Paddleducks
Other Marine Models => Live steam => Topic started by: Bernd on October 30, 2008, 01:01:01 PM
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Hi PD's,
I've been digging in the Live Steam archives gathering info for building a real live steam sternwheeler using a pitman arm. I see that is a rare thing to find. I see that Bill Hudson is on the same track. I've seen the vid of an engine that was at a show that somebody here had posted. I've done a bit of Googleing and seem to come up short finding anything. >:(
I would like to scratch build the super structure not following any prototype. I just what something that looks close. I'm more interested in operating it. I have a plastic kit that was put out by "The Lindberg Line" many years ago. It's a model of a stern wheel river tug called Southern Belle. it's a plastic model with a electric motor to power it. I never put it together. I'll have to take a pic of the box and post it later. I'm thinking of scaling this up to a size that will hold a steam engine. The hull is almost 9" long and a little over 3" wide.
I have Elmer Verburg's book and plan on building, what he calls the Demo Engine. It is supposed to resemble a paddle wheel engine using a cam to drive the valve gear. There is no way of reversing the engine though.
I'll get a couple of pics of the plastic boat and post next time I'm on.
I see from rumaging around here I cam across a few couple of familar faces.
I'd like to say high to a very familar face. HI Bogs :yeahbaby
Regards,
Bernd
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Bernd
I am in the process of gathering information to build a model of the stern wheel tug Portland. I am lucky enough to have the real vessel right here in Portland Oregon not to far from where I live and I was able to get aboard her while she was in dry dock a couple of weeks ago. I got a lot of pictures of her hull, paddle wheel and rudders plus lots of engine pics. I also was able to make copies of the plans for the main engine. It is 26" bore 9 foot stroke 900 hp. The model will be just shy of 7 feet long and close to 19" beam.
I am finding that scaling things down to 3/8" to the foot is a real challenge. If you do a search in the forum for Portland you will find several pictures that both Bill and I have posted.
I will be casting all the engine parts in bronze with my home foundry because there are no long stroke cylinder casting available that I know of.
If you have any questions let me know and I will try and get an answer.
Dave
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If you have any questions let me know and I will try and get an answer.
Dave
You may have opened a can of worms with that statement. ;D I am interested in the engines. I've seen various steam engines before but nothing like what is used to power these stern wheelers. I would like to be kept in the loop on your project.
I like scratchbuilding things so that's why I'm going to work off of the plastic model I have, but would like to power it by steam with such engines as you are designing. My Dad is also into building steam and engines and boats. He's 81 years young. He's interested in building the "Zulu" and powering it by steam.
So if you can keep me in the loop I'd be very happy. Thanks very much.
Regards,
Bernd
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Dave,
Just went back and searched on your Portland suggestion. I already looked at all those pic's. Very nice to see what one of those engines looks like.
In one one of the threads mention was made as to what scale to model in. 3/8"=1'. It was mentioned that it would be hard to work in that scale. Actually I would think it easy since 1/32" = 1".
You and Bill talk about engine plans. Were are these available and can they be purchased anywere. I've searched and haven't found any availability of such plans.
Regards,
Bernd
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I've taken a couple of pics of the plastic model boat that I would like to scale up. As I was setting up for the picture taking I noticed on the side of the box that the model is a 3/16"=1' scale. Half the size of 3/8"=1' scale.
Anyway here are the pics. The first is of the box as the boat would look like on the river.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com//PaddleDucksPics/pb1.jpg)
The second pic is the plastic hull with an 8" digital caliber scale.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com//PaddleDucksPics/pb2.jpg)
The last pick is of the plans as it would look finish assembled.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com//PaddleDucksPics/pb3.jpg)
I plan on scaling this boat up to 3/16"=1' and see what comes out.
Regards,
Bernd
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Hello Bernd,
I ran across these plans for a horizontal steam engine. They are for a stationary type engine but the principles can be incorporated into a working engine for your paddler. One thing for sure, you will be exchanging a paddlewheel for the flywheel in the plans. it is a pdf file by the way.
http://www.green-trust.org/junkyardprojects/FreeIC&ECEngines/HorizontalSlide-ValveEngine.pdf (http://www.green-trust.org/junkyardprojects/FreeIC&ECEngines/HorizontalSlide-ValveEngine.pdf)
There are a number of plans available in the "Downloads" section under steam engine plans. I don't know what the new minimum for posting is before thes are made available to you, but you should be pretty close. A PM to Eddy may make them available to you also.
Hope this gets you going in the right direction.
Randy
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Hi Randy,
The principals are the same but it's not quite what is used in a stern wheeler. I have several plans for horizontal engines. They could be used with some modifications as you say. Thank you very much for the link.
My interest lies in the use of a prototype engine. I'm more of a steam nut than boat nut. I'm the type that will build the engine first and then add a boat around that engine.
As far as getting into the downloads, I'm not to concerned about that right now as I'm doing some research as to the types of engines used on the stern wheeler (BYW- should that be one word or two? sternwheeler).
Thanks for replying to the thread and trying to help out. Much appreciated.
Regards,
Bernd
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Bernd
Take a look at this link. http://twaintimes.net/boat/sbindex.html It has a lot of information on steam boats of the Mississippi river you will find it interesting.
You will see by comparing the illistration and the photos of the Portland that they are very different engines.
As stated earlier I do not know of any plan sets for sale for this type of engine. I am working from a set of copies of the original builders plans for the Portland engines. When we compare 3/8"= 1' to 1 1/2"= 1' that the model steam locomotive folks work with these are small engines. It just makes scaling down an engine that is over 10 feet long just for the cylinder casting very interesting. Getting nuts and bolts down small enough means really really small nuts and bolts.
It will get done but I expect it to take quite some time to get it done. I will keep you in the loop.
Dave
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Hello Bernd,
Now that I understand better what you are trying to accomplish, you might want to look into the USS CAIRO. If you're not already familiar with her, she was a civil war era gunboat built for use on the Mississippi. She was powered by dual inclined engines that are very similar in construction to a true horizontal. If you look her up on Flickr , you can find numerous pictures of her port engine and pitman. I'm not aware of any plans of her engines though her construction has been well documented since she was raised from the Yazoo River.
Since you aren't looking for an exact engine from an actual boat you may end up just having to use a little artistic license in building your own. It can probably be said that each engine was as unique as the vessel it was put in.
You may wish to look up engine manufacturers of the time since many of the boat yards didn't build there own engines.
Randy
Sternwheeler. I threw that in to see if spell-check would flag it. The version you see is an acceptable way to spell it. It did however flag "spell-check".
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I've taken a couple of pics of the plastic model boat that I would like to scale up....
I didn't know Lindbergh made a model of that boat, I had seen the 'Krick' model before - http://www.hmbc.nl/cat/southernbelle.php - might have been one at the paddler day! maybe someone has plans that could be enlarged? it looks to be about 3 foot long and could possibly take a small steam engine as it is...
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Bernd
Take a look at this link. http://twaintimes.net/boat/sbindex.html It has a lot of information on steam boats of the Mississippi river you will find it interesting.
You will see by comparing the illistration and the photos of the Portland that they are very different engines.
Very intersting engine. I've got that one stored away. Thank you very much for that link
As stated earlier I do not know of any plan sets for sale for this type of engine. I am working from a set of copies of the original builders plans for the Portland engines. When we compare 3/8"= 1' to 1 1/2"= 1' that the model steam locomotive folks work with these are small engines. It just makes scaling down an engine that is over 10 feet long just for the cylinder casting very interesting. Getting nuts and bolts down small enough means really really small nuts and bolts.
It will get done but I expect it to take quite some time to get it done. I will keep you in the loop.
Dave
I'm starting to see that the engines are as varied as the sternwheelers themselve. I did notice that difference from the Portland. I see where a 10' long cylinder could be 3.75" long on the model. The would be a bit of a challenge to make on the lathe and keep the bore straight.
It'll be interesting to see what you come up with. Appreciate being kept in the loop.
Regards,
Bernd
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Randy,
Going to follow the leads you have given me.
You guys here at PD are great. :great :no1b
Now to do a bit of research.
Regards,
Bernd
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Mjt60a,
Interesting. The plastic model I have is a 1:64 scale. The boat length is about 9.8" long and around 3.4" beam. The model you showed the link to is 1:72 scale is 39.3" long and has an 11" beam. I looked at that for a while and it still dosen't add up. There should be a bigger difference in size. Going have to sit down with my calculator and have at it later.
Nice link by the way.
Regards,
Bernd
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I think there may be a mis-print or two in those specs, the model I saw (in a model shop, now closed down) looked to be about 1/32 scale, not 1/72!
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I think there may be a mis-print or two in those specs, the model I saw (in a model shop, now closed down) looked to be about 1/32 scale, not 1/72!
That makes more sense. 1:32 is double of 1:64. That would make the scale 3/8"=1'. Ok now the conversions of length and beam fit better. Thanks mjt60a.
Bernd
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I bought the same plastic model of the "Southern Belle" and while I was working on scaling it up I found the Krick version of the "Southern Belle". I put it together and I have always regretted not making it live steam. I used a planetary gear stack and made pulleys so I could use the pitmans to power the sternwheel. I am attaching some pictures of the finished boat. I used two 6v gel cells to power the motor, radio, and the lights.
You might consider looking for a set of plans for the "King of the River", it is about the same size as the Krick boat but is steam powered. It uses a pair of oscillating cylinders but they are directly connected to the sternwheel instead of using gearing or belts.
I am attaching some pictures of my finished Southern Belle.
I hope this helps,
Mike R C
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I didn't know they still made the "Lindberg" line of models. I used to bulid them when I was a child. Back in the 50s.
Ron
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Hi, Sternwheel searches,
I see that this was all done back in 2008 but I have just joined PDs and want to build a sternwheeler. Did any of you find a suitable engine? I still can't find plans on the web. I have read about and studied drawings of the big engines with four poppet valves but I still cant figure it out. There is a vertical pivot arm that is is mounted on the end of the piston rod and pushes another rod that operates the wipers that lift the poppets. The problem is how does it lift on the front poppet on the pressure side and lift the rear poppet on the exhaust side at the same time?
Any way, if anyone has a sternwheel engine pl,ease let me know.
Thanks
Bob
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....how does it lift on the front poppet on the pressure side and lift the rear poppet on the exhaust side at the same time?...
Does this help at all? http://www.twaintimes.net/boat/sbpage3a.html
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I have seen that many times. Lets look at the picture and call what we are looking at the starboard side. we see the cylinder and above that the (pink) steam pipe. Above that the wipers lifting first the front bar and its poppet then the back bar and its poppet. Now what you don't see is on the port side is the (white) exhaust pipe. It also has wipers that lift bars and poppet valves for the exhaust in the opposite order. That is when the front steam lifts the rear exhaust lifts and when the rear steam lifts the front exhaust lifts. So there are two sets of wipers pivoting in opposite directions both driven From a single reach rod. You can see the reach rod moving one set of wipers, but what makes the other set of wipers move opposite?
Bob
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I highly recommend trying to obtain copies of Alan L Bates' The western rivers steamboat cyclopoedium; Or, American riverboat; structure & detail, salted with lore; with a nod to the modelmaker and The western rivers engineroom cyclopoedium. It's all explained in detail there, in the latter even the various types of cutoff gear.
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I have just joined PDs and want to build a sternwheeler.
What exactly is your intention?
Do you want to build an exact scale engine model for the sake of an exact reproduction of a western river type engine?
Or are you looking for a reliable engine for a RC model sternwheeler?
If the latter is the case, all these rocker/wiper/poppet valve type western river engines are far too delicate and complicated in my opinion to make a good small scale model. Then I would go for something more robust and simple: Either some kind of Stephenson gear operated by eccentrics on the wheel shaft. Or simply take the 90° leading/lagging valve gear motion from the crosshead of engine on the opposite side of the boat. In this latter case, no eccentrics and straps would be needed, and you could either go for a very simple but reliable full-pressure engine (no cutoff), or a Walschaerts/Heusinger type of valve gear.
Moritz
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I was hoping to build a realistic model. and have wondered for some time how the linkage reverses the two wipers. Thanks for your help.
Bob