Paddleducks
Other Marine Models => Live steam => Topic started by: derekwarner_decoy on January 29, 2007, 08:52:04 PM
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Hi PD's - was not sure how much time Sandy had [being so busy :crash :hammer :beer that is] I posted a note off line :computer , but couldn't resist the answer for all :hehe
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek L Warner Pty Ltd
To: ACS Engineering
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: January 2007 Various
Hi Sandy - our compliments of the season to Kate & yourself
1) - checked your WEBsite & the order book full again = GREAT
2) - the newer smaller boiler packages are impressive - ACS does have the widest range of from 0.22 L volume to 0.6L volume boilers in both Vertical & Horizontal on the market! - I like the new brass collar locking the chimney back to the boiler - visually looks smart - adds good contrast.... the black & the brass I mean
From your Customers photographs...... :lol:
3) - D_Gallagher_8 = no way he can get the burner out of the boiler for ignition - also the GAZ tank does not have the 12" of unconstricted/restrained copper tube
4) - D_Gallagher_6 = could a valve selection here convert the oil separator/condser to a pressure vessel? :boom :arrow:
I see, Dave also has a knurled nut connection to the exhaust steam tube into the funnel, but he also appears to have four [say 10 BA cheese head screws] securing or locking the chimney to the boiler
I have noted that certain FROG manufacturers & one London based manufacture have converted their GAZ tanks from black to Gray/Grey to fall in line with same colour GAZ tanks from the GAZ shop for your average camping or BBQ GAZ bottles - I certainly won't be respraying my tanks from black to Gray/Grey
Please.... these points or questions are not a criticisms, just need to know how he [D_Gallagher] lights the bloody boiler?????????????????????
I have posted a note to PS's [Red_Hamish & Andrew] from the Edinburough Model Boat Club... as in their WEBsite...Gallery 13 displays' a beautifully constructed Victorian steam launch & the constructor clearly does not remove the GAZ burner prior to boiler ignition
My guess is :-
1) remove the chimney
2) pre soak a 3 mm wide X 1 mm thick plank in plastic glass containing 20 mm of kerosene
3) insert the pre lighted plank GENTLY to the internal base of the boiler & open the GAZ valve
4) reinstall the chimney & wait :angel
5) the heat from GAZ combustion will kill any wooden residue & make 20 seconds of smoke
regards Derek
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:D :D :D :computer :great :angel
Hi PD's,
Happy (late) New Year to all.
Up to my neck in work again...still, must not complain....it keeps the bills paid.....not getting much modelling done though!!!!
Derek made some interesting observations and asked some quite interesting questions so I telephoned Dave Gallagher to find out the answers, since I did not have the info....
1. The gas pipe does not need to be 12" long, even on your model Derek....what most clubs/ associations specify is that the gas pipe be made of copper or brass with silver soldered connections. In Daves case, and In the Edinburgh case, both builders are using electronic gas control systems, which have a servo controlled (metal) gas valve in the line...as long as the pipework is copper and silver soldered then this is just fine.
The only specifications of actual lengths of copper tube, come from bodies such as the MPBA (model power boat Association) whos rules, unlike most, permit the use of flexible (rubber) tubing to permit ease of installation etc....here the rules are that for LOW POWERED BURNERS ( ceramic types) the first 102mm of pipe, from the burner end, MUST be of copper and the remainder can be of Approved gas grade hose that meets B.S. 3212 and/or 737/17
For high heat burners (blowtorch style) the first 153mm MUST be copper, with the same type of hose making up the remainder.
ONLY use once, cripmp type hose clips shall be used...jubilee clips are not acceptable.
2. You are quite correct in your assumption that the valve arrangement on Dave's condenser can present the problem of pressurising the condenser, however, his has been specially made...note the slightly domed top.
3. HOW DOES HE LIGHT THE BL***Y boiler? :wink: :wink: :twisted: :?:
Dave has a special scale crew member to perform this task....and I wan't one....READ ON....
Dave’s boiler assistant is a California Fire worm of the order ‘Coleoptera: Phangodidae', species ‘n.mexicasae’.
These strange insects were first discovered in the late 1960s in an area of New Mexico known as the 'Pajarito Plateau', specifically in the ‘Jornada del Muerto Valley’
(If you don’t know where this is, or what it was, then look it up, and all that follows will become more clear), however, it was not until the early 1990’s that their more nasty ability became known.
During this time, many oil rig fires in Texas and some forest fires in Arizona and California, particularly those in areas where the tree line merged with the marshy/bogy areas around rivers and lakes, appeared to have no plausible cause, but just appeared to start spontaneously. At first, these fires were attributed to careless visitors, or acts of vandalism; however, subsequent research and extensive testing proved that these insects were in fact the cause.
They are a type of Gloworm, but unlike any other… …..like most other gloworms, they can produce light by means of chemical reaction…that is…they produce 'Luciferin’ (a substrate) ‘Luciferase’ (an enzyme) and energy molecules ATP (adenosine triphosphate) which, when exposed to Oxygen, all combine to produce a bright chemical glow…usually Green or Blue, but sometimes also Red.
Species ‘n.mexicasae’…had one other trick though, a mutation, allegedly, born of much higher powers …..if the ‘Luciferase’ (enzyme) of this species was exposed to Methane (marsh gas), or to practically all of the gases associated with the petrochemical industry, which include Naphthalene, Propane, Butane etc. the enzyme actually heated up very rapidly and would ignite the gas….surprisingly, the insects themselves appeared to be immune to the searing heat and just crawled away to a more shady place, away from the main heat and waited until the fire went out…..it is believed that this ability is a testimony to their place of origin, and subsequent initial discovery.
These insects are now spreading throughout the South Western United States and, apart from staring the odd forest fire here and there, are quite cute little critters and apparently make quite good pets…easy to catch and keep, with very little food requirements…just a couple of small pieces of cacti a couple of times a week…they can easily be kept in a small aquarium or large glass jar, and, if several are kept together, they will light up a room at night with a low, soft green-blue light.
Dave makes use of their ability to actually create fire…by keeping one in the boiler flue, where he feeds it twice a week as above…. when he wants to go sailing, he just turns on the gas valve, waits a few seconds, and the burner ignites…the fire worm then scurries away and lodges itself in the space between the burner shroud and the outer end of the flu, where it feels quite safe and waits for the burner to be put out.
Sadly, American Fisheries and Wildlife will not allow these insects to be exported…just as well really…. so for the less fortunate amongst us, including me and Derek, we will just have to keep using standard matches to light our boilers.
I would hazard a guess that the Edinburgh models owner, which is fitted with what looks to be a 'Cheddar Models' Pintail horizontal outfit...just trusts to luck and lights his from the top of the funnel, however, he may have a piezo ignition unit fitted, also from 'Cheddar Models', although I believe they stopped supplying these in later years.
Ok....I am happy you like the new items on the ACS web-site....it's been difficult to keep the development work on some sort of track, albeit way off the original schedule...with so much other work to fit in to the days....we keep plodding away though.
I have not forgotten the STEAM series...just not had much time to write up very much....it will get done...PROMISE.
OK all, best regards and keep happy. :D :D :angel :beer :clap2 :vacat
Sandy.
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:oops :hammer :hammer
Me again....forgot one......Derek, Daves funnel is held in place by 4 x 8BA screws...this was done to help stabilise the superheater coil, which is fitted into the uptake and is locked into 2 slots in the base of the funnel...he prefered to have the funnel fixed to prevent uneccessary movement of this coil.
Best regards.
Sandy. :D :D
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Hi PD's & thanks for your comments Sandy....however I think :darn & :nono Edinburgh
Lets go back to :computer Gallery 13 from the Edinburgh site
Photograph b71_t,pg clearly shows
1) live steam on the gauge as 20 PSI
2) a condensing surface on the GAZ tank [so it is real]
3) approx 3/8" long of 1/8" OD copper tube from behind the burner orifice holder .....to a 1/8" OD male stud coupling which is screwed :hammer :hammer into the body of the GAZ regulating valve
So thinking....:rant ...if [Edinburgh, Scotland & England] are all the same..........all of this contravenes your Rules & Regs.... or is (Lochgilphead, Argile) some new principality :hehe
Next question Sandy.....if the condenser/de-oiler as dispalyed by D_Gallagher has the potential to become a pressure vessel, should Dave not have it tested & certified in accordance with the respective American Laws? - :beer - Derek
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:D :D :D :computer :coffee
Hi Pd's,
Derek asks,
Edinburgh
Lets go back to Gallery 13 from the Edinburgh site
Photograph b71_t,pg clearly shows
1) live steam on the gauge as 20 PSI
2) a condensing surface on the GAZ tank [so it is real]
3) approx 3/8" long of 1/8" OD copper tube from behind the burner orifice holder .....to a 1/8" OD male stud coupling which is screwed into the body of the GAZ regulating valve
So thinking.... ...if [Edinburgh, Scotland & England] are all the same..........all of this contravenes your Rules & Regs.... or is (Lochgilphead, Argile) some new principality
Next question Sandy.....if the condenser/de-oiler as dispalyed by D_Gallagher has the potential to become a pressure vessel, should Dave not have it tested & certified in accordance with the respective American Laws?
:thinking :shoot ....Sorry Derek, but I can see nothing in the Edinburgh installation which contravenes any rule....which rule are you thinking of?
My only concern with this superb model is that the owner is running a huge risk if he indeed light his boiler from the top of the funnel...which I suspect is the case.....the problem, as I see it, is that the burner is of the type which has secondary air inlets (around the burner shroud, where it is fitted to the flue)....LPG gas, being heavier than air, can, and will, leak from these and in to the bowels of the model, before it has got anywhere near the funnel top....the resulting whoomp! as the gas ignites will also ignite any that is in the bilge......result...model on fire (which would be a crying shame, with such a lovely model).....with an enclosed boiler/control set-upp, as on this model...by the time it was realised there was a fire, it would possibly be to late to either get at things to put it out,,,worse still it would be difficult with the burning heat to remove the gas tank easily......NOW THERE IS A REAL RISK.
You may perhaps feel I am being over dramatic, or just passing my own opinion...believe me I am not....I have had 2 customers just recently who telephoned to say that this had happened to them and wanted to know why......when asked how they lit the burner.....YOU GUESSED IT...from the top of the funnel....when I explained the above to them, they remembered the recommendation I give in my instruction sheets,...i.e remove the burner for lighting....and the reason for this now became obvious to them......they both now remove the burner to light it and have had no more trouble of this sort.
Incidentally...the same goes for RE-FILLABLE GAS TANKS....allways remove it from the model to fill it with gas.
To answer Derek's second question: -
For the benefit of those of you who may not have seen the installation in question, Dave Gallaghers steam launch (customers models gallery on my web site)...I re-produce a copy here: -
(http://)
To explain the problem...and the reason for Derek's question....take a look at the condenser/oil separator (bottom centre) where you will see 2 wheel valves on the top, with a third connection entering on the right hand vertical side.
The side connection is the exhaust inlet from the engine.
The top right wheel valve is the clean steam exit to atmosphere (via the funnel side entry). This Valve NORMALLY OPEN.
the Left wheel valve is the condensate drain control. This Valve NORMALLY CLOSED.
OK...the operating procedure to drain the condenser would be: -
CLOSE the wheel valve for the steam to the funnel.
OPEN the wheel valve for the drain.
Run the engine slowly...this will pump the waste condensate out by exhaust pressure.
Stop engine.
OPEN the valve for steam exhaust to funnel.
CLOSE the valve for the drain.
NO problem you say!!!.....Dereks' question ......WHAT if you CLOSE THE DRAIN and FORGET to re-open the steam outlet to the funnel......
when you start the engine for the next run...the condenser will pressurise...up to engine exhaust steam pressure...SLIGHTLY BELOW BOILER PRESSURE.....Generally, condenser/oil traps are not designed as pressure vessels......THIS IS THE PROBLEM.....if the condenser blew out, and there were bystanders...there could be hell to pay.
An installation of this type would be severely frowned upon by most club inspectors here in the UK, and would probably result in you not obtaining a steam test certificate...or would revoke an existing one..UNLESS you could produce a VALID PRESSURE test certificate covering the condenser as a pressure vessel (just as for the boiler).
The easiest way round this problem is to make the connection from the engine exhaust - inlet of the condenser...from a short piece of silicone tube, this would just expand and release (come off) long before the pressure got to anything near condenser damaging level.
If silicone tube is not to your liking...and a lot of guy's don't like it...then a suitable safety valve fitted in the condenser (say 5-10psi max) would be a suitable alternative.
I am not sure exactly what rules apply in California (Dave Gallaghers home state) with regard to this, it may well be there are none....each state has it's own rules and regulations in the USA, however, I am sure Dave will have checked this all out and taken the appropriate steps to ensure his installation was acceptable for use in a public place....THE USA litigation brigade being much worse than ours...WELL JUST!!!!
Ok Guys, I hope this clarifies things a little.
Best Regards.
Sandy. :angel :computer :beer :sunglasses
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CLOSE the wheel valve for the steam to the funnel.
OPEN the wheel valve for the drain.
Run the engine slowly...this will pump the waste condensate out by exhaust pressure.
Stop engine.
OPEN the valve for steam exhaust to funnel.
CLOSE the valve for the drain.
Hi PD's - this sounds like an old salty Chief Engineer giving orders to an equally old encrusted Engine Room Operative [dw the :angel perhaps :?: ], but rules are rules...& it is a :nono to break the rules
Thanks Sandy for your explanation - these understandings are very important for any person considering STEAM in model engineering, as it is not all :party & a few :beer, it is great fun but expect a few :sob along the way - Derek :hehe :music
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I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but does anyone do a piezzo ignition system suitable for model boilers? I was just thinking it would eliminate the potential problems with lighting a boiler down the funnel.... It could be something worth considering to add to your line of products Sandy?
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Hi Eddy
I've just posted a reply to the pizzo question in the Pizzo ignition thread.
Malcolm