Paddleducks
Paddler Information => Research => Topic started by: Eddy Matthews on December 07, 2008, 10:43:58 AM
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I've always liked the American towboats, and I've built three so far - Two screw powered, and one sternwheeler. But where there ever any sidewheel towboats?
I've never seen one, but I'd be interested in finding out if any ever existed?
Maybe twoboatjoe can help?
Regards
Eddy
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Hi Eddy,
I've been wondering the opposite - where are the British stern-wheelers? There are after all a number of advantages to having the paddle at the stern (perhaps this answers your question) ie. (i) the boat/ship is narrower,or, if it is the same width then it has a larger cargo capacity; (ii) the vessel can pull directly alongside a quay; (iii) when moving ahead, the paddle wheel is protected by the hull of the ship, a distinct advantage in shallow rivers (see attached drawing). I suppose the answer to my question lies in the fact that we do not have long, navigable rivers, so that most of our ships operate on the sea/coastal waters. Large rivers like the Mississippi, although they might have rough areas, would not produce the fore and aft pitching motion that waves at sea produce; under these conditions a paddle at the stern would tend to leave the water and slam back down. Putting the paddles midships solves this problem, since it is difficult to imagine the middle of the ship leaving the water (leaving aside severe rolling). Hope this makes sense.
Keith.
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Hi Keith
I did once some years ago see a canal narrowboat at Wigan with quarter stern wheels. The boat "JETHRO TULL" seemed to handle well and had good accelleration. Unfortunately I don't have any photos.
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.... it is difficult to imagine the middle of the ship leaving the water ....
If you can, take a look at the picture of Waverley on the back cover of 'paddle wheels' issue no. 100... :-X
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I think your asumptions probably answer the question Keith - No American sidewheel towboats and no British sternwheelers for the reasons you mention.
Regards
Eddy
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Hi,
I knew I should have qualified that statement with "but not impossible".
I don't have a copy of that magazine,and have been unable to find a copy of the picture on a Google search, but how about this - not a photograph, but a rather fanciful painting.
posted by Keith I'm a harpooner by trade - monsters interest me
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They sure do
http://www.austintek.com/LVS/meetings/algonquin_2004/images/15530005.log_hauling_boat.jpg (http://www.austintek.com/LVS/meetings/algonquin_2004/images/15530005.log_hauling_boat.jpg)
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I stand corrected, those paddles have certainly left the water!.
"Gonna need a bigger anchor though."
posted by Keith "Eat you pudding, Mr Land"
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Hi folks. Dredging the murky depths of my grey matter I seem to remember that the Clyde estury once boasted a stern wheel ferry sometime in the mid 19th century (1850s)?. Ive done a quick search of my books but cant turn it up. I know it wasnt a success and was sold on pretty quickly. regards, walter.
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I don't know of a stern wheel Clyde ferry but there was the "CHARLOTTE DUNDAS" which had a recessed stern wheel. The attached photo of a model shows the arrangement clearly. She plied the Forth and Clyde canal.
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Walter,
Maybe you are thinking of the "Alliance" (I think that was her name) on the Clyde in the mid 1800's.
I have read an article on her in an issue of "Clyde Steamers" magazine, and from memory I think she had twin hulls with a paddle wheel inbetween, also as she was double-ended, a small paddle wheel at each end, laterally, to act as a sort of primitive bow/stern thruster.
Don't think she was successful. I will try to find the original article for more info.
Clark
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Hi Clark. No. that was a totaly different and quite revolutionary ship with twin hulls, a central wheel with a fore and aft paddle wheel at 90 degrees to the hull direction for steering and maneuvring. Apparently she could turn on the spot and move sideways! The first bow and stern thrusters?.
The paddle I am thinking of was a deffinate STERN WHEELER . Regards , Walter
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Hey Eddy,
I ran across this today and remembered this thread and the question you posed; Were there ever any sidewheel towboats?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Conestoga_(1861) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Conestoga_(1861)) Of course, she was more known for her war service so I doubt there are any photos of her before the Civil War.
Many of the "Tinclads" were converted from towboats and not just a few of them were sidewheelers. Now the real work begins; trying to find pictures of these sidewheel towboats prior to there conversion to Mississippi River gunboats. Researching the time period between 1850 and 1870 will probably get the best results.
Randy
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That's interesting Randy, thanks....
What would be the best US resource to try and find more information? I see the boat was built in Brownsville, Pennsylvania in 1859 - I wonder if the builders are still in existance? If so, who were they?
Eddy
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I see the boat was built in Brownsville, Pennsylvania in 1859 - I wonder if the builders are still in existence?
If you click on the link to Brownsville, Pennsylvania you'll find that the town hardly exists anymore let alone a small shipyard from the mid 1800's. You might have a better chance of looking up "Tinclads" and "timberclads" and see which were previous towboats and follow up on any leads that that may bring. Unfortunately, this is going to be a very tough search. Many of the shipbuilders of the time didn't last long. As the American Frontier was opening, many shipbuilders popped up to meet the need for the westward expansion. But the great number of shipbuilders also led to tremendous competition and many of these builders went out of business after a very short period of time. Records, if they even kept records, were lost with the demise of the company.
As far as resources, I often refer to http://www.shipbuildinghistory.com/ (http://www.shipbuildinghistory.com/). This site is by no means complete but it gives me the best starting point for finding where a particular ship may have been built or which shipyard built a particular ship. I've been trying to find a source as comprehensive as the Great Lakes Historical Society that deals with the Mississippi River region but haven't found it yet.
Randy
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Googling Monogahela River Shipyards got me this result; http://books.google.com/books?id=BjBUV4t7YO8C&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=Monongahela+River+shipyards&source=web&ots=yLKwTlKBXe&sig=DHIkkL3Xs5watX7rwII6x504gxA&hl=en&ei=RLiMSYq7LYr2sAPFhbiOCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result (http://books.google.com/books?id=BjBUV4t7YO8C&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=Monongahela+River+shipyards&source=web&ots=yLKwTlKBXe&sig=DHIkkL3Xs5watX7rwII6x504gxA&hl=en&ei=RLiMSYq7LYr2sAPFhbiOCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result), which discusses the shipyard of Snowdon and Mason of Brownsville, Pennsylvania having to move their operations downriver in order to be able to build "Monitor" class warships. Snowdon, Snowdon, where have I heard that name before? ;D
Randy
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Hi PD's.....very interesting reading Randy ...by the time you get to page 78 :gathering ....you could think it would be a good script for a TV soapie....like "would they float or not"?.... :whistle :hammer with all the extral weight of materials....... :shhh anyone the answer.....let them read it for themselves....Derek :hehe
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The Clyde stern-wheeler was built by David Napier, who was then living in Worcester, for service on the Severn and named SEVERN according to Napier's autobiography, and renamed KILMUN. She was built at Worcester and was 137ft long, 15ft breadth, and 107gt, and was flat bottomed, She was broken up late in 1860, so was obviously not a success. I believe she was fitted with Napier's rotary engine. She ran from Glasgow to Kilmun in 1860
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I see we discussed the sternwheeler KILMUN on the old Yahoo! foum on 19 June 2005
Alistair
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I've always liked the American towboats, and I've built three so far - Two screw powered, and one sternwheeler. But where there ever any sidewheel towboats?
Sorry for not being around for a while Eddy. I have plans for about five sternwheel towboats.
There were hundreds of them plowing the Western Rivers at the turn of the century, up to 1960. There are still some smaller ones still in operation today called "pool boats" because they mostly worked the pool area of the river and seldom locked through the dams.
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Here's the major I have plans for.
Somewhere I had some drawings of the Alexander Mackenzie
John fryant has many plans for river towboats. His link is http://modelplans.steamboats.org/
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I also have two excursion boats. Homer Smith used to run the Ohio River and the other I designed from photos from the 1950 film Showboat. It's called Cotton Blossom.
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I think your asumptions probably answer the question Keith - No American sidewheel towboats and no British sternwheelers for the reasons you mention.
Regards
Eddy
But we did have sidewheeled towboats. Though not many. We even had a tractor drive back in the 1940's that was convereted to a sidewheeled drive in the 1950's, then was converted to three harbourmaster outdrives on the stern in the 1960's.
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Do any photos or drawings exist for a sidewheel towboat Joe? I've been unable to find anything, so would appreciate your help!
Regards
Eddy
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I'll look and see if I can find anything. Some of the tinclads that still had good hulls under them were converted to towboats. most of the sidewheelers were packet boats then they discovered a way to add payload to barges and push them too. After the packets were aging they were discarded for the more powerful sternwheelers that could push bigger loads.
Here's the last boat used as a sidewheel towboat. Sunco was orginally designed as a tractor drive, it was converted to sidewheels, then to out drives. Last photo of her existance before scrapping named City of Catlettsburg.
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...the caterpillar drive... they actually built those!!! there's a (partial) model in the science museum showing something very similar but I didn't know it was ever really used....
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How about Indiana, was that a towboat? There was an article (in model boats) on building a model, I'll have to try to find out if I still have that issue as it had a bit of the history of the real boat...
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I may be all wet on this but I think the Indiana was a packet boat not a towboat, the way I understand the distinction is that a packet boat carried the cargo on board the boat and most of the time never pulled or pushed a barge. If you look at the picture there are no knees to push a barge with. Where as a towboat never carried the cargo, it was always on a barge that was either pushed (most of the time) or towed.
Andre
over yonder in Portland Oregon
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Yup, that's my understanding too Andre.....
Towboats are normally flat fronted with towing "knees" for pushing the barges. Definately a unique design of boat specifically built for one purpose, that of pushing large barges full of cargo.
The Americans developed the idea (in the 1840's I beleive?) and apart from a few of the larger European river systems they remain a unique American type of vessel.
One thing that confuses a lot of people is the term "towboat", here in the UK (and most other countries) we assume that "tow" means to PULL - Whereas towboats PUSH their barges. The reason for this is quite simple, a string of barges is called a "tow", hence the boat that pushes them is a TOWBOAT.
Regards
Eddy
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Packet boats, like the Indiana, were the fore fathers of the towboat. In latter years they started building barges and pushing them with a packet boat. How they done it was pushed three wide and the packet fit in the middle knotch with a barge on either side.
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I found the article and you're all correct, Indiana was not a towboat.... I was confusing it with another article I'd read, the subject was a sternwheeler though, I think it was 'Sprague'...
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Ah yes, the Sprague. She was a big one. Her wake would actually put boats up on the banks. Too bad some vandals burned her along with historic relics in Vicksburg back in the 70's.
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Hello Eddy,
Go to http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/LaCrosseSteamboat/ (http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/LaCrosseSteamboat/) and do a search on the Annie Girdon, the second picture has at least 4 sidewheel towboats (which are also referred to as "rafters") in it. These vessels are true towboats in that the "tow" was tied to the back of the vessel or alongside the towboat, they were not pushers.
Randy
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Thanks Randy,
I've only had about 15 minutes browsing, and already there are three or four potential future projects - My never-ending list has just grown again!! :(
Regards
Eddy
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I know what you mean Eddy. I'm already looking at the walls of my office and thinking, "If I move that there, and this here I may have room..."
One other thing on that website; Keep track of what page you are on if you are browsing. The website will clock you out if there has been no activity after a few minutes and then you have to try and figure out where you left off.
Randy
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I found the article and you're all correct, Indiana was not a towboat.... I was confusing it with another article I'd read, the subject was a sternwheeler though, I think it was 'Sprague'...
There is a towboat named indiana owned by Madison Coal and Supply. It's one of the old St. Louis Ship boats 164' x 40'. Used to be Named Robert P. Tibolt
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For the record concerning American sidewheel towboats. Yes, they were in vogue -starting in the 1830s. Many were in service in the Northeast Corridor of the United States, especially in New York, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island. New York carried the most significant ones that traveled up and down the Hudson River from Albany-Troy to New York City.
They could be seen docked at most ports of call, re: Troy, Albany, Kingston, Newburgh, etc., etc. And no, these vessels did not push but rather towed its freight from the rear knight head bitts.
I've been researching and building models of these famous boats since 1985, starting with my first model of the sidewheel towboat AMERICA of 1852. I am currently working on a model of the sidewheel towboat NORWICH of 1836 in her 1900 appearance shown in my profile drawing. This is a waterline model for a diorama depicting a Hudson River waterfront in Kingston, New York.
You can see more images of the American towboat by visiting https://www.facebook.com/rex.stewart3/posts/10206043698352164 .
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Hi Rex,
very fine made models! I am a German and in Europe the walking beam- and steeple engines were nearly never common, but I always was fascinated of pictures and photos of this majestic engines.
I wrote - nearly never used - one exception I know: The Danube sidewheel towboat "Johann Baptist" of 1854 with American walking beam engine, see pictures. I don`t know about one furter exemple, may be one of our members knows more?
Thomas
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Good to see these images, Hank. I'm impressed that the walking beam types were operating in Europe. Thanks for sharing.
I needed to fill a void here in the States regarding the walking beam towboats. Alot of data was around relative to paintings and photos, but nothing by way of accurate models. All the more reason I started my line in 1985.
It is my hope to build ten more towboats before ceasing in that particular genre. They are interesting vessels.
Regards,
Rex
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Hi Rex,
here a sideview of the "Johann Baptist", drawn by Mr. Erwin Hauke, Austria.
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Rex,
are you familiar with Erik Heyl's work Early American steamers? It is text and a picture but no plans but it is very good as a ref. here is a typical page. This can be found at
www.hathitrust.org
some of the 5 vols are available, others are not.