Paddleducks
Large Paddler Builds => General discussion (Large) => Topic started by: michael on March 15, 2008, 02:33:08 PM
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Well today was the first day under new ownership with the hull and engine being removed from present location to my place. With the help of a few friends, a crane, semi-loader and a couple of tractors the nightmare I had didn't come true and everything ran smoothll all in a couple of hours. Present I have the hull in the paddock waiting to be put in the shed. Engine in the shed about to be dismantled to see what condition its in, whether it can be re-used or not.
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Hey Michael, - glad you got her to your place OK ! - she looks much bigger in these photos !
I have some images of her from 1986/87/88 etc. but unfortunately they are all in slide format - no photos.
Then again, the Plowman Book of 2005 has a fairly decent photo of her in it.
I'm pretty sure she was built in 1981, by Basil Bryce, who also built the 'P.V. Colonial Lass', and I'm still thinking that her hull was ferro-concrete but this could have been an error, unless the hull was replaced at some stage.
She looks to be about 35 - 40 feet in length, so maybe a smaller deckhouse than the original one would be better.
Actually, where abouts did you find her ?
Good Luck with the re-building - you're sure going to be busy now !
Cheers,
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She is much bigger than I thought she was from the original photos.
Very exciting Michael-would have got back to you yesterday but I'd just got to a wedding!
Sean
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At the moment I am thinking of leaving the hull as it is, except for a couple of sections need to be replaced from where the chain bent the chine when it was lifted from the river, put a diesel in it, walk though hull and cabin at the stern, open front and use a pleasure boat so will be like PS Murray Queen or Austria. The reason it sank was it was top heavy, I don't know how the hull managed with the superstructure as it actually isn't very big 10m long 2.6 at its widest.
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Michael and I are chatting about his plans offlist. Stability, rather than space, has been an important issue.
As is, the Sundowner hull (10 m x 2.6 m) is little larger than Jessie II (9 m x 1.8 m), and is similar to the Mundoo update (9 m x 2.4 m) of my Tennessee hull. The Mundoo can hold a double bed, a dinette for four (converting to guest beds), a kitchen, a toilet/shower and the wheelhouse. Both styles achieve this by using walk-through hulls.
Stability issues have been explored elsewhere in Paddleducks.
* PV Eliza-Ann (page 4 of APAM lop1); search refused to find that post. This recessed the lower deck into the hull, but then had an upper deck too.
PV Lady Rae (try a search).
Both are regarded as top heavy, and both have outrigger floats.
Somewhere else, the history of PS Ruby records that deckhands maintained trim on bends by rolling water-filled barrels from port to starboard (or vv) on curves. This is similar to ballast tanks with high-speed pumps on modern roro ferries. Ruby had a shallower draft than the other big passenger paddlesteamers. The restoration has reduced the amount of superstructure on the third deck.
Potentially, Sundowner will be trailable, with a permit. Most other paddleboats are too large. 'Murray Whaler', has given some insight into how PS Minimus is trailed.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Just a quick note, I got some paddlewheel rims today, abit bigger than i expected, 8ft dia, oh well, she will probebly be a mini PS Adelaide!
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Where'd the wheels come from? Off a boat we might know? They're pretty huge wheels for a boat that size. Get the paddle boxes right & she'll look pretty impressive!
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Sundowners history: Built about 1981 by Basil Bryce at Bamwan, south of Echuca. Used a pleasure boat around the echuca area doing a couple of trips up to Barmah. Was sold to a mexican who used it as a houseboat and was moored below the Caravan park, near Gemma's old mooring.
The owner went away and the boat sank, apparently he sank it to claim the insurance! The Amelia Jane(Rochester) owner( Jim Lawford) eventually got the rights to the mooring and raised the boat and took it to his place at Rochester. But he stripped it and moved it to his daughters property west of Echuca.
Their neighbour who i work with saw the fella stripping it and told me about it. I approached him and made an offer and he sold it to me. I put support beams in it and trucked it home. Jim Lawfors was going to rebuild it as a stern wheeler and made three 8ft paddlewheel rims but since he got rid of the hull the wheels ended up under a tree. I was told about the wheels and he sold them to me for a cheap price. And thats about the story so far
Attached is a photo of the hull in the shed with a wheel beside to show how big they really are!
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I just skimmed through some of my own photos to look for typical wheel sizes.
Perhaps most are designed for looks, rather than for any ideal size to transmit the power?
8 ft (2.4 m) wheels seem to be common on large two-deck vessels, where the lower deck is not walk through. This provides the convenience of having a stairwheel climbing up a paddlebox to the upper deck. PV Avoca had wheels which came higher than the lower deck.
Most smaller single-deck vessels (eg Ranger, Billy Tea, Tarney) which do not use walk through hulls have wheels which do not reach the top of the deck cabin (hinting at 6 ft, 1.8 m wheels). See Gemma on APAM lopm&r p11.
Some of the small but two-deck vessels have wheels which to not reach the level of the upper deck (for boats which do not have walk through hulls), or which do (for boats with a walk through hull). See Colonial Lass on APAM lopm&r p9.
On sternwheelers, Chalka appears to have a 2.4 m wheel (APAM lopm&r p5); Gypsy Ellen's (APAM lopm&r p13) appears to be smaller.
Enclosed: a photo familiar to Paddleduckers. SS Moose (which I interpret as SWPV) was one of the regulars in the random opening-page selection when there was just a small pool of photos. As it flashed by this morning, I grabbed it. Michael had been talking of going stern wheel for Sundowner, partly because it has a square stern. This would save the work of extending the hull to provide better water flow, and would remove the need to build sponsons. The result would be less spacious, but more trailable. Is the owner a member or friend of one? Could we obtain a report of how effective the paddle is?
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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I tried to sketch a design concept over Michael's photo, using Photoshop, but it was too crude.
A scale drawing was quicker, and posting it here reaches more people in one hit. Michael has seen it already, but was busy crewing for Sunday night's major paddlesteamer fleet sailpast at Echuca.
Michael and I have workshopped multiple design concepts over multiple hulls over the last few years, and this one incorporates many ideas which we have explored in the past. I have set up the main cabin and front deck to pick up the party deck of PS Adventurous (but with space freed by not being steam) and to match the aim of resembling PS Austria.
The surprise for me is that the large wheels don't look out of place on the small hull, despite the fact that they dwarf Michael, and the hull is no larger than that of Jessie II (same length, and only fractionally wider).
I put the cabin height at 2.4 m to match the wheels.
I put the engine amidships for weight-balance reasons. It would be quite easy to step over a floor-level driveshaft with a safety cover. There is space for the necessary supports for stub axles, and chain drives from the driveshaft to the axles.
The engine compartment and toilet/shower get the dead space, with no view, between the wheels.
The forward cabin gets forward and side views, and is the wheelhouse and guest lounge by day, and the master bedroom by night. The double bifold doors link it to the front deck: great for party cruising.
The immediate front deck is sunk to hull level (a technique used on UK canal boats), but the forepeak is raised above a rope & anchor locker, and to provide convenient access to riverbanks when moored overnight.
The rear cabin gets stern and side views, and is the dining saloon by day, and the children's or guests' bedroom by night. The table has a folding leaf to make it the right size for four people. It fills the seat gap to make the lower bunk; an upper bunk lowers from the ceiling.
The rear deck is extended on a cantilever over the rudder, and provides a sheltered space by day, and a barbecue deck adjacent to the kitchen and dining saloon when entertaining.
The roof provides a sun deck, with convenient stairwell access.
Normal mooring would be bow in to the bank, keeping the wheels and rudder clear of rock or mud. At high wharves, mooring alongside would work, with boarding via the roof and rear stairs.
The engine could go under the rear deck, but having a false floor for the dining saloon as well as amidships (2.1 m headroom instead of 2.4 m). An automotive-style driveshaft could sit between the floor and the hull. The fresh- and grey-water tanks would be relocated to the space shown as engine on the plan, adjacent to the toiler/shower and to the kitchen.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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He who hesitates is lost.
Make hay while the sun shines.
Strike while the iron is hot.
In this case, aluminium (not iron) and strike while the kitchen can-opener is available, the beauty of this construction material.
I am onforwarding this view from Michael. For efficiency as a sidewheeler, the water has to be able to flow back in around a tapered hull to reach the rudder, and also to reduce retarding turbulence. This is being achieved by narrowing the as-purchased square stern, rather than lengthening. Michael has the welding skill to assemble the needed fourth wheel centre; a mate has the necessary aluminium-welding skill to stitch the hull together in its new style, and to add sponson brackets.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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I called by Michael's Merrigum marina on Friday, en route to collect Jessie II for a cruise.
The rear view of Sundowner hasn't changed. The sides have been tapered; filler pieces are needed to link them to the stern.
The boat now wears its name: a task undertaken that day.
The floor has lots of angle cleats welded, to hold transverse or longitudinal runners. It seems that the main strength of the the hull comes from the internal framing. There will be a minimum 100 mm bilge. Michael was talking of an initial version resembling a gigantic personal watercraft (little noisy wake-making beasts like a motorcyle on floats, or a snow skidoo). This one will have a tractor (brand not checked), with the drive or auxiliary shaft connected to chains to the stub axles holding the paddlewheels.
Enclosed: Michael with Sundowner.
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Well I had the welder around today and he welded up the stern, and also put some patches over some of the chine where it was bent from being lifted out of the river. He will be back next Saturday to finish off a couple of small welds.
Had friends of the port cruise last night on PS Pevensey, was good to cathc up with Geoff (Murray Whaler) who was up for a few days.
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She's looking good Michael.
Keep up the speedy work and when I'm up at the start of July we should be able to go for a cruise! :P
Sean
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Well the speedy work kinda came to a halt with work and backyard jobs becoming to busy, but I've managed to get a few more hours spent working on the boat. I've sanded the paint off ( the first 1/4 the full height and the rest of the side about 300mm high) so i can paint her bottom half in black and paint the top half a bit later. Hope to frame the hull inside soon.
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I didn't know somebody was still building full-size paddle-wheelers, so congratulations, it's a wonderful project!
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The only available photo of PV Sundowner as it was originally is this one from Peter Plowman's book 'Murray Darling paddleboats', Rosenberg, 2005 isbn 1 877 058 37 8.
The book covers the river as it is today (or as it was in 2005), and includes many boats missed by older books.
I don't know about availability overseas, but you could work via www.rosenbergpub.com.au.
As built, the superstructure was quite major: virtually filling the hull, and extending onto the sponsons, and with a sponson stern deck too. Michael attributed the original sinking to the design being too top heavy.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Looked more like a bus than a ship ;D
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I purchased a 2.8l 6cyl diesel engine with automatic gearbox for Sundowner. Its in a very good condition and runs well. I'm now in hunt for a tractor gearbox, rear diff with a diff lock. I've found a few, just need one at the right price.
I'm getting the timber this week so I can start framing the hull.
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After having the girlfriend ditching me a couple of weeks ago I have now found all this spare time, and no excuse to spend it on Sundowner. I have got the timber for the framing of the hull, I have begun painting it with primer, then I can begin cutting it and fitting it.
There is a clearing sale on next weekend, with a few tractor wrecks, hoping to pick up a gearbox and diff there
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Sorry to hear, I guess she didn't like paddlewheelers?
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Haha your pretty much on the money there!! Today I got my paddleshafts, so I'm getting there.
Heading to Canberra this weekend for a mates wedding who has begun building his second paddlesteamer, I'm taking up some parts a mate machined for him, but the wife to be won't let us work on it, as its her wedding day.... Women!!!
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What's the boat going to look like when finished? Anything like the sketch on the previous page?
Those big paddlewheels are very good because, with fixed paddles (as I assume you will be using) more of the travel will be parallel to the water surface, resulting in more thrust.
Will the two paddlewheels be able to rotate independently for maneuvering?
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Last couple of weeks I've been busy framing Sundowners hull. The floor frames are down. I've done one side frames with the two frames supporting the paddleshaft being of IronBark cut specially from a Echuca Sawmill. Then tonight we bolted in the back half of the Keelson. Hope to have the other side of the hull framed over the next week or so.
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As of 10 Jan 2009 Sundowner looked like this, have done a bit more work, but the will be that will be done for a few weeks
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Michael has been a bit busy for a few weeks.
While he was in Melbourne in January, he called round, and sketched this quick concept plan. I have yet to see it drafted to his usual standards.
It matches the scale of the hull, looks traditional (and quite cute), and yet is practical for extended voyaging for 2. I can recognise some of the elements of SWPV Adventurous in it.
* Hull-height foredeck, with the engine under.
* Either hull-height or sunk party deck & steering position.
* Sunk toilet & shower between the paddlewheels.
* Sunk rear cabin, with kitchen and dining lounge converting to berths for two.
* Small rear deck cantilevered over the rudder.
Looking at the strength given by the framing to the hull in the preceding photos, this project could well be only months, not years, to completion.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Due to other commitments over the past 4weeks I haven't been as active on this site or on Sundowner, however it does look a bit different to the last photo's posted.
Sponson framing going in place, engine frame currently under construction, aswell some more timber and steel framing to the hull.
I will be moving it out of the shed in a few weeks time due to a party being held in there, so hope to have the hull framing completed by then.
Rods sketch is pretty much how it will look like, altho the shower/toilet maybe at foredeck height, not sunken!
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Michael, any news of your build?
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Nothing to exciting, actually nothing at all, been wasting my time on other things. But I have moved the boat out of the shed due to a large function being held in there.
Hull is all framed, I'm getting a rear diff out of a Mitsuishi light truck this week, as the other two that I have are either to big or small.
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Built the rear sponson frames yesterday
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Here are three photos showing progress as at Tues.23.6. There is now some superstructure framing in place: welded square-section metal tube to support the weight of the stereo system.
This will be about the smallest cruising paddleboat on the river (only PS Minimus is smaller), and it looks very similar in size to my 9 m Jessie II; Sundowner will have much more width because of having side paddles and sponson decks.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Sundowner 18 July 2009
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And a new rear sliding door.
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That sliding door, isn't it a bit too big for the boat?
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The door needs to be that size so you can get the just caught famous Aussie Murray Cod inside for cooking.
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Hi PD's & :no1b posting Misterbee...it surpassed anything I thought of.......gotta keep these Europeans on their toes :hehe :whistle :beer............Derek
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Last weekend I moved Sundowner to my place, so I am able to work on it more often.
Not much happening to boat itself, but got the sprockets on the diff and will have the engine in the next fortnight.
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At its new construction site with paddle boxes being built.
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Nice to see some progress. Those paddle-wheels are really big, it should look impressive when finished. By the way, how did you decide on the number of paddles per wheel?
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Seems to be taking shape OK, will be great to see completed (has the hull been tested in the bath yet :P )
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Haha no hull hasn't been tested in the bath, it hads been a bath with all the rain we've been having its always filling up!
Bought the wheels from the previous owner who was going to make it a stern wheeler, who also built PV Amelia Jane. Those wheels are 8ft dia with 9 floats, but they will be cut down to 6.5ft dia as they are too big.
There is a couple of paddlewheel rules I've been told... Same amount of floats as the same dia of the wheel eg. 8ft dia, 8 floats.
Or a paddlewheel should have one float going into the water, one in the water and one coming out aswell, so I guess it depends on how much water a boat draws etc.
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Hi PD's.....Michael.......there are unconfirmed :whistle studies that suggest an un even number of paddle blades are superior to even numbers
I think this was based by a knowledgeable gathering :gathering on a comparison to roller chain & always having an uneven ~~~~~~eg., a 14..to ..57 toothed pinion ratio so the little rollers in the chain links never contact the same position in the pinion causing premature wear :hammer :hammer :hammer :hammer
Like the last thing we would want to do is wear out the water :sorry :nahnah :picknose :ranting ....Derek :beer
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With the engine place inside
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Hi, that's quite a big engine!
Did you consider mounting it transversally? Then you could do without the differential and have a lighter boat, you'd just need a chain drive to the wheel axle.
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Hi Michael,
Impressed with the progress of your wheeler P.V.sundowner. thru the course of building my own paddlewheeler I have been fortuneate to meet many talented ,enthusiastic people who have also built their own wheelers,some of the boat I have been privileged to go for a ride on.One such gentleman,his name is Jon Arnold has turned out to be a wealth of knowledge.
Jon has built the P.V.Incredible,the drive train is an International 414 tractor diesel engine,gearbox and diff,he has used the independant braking system to the best advantage.When turning the boat on full lock she would come around 360deg back on to her original course in approx 3 and a half lenghts of the boat (boat 46 feet long)with your foot on the portside brake the boat would come around in its own lenght,magic for a tight mooring.I'm fitting the same system to my boat and would hope for the same result.A friend of mine also building a wheeler is using a 3 cylinder fergie diesel with a short diff,also fitting the same braking system,also hoping for the same result.Good luck with P.V.Sundowner
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Yeah I was going to go with a independent drive system, but being such a light boat, and having two half inch paddlshafts would have been too much strain on the sponson frames. Other ideas was having hydraulic on each wheel. Either was the boat is going to move and might not be as easy to turn around as yours, but we have a bit more current in the river up here which always help, so not to worried! Thanks for the ideas!
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Good to know you have a game plan,end of the day your the one who has live with your decisions.Have alway been impressed with the way the skippers use the current at Echuca upstream from Moana bridge to come around,especially the skipper on the Emmy Lou,true we don't have the current down stream,but what a beautiful river with all the changing moods.Good luck with Sundowner
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I had a phone call from Michael: he has made a great deal of progress, and has been too busy to take or post photos (and is without a computer this week). The cabin is vitually complete. If nothing appears by mid January, I will take a selection when I collect Jessie II for my January cruise. My November overseas tour took the place of a cruise. I was at Tocumwal last weekend, the water was up, and should stay up for a month (irrigation season).
Michael is nearly ready to put Sundowner in the water, but not in mid January. He is thinking of mid February.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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28th december 2009
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It's coming along nicely Michael, how much will it weigh when completed? And how will you get it into the water?
Regards
Eddy
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Michael has relocated from the farm to town, and his computer is not connected.
He is on annual leave, and using the time to get Sundowner into almost-cruisable condition (at the farm), for a launching around 20.2.
I won't be there, as I am rushing my February issue through before heading to Cuba.
He promises to get some photos up soon: first the latest construction progress, then the launching.
Regards,
Roderick
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Here she is as of yesterday, though the front deck is finished and the rudder is bolted on with a coat of paint.
Still trying to work out transport at this stage
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Hi PD's.......& looking brilliant Michael ....who smashed up the Port paddle box skin? :ranting ....Derek
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Nice progress. When are you going to mount the paddle-wheels?
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yeah had a little accident with the sheet when mounting it,but nothing to damaging, paddleshaft and wheels were fitted on today, didn't take a photo though
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17th febuary
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It's looking better and better! What with are the paddlewheels going to be?
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Hi PD's......just imagine sitting out on the quarter deck of PS Sundowner enjoying a :beer ...with a few mates :gathering ......watching the rudder ...whilst Captain Michael pilots a course for the afternoon BBQ ..... :vacation
Great project Michael............Derek :nahnah
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The big day is at hand. Michael is launching on Friday, at Echuca East ramp, which has room for the crane to swing. He is then propelling downstream to Echuca wet dock, using a tinnie (possibly his own Bunyip; I cannot have Jessie II available). This will take an hour.
I want to be present, but am leaving for Cuba next morning, and have yet to finish my formalities and mail out February RNV.
I have asked Michael to tow past the Port of Echuca webcam, and then phone me to log on at that minute. I can try to put out an alert to the group's worldwide readers. c12.00 Fri. Australia is c1.00 Fri. UK, and c18.00 Thurs. USA.
www.echucamoama.com/river-web-cam
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Michael is bringing Sundowner under Echuca bridge in 3 min. (13.30 Australia)
See the previous message for the webcam; I am there (ie the webcam), and Emmylou has just com under.
Regards,
Roderick
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I got a really good view, but mucked up the screen dumps. The gang is cruising downriver for perhaps half an hour before coming up to dock, so you get a second chance any time from 14.00.
Regards,
Roderick
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SHe has finally made it, and also has a new name PV STRUGGLER!!!! Enjoy the photo's
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Hi PD's & brilliant Michael........I was concerned & watching the water :thinking line.......great launching......... :beer Derek
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i would sell tickets for that deck chair with a few cool tins ready. :beer
well done
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Congratulations! Are you going to fit the paddles and the rest while the boat is on the water?
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Many congratulations!! I know how the emotions grab you when you see your pride and joy hit the water. Please accept our very best wishes, and I hope that Sundowner brings you as much pleasure as Monarch brings us.
A message to all those dreamers that wish for a paddle steamer of their own....stop dreaming, and bloody get on with it; it's great fun and it will change your life!!
All the best,
Matt
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Few more pics
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Hi PD's & brilliant Michael....................'I have said that before' :shhh that second .jpg taken from the wharf with Pevensey & Adelaide is a great understanding of perspective....& the river appears to have a reasonable level
I also relate to the blue ESKY with the white lid in the other snaps..... :beer :s_cool .....Derek
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Somebody asked if Michael will finish the work with PV Struggler in the water. Of course. The way the wet dock has silted, he could be barely knee deep if standing alongside. It is hard to believe that I was aboard a procession in 2003 which entered the dock, paddled clear above a submerged barge, and rounded up at the far end.
Michael has emailed me about the change of name: 'PS Struggler was an original boat, built in the 1880s, and burnt at Mannum in 1928 (Ships of the inland rivers p131). It was a small boat, but was used to tow big barges, which is what I plan on doing. I have been busy putting down the floor in the cabin and building cupboards for the kitchen, also have the steering wheel fitted. I am working on Sun.4.4 night for the sailpast, and then again on Monday, so I will spend the night onboard Struggler in my swag'.
Matt's message struck a responsive chord. I have watched Michael's dream evolve, through many possibilities, to achievement. It has gone much faster than many other projects which I have observed. We have Wentworth Junction Rally in July this year, and a grand fleet voyage in 2011 to mark the centenary of PS Industry in Renmark. Our two boats could well be voyaging in tandem.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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I was in Echuca for Jessie II to undergo a condition survey for the insurance company (it passed with ease, with all boxes ticked). Michael gave me a guided tour of the work progress on PV Struggler. The exterior is now painted in Echuca buff (white with red & blue trim is for Mildura boats). I didn't think that it looked dwarfed by the other boats moored nearby, but the first photo in my selection gives the impression of a small boat amid giants (which it is). What impressed me is how much larger it looks on the water than in the shed, and how much space there is. The foredeck really can hold a party, particularly when the sponsons are completed. The cabin will have room for a kitchchen, a settee/bed and a proper toilet & shower. Extra space is gained from compartments built out onto the sponsons, behind the paddleboxes. The motor is under the foredeck: a tight squeeze top to bottom, but with storage space to either side. Pending completion of the fitout, the boat is sitting slightly bow down, but the tanks and furnishings will bring the centre of gravity back towards the stern. Acting on advice from two builders, Michael has opted for floats which are 900 mm across, so the sponsons are quite wide. One photo was taken looking to the cabin rear; the other interior was taken looking down at the same spot, to the drive shafts across the front of the cabin. One reason for the name change is that, like the original namesake, it will be used for towing. The towpole is in position already.
I didn't pause to check the status of the other port boats. I notice that PS Pevensey is alongside at the wharf; it is to be slipped soon.
I didn't get to launch at Picnic Point, and so never saw the couple of boats which are there (reputedly one of the former flyingboat hulls is there).
I did launch at Deep Creek, but didn't come up far enough to see any paddleboat. This was just a quick jaunt to leave me time to finish April RNV before another overseas trip.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Struggler this week
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It's been a while since i have been on here ..... ::)would like to say great to catch up with you again, and of course have a look at struggler,A+ job mate was very impressed hopefully come sept thing will be finished.
Cheers Anthony
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Great progress! But am I missing something or is there no door to the cabin from the foredeck?? How do you get in?
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In my photo, Michael is standing to hide the hinges; the padbolt is hidden by the steering wheel, but the padlock is visible. Because it is only a half-height door, there is also a roof hatch: one crack is just visible. Because it has vertical panelling, the door blends in to the front wall of the cabin.
In turn, can you provide an explanation of your avatar photo? It looks iteresting.
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense now.
Off topic:
In turn, can you provide an explanation of your avatar photo? It looks iteresting.
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
My avatar photo shows a steam tugboat I have built:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3628/3415604142_4f6c5cb14b.jpg)
More pictures of the build here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28865130@N04/sets/72157606319984799/
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Michael phoned earlier in the week. He is hopeful of having PV Struggler self-propelled from this weekend. I have asked him to phone me, and to parade in front of the Echuca webcam:
www.echucamoama.com/river-web-cam
I will then place an instant alert on Paddleducks (although I could well be at a theatre matinee on Sunday afternoon), for those who no longer have World Cup soccer to keep them up all night.
I admire the organisation. During a trip to Qld to introduce his daughter to her grandparents, Michael dropped a major transmission component at Canberra on the way north, for machining, and collected it on the way south.
In the web cam view as I post, Struggler is hidden behind a bigger paddleboat.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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With crazy weather today, Echuca got a half hour hail storm!!
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Looks like the paddles are all installed. Very nice.
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Yeah wheels are together, and have attached some photo's of the drive system
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Looks like a very complicated set-up and no independent wheel control, so why do you need that car differential for? Please explain what it is supposed to do.
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Ouhhh..
With such a construction I would have killed all the chain transmissions and had fitted the wheel axles direct to the wheel flanges of the car gear.
And I would have installed a steam engine.
Andy
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Most Australian paddleboats don't have independent wheel control.
Combine that with high windage and shallow draft, handling can be quite tricky: particularly entering a lock. Nevertheless, that is part of the skill of being a riverboat captain.
It is quite common to use a spring line to come off a wharf, or a riverbank mooring.
Michael can explain more, but that transmission had to bring the power from floor level to paddlewheel-centre level: putting the whole drive shaft at that level would have stolen passenger space, and raised the centre of gravity undesirably.
Steam is romantic, but impractical for extended voyaging. It isn't just the work of cutting wood and loading it; a lot of wood is not allowed to be touched.
Nearly all Australian Murray-Darling paddlesteamers were wood burners. Today there are a couple of oil burners; also a lot of diesel-propelled paddleboats.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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He'd need the reductions in gearing provided by the chain drives to get the engine speed down to the needed paddle speed. Even with the gearbox and diff gear reductions the engine would be too fast to get slow speeds at the paddles.
We can get a fine low speed control with a electric motor in our models but not many i.c. engines like to run much below 600rpm. The gear reductions would increase the torque at the paddle wheel. I.C. engines develop their maximun torque higher up the rev range not at idle or low speeds.
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At some stage the drive has to be changed from a fore & aft shaft to a transverse one; it may as well be done with the diff which came with the motor.
Jessie II (four stroke petrol, not diesel) is redlined at 2500 rpm, and I often cruise at those revs all day. I will cruise at 2000 rpm in tricky water. 1000 rpm is only for easing out of moorings with restrictive speed limits.
A lot of paddleboats use tractor engines: readily available, and providing good torque at low revs.
Larger boats seem to use reduction gears; smaller ones use chain drive for reduction. A few used rope or belt drive.
Does the diff provide protection against a paddle jamming on a snag? The chain drive as such wouldn't. A rope or belt drive would.
That requirement has been mentioned in some of the modelling threads.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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The whole drive system is overkill for the size of the boat, the engine 6cyl could really be 3 or 4 cyl, tho i got it cheap, the truck diff could be out of a car however, i got it for a slab of beer! The paddleshaft could be smaller in diameter, but thats what size the wheel housings were.
The whole set up is for the engine to be doing 1000-1500 rpm and the paddlewheels doing 20 rpm which is a comfortable cruising pace, the diff has a 4:1 ratio, from diff to lathe shaft is 4:1 ratio and from lathe shaft to paddle shaft is 4:1.
I have added some photos from the last couple of days in Echuca with alot of rain fall river has risen so boats have been moving all around the place!
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Hi PD's......& thanks Michael...... the 17aug10.jpg is a :kewlpics
The reflection on the water is only from OZ
The "upturned tinnie" is only from OZ & made of aluminium :a102
Not sure of why PV Sundowner was the cloths line for others ...... :41
Anyway great shots.....
You could just imagine ....... :vacation...waking up.....a few birds swarking :c002 .......cooking bacon & eggs for breakfast & :coffee,....then a few :beer ...later on.......what a way to spend a day in OZ :kiss1 .....Derek
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Couple more shots from today. The rudder is now attached to the steering chain, the levers are in place by the steering wheel for throttle and changing gears, and got some stickers made for the front, looking good, and ready to go for a cruise
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How did you run the chain to the rudder, did you use pulleys?
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Chain runs through redgum pulleys at front of boat then through plastic pipe to back of boat the out to rudder with aluminium pulleys.
Struggler went for its maiden voyage over the weekend, with a high river in flood, steering not 100% right, little fuel in the tank and a crew of three we set out for half an hour around the port. With no major problems the trip was a success, boat moves along very nicely,just a few little things to fix up then ready for a summer of cruising!
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Great pictures, I'm glad its runs well. Are you going to paint the paddlewheel boxes?
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I had my first cruise aboard today (Sun.3.10). On Saturday night, Michael was crewing PS Alexander Arbuthnot for the sailpast and fireworks. There was no followon party cruise of private paddlers, so we headed to a pub thereafter.
Today we made a few test moves in the wet dock, and didn't venture into the river. The surprise for me, having seen the hull in the early stages, is how spacious the cabin is, even though it is not full length.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Few photo's out and about on a high river at Echuca
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I won't try to translate John Masefield's classic into a river vernacular:
I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by;
And the wheel's kick and the wind's song and the white sail's shaking,
And a grey mist on the sea's face, and a grey dawn breaking.
I must go down to the seas again, for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call that may not be denied;
All I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume, and the seagulls crying.
I must go down to the seas again, to the vagrant gypsy life,
To the gull's way and the whale's way, where the wind's like a whetted knife;
And all I ask is a merry yarn from a laughing fellow-rover,
And a quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trip's over.
However, Michael's photos of a river which has not been as good for many years tempt me to start:
I must go launch at a ramp again...
Waterways which normally are empty are now so much in flood that the problem is vertical clearance under bridges, not draught to the snags on the bottom. After years of drought, and finally a season promising a bumper harvest, the rain has destroyed millions of dollars of crops.
Another classic of Australian history, culture and humour: 'Said Hanrahan': www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/obrienj/poetry/hanrahan.html
What was the footbridge in the folio?
Is the windmill on the aft deck helping propulsion? Is it being driven by your slipstream, just to pump cooling and drinking water aboard?
The prize has to go to the arty photo of a paddle in action.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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With the Campaspe river in flood ( a triburtry river to the Murray at Echuca) and ideal cruising weather, what better way then to spend it taking your boat out. So PV Struggler departed Echuca wetdock mid Saturday morning, cruising downstream to the junction of the Murray and Campaspe, where there was a very strong flow coming down. We cruised on upstream of the campaspe, engine running pretty hard. Nearly made it to the first bridge 2-3km upstream before our first problem, the water pump for the heat exchanger wasn't pumping water thus, the engine got hot. Pulled up and investigated. In the end it was discovered the pump couldn't pump water out of the river as the flow past the hull was soo great it was sucking it out of the line. It was decided to turn for home, using a bilge pump to pump water through the heat exchanger allowing the engine waster to be cooled till we reach home, where we relaxed for the rest of the day.
PV Struggler as Billy Tea went up the Campaspe two weeks ago on a lower river, no current and got alot futher untill time was against us. Hopefully in the next week or two we will venture up there again
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This coming Saturday 26th February is Struggler 1st Birthday and to celebrate we will be cruising to the launching site (Echuca East Boat Ramp) where the 2011 SummerFloat will be happening... www.summerfloat.org
It is a gathering of people floating down to the port of echuca to support Breast Cancer Awerness. PS Pevensey will also be participating and will be have PINK steam, was pink is the colour used for breast cancer.
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Finally manged to get a photo on her birthday. Sorry it took soo long
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Aren't you going to put some side covers on the paddlewheel boxes?
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Had a little riverboat ramble today, headed upstream for a few hours with PS Ranger, BillyTea and Tooraloora for lunch at a sandbar, weather wasn't the best but great to do a group outing!
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As I entered Echuca on Tuesday, I looked at Campaspe River and thought that I could get Jessie II the whole way to the steam rally site (ie above snags, but below two bridges). I lacked the time. Michael announced that, with a week off work, he was doing better: he was leaving on Wednesday to take PV Struggler up Goulburn River, possibly even to Shepparton: over snags, but under three bridges (with the main Murray Valley Hwy one being the lowest, and also the furthest upstream). Current may be more of a problem. He has loaded up with lots of auxiliary fuel tanks.
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Just to use you Roderick, I took off Wednesday morning from Echuca, arring at Stewarts Bridge on the Goulburn about 5pm after a few stops. Upon reaching the bridge it was found even Struggler wouldn't fit under! So I turned aroun, after tking the photo's to prove I ade it, and camped a few bend dow on a nice bend. Returning back to Echuca Thursday. Saturday I then ventured up the Campaspe, taking only 1hr to get from Wet Dock to Beechworth Bakery, picking up a friend we contiued up to Echuca Rotary Park, Steam Rally Site, anothr hour upstream, not hiting anything and only a couple of small branches to squeeze past, could of entured further but time was against us. Will pos photo's soon!!
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Here are photo's of up the the goulburn river junction, the goulburn river, stewarts bridges, camping spot.
Campaspe River, tied up at Beechworth Bakery, Ogolive Ave Bridge, and at the Steam Rally site.
Cheers
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I am completely jealous, and am looking at my calendar to see if I can squeeze in a 2-day midwinter voyage, launching at Echuca East.
That is quite an achievement, and must have involved some careful tiptoeing.
I am a local, and can understand the geography. I enclose a Google Earth view to make it clearer for a world audience. To maximise screen use, I have turned it with north to the left (and hence NSW), and east to the top.
The main Murray shows clearly, as does the much smaller Campaspe.
Hopwood had his punt (and later his floating bridge) at the point where the Campaspe gets so close to the main Murray; he also had a bridge over the Campaspe, and tolled the lot. The original Echuca developed there. When the railway came (horizontal towards the top of this view), the town development moved to the railway as its focus.
That is why so much early fabric remained, and forms the core of the Echuca tourist precinct today.
Most short cruises from Echuca go down the Murray to the Campaspe junction, then return.
The three Campaspe bridges show fairly clearly: the straight roads stand out in this view.
The left hand one is mainly for town traffic; I have had Jessie II that far before.
The middle one must be the footbridge in Michael's photos, although it is not shown in the map in the VicRoads directory.
The right-hand one is Murray Valley Hwy, known locally as Ogilvie Ave, and is the one where Michael pictured Struggler passing underneath.
The steam-rally park shows as a circle nearly to the right of frame (between a church and a 'pine tree' emblem.
My memory is that there was a collapsed weir between the bridge and the site. There must have been sufficient water for Michael to float above it.
Campaspe River itself rises on the northern flanks of Great Dividing Range, between Woodend and the tourist town of Daylesford. It crosses under the main Bendigo railway and highway, and flows off the flanks via the town of Redesdale. It was tamed by a dam to form Lake Eppalock, supplying water to Bendigo (the state's fourth-largest population centre) and a popular boating lake. As it continues over the plains, there is a further dam at Rochester. During floods earlier this year, Lake Eppalock gained boatable water for the first time in a decade, and Rochester was flooded.
The Bendigo - Echuca railway, dating from 1864, crosses the Campaspe at Rochester.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaspe_River
Victorian Railways named its special carriages after Victorian rivers. Campaspe was a c1910 dining car. Sleeping car Coliban (from the same era) was named after the major tributary.
When local government went through a stage of forced amalgamation, City of Echuca merged with local shires to become Shire of Campaspe.
In the view, the convergence of the railways from Bendigo and from Seymour shows top right. To the right of that, I have cropped Echuca airport.
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Nice pictures.
Michael, what are your plans for the paddlewheeler? Are you going to cover the wheelboxes somehow?
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Post edited on Tuesday to get the facts straight.
As I crossed McCoys Bridge (Goulburn River, Murray Valley Hwy) on Sun.27.11, I had the car windows open and my deckie leaning out with a camera in case Michael was passing below on his aim to reach Shepparton. Too soon: the river was at just the right level to voyage in comfort, and yet get under the bridges, but PV Struggler had not yet got this far. Perhaps Michael will achieve Shepparton to Goulburn Weir too?
I haven't the time to launch and set out in chase.
When the railway came to Shepparton (1880s), that became the limit of paddlesteamer operation.
The building of Goulburn Weir further upstream sealed the fate, although one paddlesteamer was kept on Lake Nagambie to bring logs in from forest to sawmill.
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Your abit ahead of yourself there Rod! Murray Valley Hwy bridge is McCoys Bridge, haven't got that far, but not far from it. I am halfway between Stewarts and Yambuna bridges, achieving this In just one day, 8hrs cruising, when I thought it would have taken two!
Photo 1, Passing underneath Stewarts Bridge with ease
Photo 2, Tied up opposite RiverBend Caravan Park
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Recent photos of Michael's paddleboat have appeared in other threads, mainly at various celebrations.
Way back, somebody commented on the open paddleboxes.
Now Michael has started on fitting classic decorated covers. There is a deadline: a 2.8 event to mark the centenary of PS Canberra.
This was taken on a cameraphone, and it may not be possible for Michael to resize to post for himself, so here it is indirectly.
The decorative covers fit with tradition, but have their own distinctive style.
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Glad to read an update about this steamer. Could you post some pics where it can be seen all?
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Here are the other threads which I mentioned:
June 12 Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee parade
<www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5981.msg32910#msg32910> and scroll, particularly to the newspaper report.
2013 Easter fireworks parade:
<www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3196.15>, particularly replies 25, 26 & 27.
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Thanks. Very nice pictures!