Paddleducks
Other Marine Models => Live steam => Topic started by: bogstandard on August 23, 2008, 04:49:11 PM
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I was going to design a horizontal paddler engine this year, but due to medical problems and workshop rebuild I never actually got around to it.
It seems that me being slow doing anything has turned up trumps.
I found this on one of my favourite French sites, where I purchase a few plans from, and it is a freebie.
http://jpduval.free.fr/Plans_moteurs_vapeur_p2.htm
Because of it being a piston valve, wack a fwds/rev controller on it and you are in business.
It is a 14mm bore X 18mm stroke so it should easily power up to a 5ft paddler, maybe a little more.
To get to the plans (PDF) just click on the CAD generated drawing on the top of the page.
So all those who have a bit of machining under their belt, this could be the way to go.
John
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What a great find John, thanks...
Now if only I had the necessary machinery to build it.... Oh and the skills needed to do it would also help! :)
I would assume this would need gearing to give an output RPM suitable for our use?
Regards
Eddy
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Eddy,
I think a 2 or 3 to1 reduction would be perfect.
I can show the way how to do it, but it is difficult to get machinery and skills into the hands of everyone who would like to make one. That is the stumbling block.
When it eventually comes to the top of my very long 'to do' list, I will most probably knock out a couple or three, as it is just as easy to make more than one as you are set up.
I have a load of machine tooling to make, plus about four or five engines before this one gets anywhere near the top, and I don't even have a lathe yet, that is coming next thursday.
But for those that do have the facilities and skills, it looks a rather good build.
John
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...Hi Pd's......I would be the first to consider to purchase the 4th [MVhTC14x18] [V4] model off the production line...based upon
1) V4 will have stainless steel sealed ball bearings in the big end
2) V4 a 50 diameter x 12 width contured flywheel was fitted to the LH 5 diameter journal :hammer
3) V4 will have simple reversing gear as standard......all or both of which are a bogstandard standard :nahnah
This is a LARGE horizontal engine @ 14 bore x 18 stroke .....so is very similar in physical size & displacement to the Saito TY-2DR horizontal engine @ 12 bore x 20 stroke ......Saito quote a 1000mm to 1500mm hull length........I think they have been :beer too much Saki - Derek
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Hi Derek,
Confusing me again with all those numbers and letters.
As you have duly noted, I can leave nothing as standard, and yes, I am sure some S.S. bearings would creep in there.
Again you are showing your fetish for flywheels. I thought Sandy and myself had talked you out of that in a previous discussion.
The contoller that I made on my previous effort would fit the bill perfectly, plus maybe the multistart thread luber as well.
I think Saito have it all wrong in my estimation. Going on the results from my 10x20 oscillator with the gearing on, 5 to 6ft for this one is definitely nearer the mark (that is on about 25 psi).
On my little horizontal, the gearing makes it almost impossible to stop the shaft turning on just 5 to 10psi, so I am sure 3.5 to 4.5ft for that would be ideal.
John
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OK PD's.....my prediction :thinking...this "Horizontal twin paddler engine" item ...could surpass that 'built of junk'
posting 8,524 views,,,,, :angel
Bogstandard....when I look at @ page 3 of MVhTC14x18....I assume it is drawn in Inventor or Solid Edge .....especially when I see the 3D view of the valve block
& yes.....:nono...more time for me to consider ...........Derek
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Hi PD's....spent a few hours considering this engine :ranting...it is immensely complicated from a material perspective....on Drawing MVhTC14x18 01 we see the base frame or 'entablature' of the engine
OK ....76 long x 52 wide ....but the material nominated is 'Plat laiton' 25x6 et tole laiton ep2' ....= 6mm thick [finished size] brass plate
My machining skills are VERY rusty & I have no machinary ...so lets hope that the CNC X, Y + Z axis'....will be working on the new mill @ Crewe Engineering ....with the dog called Bandit as the programmer :hehe...............Derek
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Again Derek,
Jumping to conclusions.
My mill isn't CNC, I only wish. It is a fully manual one, with bits added to help me turn the handwheels.
The materials aren't an issue on this one. All the framework could be made out of ali, which would cost a lot less than brass plate, and because of all the webbing, would be just as rigid.
Bearing surfaces would have to have a good dose of looking at though. Cylinders, I would consider bronze or cast iron, with sacrificial brass or bronze pistons (it is easier to remake a worn out piston than a cylinder). I in fact, would make the framework from engraving brass, as I have plenty in stock.
I have no idea what the cad package is that was used. As you know, I only work with Scrap-O-Cad. A lot easier and cheaper to use. It only requires a fag packet and a felt tip. If you want me to send you a kit of my cad package, send $25 to .............. P&P extra.
John
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John, if it is just as easy to make 2 or 3 as it is to make 1 then imagine how easy it would be to make 7 or 8 ;D (on the theory that each multiple increases the ease of manufacture) and we will all be queing up for one. At last a real paddler engine that lies down on the job and with enough grunt to power a proper size hull - just what we have been dreaming of. "The impossible we expect immediately - miracles we will wait a little longer for". Cheers, Ian.
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Again PD's......I suggest this is a very complex build...but a challange only to those with the knowledge & machinary
1) Drawing MVhTC14x18 00...in the 3D view shows that the valve blocks are are radiused to the cylinders
2) the Plan view on the same Drawing suggests that the valve blocks are flat faced to the cylinders
3) Drawing MVhTC14x18 03 in Section CC shows the cylinder...but does not detail the OD
4) Section EE on the same Drawing shows the radius of the valve block as R12....~~~~~therefore assume that the cylinder diameter is D24
5) Drawing MVhTC14x18 00 nominates the 'Soldure a letian haute temperature' of the valve blocks to the cylinders which would cause distortion in both the piston valve bores & cylinder bores...so line bore them :hammer after soldering??????......I am sure that an alternate bolted construction could be achieved
:beer...........Derek
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I am doing a bit of a resurrection on this post, for reasons that will become obvious.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel a bit guilty in letting you down by not designing and making an engine for you flat propellor people.
I have given the plans a real good dose of looking at, and Derek is correct in his comments, thank you Derek. The only thing I don't agree with is making a bolted construction of the steam chest. Too much going on in such a small space can lead to too many problems. The steam chests could easily be soft soldered on, but in my case, I would use silver solder, but only lap afterwards. I have found that even with fairly harsh heat, distortion can be controlled with just a gentle lapping rather than full boring.
As I said, I have given them a good scan and come to the conclusion that to put ball races of any sort of diameter will cause a few design problems, mainly because of the one piece crank. Smaller ones could be accommodated in the two outer bearing supports, and I will look at a reasonably priced small bearing that should do the job. Even without bearings, with the correct material selection and lubrication, I can envisage us all pushing up daisies before it would be worn out.
The reason for all this, the quack has said to get my a**e into gear and get moving, if I can do that, he will help me as much as possible to get my body working properly again. So after the workshop is finished off, one major contract to do, then I am looking at making a batch of these engines. Don't know how many yet because I will have to look what I have in stock material wise.
What I will be doing though, like my scrap engine before, I will be cataloguing the build as I go, so hopefully a few of the members with basic machining facilities will be able to tag along and pick up a few tips.
We are not talking next week, but most probably in a couple of months. I reckon the build can easily be done in about six weeks if all goes well. A nice winter project for some of you.
Unfortunately some of our big pond cousins in the US might struggle a bit with metric, but this being a fairly quick project, I don't have time to do an imperial conversion.
So when I get aroundtuit, I will raise a post for the build.
John
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Fantastic news John!! :respect
Any idea on the price of these babies yet? I could be tempted to put my name on the list!
Regards
Eddy
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OK PD's..as an inducement....maybe I should post over another ream of second hand paper & a few worn out pencils & a few dog bones for Vinnie...sorry about the empty fag packets John ......I :ranting....gave up 10 years ago
Great news :hehe......many PD members will line up each evening to :breakcomp...& check their computer for your postings
But remember PD's :nono this is a big engine........& would dictate a hull of some 2000 mm length & an engine space ...approx 120 mm wide x 150 mm long
The Drawing MVhTC14x18 00 prints out @ approx 96% of true size so provides a good visual of the real engine size & hull requirement + also needs a bloody big boiler & space to install it ..... :goodluck :nahnah.................Derek
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I have just taken note of what Derek said, and it is a big engine.
If people would prefer it, I could do a batch of the smaller oscillators that I converted to horizontal, but it would mean having to put up with a few of my fag packet sketches.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/6.jpg)
It will in fact look a lot more professional than the one shown, as that one was a conversion of the upright upright engine.
These can easily be run from a standard boiler and are plenty powerful enough for up to say 5ft, if a slim hull, or a standard director class. This engine has four stainless shielded bearings, and is based around the twin vertical from the same site that the larger engine plans came from, but much modified. At 5psi, you cannot stop the shafts turning, unless you end up with very badly friction burnt fingers.
One of these horizontal engines is out in the field at the moment, being built into a paddler, but until it is finished, I don't expect any feedback. Maybe early next year. The vertical ones have proved to be more powerful than was originally thought, and are pushing around boats up to over 4.5ft with no problems, one was formerly fitted with a Cheddar Gemini, and was dropped in place of the original engine, but only running on a frugal 25psi.
I will leave the choice to yourselves. Just let me know which one you would prefer to see built.
John
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OK PD's.... :hehe...considering OZ is the first location in the world each day to see the new sun each morning...I am the first to respond to bogstandard...& by that time it is :coffee...so good morning John.......
1) I would love to see & read the construction build dialogue & .jpgs of the MVhTC14x18 00
2) But.....in reflection, I would never consider the purchase of such a BIG engine.......& the resultant .....25 to 30 kg hull?
I think my thinking cap must go on :beer...for a few hours ....as that little horizontal oscilitator [as shown below] has great visual/practical...use
Just my humble thoughts....but we have another 1000 members ..............Derek
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Absolutely no disrespect intended here, but I would personally like to see the engine in the original post, as I feel it's a lot more realistic (visually) for a paddler. An oscillator with those cylinders wobbling back and forth just doesn't do it for me :(
So how about a compromise? Make the original engine as per the drawings, but reduce it to approx 2/3 size?
Regards
Eddy
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OK PD's.... hehe...considering OZ is the first location in the world each day to see the new sun each morning...I am the first to respond to bogstandard...& by that time it is Coffee...so good morning John.......
See folks, them ozzies think NZ is just another state of theirs, ist a well known secret that NZ is always the first country in the world in the to see the sun rise on a new day. We aint always the first up out of bed to see it but, so will give you that one Derek
Cant wait to see your new engine John
cheers
HarryD (kiwi)
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Good evening Harry, I am a raging insomniac, so time usually means nothing. Just awake and not awake.
So how about a compromise? Make the original engine as per the drawings, but reduce it to approx 2/3 size?
It doesn't work like that Eddy, to reduce in size is dead easy to do mathematically, physically it is a lot more difficult.
Bandit has done a few calcs for me.
Imagine the crank, 5mm at the moment, roughly 3.5mm after conversion. The crank would most probably twist like a rubber band at that size, so that would really have to stay at 5mm, so imagine having to go thru the whole engine and look at every part to see if it would take the forces acting upon it. Pipework can only be reduced so far, so basically you have a larger scale pipe going into a smaller scale hole. These are just a couple of examples, I am sure there will be a lot more examples.
That is why this type of engine needs to be as large as it is.
A complete redesign would be called for, to reduce the stroke to a much shorter level, then the engine would start to become a 'square' engine, and usually this means it will need to run a lot faster to produce the power, and so would need to have a larger gearing stepdown, and it goes on and on.
You only have to look at the Anton offering
http://fabrice.bretagne.club.fr/Moteur%20Quartz%20Horizontal.htm
Something this size would be dead easy to make, but longevity of the engine has been sacrificed to get it to such a compact size, also note the diameter of the crank in relation to the rest of the engine, this proves my point noted above. Note also, no steam packings, no support of the crosshead. To me that doesn't shout longevity, just bad friction wear points.
So basically, to have a scale looking, very robust engine, that needs to be physically larger to get the operating system in, or a compact size that looks awful, but does a good job.
John
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Thanks for the detailed reply John... Not being an engineer, I hadn't even thought about some of the technicalities. It was just a suggestion for those that didn't want such a large engine.... But if the problems make it a none starter so be it.
Regards
Eddy
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Hello all! Very small engines can't be done? What do you think about this horizontal engine then? Perfect for a pocket-paddlewheeler. ;D
It was made by a German named Georg W. Held.
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Hi Kno3,
I was not saying that small engines can't be built, here is one I knocked up in a day
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=76_TtDfYPCo
What I was trying to explain, that to get to a useable size what these lads require, a slide valve or piston valve type will be physically larger than an oscillator of comparative stroke and bore, because of the valve control gear. In fact there is basically no difference in steam requirement for a piston valve engine or oscillator, just the piston valve looks nicer, but you will lose a bit of power because of driving the valve gear. Slide valves are slightly different in that you can adjust the steam timing as well, but have the disadvantage of using an extra channel just for speed control.
I will see what I can come up with regards to getting the slide valve a bit smaller.
John
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John, I would be a starter for the engine at original size, it would fit fine in my 2m long paddler and I am sure the present boiler would be more than adequate. It would replace the present single cylinder to A H Rayman design which would elimate the usual single cylinder starting and reversing problems and also get the weight down lower which would help with the amount of lean in turns. The single could then get coupled up to a flash boiler which Rayman also offered as an optional design and could go in a steam hydro which is another dream for "one day when" or perhaps a hydroplane paddler if Ernies works.
Derek, just because the sun shines out of your nether regions does not mean that it is the first place to see the sun each day! That is why droves of people did not come to Aus to see in the start of the new millenium in case you were wondering. Cheers, Ian.
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To try to sort out the problem, I have come up with a few ideas to get the size down a fair amount, still end up with a powerful engine, and have a good complicated looker, and reliable, just by moving the control gear onto the top of the cylinder and a scotch yoke action for the piston valve being driven by the big end. I will see what it looks like when I get it onto paper and do a few calculations. Length is a problem because just for a basic calculation you need about 3.5 times the stroke to fit everything in, so 15mm stroke, the engine will be about 52mm long.
Just going out now to smoke a few thousand fags to get all the packets I'll need.
John
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John and all
I have been watching this thread with some interest and questions.
At 15mm stroke I am having a hard time understanding why this is being called a large engine.
I am working on a model of the steam stern wheel tug Portland in 3/8" to the foot scale and the engine will be .813" bore and 3.375" stroke and I think of it as small.
What am I missing here.
Dave
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I've added a Poll to the topic, which should help to clarify which engine members would prefer to see John build...
Eddy
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Hi PD's....& yes Dave I fully acknowledge your point that the MVhTC14x18 00..as built would fit into a shoe box....so certainly is not big...& you could fit 10 into the boot of a Mini Minor...so that reinforces the fact that they are not BIG
My simple comments were intended that this engine has a much larger footprint ....than most of the offerings on the commercial market
To my knowledge, the only similar sized commercially available engine is that Y2D2 horizontal twin from SAITO...regards Derek
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Eddie, having voted in your poll it occurred to me afterwards that you did not include what I am sure would be the most popular option, namely "all of the above" just to keep John occupied for a few days. Cheers, Ian.
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Now now Ian.... We don't want to overload John with work so he cuts corners do we? :hehe
I was tempted to put in a "proper" diagonal engine as well, but I thought John might have hit me!! :shhh
Regards
Eddy
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Seeing it is being put to the vote, I will stop any further single brain cell power being wasted, until the results are known.
I will knuckle down when the finals are in.
Hope to have the new lathe here wed or thurs, so that is going to take up a lot of my time getting it all set and levelled. Maybe a week or so on that.
Is anyone going to the Midlands Engineering Exhibition this weekend?
http://www.meridienneexhibitions.co.uk/our-events-detail.php?id=0000000007
If the doc can sort me out a set of crutches, and the weather is fine, I will be trying to get there on my mo'sickle on Saturday. Too far for me to drive the car.
John
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Hi again All
I think I now see where my confusion is. When you say paddle wheel you are talking about one that is chain or gear driven of the crank shaft of the engine. When I think Paddle wheel I see one that is direct coupled to the engine via pitman arm. As in the picture below. From center of shaft to center of crank pin is 4.5 feet in this picture and will be 1 11/16 inch on my model.
I did down load the plans from post one and it is a nice looking small engine ;D
Dave
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Hello John
I intend going to the exhibition this Saturday.
For purposes of recognition (rather than trying to frighten you) I've added my picture.
Malcolm
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Hi Malcolm.
If I make it, I will keep an eye out. I will only be able to manage a couple of hours, so I will be away by about one'ish.
Been to the quacks this morning to see about a walking aid, seems like I have to be measured up for it, so that will most probably take a few months. So it looks like I will have to mug someone and pinch theirs if I am going to make it to the show.
I use these shows as a meeting place for friends I have made over the years, getting very few now, lack of breathing has caught up with a lot of them, and it seems very few youngsters are taking it on, they want instant gratification, and machining doesn't do it fast enough for them.
I suppose it will be all CNC soon. Draw it, stick a bit of metal to a table, press a button, job done.
John
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I suppose it will be all CNC soon. Draw it, stick a bit of metal to a table, press a button, job done.
John
If it was that simple John I would not have spent 2 years at college, plus a couple of years actually figuring out how to really do it on the Job. I will admit that once you get a program and machine set up it can be as simple as pressing a button. I also feel that the way training is done here is wrong, I think that to qualify as a CNC Machine Operator or Programmer that you should be a Qualified Machinist first. End Of Rant.
Regards,
Gerald
PS When you said you were going to try to get crutches to go to the show with you motorbike, it brought back visions of an old acquaintance who had a trailer made for his motorbike that he carried his electric wheelchair on.
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Hi Gerald,
I wasn't trying to belittle CNC in any way at all, it was just a way of getting it across that manual machining is now becoming a dying art. Most backstreets used to have a man in a shop who could repair almost anything, within usually a couple of hours, and for a price that was affordable. Now sadly all gone, but I am trying to resurrect it in my own way, just to keep the my workshop running, as I don't allow the shop to take anything from my normal living expenses. If it can't earn it's keep, it doesn't run.
BTW, I already have a trailer, but don't need a wheelchair just yet.
John
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Hi John and group,
"I suppose it will be all CNC soon. Draw it, stick a bit of metal to a table, press a button, job done"
It does seem that people want cnc for everything arc eurotrade have proved this with there cnc range, looked good at the
harrogate exhibition.
manual machining still has its place,I still repair all sorts of items at work not as much as 15 years ago but still have to
pull the rabbit out the hat I would think about 1 or 2 times a month
(http://steamengine.jpg)
at home I have an old shaper chosen for what it can do and not very expensive so I don't require expensive milling cutters ,just use simple
lathe tools and can get a better finish with a shaper than a miller,it gives me the chance to make all my own tooling
which is what it does ok its not as quick but it works well even turns into a simple surface grinder/drill press with various adapters
I have a very small budget in my workshop so item have to be worthwhile or a I won't buy it or b I won't make it.
Regards
Steven
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Steven,
That is one of the reasons for going to the show, John Stevenson did all the prelim work for Arc Euro Seig CNC machinery, plus he has designed a lot of the special tooling they sell, and he will be giving lectures about CNC over the weekend, I am just going because he is a mate to be seen.
Manual machining is now being recognised by the government as a thing to be taught again, the grandson is now doing the latest government thing at school, this is the first year, so they are guinea pigs. The only prob is, they closed down all the workshops and got rid of the machinery a few years ago. Now they are running round like chickens with no heads trying to get workshops set up again. The only problem is they can't get the skilled people with teaching qualifications to run the courses. So they are farming the students out to places that have teaching facilities. An hours trip each way, just to maybe get to use a machine for an hour, most times not. Shown how to do it, but no hands on.
The grandson is lucky, he will get one to one tuition for as long as he likes, not just an hour a week. If all goes well, after 3 years, he will be one of the 'skilled' ones, and in great demand.
Anyway, this is going way off topic, are you lot still trying to decide?
John
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Hi Steven,
One of the first machines I learned to use was a Shaper, they make a lovely sound when running (the shop would not hire anyone as an Apprentice just general help).
Hi John,
I realize on rereading my post I may have been a bit strong, my apologies. I hope you do get to the show I looked at the link and it looks very interesting. I am glad to here that they are recognising that manual machining needs to be taught again. Unfortunately they haven't realized that over here yet. As for deciding I have already voted and unlike some Political Parties we can't "Vote early Vote Offten" (We are having a General Federal Election today).
Regards,
Gerald
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Hi John, just say when you want the poll to be locked and Eddy or I can do that for you. That'll let you get your design finalised and into production sooner ;D There ususally is a time limit set on polls when the poll is added so I expect to come back from holiday to find out what you are going to be building.
cheers
Jim
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No problems Jim,
Just let it run it's course. I have a bit to do before this anyway.
Lets just keep the members happy.
John
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Goodness PD's :shhh... but.........just because I was the first [with first sunlight] to vote for the ?????? [real full size] ....does not mean that bogstandard will accept our vote.......it may really depend on the packages of kanga bones & how Bandit & Vinnie accept these..... :nahnah :terrific....Derek
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Derek,
I am at a bit of a loss at the moment, my design team has deserted me, and me only having one brain cell, it is difficult to come up with new ideas all by myself.
For the last couple of weeks, Vinnie only comes home once or twice a day, and that consists of diving thru the dog flap, raiding the food bowls then doing a runner. Maybe he has found a little siamese to settle down with. If so, that is the drawing side out of the door. :squareone
Bandit isn't speaking at the moment, all because of the lathe fiasco. Until that is in and set up, I can't put the benches and other things into the shop, which means he has been relegated to a dog basket on the floor, a big step down from the padded shelf under the bench top. So he is sulking. Also I have told him that he will have to start wearing safety glasses in the shop, he doesn't like that idea because he thinks it will spoil his superdog macho image. But rules are rules, and safety comes first. I can't afford the vets bills just because he chooses to ignore safety precautions. I have got the specs, but he won't hold still for long enough while I nail them on. :whistle :whistle :sunglasses
These were taken only a few minutes ago.
My poor old workbench sitting outside in our beautiful autumn rain.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/benchoutside.jpg)
The bombsite. This lathe will be replaced , hopefully next monday, into the same position. I can then commission it, then move it into its final position where the shop vac is at the moment. Only then can anything else be moved in. In the bottom left hand is Bandits dog basket, so I can see where he is coming from.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/bombsite.jpg)
John
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Hi Pd's.....& don't loose heart John :shoot.....according to the laws of the latest studies.....about brain celllllllllllllllllllllls......
1) moderate :beer is sufficient to send one ...deaf + dumb + blind + others
2) moderate :coffee now appears to be carcinogenic + bad for the heart
3) thank goodness I gave up the fags 10 years ago
Do not be worried ...be happy for Vinnie if he has found a multi racial relationship with an Asian poodle around the corner..never can tell.....the new family member could be a design draftsperson DOG in disguise :hehe :ranting.....Derek
mmmmmm. I think the 5/8" UNEF lubers [LH thread] [1/4 the surface area of Scotland] are now out of totally out of fashion & the glass shelled units from Winfried ...are the way to go..... :towel
PS....
1) how does your good wife hang the clothes on the line when your junk is in the way?
2) is that some sort of Asian Cherry Blossom in the snap?.......Derek
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Steven,
That is one of the reasons for going to the show, John Stevenson did all the prelim work for Arc Euro Seig CNC machinery, plus he has designed a lot of the special tooling they sell, and he will be giving lectures about CNC over the weekend, I am just going because he is a mate to be seen.
Manual machining is now being recognised by the government as a thing to be taught again, the grandson is now doing the latest government thing at school, this is the first year, so they are guinea pigs. The only prob is, they closed down all the workshops and got rid of the machinery a few years ago. Now they are running round like chickens with no heads trying to get workshops set up again. The only problem is they can't get the skilled people with teaching qualifications to run the courses. So they are farming the students out to places that have teaching facilities. An hours trip each way, just to maybe get to use a machine for an hour, most times not. Shown how to do it, but no hands on.
The grandson is lucky, he will get one to one tuition for as long as he likes, not just an hour a week. If all goes well, after 3 years, he will be one of the 'skilled' ones, and in great demand.
Anyway, this is going way off topic, are you lot still trying to decide?
John
Hi John,
It is interesting that Engineering is having a second showing at schools,about time,that is where I realized that I wanted to be a turner.
I suspect most engineering teachers have retired now,I know that the ones that taught me have.
I just might have a look at Teaching..
Your grandson is very lucky ,I know it is hard to find somewhere that has got a lathe you can use, most just bought simple cnc .so you learn nothing.
but nice to watch .
right enough, here is my views on your steam plant and why
I would go for a wobbler ,why? ,for me it is the movement it adds character,its less complex and there is not that much difference in steam consumption,for use in a boat I think that wobblers are very worthwhile,says he who is building Malcolm Beaks MB22 which isnt a wobbler.
I seem to get the impression that a Model Steam Engine has to have valve gear and slide valves and.....,why ?
could be that I am too young when steam was around.
but if you build the piston valve ,I would be tempted to use JvR style round slide valve as it makes it much easier to drill the ports
there would be no reverse without a gearbox but that is only a minor issue.
Hi Gerald,
"One of the first machines I learned to use was a Shaper, they make a lovely sound when running (the shop would not hire anyone as an Apprentice just general help)."
originally I learn't to use one at school then at a training college ,never in industry,I would not be without one now.
very few machine shops would have them today.
Steven
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please put my name on the list John.
I'll be at the MMEE, not sure which day yet.
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Hi PD's.....6, 3 the 4 votes for variations on a theme for an engine build......I think I would have more success at guessing how much my SUPER fund will tell me I have lost over the next year...due to Sub Prime Mortgage issue...like this time last year I did not know what it was :shoot
:ranting...I was planning to retire within a year or so & finish PS Decoy.....but :sobbing about the latest share price....I may have to work until ?????? :squareone...........Derek
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Hi PD's....& :sorry Eddy....could I please withdraw my vote?...publically so it appears as it appears ....... :towel....Derek
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You can now "Remove your vote" Derek, though I'm confused as to why you want to do that?
Regards
Eddy
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Hi PD's & thanks Eddy for the 'reversal' of vote facility....its like a cool off period ....after you sign a new Contract :nono
Reading between the lines.... :shhh...by comments, I saw members [prospective purchasers] thinking that the MVh TC 14X18 engine as built could be used in a conventional model vessel as is
It is a beautiful twin cylinder engine......it would be self starting with no dead spots....but it does not have any 'reversing' gear....
I acknowledge that John [our :respect bogstandard] suggested that he may be able to incorporate the reversing steam input from the EMOJ project
"Because of it being a piston valve, wack a fwds/rev controller on it and you are in business".......
However this is not defined .........regards :coffee Derek
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Just to answer a few of Derek's questions.
The one nearest the bench is a Japanese Acer, behind it is a Smoke Bush, olive green leaves in the summer, then change to a nice red in the autumn, on the wall is early flowering Clematis.
We have all been wearing wet clothes for the summer, they soon dry out, and don't need ironing. Getting a bit chilly now though. We are hard as nails in the UK, not like you wimps from down under.
It will have a reversing and speed control, dead easy on a piston valve or oscillator design.
And for Steven,
The one on the plans isn't a round style slide valve, it is in fact a piston valve, and as mentioned above is easy to reverse and control, a slide valve is a different type of beast, and as you said, to reverse one that hasn't got a reversing linkage can be a bit of a pain. Usually a gearbox or a slip eccentric is used.
John
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Just a quickie,
On my last statement, it sounded like I have been doing these engines for years, not so. It was our long lost friend Sandy who introduced me to these types of engines and I would like to thank him (if he is looking) for making me aware of all the different types, so I am not a super expert by any means, but I did make sure I learned enough about them on the way to making a few.
Another item is an apology to Malcolm. I went to the show today but unfortunately didn't stay very long (I was on my way home by 12:30), and even by looking as much as I could, it was so crowded (I even lost my helper who was with me), I never managed to find you, maybe another time, when space and time allows.
BTW, what I saw of it, it was a real good show, but a bit tight on space. So if you are inclined, it is well worth a visit. Still a few days left.
John
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:nono PD's........I cannot believe that bogstandard would leave Vinne behind @ the Exhibition then said ............
(I even lost my helper who was with me) :shhh :sobbing :sorry....do you think John, ......that my parcel of KANGA bones will intice him back?..........................Derek :hehe :hehe
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Sorry I didn't get back to you on this one Derek, I have been busy with my new plaything.
I don't think my mate Ralph the helper (6ft 4in superbeing) would like the kangabones, he is a vegetarian (no, not a cabbage). Vinnie has now shown up again, a few more scars, but a big grin on his face. Maybe he got his wicked way after all.
So, the vote will be closing soon, so make sure your wishes are known.
John
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm PD's...... :whistle my original vote has been reinstated :hammer........
One of the good features with our PD Forum ....is that it is based the Westminster System :gathering & :beer & :coffee...so who would I as of humble convict stock as to [TOO] question the next [superlative] engine build :crash :oops by our :respect bogstandard..
Derek :hehe
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It looks like we are going with the planned version.
So, as soon as I am able, I will start the post.
Don't hold your breath too long, I have a lot to do before I can start, maybe in a month or two.
John
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OK...PD's.....it appears that we have 3 members + me ...so equals 4 members desires of the 'bogstandard horizontal twin'
My role in real life is a facilitator so suggest
1) each of our four PD members post a PM to bogstandard confirming their intention to purchase
2) each of our four PD members post say POUNDS UK 100 each as a deposit prior to commencement of construction
3) each of our four PD Members agree to pay the additional engine build costs prior to despatch + consolidated AF where applicable
Who is brave???????---------------------Derek
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Unlike our very eager Derek, I am not one for deposits, or firm orders. I know that from previous experience with my engines, as soon as the collectors get to hear that I am making a batch, they will snap up any that are not taken. I have never had a single one left over.
You never know what will happen in life, so I can never definitely guarantee delivery, but if anyone would like to be considered for having one, please drop me a PM. That will not be classed as a definite order on your part, just an interest. As they come to completion, I will contact you and still see if you still require one. This is just to get an idea of quantity to build, and only that many will be made, so it is no use coming after the start of the build as I will be purchasing the materials only for the initial number. Doing it that way, your anynomity is assured, and if you do want one, you will be guaranteed one of the batch when finished.
I expect the finished price to be between £250 and £300, and rest assured, only the best materials will be used in their construction. That price will also include a displacement lubricator and a purpose designed speed control. So this engine can be controlled with one servo.
I am also looking at fitting a few with a 3 to 1 reduction gear set built onto the end of the engine and if required, a flywheel. These would add slightly to the cost, but not by much, just enough to cover material costs. But bear in mind that both these items would make the engine slightly larger in footprint or height.
Just to let you know, I am not here to sell you engines. If I wanted to do that I would have set up a production line. There are plenty of people making a living out of that in the wide open world, I get enjoyment from making and showing, and maybe at the end of it, get a little bit into the workshop fund for my troubles.
John
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By the deathly silence, it looks like the price has scared everyone away. You wouldn't expect me to become a charity and work for £1 an hour would you? By the time these engines are completed, they will be worth double that, maybe more.
No worries, I have firm orders for two from two other enterprising gents, and I will need one for my collection. So I have three to make, and that works out rather well. So I will get my materials ordered and when the machines are free, I will start to show how to go about making an engine from other peoples plans.
Watch some other space, as I will raise a new post about it.
John
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Hi John,
I would have thought your price was very fair, given your excellent reputation, and quality of work, even more so now you have your new workshop almost complete. But, some always want a Rolls for the price of a Mini. Wish I could indulge and order one, but my resources are stretched somewhat trying to cover my current live steam NZ river paddle tug project. (vertical twin, geared drive as per the original).
Enjoy your building, as I will enjoy following your build thread here. Its a pleasure to see such a skilled craftsman at work, and gives us novices a goal to aim at, even if we can never attain that lofty peak.
kiwi
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Hi Kiwi,
It doesn't bother me one iota, the offer was there.
I would be quite happy making just one for myself, the other two are just a bit of a bonus for the workshop fund. That will pay for a few more cutters that will get blunted in the making of the engines. My small Isreali made solid carbides are running at about £45 each, with the current rate of exchange. But only the best will do. I dropped a large cutter the other week, imagine watching £70 falling onto the floor, then having to go straight into the bin, because one of the teeth had chipped.
People don't realise that there is a lot more to machining other than time and raw materials.
Almost anyone could build an engine like this, given time and resources. Where the experience shows is the much slower growth in my recycle box. In the early years it was quite common to make two of everything just to get one that was acceptable, but not perfect. Now I very rarely have to reject a part, almost all are perfect.
John
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And one more is added to the list now that my order has been placed! :)
It's stretching the funds slightly (okay I'm skint!), but I can't afford to miss out on the opportunity of owning one of Johns engines!
I just have to find a nice open paddlelaunch to put it in.... I still haven't found anything I really like, so it may be a case of designing my own paddlelaunch.
Regards
Eddy
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OK PD's......with the world economic system & my superannuation in tatters :sobbing...I have chosen to invest with Mr John Moore .... :hammer...in Engine No 4 from the first batch :terrific
...bogstandard......despite your previous comments :shhh...this is a firm order.....but cannot pay by 300 quid in an envelope ::)
1) please deduct the cost of that 7/8" UNEF left hand lubricator...it would never work in the southern hemisphere
2) please confirm if 4,785 kg's of dried ...garlic flavoured wine dipped KANGA bones would suffice payment...
3) prior to manufacture of Engine No 4 :hehe :yeahbaby...please lets work out a payment system that is acceptable to Bandit & Vinnie
:beer...............Derek
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Hi PD's......& just before your second :coffee....bogstandard .....could we please talk about both of these these additions
am also looking at fitting a few with a 3 to 1 reduction gear set built onto the end of the engine and if required, a flywheel. These would add slightly to the cost, but not by much, just enough to cover material costs. But bear in mind that both these items would make the engine slightly larger in footprint or height.
Derek
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Derek,
£300 would be the maximum cost, the lower figure is what I will try to hit. It all depends on raw material costs, especially the brass plate. As you know, copper based products are highly volatile at the moment due to China and India sucking up all available recycleable material, and in the last few months almost everything has doubled in price. It is thought that prices will drop dramatically towards the end of the year. :goodnews:great
What do you need to know about with regards to flywheel and gearing? Surely you can't expect me to get them in the original footprints? :hammer The flywheel will fit onto the end of the normal crankshaft, the gearing has to increase either the length of the engine, or the height, depending where you would require the output shaft to be, lower or higher. Higher would be preferential as it would put it a lot closer to the paddle lineshaft, or maybe a little bit of both. I could do a rough calculation as to footprint sizes, but I would need to go to my catalogues and get the sizes of the suspected items. Very early days yet.
In fact I was looking at making both them removeable, just in case people didn't require them.
So you don't require a lubricator then Derek? Just wondering how long you would expect the engine to last, unless you have your own designs for fitting one. Or is it that my last design was slightly offputting. I can assure you, that was going to the extremes, on these engines they will be just 'normal ones'. :whistle
John
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Hi PD's.......OK bogstandard ....you know I am of convict stock but my order is still firm........so let's just add the fly wheel
....yes please delete the cost of the 7/8" UNEF left hand lubricator.....the glass version by Winfried Niggle is the way to go
{I take it from your non comment that the 4,785 kg's of dried ...garlic flavoured wine dipped KANGA bones would suffice payment...is not acceptable..... :hehe}..........Derek
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Derek,
I take it from your non comment that the 4,785 kg's of dried ...garlic flavoured wine dipped KANGA bones would suffice payment...is not acceptable..... }..........Derek
I wouldn't say not acceptable, but would you take offerings like that from a culture that drinks an amber coloured liquid that they call 'beer', where anywhere else in the world would be called by a name that describes a bodily ejected liquid, and that eat poor little harmless grubs out of the garden. I think not.
Just so that everyone else doesn't feel left out, could you please show me a picture of one of these Ninfried Wiggle lubers, complete with something to scale by, unless it is patented, everyone just might get one, depends how much work is involved.
John
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Hi, here's the lubricator from Winifired Niggel I have installed in my boat and the link to his website:
http://www.modellbau-niggel.de/Verdraengungsoeler-l203.html
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Hey Bog's
How much for the export model, to the US of A, Rochester, New York to be exact? :sunglasses
Good to see your still at it. By the way, my lips are sealed. :-X
Regards,
Bernd
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Kno3,
Those units are very well made, I couldn't compete for the price he sells them at.
He is either importing them from the far east, or has a good foundry and CNC to work with.
Hi Bernd,
Glad you found me, welcome to my first home.
Nowhere near as active as I was, but can't complain. It can only get better, I hope.
I hope you don't inform the others I am here, this is a model boat site, and I wouldn't like to be responsible for it getting flooded out with model engineers. They have enough trouble coping with the ones they have now. We are an unruly sort of bunch.
I will send you a PM
John
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John, I believe he makes them himself.
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Hi PD's.....
Kno3......is that 'Liquid Paper' correction fluid on your steam lagging?........looks beautiful
Bogstandard......stick with engines :hammer...you do a wonderful job.........I don't know how Winfried markets his glass tube lubricators for such costs.....another French manufacturer sell a slightly larger unit for approx 3 times the cost
Oh BTW...the Customs & Excise Department have rejected my application to export Australian natural bits of bones....Garlic or no Garlic :gift....Derek
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Yes it is, painted over cotton thread.
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John...as Kno3 says......yes Winfried manufactures all of his marketed components [apart from gauges & glass tubes] himself.......according to his WEBsite...the lubricator pressure glass tubes are Scottish?
Again no castings are used........but components all silver soldered & bead blasted....we spoke about this on PD's some months ago....here is the minature bead blasting machine..........
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Kno3....here is my rendition of Liquid Paper over the finest quality Australian 100% cotton twine :whistle....Derek
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John,
Got your PM. Hopefuly mine made it to you.
Bernd
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Derek,
If that's truly liquid paper, it makes those pipes look very prototypical. Must be that 100% twine that does it. :bravo :porkies
Regards,
Bernd
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Hi is that one of the Wilesco engine/Boiler units?
Regards,
Gerald
PS John I would order one of your engines but 300Pds is almost half the price of the mill I want, If I can get the Mill I should be able to follow the build here and build my own. So please continue with the build I have always found your work educational
Regards,
Gerald
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Goodness Eddy....since you will be the owner of No 4 Engine..... & me the owner of the No 5 Engine...could you please rename this as .....what ever you think......how about "Horizontal Twin Paddler Engine ...by Bogstandard 2008".....your call - Derek :coffee
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John has already said he will start a new topic once the build begins Derek, so there's no need for me to do anything ;)
Eddy
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I can't rush into this one, but when I get the time and energy, it will be all hands to the pumps, just like the last one.
Gerald, as I said before, this is an interest build, and if it helps you in some way, then great. I am not into making engines for a living, I just use them to support the shop in making models. The income will come from other workshop work. People don't have the facilities I do, so that is why I am building a few.
Now Derek,
About that fiddly little blaster you showed in an earlier post. What a wimpy little thing. Below is mine, given enough pressure it should be able to fire small marbles. But I am lucky, and have a contact who gets me as much glass bead or grit, in whatever grade that I require, and it is just a matter of swapping medium and adjusting pressure to get the effect as needed. Twenty squid from Machine Mart, plus you need a damned big compressor to feed it.
What will do a lot will do a little, but not the other way around. Take no prisoners in this game.
John
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Oh dear PD's ... :sobbing.sometimes we must forgive them for they know what they say........[courtesy of JC a long time ago]....the glass bead bit & thing that Winfried uses is based on a VACUUM principal........I would not call it WIMPY....more an inteligent sized :hammer blaster for little bits :nahnah....Derek
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Kno3....here is my rendition of Liquid Paper over the finest quality Australian 100% cotton twine :whistle....Derek
Looks great and the engine too.
By the way, do you have more pictures of your ship? I'd like to see it.