Paddleducks
Paddler Information => Research => Topic started by: AlistairD on March 08, 2007, 11:01:25 AM
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We've had APAM for the past year or so, now its the time of CSAY, Clyde Steamer Appreciation Year and redress the balance towards the northern hemisphere and the home country
I intents to post old photos of Firth of Clyde, West Highland and Clyde River Paddle steamers, with a brief commentary on thier careers, as time permits me being able to scan them over the next year or so. Anybody else with photos of Clyde or West Highland Steamrs is welcome to add these to the forum
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Great news Alistair! I for one will await the articles eagerly!
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A welcome change of subjects. :D
Bill
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Sounds great can't wait to read about your boats!
Good idea to add the 'y' too...I never expected APAM to get so huge or time consuming.
Good luck, can't wait!
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Hi PD's & Alistar I think this is a brillant idea.... 'so, now its the time of CSAY, Clyde Steamer Appreciation Year' :bravo ... I am sure all PD's will enjoy the .. :post ings...you may even find more detail on one vessel "O/N 74682 built in 1876 by Henderson & Co of Renfrew Scotland"... the following is the only reference I can find to the builders of PD Decoy
"Having made the change from wood to iron, William Simons jnr took Andrew Brown, a naval architect, into the partnership in 1860. The same year saw the fourth and final change of location when the firm moved to Renfrew, Scotland, taking over the iron foundry of Fox, Henderson & Co and the shipyard of J W Hoby & Co".
:beer - Derek
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There were two shipbuilders in Renfrew, both specialising in dredgers, Simons and Lobnitz, about 1959 they merged to form Simons=Lobnitz
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/search.asp (http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/search.asp) is a good resource for Clyde-built steamers, although Decoy is entered for the wrong shipbuilder there, D & W Henderson, whereas she was built according to Parsons by Henderson & Co of Renfrew, probably Henderson Coulborn, later to become Lobnitz when a Danish engineer of that name took the yard over
This thread is really intended to feature the steamers, never boats, that operated on the Firth of Clyde and to the islands off the west coast of Scotland
----- Original Message -----
From: derekwarner_decoy (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:59 AM
Subject: RE: CSAY
Hi PD's & Alistar I think this is a brillant idea.... 'so, now its the time of CSAY, Clyde Steamer Appreciation Year' (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/bravo.gif) ... I am sure all PD's will enjoy the .. (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/goodpost.gif) ings...you may even find more detail on one vessel "O/N 74682 built in 1876 by Henderson & Co of Renfrew Scotland"... the following is the only reference I can find to the builders of PD Decoy
"Having made the change from wood to iron, William Simons jnr took Andrew Brown, a naval architect, into the partnership in 1860. The same year saw the fourth and final change of location when the firm moved to Renfrew, Scotland, taking over the iron foundry of Fox, Henderson & Co and the shipyard of J W Hoby & Co".
(http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/beer2.gif) - Derek
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We'll start with a postcard view of Rothesay from the early 1900s showing the Caledonian Railway steamer Marchioness of Breadalbane across the end of the pier, and the teetotal steamer Ivanhoe departing.
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The growth of steamer services in the nineteenth century saw the establishment of Rothesay as the major holiday resort in the Firth of Clyde. The rich merchants of Glasgow built houses and spent the summer there, commuting daily to their city offices by steamer and train
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From about 1890, the three railway companies operated their own steamers, the North British railway from Craigendoran on the north bank of the river, near Helensburgh, the Caledonian Railway from their new pier at Gourock and from Wemyss Bay, and the Glasgow and South Western Railway from Greenock Princes Pier. All three companies built fleets of paddle steamers and were involved in a fiercely competitive trade, at one time it took 80 minutes from Glasgow Central to Rothesay. In 1908 the CR and GSWR entered an alliance to cut their losses.
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The first world war changed everything with many steamers being taken over by the Royal Navy for minesweeping and some being lost, and following that, in 1923, the CR and GSWR became merged into the London Midland and Scottish Railway, and the NBR became part of the London and North Eastern Railway. Another war wreaked more havoc on the fleets and in 1948 the railways were nationalised, with car ferries taking over from the 1950s onwards.
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The Caledonian Railway could not directly own steamers and established the Caledonian Steam Packet Co to operate them. That continued through the LMS era and right up until 1973, when it was merged with David MacBrayne Ltd, operator of steamers and ferries in the West Highlands to form Caledonian MacBrayne Ltd.
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Although the railway companies dominated the scene, the private owners which had been there before them still continued, notable the firms of Williamson and Buchanan who operated services from the Broomielaw in central Glasgow to the coast.
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In 1901 John Williamson ordered a revolutionary steamer, not a paddler, but the first commercially operated turbine steamer in the world, King Edward. to operate long distance day excursions to Campbeltown and Inveraray.
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The last Clyde Steamer is the Waverley, built in 1947 for the LNER and operating in preservation since 1975.
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I This is just a brief overview, more to come
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Alistair
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Here's a photo of the Caledonian Steam packet Co.'s DUCHESS OF FIFE of 1903 in the 1923-24 'tartan lum' funnel scheme. The merged CSP and GSWR fleets had a funnel that combined the previous two liveries, the pale yellow of the CSP, topped with a red band and black top from the GSWR. From 1925 onwards the red band did not appear.
DUCHESS OF FIFE was built by the famous Govan shipyard of Fairfields, for the CSP. She was mainly on the shorter runs like those to Millport and Rothesay and served as a minesweeper in both world ward, finally going to the breakers yard in 1953 after 50 years service, and was the last of the pre-grouping (pre-1923) steamers to survive
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Something that may be useful Alistair, would be to post a map of the Clyde area, so people who don't know the area can get an idea of the geography...
And just to go off topic for a moment, it would also be useful for the Aussie threads on the Murray paddlers etc.
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I have been very busy for the past week working on the proofs of =my new "Directory of the World's Steamships" book, and have not had time to scan anything, have just posted a couple of images that were in my "My Pictures" folder
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Alistair
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddy Matthews (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:56 PM
Subject: RE: CSAY
Something that may be useful Alistair, would be to post a map of the Clyde area, so people who don't know the area can get an idea of the geography...
And just to go off topic for a moment, it would also be useful for the Aussie threads on the Murray paddlers etc.
Regards
Eddy
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I sent this a day or two ago and it hasn't appeared, I presume because the photo was too big, so here's one with the photo smaller
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Alistair
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----- Original Message -----
From: Alistair Deayton (alistair@deayton.freeserve.co.uk)
To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: CSAY
Well, proofs all finished now, back to CSAY.
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I'll start with a photo of the GSWR's famous flyer GLEN SANNOX at Brodick, showing their colour scheme of lavender grey hull and red black-topped funnel.
GLEN SANNOX was built in 1892 by J & G Thomson of Clydebank, later to become the famous yard of John Brown & Co, and was designed for the run from Ardrossan to Arran, calling at the piers of Brodick, Lamlash and Whiting Bay on Arran.
She was very hungry for coal and only ran in the peak summer season.
She was scrapped after the 1924 summer season so only had a couple of years under LMSR ownership
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Alistair
I have been very busy for the past week working on the proofs of my new "Directory of the World's Steamships" book, and have not had time to scan anything, have just posted a couple of images that were in my "My Pictures" folder
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Oh the Glen Sannox - My favourite paddler of all time!! She always looks so sleek and powerful, and one day I'll get round to modelling her!
Walter Snowdon managed to track down some plans for me from the Mitchell Library. They don't include hull sections, but he also managed to find those in an old magazine! How the hell he finds this stuff is beyond me, but he always seems to come up with the goods!
Anyway, it's on the list of "Things to do" - I just need more experience with modelling to do her justice.
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Great Idea!!
I have never really known a lot about the English paddlers, and will definately be keeping my eye on this thread.. very interested in them.
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Great to know you're interested in our paddler heritage James. Sorry to be a bit pedantic but Alistair's Clyde paddlers are most definitely SCOTTISH :wink:
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These are Scottish paddlers, we may show some English ones at another time
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Alistair
----- Original Message -----
From: paddlesteamerman1 (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: CSAY
Great Idea!!
I have never really known a lot about the English paddlers, and will definately be keeping my eye on this thread.. very interested in them.
Cheers,
James McDougall
(PS Sarah-Jane[General Discussion Larger Paddle Steamers Thread])
RAILWAY AND PADDLER ENTHUSIAST
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Sorry :oops:
I didn't click when the Clyde was mentioned.. and it is most definately Scottish.. Thanks for the correction!!
I really am very interested in the paddlers ( and I love the look of them - I have searched the internet for pictures and read the sites [ a couple of them get mention in one of my rather large British/Scottish Marine history book]).
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I think it's time for another Clyde steamer for use to savour.
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Here are a couple of shots of LORD OF THE ISLES. She was built in 1891 by D & W Henderson for the day return oute from Glasgow to Inveraray at the head of Loch Fyne for the Glasgow and Inveraray Steamboat Co Ltd., and replaced an earlier similar steamer of the same name
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She only ran in the summer months, and left Glasgow's Broomielaw at 7:20 a.m. each day and arrived at inveraray at 1:30 pm., sailing on the return journey an hour later, returning to Glasgow at about 8:15 p.m.
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In 1912 her owners were taken over by Turbine Steamers Ltd, which operated the turbine screw steamer KING EDWARD on the same route, although starting from Greenock rather then Glasgow, and LORD OF THE ISLES was taken off the Inveraray route and was employed on a round Bute cruise from Glasgow. She continued operating throughout the First World War, mainly sailing to Lochgoilhead because the boom across the firth at Dunoon, and was withdrawn at the end of 1928 at Port Glasgow.
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Alistair
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Hi PD's ......a bit quiet on the pages so ......as Alistair said....
mainly sailing to Lochgoilhead
Was this something to do all those years ago which would have been a little :hehe :ohno wippersnapper called Sandy now from ACS :?: :shhh as thats his NECK o' the woods... but how do we pronounce it :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
LOK-GOIL-head
lok...silent G...OIL-on ya forhead
lockie-yahead...with a silent petrochemical works :?:
Apart from that what does it mean :?: as page 483 of my Oxford Concise confirms that a GOIL does not exist :nose ....[but then again thats probably only for Australian GOIL's]..... :?: :oops: :beer..... Derek :music
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Lochgoilhead is the village at the head of Loch Goil and is pronoiunced as it is written
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Alistair
----- Original Message -----
From: derekwarner_decoy (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:53 AM
Subject: RE: CSAY
Hi PD's ......a bit quiet on the pages so ......as Alistair said....
mainly sailing to Lochgoilhead
Was this something to do all those years ago which would have been a little (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/hehe.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/ohno.gif) wippersnapper called Sandy now from ACS (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_question.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/shhhh.gif) as thats his NECK o' the woods... but how do we pronounce it (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_arrow.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_arrow.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_arrow.gif)
LOK-GOIL-head
lok...silent G...OIL-on ya forhead
lockie-yahead...with a silent petrochemical works (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_question.gif)
Apart from that what does it mean (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_question.gif) as page 483 of my Oxford Concise confirms that a GOIL does not exist (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/picknose.gif) ....[but then again thats probably only for Australian GOIL's]..... (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_question.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/beer2.gif)..... Derek (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/music_whistling.gif)
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Hi PD's - but Alistair :sorry , was only my Irish convict humour when postings on PD's were so quiet.................but anyway... I'll be up @ 0500 in the morrow :computer :angel - Derek
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Here's one of the workhorses on the Clyde fleet, BENMORE at the Broomielaw. The Brromielaw was the traditional berth on the River Clyde in the centre of Glasgow, which had been used for sailings to the Firth of Clyde since long before steam navigation, and was used until the berth moved to the south side of the river, known as Bridge Wharf, in 1929, following the opening of the King George V bridge across the river downstream of Central Station Railway Bridge.
BENMORE was built in 1876 by T B Seath of Rutherglen with single cylinder diagonal machinery by W King & Co for Captain Robert Campbell for the service from Glasgow and Greenock to Kilmun. In 1885 she was taken over by Captain William Buchanan, and moved to the Glasgow to Rothesay service in 1886. In the following year she was reboilered and ran with two funnels, but the following year was back to one funnel. In 1891 she was sold to Captain John Williamson, and remained on the Glasgow to Rothesay service, but was now based at Rothesay. From 1916 to 1920 she was chartered to the Caledonian Steam packet Co, whose steamers had all been taken over for was service, and were being reconditioned. She returned to the Glasgow to Rothesay service and was sold for breaking up in October 1923
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Alistair
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Hi all
I feel a irresistable urge to join in this thread.....
Here is something from an earlier time, but returning to "dark Loch Goil" - and with an Australian connection.
The vessel is BREADALBANE - built for the Loch Goil and Loch Long Steamboat Company in 1847. Regular service to Lochgoilhead had started on 1814 (only 2 years after COMET), the company was formed in 1825 and at the time of BREADALBANE's launch was thriving. The service (which carried mails) ran all year round (except when she was off for overhaul) and in the 1849/50 winter is recorded as departing Glsagow daily (not Sundays of course - this is Scotland!) at 08:30 for a number of piers and ferry calls en route to Lochgoilhead, returning the same aftrnoon. In summer, Arrochar at the head of Loch Long also featured in the timetable.
One of the reasons for the comany's prosperity was that it provided a link in the "best" route to Invereray - seat of the Duke of Argyll (head of Clan Campbell) and in those days a major force in politics - thus generating plenty of well-heeled traffic for Inveraray. From Lochgoilhead, passengers were conveyed 8 miles by coach through the beautiful Hell's Glen to St Catherine's on Loch Fyne and finished the journey in a tiny paddler named ARGYLL.
The alternative route was by the Castle Company's cargo boat - a leisurely journey which took all day.
The illustration comes from James Williamson's "Clyde Passenger Steamers" - she has the "Loch Goil funnel" - red base, two while bands separated by a black band and black top. The observant may notice that this is the same as that borne by "LORD OF THE ISLES" in Alistair's earlier post - the manager of the Loch Goil company also managed the Glasgow and Inveraray Steamboat Company when that was first established - later the two companies merged, suffered badly from competition from railway boats and turbines and eventually sold out to a combination of Turbine Steamers (which got the two remaining ships) and MacBraynes who appear to have a acquired the goodwill of the Lochgoilhead trade.
MacBraynes continued to operate a mail service till October 1946 (latterly with a small motor vessel) and when it closed it was generally reckoned to be the longest-operated service of its kind.
All three of the railway companies ran excursions to Lochgoilhead at times (thus depriving the Loch Goil company of the most lucrative traffic) - even the Ayr based steamer would make occasional visits. After World War One, however the daily excursion was left to the North British Railway (later LNER) from Craigendoran, usually with the 1899 WAVERLEY.
And this was why the current WAVERLEY was built - for the Lochgoilhead and Arrochar cruise - initially six days a week, but down to two by the middle 1950's. Lochgoihead pier closed in 1965 and from then till 1972 when Arrochar also closed, WAVERLEY continued to sail to the head of Loch Goil on both her outward and inward journeys.
My father owned a holiday cottage near Lochgoilhead from 1959 and the 4 visits each week by WAVERLEY (or JEANIE DEANS every second week 1961 - 1964) were highlights (we didn't often sail there as we needed the car). Loch Goil is incredibly beautiful and in those days was also very peaceful - an ideal place for sailing and hill walking - I was back there last summer and the village is surprisingly unchanged - all that was missing was the pier and the paddler.
As for BREADALBANE - in 1853 she was sold to Australia, replaced by a new vessel LOCH GOIL (Tom Mead in his Manly ferries book gives 1856 but I'll stick with the Scottish experts). Tom Mead also says she worked first at Melbourne, then Brisbane and started on the Manly ferry in December 1862, remaining there till scrapped in 1882.
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It wasn't mentioned by Fitchett, but was mentioned by Loney (with no photo).
PS Breadalbane entered the Port Phillip Bay trade in 1854, part of a fleet connecting Melbourne and Geelong (the colony's largest two cities, then and now). This is consistent with sale in Scotland in 1853. I don't know which dock it used in Melbourne, but in Sept.1854, Australia's first steam-worked railway was opened: from the city centre of Melbourne (Flinders St station) to Sandridge [Port Melbourne]. Loney hints that Breadalbane was withdrawn in 1855 or 56 (superseded by another vessel). It must have gone to Brisbane then, giving rise to the 1856 reference. In mid 1857, the Geelong - Melbourne railway was opened, to a temporary terminus at the Yarra mouth. The connection to Melbourne would be by ferry: either up the Yarra (circuitous and with sand or mud bars, so unlikely) or to Sandridge and then railway (reliable, but adding to cost). Within months, the line connected to the new government line to Williamstown, so the connection was probably by ferry to Sandridge, then train. In 1859, the line was connected through to the city centre (Batmans Hill / Spencer St station) with the opening of Saltwater [Maribyrnong] River bridge. Even so, bay shipping was able to compete with the railway for many more years. In June, there are major celebrations for the 150th anniversary of Geelong & Melbourne Railway Co.'s line. The line was sold to the government only a few years after opening.
I haven't a reference available to track Breadalbane in Brisbane, and the Sydney reference has already been cited.
Many places in Australia were named after towns and locations in Scotland. Breadalbane is a small hamlet west of Goulburn, on the main Sydney - Melbourne railway. It is famous because it is one of the few straight and fast sections in the whole ~640 km from Sydney to Albury; there are many stories of steam trains travelling at well above the authorised 115 km/h there. It was one of the few places where the overhyped XPT of the 1980s could reach its advertised 160 km/h maximum speed.
I am using my 1923 pregrouping rail atlas to understand these CSAY postings.
It has ferry routes run by North British, by Glasgow & South Western, by Caledonian and by NB & Cal. jointly. The three railways also carved up the territory along the shores.
* G&SW scored Ardrossan and Largs, and snuck into Cal. territory to reach Princes Pier (not quite as far as Gourock).
* Cal. got most of the south bank, continuing to Wemyss Bay. It also got quite a chunk of the north bank, and Balloch (for Loch Lomond).
* NB got most of the north bank, and followed Loch Gare on its route further north. It also got a circuitous route into Balloch.
I have traversed all of the surviving lines, and seen many of the piers. Most of my ferry riding has been further north, with CalMac (I have been to Kyle of Lochalsh, Skye, Mallaig, Fort William, bus alongside Caledonian Canal and Oban).
In Apr.-May 06 I rode from Wemyss Bay to Rothesay, and from Gourock to Helensburgh (but not on elegant Clyde paddlesteamers).
I can see a seed planted that I must reach Lochgoilhead by some means on my next tour of Scotland.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Hi Roderick
We really will have to try and organise a map of the Clyde.
To briefly summarise the railway piers
North British - Craigendoran (earlier Helensburgh)
Glasgow & South Western - Greenock Princes Pier
Fairlie
Ardrossan (Winton Pier)
Ayr (summer excursions only)
Caledonian - Gourock (earlier Greenock Customhouse Quay)
Wemyss Bay
Ardrossan (Montgomerie Pier)
(Largs station is some way from the pier and was not normally used for train connections)
The only joint operation was Caley / NBR on Loch Lomond.
The prime destination, served by all three railways was Rothesay via Dunoon (so the Caley ran trains, but not steamers on the North bank of the Clyde). Competition was intense and racing the norm. The main business trains left all three Glasgow termini at about 16:00 - and all three had steamer connections for Rothesay (and the Caley had another one via Wemyss Bay). All three steamers were due at Rothesay (and the intermediate piers) at about the same time ........ a fast boat was a successful boat - the Caley had the shortest route, so the Sou West and NBR boats had to be faster. It must have been great fun.
From Ardrossan both companies ran to Arran (to Brodick and then down the coast to Whiting Bay) - the Sou West with GLEN SANNOX and the Caley with the slower DUCHESS OF HAMILTON and later the faster turbine DUCHESS OF ARGYLL - again the two ships were scheduled with almost identical sailing times - the two Ardrossan piers are IIRC about 200 yards apart, and bumps in the harbour were not uncommon.
The Sou West and Caley both served Millport (Cumbrae) from Fairlie and Wemyss Bay respectively.
All three companies served the Holy Loch - this is the small loch just north of Dunoon where the main pier is Kilmun - and all three companies provided a connecting steamer off their 16:00 train from Glasgow.
Only the NBR served the Gare Loch - for many years this was LUCY ASHTON, which also provided a cross firth ferry service to Greenock.
All three railway companies also provided summer only excursion sailings as well as the all the year round ferry services - the NBR and Sou West (and occasionally the Caley) both ran to Lochgoilhead and Arrochar, the Caley and Sou West competed vigorously from the upper firth to Arran via the Kyles of Bute while the Sou West usually had Ayr to itself.
Many other cruises were offered, and evening cruises were popular.
There were also the private operators. The Loch Goil and Loch Fyne companies have been discussed up thread and Campbeltown had its own steamers. MacBraynes ran the mail service to Ardrishaig (Loch Fyne) with IONA and COLUMBA. Captain Buchanan's steamers ran all the way from Glasgow to Rothesay while John Williamson's steamers (including BENMORE above) provided a cargo/pasesnger service from Rothesay to Glasgow as his father (Captain Alex) had done before him. (Captain Alex had also ran his "Turkish fleet" - SULTAN, SULTANA and VICEROY in conjunction with the Glasgow and South Western before they founded their own fleet - which they did by buying out Captain Alex (senior) and employing his son Captain Alex (junior) as their new manager).
Captain John Williamson (who was Alex's younger brother) also became manager of the Turbine steamer syndicate whose "New fangled" turbines ran to Campbeltown and Inveraray from 1901 onwards. And eldest brother James was manager of the Caley.
Hope this makes it a bit clearer.
BTW if you use public transport to get to Lochgoilhead you'll have to get the bus - it connects with the train at Arrochar and Tarbet. Very scenic ride but not the same as going by sea.
Regards
David
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Let's see if this works
We seem to have most of the Clyde here - Ardrossan is further south on the mainland (to the east), and Ayr further south again, the island in the centre containing Lochranza is Arran and Campbeltown is south on the mainland to the west.
David
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I scanned the relevant page from British Railways pregrouping atlas and gazetteer, fifth ed. Ian Allen 1972 Isbn 07110 0320 3.
I removed as much extraneous detail as I could.
I enclose the small version (800 pixel height).
The larger is ~1580 pixel height.
If the small is unreadable, I will try to place the large in a file section, or add it here: the software will show it as a large file, available for downloading.
The inset of Kintyre fits at the southern tip of Kintyre Peninsula, to the left of the map. Mull of Kintyre is a bald hill at the tip, and was the source of a Paul McCartney 1970s song (I have a folksong-style version on cd, sung by a Russian group); it was also the spot which inspired the name of Hans Scotfriend's beautful model paddlesteamer (eastern Switzerland).
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Hi Roderick and all
Looks like we were both doing the same thing at the same time.
I couldn't find my own Ian Allan map last night, but I had forgotten (or never noticed) how inaccurate the steamer routing information is.
It looks as if the compiler has looked at the relevant timetable and assumed that any steamer advertised from, say, Gourock is automatically a Caley service. That is not the case as the railways were quite happy to advertise non-competitive servces by the private operators which collected passengers from the railway piers (and who had travelled by train to catch their ship).
Its a bit difficult to generalise as services changed over the years, and were much reduced after 1914, but some of the more obvious errors include
In 1923, no North British steamer went further than Rothesay. The NB routes to Arran and Inveraray did not and never did exist. In 1902 and from 1924 onwards they ran a single sailing through to Tighnabruaich. At the turn of the century, and from 1932 to 1937 by JEANIE DEANS an extensive range of cruises in the outer firth was offered. They also offered a Round Bute cruise from about 1900 to 1914.
The service to Inveraray shown as Caledonian Railway were actually provided by Williamson Buchanan, a merger of the two old family firms including Turbine Steamers.
The service to Lochranza and Campbeltown shown as Caledonian is actually that provided by the "Campbeltown Company" - the old established (1826) local firm/ There was also a turbine sailing which picked up at the various up-firth piers (Greenock, Dunoon, Wemyss Bay probably, Fairlie) before heading for Lochranza.
Post 1918, all Ardrossan Arran services were provided by the South Western, although calling at both railway piers in Ardrossan. The map reflects pre-war days in this instance - at times the Caley ran direct from Ardrossan to Whiting Bay.
Post war, Lochgoilhead and Arrochar were served by the NB only.
The map shows a Greenock Princes Pier - Craigendoran service - tbis was NB and not Sou West.
The Caley Wemyss Bay Millport steamer is shown as calling at Fairlie : their may have been one or two calls in the roster but it was not a normal feature of the route.
Post war, the Holy Loch (Kilmun) was served by Caley and NB only. Pre war their was a Caley boat running all day to Gourock, and a Sou West boat running all day to Greenock.
The number of steamers in service on the Clyde after 1919 was considerably lower than in 1914. War losses had not helped, but the economics of the time meant the end of many competitive services (such as the Holy Loch above) , much greater co-operation between the companies and the pruning of unrenumerative routes. The Caley fleet, for example was reduced from 8 to 5 ships. The impact on the travelling public of these service reductions was probably negligible, as all the piers (with one "freak" exception - Portincross) remained open, except that many journeys were now a bit slower.
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It's great to see that Alistairs thread on the Clyde paddlers is starting to gain momentum - Thanks to eveyone who has contributed!
The Clyde paddlers ended up in almost every corner of the globe over the years, so there is a wealth of history to dig into, and members from almost every country should be able to relate to these boats in one way or another.
Keep up the great work guys - I await each post with baited breath....
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Hi PD's ..... & :nono how could I forget,,,,,, or forgot...... :bow PS Decoy was built :hammer by Hendersons.......... :hehe :music :great - Derek
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David's devotion is noted: consecutive posts at 3.30 and 8.30, but apparently not quite an all-night session.
There are many interlocking issues here.
I am surprised that the Caley didn't win the fight for Rothesay traffic hands down: it had the best terminal, and the shortest crossing (important for speed, and for stomachs when the weather cut rough). An express train with a direct connection should have thrashed the opposition.
The station is still magnificent today: a superb example of Victorian engineering & architecture. Particularly important is the lengthy covered walkway from the station concourse to the ferry gates. Alistair stated that the weather is generally good, but the Caley directors thought otherwise. The walkway is still maintained well. I thought that I had photographed it, but I hadn't. Hence, today's photo shows a StrathClyde train at the terminus which is today's sole access to Rothesay (Isle of Bute). I grabbed it just after phoning Alistair at his shop to announce that I wouldn't be getting to Paisley that morning: I was connecting at the junction to Gourock to connect with one of the very few private ferries for the day to Helensburgh via somewhere. In contrast, Gourock station today is the equivalent of a bus stop, built in the remains of a formerly-grand terminus.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
'I belong to Glasgow...'
Actually, I don't: my great great grandfather was a Gillespie from a croft outside Inverness, which I believe makes me a Macpherson. My mother headed to visit the ancestral site 10 years ago, and something went wrong with the group tour that day and she didn't get there. Now she is too frail to make the journey again.
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It isn't hard to see why locals love this waterway, even after paddlesteamers have been withdrawn.
On Wed.31.5.06 I started at Glasgow Central around 6.00 to Wemyss Bay, arriving at 6.59.
There I caught CalMac MV Juno at 7.15.
The weather was sunny; the water was calm.
We crossed MV Bute.
The return crossing arrived at Wemyss Bay at 8.35; I connected to an 8.50 train (photo in my previous post).
I changed at Port Glasgow, 9.11-43, and arrived at Gourock at 9.57. The station hadn't been scrapped totally (as I hinted in the earlier post): the ornate curving verandah canopies remained.
I boarded MV Rover, run by Clyde Marine, for the 10.05 crossing via Kilcreggan to Helensburgh. This was also a sunny and pleasant crossing.
CalMac MV Saturn was seen.
From Helensburgh I connected into an 11.10 to Glasgow Central, then to a 12.00 to Edinburgh, and on to York and Harrogate for the evening.
Today I enclose a shot taken through the window of the covered walkway at Wemyss Bay. I chose this so that the modern boat was small in the view: with minimum photoshop skill you can rub it out, and replace it with your favourite Clyde paddlesteamer.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
'Speed bonny boat, like a bird on the foot, over the sea to Bute...'
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I checked my notes and photos from my earlier trip to Wemyss Bay (1995-96). On that occasion, I had only a couple of minutes there, and photographed only the train at the curved platform.
I enclose two photos from May 06. Neither is a paddlesteamer, but these are the successors on two famous routes.
The first shows MV Bute viewed from MV Juno, with Rothesay in the background.
The second shows MV Rover leaving Helensburgh; I guess that the civilisation in the distance is Gourock.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria
'The far Coolins have put a spell on me...'
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There are many interlocking issues here.
I am surprised that the Caley didn't win the fight for Rothesay traffic hands down: it had the best terminal, and the shortest crossing (important for speed, and for stomachs when the weather cut rough). An express train with a direct connection should have thrashed the opposition.
Hi again, Roderick and all.
This discussion could run and run...
My family (1950's and 1960's) never went to Rothesay or anywhere else on the Coast via Wemyss Bay. We went via Gourock or preferrably Craigendoran or all the way from Glasgow - that way you got a longer sail and we all loved being afloat. And if timed right, and it usually was, we got to sail in a paddler or turbine rather than a diesel car ferry. Coming back, however with tired and fracfious children, he was inclined to use Wemyss Bay as the fastest means of getting the family home.
It helped that the return fare from Glasgow to most resorts did not depend on the route - it cost the same via Wemyss Bay or Craigendoran even though one was thiry minute sail and the other closer to two hours. (For completeness this did not apply to the all-the-way sailing on QUEEN MARY II from Glasgow, but you could get "steamer out - train home" returns at a discount)
The passenger's starting point was also significant. The three railways all had their own Glasgow stations (North Britsh at Queen Street, Caledonian at Central and Glasgow & South Western at the now closed St Enoch) - if you worked near Queen Street you would not necessarily save much time by walking to Central when their was an NBR train next door, even though the journey took longer. And North bank residents in locations such as Clydebank and Dumbarton had no real choice but to use Craigendoran.
In earlier times the "status" of Gourock also had a bearing on the matter. I'll say more on this in a later post but from 1919 on till 1951 (the same general pattern was provided prior to 1914 as well, but I have fewer details) there were always two paddlers on the "basic" ferry rosters - it might have made obvious sense to have one of these shuttling back and forawrds from Gourock to Dunoon and the other from Wemyss Bay to Rothesay, like the car ferries have done since their introduction. In practise, however, each would make two or three Rothesay - Dunoon - Gourock trips, and two or three Rothesay - Wemyss Bay trips. It was an absolutely traditional service pattern, made sure that "head office" in Gourock saw all the fleet and meant that both Rothesay and especially Dunoon had a service far less frequent than they would have liked - it was almost as frequent a service from Dunoon to Rothesay as it was from Dunoon to Glasgow.
[These were not the only through boats of course, the excursion steamers to such destinations as Arran, Inveraray and Campbeltown, also sailed from Gourock to Rothesay, sometimes via Wemyss Bay for a train connection, while the Craigendoran vessels also called at Gourock when their services were integrated with the Caley steamers in 1950, shortly after railway nationalization]
In case anybody is wondering where the paddlers bave gone from this post, the two vessels involved on these duties in 1949 were CALEDONIA and JUPITER - illustrated from commercial postcards courtesy of friendly ebay vendors as I have no scanner and highly unlikely to be copyright.
Regards
David
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This post is a follow up to an earlier one of mine, when I mentioned express steamers and racing.
One of the relatively unusual aspects of the Clyde was the business traffic, that lasted for a surprisingly long time.
From early days (as far back as the mid nineteenth century at least) almost any businessman in Glasgow who could afford it would rent a house on the Coast for the summer, and decamp there for up to six months with wife, children and quite possibly servants.
While the family enjoyed their holiday, Father still had to work. Depending on his circumstances he had two choices.
He went up to Glasgow on Monday morning (no Sunday boats, of coursd) and returned on Saturday afternoon or evening (still a six day week, then). Monday mornings saw enhanced early morning services - Williamson says the normal commuter runs in the morning to the three up-firth piers (Gourock, Greenock Princes Pier and Craigendoran) involved 8 arrivals, but their were 11 on Mondays. The last of these "death runs" was from Brodick in Arran - it was allocated to WAVERLEY in (I think) 1973, her last season before preservation - it must have been a total waste of money as she had to run empty to Brodick, then empty again from Ardrossan back to Gourock, and all for the benefit of a handful of passengers.
Or Father commuted on a daily basis. In this case he was probably a fairly senior man on a salary (or owned the company) - as he had to leave work far earlier than the "staff" - as we shall see soon.
What the three railways had here (North British fron Craigendoran, Caledonian from Gourock and Wemyss Bay and Glasgow and South Western from Greenock Princes Pier (and to a lesser extent the minor railheads as well)) was a captive but well heeled and demanding traffic - first class season ticket holders expect to be spoiled with the best possible service - and are quick to voice their discontent with letters of complaint to management and the local press if their expectations are not met.
So there were express services in the morning - but the ones which are really a part of the steamer lore are the ones back in the evening. Here, as the "winning post" was a pier, it was always possible to identify the winner and some of the races are legendary.
The traditional departure time for the evening express service was 16:00 (or as I have to say in this post, 4pm). This dates back to the 1850's at least when the various RUBY's and ROThESAY CASTLEs and the manic Captain Price indulged in what was probably the most vicious and irresponsible racing of all (see Andrew McQueen - "Echoes of Old Clyde Paddle Wheels"- a fascinating and atmospheric book)
And 4pm remained the departure time from Glasgow for the express services after the railways were fully developed - as I said above, Father as commuter had to be a senior man - who else could leave work in Victorian times before 4pm?
I hope it will interest some to see what was on offer to Father in those days. The oldest timetable I possess is the 1922 summer edition of Bradshaw (for US readers, our equvalent of the "Official Guide") [and if anybody on here can send me scans or photo copies of any pre world war 1 clyde steamer timetables he will have my undying gratitude].
This is what was on offer (I am not going to list the intermediate calls)
NORTH BRITISH.
The boat train left Queen Street at 16:00 and arrived Craigendoran at 1638. Departure times are not given and I suspect that the boats left as soon as passengers were aboard.
WAVERLEY was the Rothesay steamer - she was due to arrive Rothesay at 18:00
In addition DANDIE DINMONT connected for Kilmun in the Holy Loch, and LUCY ASHTON for Clynder in the Gare Loch.
GLASGOW and SOUTH WESTERN
The boat train left St Enoch at 16:03 - again no departure times are given from Greenock (Princes Pier)
MERCURY was the Rothesay steamer - she was due in at 18:05. She made the same calls as WAVERLEY and one can be quite sure that every attempt would be made to get to Rothesay first - WAVERLEY and MERCURY had been two real flyers as built, but war service hadn't helped either of them.
In addition, CALEDONIA left for Kilmun in the Holy Loch in direct competition with DANDIE DINMONT.
CALEDONIAN
Due to war losses and co-operation with the Sou West, their was no longer an equivalent (and totally unnecessary) service from Gourock at this time.
What the Caley did offer was 16:30 from Glasgow Central to Wemyss Bay. This arrived at 17:24 - again no departure time.
The Rothesay steamer was one of the paddlers DUCHESS OF FIFE or DUCHESS OF ROTHESAY - they changed duties each week, I believe. (this was a part of the "basic" roster discussed in the previous post).
She was due into Rothesay at 18:00.
In addition, MARCHIONESS OF BREADALBANE sailed for Largs and Millport.
So we have three express steamers all due at Rothesay between 18:00 and 18:05 - no problem there as Rothesay had three berths - but all three vessels had to call at Craigmore 5 minutes before, and there is only one berth there - must have been fun to watch.
The other thing has just occurred to me - most of those boats must have been almost empty. The combined capacity of the three NBR steamers, for example, was in the region of 4000 passengers - capacity of the boat train 1000 or less.
Pictures attached with the same caveats as previous post. The WAVERLEY and MERCURY postcards are pre war - WAVERLEY appears to be going flat out - the one of DUCHESS OF ROTHESAY is slightly unusual - she has the "tartan lum" - the buff, red and black funnel scheme introduced by the LMS after railway amalgamation, universally hated as a nasty compromise and abandoned in 1925 - and she appears to be carrying winter boarding - protection for saloon windows carried in bad weather conditions.
Regards
David
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Its been a couple of weeks since I posted a Clyde steamer photo and history
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This is QUEEN EMPRESS built fore the Williamson fleet in 1912 by Murdoch and Murray of Port Glasgow. She was built for all-the-way sailings from Glasgow to the Clyde Coast resorts, and was an improved DUCHESS OF FIFE with the main deck plated in right up to the bow. She had compound diagonal engines by Rankin and Blackmore of Greenock, which are similar, although larger than, those installed in MAID OF THE LOCH on Loch Lomond 41 year later.
After only a couple of seasons service the First World War intervened, She was used as a troopship and then as a minesweeper and the Admiralty held onto her after the war, when she went to Archangel to support the White Russian forces there. She did not return to the Clyde until 1920.
In the thirties she also offered long day excursions from Dunoon and Helensburgh, e.g. to Girvan and a cruise round Ailsa Craig, to Campbeltown or to Inveraray.
In October 1935, her owners were taken over by the London Midland and Scottish Railway and she was used on services in the Firth, gaining Caledonian Steam Packet colours in 1938. In 1939 she was on the Wemyss Bay and Rothesay to Millport service, and served her country again as a minespeeper in the 1939-1945 war. After this she was not reconditioned for civilian service and was broken up in 1946
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Alistair
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