had lost interest in the Talisman but this build excite me.
OK, i have been off work for a couple of weeks now after a bad skiing accident but unfortunately / fortunately ??? I'm fit to go back to work now. Don't you just hate it when work getsin the way of a hobby.
Update on how preparations are going....
Motor to be supplied by Eddy looks like just the job slow revving and bags of torque. Thanks Eddy for suggesting it.
stairways handrails and spindles All bought from a 1/24th scale model dolls house shop.
with some veneer, wood stain and brass they should look good and save a bit of time in the build.
Superstructure thin ply and veneer to come from stock
Rudder brass plate, round bar, rivets tap and die all ordered.
Paddle wheels Parts drawn, measured, printed, remeasured, redrawn, reprinted
finally got a set of computer .dfx files that i',m happy with and off to be laser cut from aluminium (rims) brass blades. All rivets and punches arrived this morning.
Windows cut and mould made awaiting RTV silicone, clearcast resin arrived today.
Decks - Not to sure on the way to go with decks. Probably be better to wait until the Hull is in place and decide what the best way of making them will be then. Initial thoughts are mold the decks in thin fiberglass and then use veneer to plank thus alllowing for camber and sheer.
Lifeboats ordered from quay craft.
So not a bad start just need to wait a few days till i have time to get the Hull across and then we start the exciting stuff....
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Kim,
I have to admit that I'm almost as excited as you about this model.... it's way bigger than anything I would attempt, but fascinating all the same!
Can I ask where you got your 1:24 railings and stairs etc from? I have an idea for another project where they could be useful!
Regards
Eddy
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hi, i used this site as they had all i needed in stock. 1:24 and smaller scales seem to be more popular with dolls house builders. never thought id see the day when looking at dols house stuff would keep me amused for hours ;D
http://www.mollys-house.co.uk/
http://mollyshouse.wahmworld.com/store/
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I do like some of these carts they would look great loaded with luggage on deck but a bit expensive.
http://www.phoenixmodeldevelopments.com/acatalog/Carts_and_Barrows_1_24.html
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Some bits came through the door today.
I could be converted to work 1:24 the detail at this scale is good.
(Next project is going to be Denny's S.S. Sir Walter Scot at 1:24 - which gives a hull length of approx 42 inch )
First thing to arrive was some unpainted figures from a shop in China. Being sceptical about the standard of figures i ordered the min quantity i could expecting them to be of poor quality.
I was surprised for less than £7.00 delivered from china i received 24 assorted figures (inc 3 types Children). The quality is spot on and they are definitely of the prieser variety.
The only problem i have with them is some of them are a wee bit modern looking and will need some modification to fit in with the 1900 fashion. No ladies jump suits back then were there ? :)
Next up was stairs banister and newel posts. the stairs are a wee bit ruff / fluffy as they have been cut from MDF. Not to worry they will be covered with veneer and brass edging, stained and should come out looking good with a bit of effort.
A couple of pics of 1:24 people from China against 1:48 preiser people.
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Ok, now it starts to get interesting....
Today i collected the hull and brought it home complete with approx 25 years worth of dust and spiders web's. The wife allowed a brief stop on the dinning table for a hoover and a couple of pics before it was ordered to the bench.
I think I'm allowed to say this as it is not my handy work but it does look good to me.
I can only imagine that worked stopped on the boat as it is 14kg (2.2 stone) in its present form and a lot of work still to go.
This evening's plan is to start comparing the plans to the hull and make a plan of attack..
So far i have had little joy trying to get a company to laser cut the wheels for me one company has been messing me around for a month ... the battle continues
Hopefully not be to long before serious building gets underway, watch this space.....
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Just for ref the 1:48 maid is the same size as the full sponson :)
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My god that's BIG Kim, but I bet it will look fantastic on the water!!
Regards
Eddy
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This eve i had a play on the lathe. I say play as i have had no formal training and every project is a learn by discovery affair.
I made an insert for my pulley which Eddy supplied me with. it looks great and i was dead chuffed with myself until i found it is very slightly off centre :-\
So a trawl of the internet and i came up with this site.
http://www.motionco.co.uk/
A phone call to be made on Monday.
Now looking for some help / information
I really have been struggling to find a company to make my paddlewheels or at least the rims and floats.
I have produced the drawings in .dfx which i believe is what they need.
My problem is that despite making payment a month on and the company still cannot do the work. I'm at my wits end with them and now need to find a new supplier... :squareone
So, can anyone recommend a company who would be prepared to do this work for me, anyone you have used or recommend?
Thanks in advance
Kim
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A friend of mine is running one of these motors/pulleys in a large paddletug Kim - He made an insert just using a pillar drill and hand tools, so it's way off centre!! Not just a little bit, but maybe as much as 1/8"
Surprisingly, it still works perfectly - With the belt very slack to allow for the movement. He's never had the belt jump or come off..... it doesn't look very pretty, but it does work!
Regards
Eddy
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Hi Eddy, after doing the costing on running gear i think a little 'wobble' in the system might have to be acceptable. I have to say im not quite 1/8th out which for my low level of skill is quite an achievement.
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Blimey,i have just had a quote in to laser cut the rims, banjo wheel and paddle floats- to supply the material and cut i have been quoted £264.00 :o
Now where did i put my hacksaw and files...
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A bit of work done ...
Bow and stern decks scibed lined and varnished.
Bushes cut for drive shaft and rudder.
Rudder assembled and roughly shaped.
Steering bracket fashioned from a spare Mecano sprocket.
Stern windows cut (not convinced this is right will need to do a wee bit more reaserch before putting them on - did she have windows at the stern??? )
Motor molded in silicone for the motor mount.
Doesn't seem much to show given the amount of time it has taken. Like i say its going to be a long build
Found a great shot of the Kenilworth, why do these pics fetch such a high price ???
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SCOTTISH-PADDLE-STEAMER-KENILWORTH-MINESWEEPER_W0QQitemZ370193512452QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Nautical?hash=item370193512452&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A7%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
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It is amazing how some bits seem to take forever to do isn't it?
But progress has been made Kim, so that's always good! :)
I can see a race coming.... Sir William Wallace and Talisman, which will hit the water first, and which will be completed first? Who wants to run a book on them?
Regards
Eddy
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No race Eddy just a deadline of September.if someone is taking bets i'll stick 2p on Eddy being first...
I would love to come down to the paddler day and to bring this old lady and Jupiter, would really make the journey worthwhile....
< runs back to the bench :)
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hehehehe only kidding about the race Kim - In fact my plans have been delayed a little, so you can get a head start on me.....
I was hoping to get my hull back today, but it isn't ready yet so it will be sunday....
Eddy
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Not able to do any building today but i did manage to get a bit of research done this eve. I can't figure out if there were windows at the stern or not. After a few hours of trawling the net still no answer. Not a waste of time i have come across some great pictures and a site that is new to me.
I did come across some great pics which might be of interest to Eddy and Ken links bellow
Columba
http://special.st-andrews.ac.uk/saspecial/index.php?a=subjects&s=zoom&key=SYToyOntpOjA7aToyNTU3O2k6MTtzOjI1OiJDb2xsZWN0aW9uIC0gU21pdGgsIFIgTiBXIjt9&pg=246
Columba paddle wheels
http://special.st-andrews.ac.uk/saspecial/index.php?a=subjects&s=zoom&key=SYToyOntpOjA7aToxNzc5O2k6MTtzOjIyOiJzdGVhbSB2ZXNzZWxzIC0gcGFkZGxlIjt9&pg=15
Queen Margaret
http://special.st-andrews.ac.uk/saspecial/index.php?a=subjects&s=zoom&key=SYToyOntpOjA7aToxNzcwO2k6MTtzOjc6ImZlcnJpZXMiO30=&pg=5
Robert Bruce
http://special.st-andrews.ac.uk/saspecial/index.php?a=subjects&s=zoom&key=SYToyOntpOjA7aToxNzcwO2k6MTtzOjc6ImZlcnJpZXMiO30=&pg=24
great site and i still have loads to look at but my eyes are going a bit square now....
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Well PD's.....I thought that I had seeeeen all ....but never a cast resilient motor mounting like this actually encasing the lower section of the motor..... :hammer....brilliant :whistle...but are there sufficient "obstacle's" attached to the motor casing to lock into the silicone material?.........do you have a method of attachment [feet pre-cast into the underside?] :kewlpics
Seeing the toothed belt pinion on the motor.......will this sit athwart ships & simply drive the paddle shaft via a reduction?
Tell us more..........Derek
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Thank you for the pictures, Talisman. Some detail there that will be helpful indeed.
Have not got around to starting her yet, but building up all the information I can
Cheers
Ken
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Tell us more..........Derek
Derek as soon as i know what the plan is i will let you know :thinking :thinking
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OK PD's......I must :respect...your build time Talisman................as my build of Decoy is approx 9 year old....... :sobbing :sorry ........Derek
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Ok Derek i have an answer.
No flash engineering i'm affraid just a simple solution which does seem to work .
I gave in and bought a Large pulley and new belt and i'm really happy with the results. Very queit, bags of torque and a really nice rpm.
Details
Base - Plywood
moulding - Silicone
Sides -Ply
Clamps - make your own Jubilee clip kit.
Simples !! :)
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A very neat way of mounting the motor Kim.... Can I ask where you got the new pulley and belt? And do the teeth match with the original pulley on the motor?
Regards
Eddy
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Hi Eddy,
Had the motor running today and it is perfect for the job :)
Pulleys and belts from this company.
http://www.motionco.co.uk
Belts are - 3 mm HTD pitch and teeth fit perfectly. I had to buy a belt as the width of the original belt is to wide.
Pulleys need drilled and tapped to secure
hope that helps
Kim
Edit they have a calculator which works out the distances between the shaft centres which is handy:)
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Ok :thinking time again and a couple of questions for you all
First is regarding the paddle wheels -
i was going to have the paddles laser cut from brass and Aluminium however this is proving difficult and expensive so new thinking is -
Rims laser cut from 1.5mm Aluminium cost £8.50 each + vat + Postage
Banjo wheel laser cut from 1.5 mm brass. cost 4.50 + vat + postage
floats and brackets form 0.8mm brass £189.00 :o :o + vat + postage
A cheaper option for the floats and brackets might be to have them cut from 1mm printed circuit board material.
My worry is will they be strong enough to cope with jammed twigs etc?? any thoughts??
Working tomorrow, Monday before i can do much about this part of the build and would really appreciate any imput even if it is to say i'm lazy and should just get on and build the things :)
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My other question is
is drawn steel ( being used for the shafts in pics above) resist rust or should i hunt down a length of silver steel?
Thanks in advance
Kim
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Why have all the floats laser cut Kim? They are simple enough to make with only a bandsaw surely?
Personally I'd use brass rod or silver steel for the axle - I once made a paddler with a mild steel axle and it rusted solid when it was stored for 3 months without being used!
Eddy
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I think I will probably cut the floats myself Eddy i just fancy the accuracy of laser cut wheels but at the price i have been quoted the attraction is waring off.
Will probably still go for laser cut rims, banjo wheels and brackets as my level of skill & accuracy isn't going to make as nice a job. Can't go to far wrong with the floats i guess ...
Thanks for the info on the steel i almost knew at £3.00 a meter from B&Q it was not the right stuff.
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Details
Base - Plywood
moulding - Silicone
Sides -Ply
Clamps - make your own Jubilee clip kit.
Simples !! :)
Hi Talisman
With reference to your Jubilee clip. Why didn't I think of that. My thoughts with writing were that I have large steel springs around my motor and found the 'metal on metal' contact transmitted the vibration noise to the hull. I fitted a rubber block underneath the springs and she went much quieter. Just a thought.
Also you are worried about catching twigs in the blades and stalling something. On mine I have secured the large (driven) wheel with a copper pin through the shaft. On a stall I'm hoping it will shear and prevent damage to the paddles. I have used a brass shaft going through 'Oilite bearings' so , hopefully won't be bothered with rust.
Hope this helps
ken
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Progress report from the Dust Creation and Mistakes Department.... :hammer
Ken thanks for your thoughts on noise reduction .. fortunately the 1kg (approx) or silicone rubber absorbs any vibration. The motor is a 12 pole with bearings at either end so noise from the motor really isn't a problem. The pulleys if set to run square give of no noise. Infact when i had it all loosely assembled the loudest thing was the shaft turning in the brass bushes. You can imagine I'm well chuffed :)
Latest work has been the superstructures. For such a simple arrangement it has taken me a fair while to get them to their present state.
Bridge still requires 'wings', Aft structure ( longer of the two) requires roof box & edging on the roof. Top of the aft cabin has been painted to look like canvas which I'm guessing was used to waterproof the roof. If anyone knows different please let me know.
Many thanks
Kim
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It's all progressing nicely Kim..... I can see that the race is on! :)
I don't even have any motors for the SWW, and because of my daughters birthday today and club day tomorrow, that's two days lost for my build :(
I'm glad your happy with the motor - Sadly I cannot use two of those as they are too big to fit below the deck on my very shallow hull, so I'm hoping I can pick up something at the Harrogate model engineering show this weekend.
Regards
Eddy
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Eddy, on one of my many trolls around Ebay before you came up with a solution i found a great motor
Spec :
12 v electric motor.
Motor spec:-
Body: 52mm dia 85mm long
Shaft: single end 5.0mm dia ballraced
Commutator: 12 pole, low noise
Voltage: 12v DC
No load RPM: 6700 1.2A
Max efficiency: 5250rpm, 1500g cm, 80w, 12A, efficiency 55%
Max power: 3200rpm, 3500g cm, 115w, 24A
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12-v-ELECTRIC-MOTOR-12v-PRICE-INCLUDES-POSTAGE_W0QQitemZ290314955805QQihZ019QQcategoryZ26209QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
I bought one and as soon as i had a look at it in the flesh i stock piled them just in case...
Not sure if it helps but can definitely recommend these motors and at £10 inc postage not a bad price.
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It's all progressing nicely Kim..... I can see that the race is on! :)
I've got 2 New Pence bet on you winning Eddy so stop it with the days off please :)
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Thanks Kim, nice looking motors, the only problem is they would need a gear reduction of around 50:1
I'll keep looking, but I do have a fallback solution if all else fails :)
Regards
Eddy
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A trip to the Model shop via Ikea....
Today i took my wife out for a special treat a trip to the model shop with the promise of breakfast on route..... :hehe
We stopped at Ikea for Breakfast. 99p for a breakfast including coffee how do they do it ?...
First bit of treasure i got my hands on were the wooden stirring sticks. Ideal i though while stirring my coffee before stuffing my face ...
These will be great for making a Gangway or two so a stock was acquired.
Next up was a set of four sauce dishes (not sure if that is their correct name) Ventilator sprang to mind £1.99 for four stainless steel bowls at the correct dia.
At the checkout i noticed some artificial tea lights with a nice warm glow from an led. I need two sizes of cowl these just happen to be correct dia for the second set of cowls. On getting them home i managed to remove the innards which no doubt will be used within the hull for a nice glow. they have the dinkiest little switch, are lightweight & run on 3v (supplied by a watch type battery)
The Main event ... the model shop
4 sheets of ply 1 sheets of balsa and a far lighter wallet were done. Back to the bench. Nope wife has other ideas. A painfull hour being dragged around PradaMark and were home... :)
The owner of the model shop might be able to get my paddle wheels cut for me so fingers firmly crossed .....
Back at the bench and it was another dusty afternoon..
Paddle sponsons and bits measured & cut.
A good day...
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The snag with taking the wife to the modelling shop is that she gets to know how much things cost!! Not a good move! :)
I've got nothing done this week at all.... Monday taxi duty, tuesday daughters birthday, wednesday club day, today taxi duty again, and tomorrow I'm off to the model engineering show at Harrogate......
Eddy
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While the sun shines Eddy .... Unfortunately i feel there may be rain over the Horizon :(
I meant to say :birth to your Daughter Eddy but in all the excitment i forgot. I hope you all had a good day
Regards
Kim
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Hi Kim
Thanks for the information about Ikea. Great thinking there. I've been collecting 'MacDonalds free coffee stickers lately, (mind you, their Buns are fattening!!) and whilst there, grabbing a handful of their coffee stirer sticks. Lovely bit of wood. Might find a use for them one day. ;)
ken
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101 uses for coffee stiring sticks...
Yep Ken your right they are nice. First use for me was mixing epoxy much nicer than the usual piece of scrap :)
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I picked up a box of 1,000 coffee stiring sticks at staple office supply on clearence for $0.99. All of the same size which you don't get picking them up a few at a time. The Ikea breakfast can be a good thing, but the manager did give us a look when we showed up with 35 Cubs and Scouts.
Regards,
Gerald.
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Kim,
Have you tried using anglers fishing floats for cowal vents?
They come in different diameters and I cut them in "half" just past the halfway join so that it gives them a bit of a lip but unfortuneately you can only get one vent out of one float that way. Epoxied on to dowel they do the trick! Sandy
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Good ideas Sandy. May use them in future thanks.
Only time for an hours work this eve so only time to rough cut the vents in the paddle boxes.
The Builder's drawings don't have an elevation of the boxes and vents so Photos, scale dividers & guesstimating for this job.
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Talisman,
Your paddlebox fan vents look great,- I enlarged a side-on photo of Waverley to do mine accurately...these small things make all the difference in my opinion.
What condition are you modelling Talisman/Kenilworth in , as built, or later with bridge forward, or grey hull?
Clark
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101 uses for coffee stiring sticks...
Yep Ken your right they are nice. First use for me was mixing epoxy much nicer than the usual piece of scrap :)
I got something similar from McDonalds and use them for stirring paint, mixing adhesive etc. I'd intended to use them for something like the bridge surround but found they seemed to be impregnated with wax or something and resist woodstain and adhesive too well to be used...
For large (but light weight) cowl vents I found the plastic 'eggs' (with cheap toys inside) you get in slot machines outside newsagents are ideal, just stick the styrene half (the coloured half is vinyl-type plastic) on a length of styrene tube..cost about 20p each - or pick up the discarded ones off the ground!
Those tea-lights sound like a great idea if you want a flickering flame-effect for candle or oil lamps on a model, should be possible to hide the circuits inside the hull with wire to the lamps, and tint the LED using coloured laquer....leaded window stuff should work (I'm thinking of something like the lamps used on the Ben Ain...)
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Talisman,
Your paddlebox fan vents look great,- I enlarged a side-on photo of Waverley to do mine accurately...these small things make all the difference in my opinion.
Yep i agree, but i have had to guestimate these bits a little. Don't worry if there not right i will try again.
Just for info the Kenilworth vents are slightly different. pic below
What condition are you modelling Talisman/Kenilworth in , as built, or later with bridge forward, or grey hull?
Clark
She will be named Talisman and detailed as far as possible on 1934 condition. i.e. wider salon, black hul, panneling detail, brige infront of funnel etc.
One of the best pics i can find is on page 44 of Alistair Deaton's book Steamers of the Clyde NB& LNER
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Hi Kim,
yes I think she looks better with wider saloon & bridge forward. I did a small amount of repair work to a waterline Kenilworth in that condition for a local museum.
The panelling & lining look smart.
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Hi Kim,
yes I think she looks better with wider saloon & bridge forward. I did a small amount of repair work to a waterline Kenilworth in that condition for a local museum.
The panelling & lining look smart.
I'd be really interested to see any photos you may have or where i could see the model.
Looking smart usually means more work :(
Taking the evening off as my nose is blocked either Swine Flu (the man strain) or a sawdust overdose.
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Kim, The Kenilworth is in the Castle house museum in Dunoon, I dont think you would learn much from it, its only bout 20cm long, part of a waterline collection. all the original lining was done by hand, its good for a small scale. I just remasted & rerigged her & a tidy up. No photos im afraid.
However if you get a chance to visit the museum, there are several large models belonging to Sandystrone, well worth a look.
Oh I found those Steamer Club photos, just posting them onto "powered craft"
Clark
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Will have a look at the museum next time I'm in Dunoon.
Well i couldn't bear to do nothing this eve so i have cut all the Paddle box fans and the back plates.
I will hold off assembly until i either pluck up the courage to build the wheels myself or win the lottery and have them cut.
Next job is the windows on the side of the hull. Fortunately for me the S'board side have been cut and the port side are almost all marked. The unfortunate part is that each window on s'board has a frame around the window. this has been done by removing one veneer of the ply. Time to dig out and sharpen some chisels.
I have cherry picked my way at the build so far and now the detailed stuff begins and as Clark says that the bit that makes the difference so build may slow a little... Catch up time Eddy :)
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Hi all, well today I achieved nothing :(
This blocked nose and sneezing is a pain.
I have been thinking about the paddles again. I find the prospect of self building quite daunting. Unfortunately they are not going to build themselves and I'm not paying £200+ for someone to cut them so i have decided to go ahead and build them myself.
I have decided to build them using Aluminium, a couple of reasons lighter, easier to work and a dam site cheaper than brass.
If any of you have any tips I'd really like to hear them.
I will use the Inch to the foot drawings from the Waverly. I have allready drawn them in Cad so that part is behind me.
I have ordered a4 self adhesive labels and will print the drawings on them then stick them directly to the sheets of aluminium. If anyone has a better way please let me know.
I went out to the shed to turn a boss this eve and i sneezed jammed the tool in the metal and shattered a gear in the lathe. Not the best start.... ::)
I think i will lay off building until I'm feeling better....
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Hi all, well today I achieved nothing :(
This blocked nose and sneezing is a pain.
Sounds like Swine Flu to me..... You can easily tell, those that have it tend to come out in rashers..... Don't bother phoing the NHS helpline, all you get is a god aweful connection with crackling on the line :hehe
I have been thinking about the paddles again. I find the prospect of self building quite daunting. Unfortunately they are not going to build themselves and I'm not paying £200+ for someone to cut them so i have decided to go ahead and build them myself.
I have decided to build them using Aluminium, a couple of reasons lighter, easier to work and a dam site cheaper than brass.
If any of you have any tips I'd really like to hear them.
I will use the Inch to the foot drawings from the Waverly. I have allready drawn them in Cad so that part is behind me.
I have ordered a4 self adhesive labels and will print the drawings on them then stick them directly to the sheets of aluminium. If anyone has a better way please let me know.
Using self adhesive labels sounds like a good way to go to me.... Why didn't I think of that?
I went out to the shed to turn a boss this eve and i sneezed jammed the tool in the metal and shattered a gear in the lathe. Not the best start.... ::)
I think i will lay off building until I'm feeling better....
Sounds like an expensive mistake Kim! :(
Regards
Eddy
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Talisman,
I had an article published in MODEL BOATS in June 1982, on my build of TALISMAN which I built at 3/16" to the foot.
I have a few photos of that vessel so if you need any help, send me a PM.
I have just downloaded my drawing of her, in paddle ducks, Sandy
Hi sandy , can't lay my hands on the article at the moment but was that the one published over 4 issues ? If so it was your fault that I ended up buying the plans back in 82 Ish unfortunately not a lot has happened since then , I did make some ribs but they were lost in the move.
Talisman hopefully this thread will get me going again one day or though I do have a number of projects on the go at the moment..
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Eddy the wife ( a nurse) says its not Swine flu but a swine with flu....
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Talisman hopefully this thread will get me going again one day or though I do have a number of projects on the go at the moment..
Go for it ... the number of projects on the go sounds familiar .... :) I had to let some of my past efforts and projects go recently as a peace offering to the wife to be allowed this project to happen.
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1 down 15 to go.....
When i got in this afternoon i bit the bullet and made a start on the Paddlewheels.
I am waiting for a delivery of brass to make the wheels but i managed to make a start on the floats with stock aluminium.
The paddle wheels have been the part of building which has allways put me off building a paddler.
I know that most of you will be fairly unimpressed but for me this is a milestone in my building career. I chuffed :)
I copied all my drawings onto address labels attached them to the metal, snipped the rough shapes out then a lot of filing and et voila something that resembles a paddle float. I'd prefer them to be curved but one step at a time...
I did try one with rivets but prefer them to be bolted in case i need to replace them in time.
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The paddle wheels have been the part of building which has allways put me off building a paddler.
It is for everyone Kim, so your not alone there!!
I know that most of you will be fairly unimpressed but for me this is a milestone in my building career. I chuffed :)
it looks damned good to me mate!! Keep up the good work!
Regards
Eddy
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Kim, Have you thought of countersunk screws. When you get to the side pieces, it might prevent catching the heads during rotation. :whistle
ken
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Hi Ken thanks for your input. Have a look at the pic below it will probably explain the attachment plan better than words.
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I went out to the shed to turn a boss this eve and i sneezed jammed the tool in the metal and shattered a gear in the lathe. Not the best start.... ::)
I think i will lay off building until I'm feeling better....
Sounds like an expensive mistake Kim! :(
Regards
Eddy
[/quote]
Hi not to bad a mistake £4.50 + post. Should arrive tomorrow :)
Last night i finished off all my floats :)
Just waiting for new cog for my lathe and some aluminium to make the rims.
Took the hull out to the garden this afternoon to make a start on the Starboard side windows. managed to get the first lot done without to many mistakes . need to mark the rear windows and get them cut out next . After that there is not much for me to do this eve so might paint some people.
Got a very busy week ahead of me so not much time for building till end of next week. :(
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Hi All,
I managed to squeeze 3 hours in this eve and have 1 paddle rim to show for it.
I'm typing with my left hand as my right arm feels numb with all the filling.
A couple of pics..
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Very Nice , only another 7 to go ;D ;D
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;D
I'm tired and had to read you post several times in a state of panic, i only need to do 3 more thank goodness so approx 9 hours of filling to go :sobbing
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I, the other 4 are for me :angel , No it looks really good , some Patience there
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:hehe
Seriously though i don't mind posting my drawings into the Downloads section if Eddy will allow them and people could use them.
Only problem is what format should they be saved as so they retain their shape / size and can be used by most people . Perhaps a computer whizz kid could advise?
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;D
I'm tired and had to read you post several times in a state of panic, i only need to do 3 more thank goodness so approx 9 hours of filling to go :sobbing
Just thinking about this , would it not be easier to do 2 at the same time seeing as the meatl is quite thin, that way they will be cut exactly the same ?
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:hehe
Seriously though i don't mind posting my drawings into the Downloads section if Eddy will allow them and people could use them.
Only problem is what format should they be saved as so they retain their shape / size and can be used by most people . Perhaps a computer whizz kid could advise?
As long as the drawings aren't still in copyright we'd be very happy to have them Kim!
The best format is probably Adobe Acrobat (pdf files), as that's the easiest for most people to print. Most copy shops can handle that as well...
Regards
Eddy
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Hi Kim,
Don't know what cad package you have drawn your drawings in, but you should be able to print them out as a PDF file with a bit of luck. the pdf reader is free, so anyone can then download and print out actual size without to much hassle. Jpeg's, etc are a pain.
If the PDF option is not a goer for you, then if you generated a DXF file (every cad package can do that) then email to someone who has a cad package and Adobe, who can then generate the pdf file. (I could do it for you if you wish, just pm me)
I use the PDF option at home and work all the time to send drawings to clients, so no trouble to do one extra for you.
kiwi
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As long as the drawings aren't still in copyright we'd be very happy to have them Kim!
The best format is probably Adobe Acrobat (pdf files), as that's the easiest for most people to print. Most copy shops can handle that as well...
Regards
Eddy
Hi All,
The drawings were based on the Waverly drawings measurements and adaptions have been made to suit use on a model does that make them my drawings and free from copyright?? ?The drawings i would up load would just be drawings for cutting purposes.
I also have the same drawing in 1:48 scale which would probably be a more popular scale.
The drawings are in DFX but no idea if i know / can canvert them to pdf. Will look into it later today.
Probably be better to hang off untill the paddles are assembled and tested before possibly uploading duff drawings
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I suppose that if they have been significantly modified then they count as your work Kim - Who defines "significantly" is anyones guess! :)
Generally legal action is rarely if ever taken on these matters - If someone proves it's copyrighted material we would normally simply receive a request to remove them.
Eddy
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Hi all,
Thanks for the info Eddy. Will wait to see if the paddles work as they should before posting the drawings. I would say they have been significantly changed both in scale and appearance.
I managed to get the other rim done this eve and a very rough trial fit. They actually look as if they could work which is a very pleasant surprise.
Probably one of the most accurate pieces of work to leave my modelling desk :)
Comparing the Mk1 wheel against the new one makes me wonder if it was worth so much effort given they will be under the water and hidden in a paddle box.
Pics below.
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Are you going to have them feathering ?
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Hi, yes i do plan to have them feathering . That's the bit that's worries me the most.
I'm guessing my measurements need to be accurate for that bit.
I do tend to be a measure once then bodge it together not a measure twice cut once kind of builder, so fingers firmly crossed for that part of the build....
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Hi all.
Today i took a break from filling and got on with some fun stuff...
First i got the servo mount and pushrod cut and fitted ... we now have steerage :)
then i had a play with some nichrome wire and made a small smoke unit for my King George.
Initial test look good so a bigger version will be made for talisman. Hell of a lot cheaper than the off the shelf and satisfying to know it's your own work.
:)
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mmmmmmmmmmmm PD's...... :whistle....by the time the electronic image get's to OZ.....is this some steam kettle for a :coffee .........
but I know the answer :beer ....& he is doing a good job........Derek
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2 back 1 forward...
Hi All.
At the moment progress has slowed as the Paddlewheels are taking a lot longer than hoped. A miscalculation of the size of the paddle boxes has involved re making them. I would like to blame this error on the lack of drawings for this part of the build but I'm afraid to say it was me that forgot to measure correctly, Doh!...
Also a recent near sinking of one of my other boats has taken up a bit of my time and involved a partial rewire :(
At the moment i am working on
- Fixing the motor into the hull
- Final assembly of the paddle wheels a drive system.
As soon as this work is complete i will post pics and write a 'how i did it' piece.
I will also post the drawings of the paddlewheel components to the download section when i get the wheels built and checked.
If anyone is interested i will also do a bit on the smoke generator.
Bear in mind it is not CE approved, no BS kite mark and was not tested on animals so it should be considered builder beware if you choose to build and use one.
Hope to be back shortly...
Regards.,
Kim
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I'm sure there would be interest for write-ups on all of that stuff Kim, particularly the paddlewheels as it's the one area that puts most people off building a paddler!
With the smoke generator, has anyone found a way of producing large amounts of black smoke? Now that really would look the part!
Eddy
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A wee bit of an update..
Hi all,
Over the weekend i managed to get the hull and windows painted. (pic 7)
A bit of work on the Paddle Wheels. Slowly there is an end in site - knowing what i know now Graupner paddles do look more attractive for the time they save.
The wheels are taking a lot longer than i expected.
Despite my best efforts at keeping the measurements and drawings as accurate as i could a little human error has crept in, not that it matters to much to their operation but annoying given the amount of time i spent.
A little about the pics
Pic 1
Turning the boss and drilling the hole for the shaft. 10mm Silver steel rod should arrive by the end of the week. Fingers crossed.
Pic 2
Tapping for a retaining bolt.
I will use an m6 screw to hold the paddle on to the shaft no particular reason other than that was a size of tap and bolt i had to hand.
Pic 3
One rim bolted onto the boss using A2 stainless nyloc & bolts. (m2.5)
M3 rods were attached and checked for alignment the the second rim mounted, marked , drilled the attached.
Pic 4
Shows floats mounted on M3 rod. Washers/ spacers were cut from Silicon fuel line.
The rod further inside the wheel is M2 threaded rod and is used to keep the spacing and add strength. I could probably managed without this further strength but the holes were drilled and the materials purchased. A very footery job.
Pic 5
Shows the wheel nearly complete only needing the remainder of the m2 rods positioned and m3 rods trimmed.
Pic 6
Shows the eccentric wheel drilled and mounter on a nice piece of shaped brass. ( mirror mount from B&Q)
This will be bent at right angles along the base to allow mounting on the paddle boxes.
Again silicon washers cut from fuel line will be used.
To connect the floats to the eccentric disc i will use m2 threaded rod and bolts with a 'blob' of solder on the ends. They should look OK as the paint will probably cover the thread. I can live with that after considering buying rod and only taping the ends. The price of a small enough rod, nuts & a die sorted that decision for me.
Next....
I need to finish the paddle boxes and mount.
Cut the 1m of Silver steel rod to length.
mount the shaft bushes.
Then a trial fit of the paddle wheels Then i can measure and cut the push rods.
Trusting all the above works then i can enclose the paddle boxes.
:hammer
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Hi All,
Moving on with the paddle wheels after a motivation block...
I have rough fitted the eccentric wheel & rods and would be very gratefull if you would have a look at them and give me your thoughts on wether they are suitable or not.
I seem to have a fair bit of friction but should be able to remove that by opening holes a little & adjusting the silicon bushes.
How i put it all together...
First the eccentric wheel was centred on the drive axle centre of the paddle wheel. All rods were cut an fitted to the centred wheel. (2mm Threaded rod, Z bend at the float end, bent and retaining nut at eccentric end. All have been rough fitted and need trimmed.)
Once assembled the eccentric was moved to a position where the best alignment of the blades was achieved.
Not an exact engineering method but the best my patience would allow at the moment.
My main concern is if they will actually work as they should. I have photographed the wheel on top of the plan for reference. The other pic is of my method for the fixed rod.
Any thoughts / opinions would be great.
Thanks
Kim
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I think that's one for the engineering bods to ponder on Kim..... Hopefully they can come up with a solution?
But my uneducated two-penneth worth is that the eccentric rods may be a bit small - At only 2mm diameter, they are probably bending slightly and causing the mechanism to bind..... I could be totally wrong, but that would be the first area I would look at.
Regards
Eddy
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Kim,
I'd also take a very close look at the bends in the rods, you will never get a HARD right angle bend (like that in a letter L) you will always get a soft right angle (Like the bottom of a letter J), so they don;t need to move very much to cause binding....
Regards
Eddy
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Many thanks Eddy right now I could do with all the help i can get. The wife doesn't seem to be of much help and i thought she was good with black art stuff :hehe
My thinking with the 2mm rod was to allow for bending rather than major strain on other areas.
If I'm wrong i could allways go up in size??
Its all a bit confusing at the moment and will be very happy when this part is behind me. All this just to stick them in a box and under the water :hehe
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My mother-in-law is pretty good at working her magic with these things, so I could always ask her for some advice........ But right now she's gone off for a ride on her broomstick :hehe
Eddy
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My mother-in-law is pretty good at working her magic with these things, so I could always ask her for some advice........ But right now she's gone off for a ride on her broomstick :hehe
Eddy
If she is what you said than she will know what you said and then you will be in lots of hot water because once SWMBO finds out what you said about her mother she will hit you with her broomstick. :hehe :hehe :hehe
Andre
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The wheels & floats look the buisness, Kim, a lot of work there, keep in at it, will be worth it in the end ;D
Looking at your eccentric rods, can I suggest the following... and I haven't constructed my own wheels yet..so its just a thought...
As Eddy says maybe the rod is to small a diameter & the right angle problem...
The "fixed" driver rod (at about 10 o clock in your photo) in my opinion would have to be pretty solid & with no "flexing", for the whole mechanism to work smoothly as its that rod that drives all the gear on the wheel, so it may have the most strain on it??? On my pre bought wheels (Mike Mayhew) the star centre and the driver arm are one piece (will post pic tomorrow if it helps)
Again just an opinion with no experience to back it up yet
Clark
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Another thought I have had for eccentric rods (as I have no intention of buying another set of wheels when I have used the set I have!) (again I dont know if it will work in real life!!).. is to use suitable dia brass rod with a slice of tubing soldered to the ends to make a bush to bolt through..a jig could be made to ensure they are all the same size...just an idea :-\
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Report form the Layman and Brute force engineering dept....
Thanks Guys for your replies..
Eddy you are right about the bendy right angles - proposed solution open out the holes a little to allow free movement.
As much as I'd like to have a near perfect set of wheels i have to be honest and admit my skill and patience isn't really up to it. At the end of the day the boat is for use on the water not for a museum.
Regarding the 2mm rods i have carried out a set of very non scientific tests... :hammer
I have tried over exaggerating the eccentric wheel's movements - All OK
I have tried revolving the eccentric disk with considerable force - Yes there was a bit of a bend put into the rods but the amount of pressure it took would surely be enough to stall the motor or at least have the drive clutch start slipping ( more on my drive clutch system when the blasted silver steel supplier gets his act together and gets the stuff to me :ranting )
So in short - I'm happy to leave the rods as they are after alteration to the hole sizes.
The real question is have i measured up my rods correctly and is my method of finding the correct ( or as near as dam it ) offset a working solution.
Or
If anyone can see any mistake i have made that needs sorting before i start to build them into the paddle boxes I'd really appreciate hearing them.
I found this little piece of video on YT, the rods look very thin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ouAwBTyFo
Thanks All
Kim
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Hi Kim,
Rather than enlarging the holes, which will probably cause even more slop and therefore binding, what about simply countersinking the holes on the side that the bend is on? That should allow the "J" bend to move freely?
Looking at the video, yes the rods are very thin, but bear in mind the problems of scale...... A 3" diameter rod on the real boat won't really behave in the same way as a 2mm diameter rod on the model - The loadings on the model are HUGE compared to the real boat....
Again, please bear in mind that I'm certainly not an engineer, these are just my assumptions which may be way off the mark!
Eddy
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Hi Kim,
Rather than enlarging the holes, which will probably cause even more slop and therefore binding, what about simply countersinking the holes on the side that the bend is on? That should allow the "J" bend to move freely?
Good thinking - will give it a go.
Looking at the video, yes the rods are very thin, but bear in mind the problems of scale...... A 3" diameter rod on the real boat won't really behave in the same way as a 2mm diameter rod on the model - The loadings on the model are HUGE compared to the real boat....
Unless I'm overlooking something Eddy (which is very possible) it looks to me as if the majority of the force goes down the length of the rod - (Where is Mr Badger when you need him :) )
Again, please bear in mind that I'm certainly not an engineer, these are just my assumptions which may be way off the mark!?
I really do appreciate them Eddy as i didn't think to question the thickness of the rods till you mentioned them.
Eddy
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Another thought I have had for eccentric rods (as I have no intention of buying another set of wheels when I have used the set I have!) (again I dont know if it will work in real life!!).. is to use suitable dia brass rod with a slice of tubing soldered to the ends to make a bush to bolt through..a jig could be made to ensure they are all the same size...just an idea :-\
Good thinking, but my soldering skills and balding head aren't up to that level of work :)
Q. why wouldn't you buy wheels again??
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If I stick to 1:48 scale, its just a matter of £ however if I made something that graupner wheels would go in without hassle i'd try them
The wheels I have in stock have 9 floats & some of my intended subjects have 7 or 8 floats plus I just want to have a go..... I can see it now, lots of :'( and >:(
Im no engineer either but if you do have probs i'd try a more rigid driving rod, are you going to try them in the hull? I think its just a case of experimenting with the position of the star centre. if they work as good as they look you'll be fine! I think you'll always have a bit of snagging with things like paddle wheels..
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Here's my advice kim for what it's worth!
Don't worry about the diameter of the rotating actuating rods - the forces acting on them are in tension and compression so there shouldn't be any bending PROVIDED you solidly attached driven rod is stout enough.
I gather that you probably don't have any 'machine tools' and reading your posts you seem a bit unsure about your 'skill' level? Pshaw! get a grip man we are here to help!! ;D.
I would suggest that you make another (new) solid fixed rod from flat strip with a hole at one end that will fit over the eccentric shaft and put a small BA nut and bolt through the strip to secure it to the rim of the eccentric disk. This method will ensure that the fixed rod CANNOT bend, flex or break free.
At the paddle end - again I would use small BA nuts and bolts for the pivot (12 or 14) to the paddle float, and use epoxy or thread lock to prevent it undoing. I know the engineers out ther will start muttering about bearings etc, but it WORKS - and that's all that matters.
For the other 'free' eccentric rods, can I suggest that you again use small BA nuts and bolts around the rim of the eccentric and make new rods from brass tube, flatten the ends and drill a hole that is a nice free fit over the bolts and again use epoxy or locktite on the retaining nuts. Do the same at the paddle float end. You can make a very simple jig to ensure all the holes are the same distance apart simply by gluing 2 lengths of stripwood to a board set the width of your tube apart and the exact length of the distance between the holes. If you put your rod into this and use it as a guide for your drill you should have no problem.
I can't do you a sketch at the moment cos it's 3 in the morning here! But if you would like me to just ask. In the meantime have a look at my very old post that I did for the Old Trafford paddle wheels and see if it helps.
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=757.msg2553#msg2553
all the best
Stuart
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OK - I said it was 3 in the morning and I didn't see your first post showing the lathe or the SIZE of the wheels! Everything I said still holds - just use larger nuts and bolts!
Stuart
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Many thanks for taking the time to reply Stuart i really do appreciate it.
As soon as my silver steel arrives i will get the drive and paddle wheels mounted and probably have a better idea of the way to go from there.
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Hi all,
Sorry if i am questioning the obvious!
The way a paddle wheel works or more specifically the control rod -
The main loading / principal of the the control rod is to stop the eccentric disk from rotating? Not, as i thought, the main load bearing / driving rod?
The reason i ask is i have never actually had a paddle wheel to play with before and noticed that the loading seems to be fairly equal on all the rods as they are either pushing or dragging the eccentric disk round.
The control rod appears only to be fixed to stop the eccentric 'winding up' and binding with the control rods?
So there is not a great deal more force on it just a little extra sideways force?
Am i understanding or does the control rod do a lot more than i have given it credit for?
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THE ECCENTRIC and its' driver rod are driven by the rotation of the main paddle wheel (via one paddle float)and as such has side loads on it therefore requiring it to be of greater strength than the control rods.
The control rods are only there to ensure that the distance between the rim of the eccentric and the end of the paddle float lever remains the same, thus imparting a position adjustment as the wheel rotates.
Hope thats helpful!
Stuart
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Kim,
A quick look at Ivor Bittles website may help a little http://www.ivorbittle.co.uk/Articles/Paddle%20wheel/The%20paddle%20wheel%20design%20study%20for%20the%20internet.htm But it does tend to go off into a lot of the maths involved!
Regards
Eddy
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Many thanks for your explanation Stuart.
thanks for your link Eddy although i did feel my eyes go heavy when he starts the mathematical stuff. ;D
Unfortunately my silver steel supplier and wood supplier have both let me down coupled with a very busy week ahead means building has ceased for the moment :(
3 months and 8 hours to paddler day.... need to get a move on if this is to be ready in time :(
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You've gone very quiet Kim, I hope that means your hard at work building!!
Looking forward to seeing your progress in due course....
Regards
Eddy
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Hi Eddy / All
Work / life and other commitments have stuffed my building time :(
As soon as the kids go back to school and i get a bit of time to myself i will be back at it. Still hoping to meet the paddler day deadline - fingers crossed.
Won't have time to get the Jupiter overhauled but may bring her as a static model.
Back soon...
Regards
Kim
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I know the feeling Kim...... I don't have a workshop, so all my building is done on the kitchen worktop and on the living room floor. We have some visitors coming on thursday, so I've spent all day clearing away all my junk so the place looks half tidy for their visit! :hehe
I had to admit that the place looked like a bomb had hit it, so it was about time I had a clear-up!! We now have a living room where you can actually see the carpet, and not have to dodge round bits of models and tools that were scattered everywhere..... Thank god for a very understanding wife!
Regards
Eddy
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I know the feeling also, I'm only getting a little bit done every 2nd week on Lochiel ::) Kim, looking forward to your build commencing when you have time.
regards
Clark
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Me too, when I have a couple of days off work (which is rare) my 'flavour-of-the-month' project makes (comparatively) great progress, but when I'm working it can take a week to cut out, file/sand and paint a single styrene component ???
Otherwise I'd have started a build diary of my Princess Elizabeth build by now, I just can't guarantee when (if ever) I'l complete it......
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Hi All,
Well after a 6 week break / entertaining the kids and other chores I'm slowly getting some time to give to the Talisman build. Don't worry i have been keeping my boat building efforts going over the summer just on a slightly bigger scale - see bellow
Time is running short for the Paddler day deadline but to accept defeat is not an option ... yet ;D
Today i dusted all the parts down and reminded myself of where i had left off and what the plan for the build sequence should be.
I also managed to get the paddle sponson bases attached to the side of the hull so Monday i will look at mounting the paddlewheels and eccentric disk axles & brackets.
If that all works out (fingers firmly crossed) then it should be a fairly straight forward build from there ...famous last words...
Until Monday
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Time is running short for the Paddler day deadline but to accept defeat is not an option ... yet ;D
There is another option Kim..... Accept defeat, as I have, but concentrate on getting the model to a stage where it can still sail, albeit in an unfinished condition!
I'm looking forward to seeing how you've got on in due course... Just leave the big inflatable thing alone, or give the kids a footpump so they can play with it while you do some real work :)
Regards
Eddy
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There is another option Kim..... Accept defeat, as I have, but concentrate on getting the model to a stage where it can still sail, albeit in an unfinished condition!
OK will do
Just leave the big inflatable thing alone, or give the kids a footpump so they can play with it while you do some real work :)
You havent been chatting to my wife have you Eddy ? She's always going on about real work stuff ... a mystery to me ???
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While doing some research this eve i came across this bit of video. _ doesn't help me but interesting all the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl1KBHbVX-0
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Was this build ever completed ?.