Paddleducks
Paddler Modelling => Construction => Topic started by: mjt60a on April 27, 2005, 11:56:17 PM
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I ran out of supplies at the weekend so work on the Freshwater had to be delayed (but has now resumed!) I had some left over balsa and balsa cement, some Art Attack* PVA and the weekends' free newspaper...So;
I read an article once where someone built a boat using paper soaked in PVA instead of planking with wood and decided, just as a trial, to give it a go. I only made a very simple frame (didn't have much wood) about 14" long and started covering it, wallpaper style, with strips of paper, diagonally then vertically then diagonally the other way then horizontally etc. At first I thought it'd be a disaster, complete waste of time but after the first two layers dried it didn't look too bad (when wet, it was hard to handle without poking holes in it) so I added another three and this morning it was quite solid. I'm going to go to eight layers then see if it can be sealed effectively.... (each time a new layer is added, the existing layers seem to soften - as if wetting it 're-activates' the PVA so I'm not at all sure this is a viable way to create a watertight hull) ...
if it can, I suppose sanding sealer might work, I'll post a stage by stage description with photos if anyone's interested, might be a good way to occupy small grandchildren on rainy summer days if nothing else...
*Art Attack - a TV programme where they show young kids how to make stuff out of junk - you can get the PVA (non poisonous, or something) in most stationers/woolworths etc.
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Would love to here how it goes, I always new paper mache things would end up quite hard...but never tried floating any! (and it is kinda paper mache you'e trying!)
I think it definately sounds like an interesting subject, and would love to know more simply because wood isn't the easiest thing for me to get a hold of as the family doesn't always have time to go out and buy wood, so this form of hull sounds like it could work for me! So I'll definately like a few lessons in the subject!
It sounds like a good idea, except for the fact that I don't like PVA in water, with PS Reginald the glue between the hull planks began to get soft again, thus causing the bend in the hull and the non flat base (yes I worked it out) so I wonder if there's a better 'wet' PVA glue...hmmmm (maybe we should invent some!)
Good luck with the boat and make it a paddler! To make it a really simple boat you could add one of those "my first paddler' wheels (like the Reginald) a good old rubber band and piece of wood!
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PVA in water, yes, as I said, it does seem to 're-soften' so I'll have to come up with a way to waterproof it properly. Maybe if I'd used exterior woodworking adhesive (ie. evo stick in the blue container - I have plenty of that too) it would have worked better. I think people used to use shellac, I had a pond yacht as a kid, made of brown paper strips in this way and it lasted many many years. I expect sanding sealer would work if it has enough coats and is then painted with a decent paint (decent = I believe primer and some matt paints are not waterproof, so I'd use the stuff I used on the shed then matt varnish to dull the finish)
It could have a rubber band drive but I'll probably use a cheap toy motor about 3v, and side wheels, thought I'd make it an 'Aussie' steamer like Pyap as the superstructure looks easier to make in balsa sheet (no complex curved surfaces, cowl vents etc.) also the deck is pretty 'flat' and not much like a sea-going boat... :)
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I've often thought about trying a paper or gumstrip hull, but the thing that's always put me off is - How to get a decent finish on that sort of material.... I'd certainly be interested to hear how you manage that (if it's possible?).
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this is how it looks so far (remember, I'm just trying out the possibilities so it's not a very good shape!)
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/paperboat01.jpg)
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this is how it looks so far (remember, I'm just trying out the possibilities so it's not a very good shape!)
Absolutely Mick - It's the technical details I'm interested in, not the asthetics..
Keep us posted please....
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did a test on it today, covered it with three layers of sanding sealer, sanded and re-sealed the forward 3/4 of the sides and after drying, left it in the bath for an hour with a roll of solder, couple of tins of paint and the contents of a box full of meccano parts inside (still wasn't quite down to the intended waterline!), this is what I found;
The areas that had been sanded/sealed were completely dry!
The bottom of the hull which was just sealed, not sanded was OK too.
The stern area was getting damp, not actually leaking but becoming soft like when more PVA was applied, in another hour I think it would have failed.
So, what have I learned?
Waterproof adhesive would be better (Duh!)
Non-waterproof PVA can be sealed with sanding sealer so long as any creases in the paper (almost inevitable on concave/convex surfaces) are sanded down/resealed/sanded down as much as necessary to get a good flat finish.
It would have been better not to include the 'fin' at the back of the keel but to attach it later (like on that Tipstaff in ModelBoats mag) then the stern would be a continuous (though still curved) surface. This was very difficult to paper into the hull surface and is where it was getting wet.
More frames (or should I say some frames as there aren't any) in that area would have made it easier to get a flat surface (it's a bit rippled and difficult to sand - which is why I used that area to 'test to destruction' with only minimal protection).
It could probably be sealed using araldite if I was that bothered...
Certain types of hull (modern tugs, sternwheelers...) don't seem to have one anyway so would be easier to make.
If it dries out OK I'll see if I can correct it by sanding and sealing but if not, no big deal, it was only last weeks paper and some adhesive :D
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There are a few of us who have used the same idea to cover a styrofoam hull before applying polyester resin because it will eat the styrofoam just like pouring petrol into a styrofoam cup.
Two ideas.... Do what you're doing, but coat it good inside and out with sealer. I built a hull once back in the 70's and I didn't use waterproof glue. Though the hull was sealed inside and out, prolong usage caused it to draw moisture from the water and the glue started deteriorating.
Another idea is to build a paper hull and cover it with 3/4 ounce mat and resin. It would still produce a thin, lightweight, inexpensive hull.
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....Another idea is to build a paper hull and cover it with 3/4 ounce mat and resin. It would still produce a thin, lightweight, inexpensive hull.
I had considered that, it'd certainly work...
...one of these days I'll show my last attempt to build an unusual hull (ie using unlikely materials - anyone who saw my website, it's the one made with 'chickenwire and fibreglass!' - test hull no 2 - not exactly a sucess but I like to experiment...)
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Getting back to my concerns about this method of construction Mick - Apart from the issues with wrong glue etc etc, what sort of finish do you think it's possible to get using papier mache as a medium?
I'm concerned about the paper fibres raising up making a smooth finish impossible....
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I don't think that'd be a problem, on the forward areas which I'd treated with sanding sealer then sanded, treated again etc (just like as if it were balsa) the finish was like glass, if anything I thought it might have to be roughened again to get the paint to stick...
The 'leak' problem appears to have been with me rushing to complete the thing and getting an air bubble or two at the stern area as after it had dried, a hollow could be seen next to the fin where the PVA had disolved. If I'd built it without the fin and added one later it would probably have worked.
This morning I filled the hull with water to see what happens if it sinks (with the inside not sealed, painted or anything)... as expected, the paper layers began to separate after only about 5 mins submerged. After an hour I was able to remove the hull, which was now like papier mache, from the balsa frame. The joins in the frame itself were made using Evo stik 'resin W' exterior woodworking adhesive and were unaffected by being under water for an hour so I'm going to re-cover it but this time using the evo stik.
but first I'm going to make a few alterations to the frame :P
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Pyap eh!
Nice boat (I've been on her twice!) too bad she runs on diesel now, but thats me going on again. The modern Pyap however does look different to how she used to look, but how you make her is up to you (and I love to see someone outside of our shores attempt and aussie steamer!) The thing about the pyap is she only needs something like 2'' of water to run...we had 2''6' when we were up there last...yeh we cut it close!
Good luck, and can you make an instruction guide coz I'm gonna make a paper steamer....and a paddly duck!
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I will photograph every stage this time (as I've now found out what things were wrong with the first design and need to be changed)
First I need to alter the hull slightly - I don't know if you can tell from the photo but the balsa frame in the bottom of the hull needs to be more like the shape of the one around the top (still shorter than the top but not so blunt as it is there, more tapered...), I need to cut off the 'fin' which you can't see there except as a diagonal strip of balsa in the stern so it can be papered over as a continuous surface then glue it back on over the hull 'plating'.
The finished boat won't actually be any existing steamer, I just think something along the lines of Pyap - ie maindeck with cabins/boiler/engineroom and wheelhouse, funnel & cabins above, haven't decided what to call it yet :?:
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Hmmmmm PS Paper? lol mybe not.
Pyap doesn't have an engine room anymore....just a wooden box covering the diesel motor...which makes the air smell funny by the way... and the top deck is now a tourist deck which most of the tourist steamers now have!
(including- melbourne, Rothbury, Pyap, canberra, Pride of the Murray,) so if you want other examples look up those steamers for ideas!
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haven't decided what to call it yet :?:
Why not take a leaf out of Ken Warby's book - He's the current World Water Speed Record holder BTW (317.6 MPH). He's an Aussie through and through - The boat he broke the world record in is called "Spirit of Australia" and his current boat which he will attempt to break his own record in later this year, is called "Aussie Spirit"
Both names sound fairly apt for a look-a-like Aussie paddler to me! :-)
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Hmmmm we had a steamer called the mooglewanke and the wandering jew....very australian i think!
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some 35 years ago, Ken Warby was the sales manager for an Australian Company named Warburten & Franki - and they were the importers of MAKITA power tools to OZ in those days
I had the pleasure of a business lunch with work colleagues & listened to Ken W outline his dreams - which came true - I think KW will be up there with the likes of Sir Donald Campbell & Uri Gurigan - [I hope I have spelt the latter correctly] - humble regards to the above - Derek
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Update; I've tried different two other combinations of materials to make this hull...
Paper strip glued with evostik weatherproof adhesive - didn't actually harden like the PVA, after soaking in water for an hour it became very flexible as the water soaked into the paper but it didn't fall apart. I'm guessing this adhesive is designed to maintain it's strength in wood that gets wet but is not itself waterproof.
Paper strip glued with craft PVA and sealed with thinned celulose dope -
excellent!, didn't get wet after an hour under water, dries to a hardboard like surface, soaks into the paper much better than sanding sealer did. This is what I'm using to make the hull.
I may try also three layers of paper/PVA then fibreglass (which I think would be best of all) and maybe paper/PVA then tissue/dope (that's what is described in the Modelboats article on Tipstaff but over balsa, not paper), it might work :?
The construction of the hull is described in a separate topic 'building the newspaper boat'
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I looked at the paintshop enhanced version and it looks like you have a good idea going...and it looks very australian mate lol.
I have had no time for paddle steamers at the moment...sadly school is taking up too much time!
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Thanks, I only hope it won't be too 'top heavy' (should be OK if I keep the rest of it light)
In one of the shops when I was looking for the 'circle cutter' I saw they had another type of craft PVA which (it says on the container) dries to a washable finish, so that could be better than the stuff I used, I didn't have enough money with me (and couldn't be bothered to go to the ATM and back) I'll get some next time I'm there and try again using this stuff (got another idea I want to try out and need a simple inexpensive hull to fit it in :D )
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The show so far....
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/paperboat02.jpg)
....not exactly as I'd designed it but close...needs some sealing/painting before it gets wet again! I found a motor to put in it last week, it looks like a '385' type with gearing attached and came from a bubble blowing machine (used by mobile discos) seems to work OK on 6v but is probably designed for 12v, I just need to figure out how to connect it to the paddle shaft.... :)
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...almost ready to run now, I need to make and attach the rudder and complete a few details/painting :P
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/paperboat03.jpg)
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Today I tried out this model in the test tank after Freshwater, it seems completely watertight and though a little bit 'subject to the breeze' should work OK if I fit a motor and R/C :)
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Looks like a great boat that maybe even i could make lol!
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wheelhouse painted and some details added!
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/paperboat04.jpg)
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Now started making the rail round the upper deck (this is also practice for how I'm going to do the same area on the Freshwater) also fitted a motor which seems to drive the paddles well enough....
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/leann01.jpg)
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/leann02.jpg)
...by the way, it's now named the LEANN (lee-anne - this was inspired by the name of the Emmylou which I read was named after country singer Emmylou Harris - mine's named after Leann Rimes)
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fitted and painted all the railings...
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/leann03.jpg)
...closeup of some of the wheelhouse detail...
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/leann04.jpg)
...I realise it could be better but have used only scrap (or otherwise second hand) parts and materials - just to see how cheaply it's possible to build a boat! Figures used are altered and repainted 1/32 scale 'britains ltd' zoo keeper and farmer from the 1970s/80s, can still be found sometimes in charity shops or on ebay (watch the prices on ebay though, some people seem to think they're collectors items... :? )
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It's looking good Mick - I don't remember you posting anything about the drive system (maybe you did and I've forgotten?), but what motors/drive setup are you going to use?
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I hadn't mentioned the motor before, it's from a 'bubble generator' (used for discos and parties) which I found in a scrapheap. I think it's supposed to run on 12 volt (looks just like a mabucci 385) but seems OK on 6, it has supressors already fitted probably to avoid noise interference when used with a sound system. It has gearing attached to one end so I'm using that with a gear on the paddleshaft. I attached the motor/gearbox to a piece of 3mm ply using a cable tie and glued two triangular pieces of balsa to the ply. This is then glued to the bottom of the hull, complete lash-up but seems to work OK. I now have to sort out the steering mechanism, there isn't much room (not enough to attach a servo arm) so I fitted a tiller which I intend to operate using a home made servo arm from styrene. Don't yet know how well it'll work (if at all!), we'll see...
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Hi Mike,
About the lack of space for steering arms, on a number of my models (including one of the small Lindberg tug kits) I have used a pulley system that works great. I use one pulley on the rudder post, and run lines back to the servo arms, if you include a spring in the line it gives you a bit of protection in the event your rudder gets knocked about.
Regards ,
Gerald
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Hey Mick. Excellent job! I really like the look of "Leann"... she has a very Murray look to her. Adding to what Gerald said about confined spaces for steering mechs, here's another idea I saw on a sternwheeler with Monkey rudders. He used model control surface cables used for activating rudder, elevators and ailerons on R/C aircraft. You can get a fairly tight radius with the smaller diameter ones and they have a very positive action, specially with small servos. Just another idea which I haven't tried on a model boat but I want to (like friction drives!).
BTW...Gerald can you send me a pencil sketch (or even better a photo) of your Lindberg Tug steering system with the pulleys and spring. I have a Lindberg tug converted to a Canadian WW2 "Ville" class tug which I'd like to finish..one day!!
Regards
PJ
Victoria, BC Canada
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PJ, that sounds like Gary Nelson's model of Jean, the Portland Oregon riverboat. I've got a few photos of his model so I've attached a couple of photos of the control cables connecting to the main and monkey rudders.
As you say, it's a neat and easy solution in a tight spot. Gary reckoned that using the cables solved a heap of logistical problems on his Jean build.
Tony
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Hi PJ
I am trying to borrow a camera to get some shots to upload, when I do I will take some of the steering on my tug.
Regards
Gerald
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The use of control cables is a great idea, I'll have to see what's available in the local model shops... :D
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Hello all, I've used a conventional servo with arm in the past , connected to a flexible cable which in turn provided a lifting capability on a deck crane on a harbour work boat. This worked well until the pin locating it to the servo arm sheared. The outcome of attempting to get to the arm to effect a repair left me with a seriously damaged (Abs) hull. I'd caution that you would have to make access arrangements in case something similar happened. Otherwise I've now put in place a mechanical link utilising Lego Technic gears and shafts to do a similar job in another model. This is still at the trial stage but appears to be OK for now. Direct driven gearing allows for more torque to be applied without inducing too much strain on the linkages, a bit of noise is generated, but I find this quite acceptable.
cheers
Jim
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Mick have you considered (I don't know if its possible with the motor though) controlling each wheel seperately as the control systema dn making the rudder a dud? just an idea, it might use less space! The boat looks really good, gee thats an understatement, I think it looks excellent! Especially the people in the wheel house and outside it, they fit the bill perfectly (because as everyone should know the people along the Murray and on the boats weren't the richest in the world...inf act they were most of the time pushing the line!)
just an idea Mick have you thought about adding wool bales onto the fore deck...just for that extra bit of realism? I'm sure you can make them out of calico covered small cardboard boxes...just a thought, if you need reference photos just ask...I'll have to delve though!
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Mick have you considered (I don't know if its possible with the motor though) controlling each wheel seperately as the control systema dn making the rudder a dud? just an idea, it might use less space!
I have thought of doing that (it would need two motors though - I have some that'd do) but I'll first try to make the rudder work :)
just an idea Mick have you thought about adding wool bales onto the fore deck...just for that extra bit of realism?
I thought of doing something like that too, possibly stacks of wood, barrels, or whatever else I might have in the modelling box, there's lots of space to carry (lightweight_ freight. Bales of wool would be good though, I can easily cut some pieces of 'expanded polystyrene' (packaging) and wrap them in sack-cloth or something....
....might even make a barge to tow around the pond :D
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I've been thinking about making an outrigger barge...they're really fascinating me at the moment, but the wool barges look great when loaded with wool...but dull when not! I have a stack of polystirene from my model terain making (for my war games) its an mazing thing! So versatile and lightweight..it just can't be spray painted! But you could easily make wool bales out of it. Other things you could consider as cargo would be wood, dried fruit crates or in the case of the Gem an Elephant
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I don't have a 1/32 scale elephant - but I do have a cow, crocodile (?), giraffe, chicken and a sheep plus a shepherd with a lamb, they were sent with the other human figures on board when I bought them on ebay! (the farm animals went with the farmer, the wild animals with the captain/zoo keeper) I don't intend to use them on a model :lol:
I've fitted the 'heath-robinson' steering components and they actually work pretty well. As the aft end of the hull is so confined, I had to put a tiller on the rudder post which now has to be worked by a lever.....(would have been easier to run the rudder tube right through to above deck and covered the mechanism with a hollow box of some kind...oh well, it's done now)
this is how it works;
(http://www.btinternet.com/~mjt60a/models/images/leann_rudder.gif)
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Just a quick update on the LeAnn, Fitted all the electrics so all that's left to do now is obtain a 7.2v or 8.4v nicad battery - though I've decided to fit it with a mast as well, with a lifting boom/block & tackle type arrangement for lifting cargo into/out of a barge alongside or 'snags' out of the water - whatever those are used for.
Can't ballast it until I get the battery but tried it with a 'quite large' lead acid 6v I have (outside the boat and connected by long wires) and it all works fine, just the motor is a little slow on 6v.
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Yeh you got the boom deal right...thats what they were for! handy for the places that didn't have a giant red gum wharf with hydraulic cranes!