Paddleducks
Large Paddler Builds => General discussion (Large) => Topic started by: anth on November 13, 2006, 08:47:34 PM
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Hi All,
I am making this thread open for us to discuss what we are doing with our larger paddle boats....eg general discussion it will make it easier for us to support each other and keep up to date with what we are doing.
when there is a question on techniques and construction methods that needs to be asked and can't be answered here then I feel we post under the appropriate heading and put it towards the wider community.
It is clear we have a common intrest in building or modeling and on the scale we are attempting are by no means full size but in the same token many question could be answered here and not choking up other threads.
so ask here first....... :beer
cheers anthony
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I will start the ball rolling :D here is a picture of the water tube boiler I will be using this has been inspected and passed at a working pressure of 100 psi .
As I was saying to sean this boiler is in another set which will be dismantled and re fabriacted to suit the paddler's needs.
I wouldn't say we are full size,I class it as a freelance 1/4 size model :wink:
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This is a great idea :bravo I, though am still in the designing stages :thinking , and as Sean said nothing happens ASAP it happens ASAIC (as soon as it can) :rant . I am still having trouble :hmph finding a good hull, the Storer river boat I found looks good but the :boom owners want mid $20k for it, and I really dont have that lying around!! Does anyone know of anywhere good that I could try and look for a hull (About 6-8m long)?? I have come to a complete dead end now! :rant :ohno :thinking :shoot :crash
Anth, do you have any pictures of your actual boat? I would be really interested :angel in seeing them. I have seen Sean's and Michael's and both look fantastic!!
I am going to do a hand drawn design :D (it wont be the final thing, but just a squiz at what I am aiming to get, which is basically a MUCH smaller version of the PV Hebe or along the lines) of the Sarah-Jane and scan it and pop it on the site, sooner or later, because I cant get the paint program to work for me :rant :music
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I haven't started construction yet as I am still trying to work along the lines of it trailered.
I was saying to sean I made a cardboard model of the design I was working on but wasn't too happy with the out come!
So I am still thinking.
The problem you will have is you need to source a boat hull close to where you live,so I suggest you start looking local.
35 feet is a big boat to start with!
the most important thing is budget how much you can honestly afford to build your project! do it in stages to spread the cost.......
I have been playing around with the idea for a few years know and I still chop and change.
:D
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Thanks! My budget is not very big (usual for first boat builders especially a teenager) and that I want a boat that I can overnight on. So it might take a while to do. I live around Ararat :( which is a stupid little town that wouldnt know what a boat is if it was hit with one!!! But I will start looking around Ballarat and Horsham! Even if I looked around Mannum, Morgan, Waikerie would be okay, because we own a house in Morgan with a large double ended shed that would be perfect for construction of a trailerble boat!
Thanks for the advice!!
Cheers
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check under row boats on ebay there is a lovely little not so little row boat wooden hull clinker style about 14 feet would convert into a small paddler with out too much trouble $800
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Thanks Anth, I will check it out right away!!!
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I will post photos which I have of boats under construction, or of small paddle vessels. Some of these will be small portions of photos which I have posted to other parts of Paddleducks already.
Enclosed is SWPV Rusty, normally kept on a trailer at a private slipway at Colignan (upriver of Mildura, the limit of reliable navigation, at the head of the pool of lock 11). I had watched it arriving that morning, but had not watched the launching. The full-length canopy is light canvas over a metal frame. IIRC the engine is diesel, amidships; there must be chain drive.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Roderick - Do you know the specs of SWPV Rusty? And what is was made out of? Paddle wheels? Because it looks like the type I want, only a sidewheeler.
Diesel admidships, chain drive to the wheel, if I had a sidewheeler would I still put the Diesel/Steam in the middle or would it be a little towards the bow?
:beer
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james rusty is a steel hull,it is 17 feet in length,beam of 6 feet with a 4 foot diameter paddle.
cheers anthony
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Its more of one of those chitty chitty bang bang engines! It has a belt drive form the engine to the stern then connects to a shaft with a chain that runs the width of the wheel( so it goes under water).
Owned by Robert Mansell: PV Mosquito Colignan
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Thanks Anth!!
I am going to start with a diesel in the SJ and then hopefully advance to steam.. more info with the newly bought hull in my thread!!! The paddles should be about 10'' wide (going by the rule of thumb thing in the paddle wheel thread) and will be a simple spiderweb design!!
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SBAA exists to support owners/builders of steam launches, and takes in putt putts too. It is Sydney based. I can't find any paddleboats on the site, but there must be some.
www.steamboat.com.au
Quite apart from extra technical help which may be available, the group organises rallies (as most of the vessels are trailable). I was going to attend one at Picnic Point (Murray River, above Barmah), but the event was cancelled.
There will come a time when the Mornington Peninsula chapter will host a rally on Kananook Creek (IIRC navigable for 2 km).
Other waterways in the area which could be useful:
Lake Bryan
Patterson River
Tooradin inlet
Is there a lake at Melbourne Steam Club's Wantirna site? Certainly, having a PS there on a trailer would be an appropriate move.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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"Lake Bryan"
Is that my lake Roderick! I doubt three paddlers on the lake will be easily accomodated...it's not that big! However if you all wanted an event (or photo op) it could work I suppose.
Dad's building a jetty over summer when the water is down. My grandparents use the water to water their extensive gardens and as such it goes down to almost empty....perfect time to knock up a jetty for Grebe!
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I am posting these two here, as they have design hints for current projects, particularly RB/MV/PV/PS SJ.
PV Hebe was built as an MV and converted, and the conversion sits happily with the vintage hull. Long term, once James has his hull caulked and floating, I am sure that paddle propulsion would sit happily on it, without cutting into the sides or doing anything to change the existing classic lines: the drive shaft can sit above the bulwarks.
PS Billy Tea was rushed to completion to be launched at Yarrawonga to cruise to Nyah to join the Randell-Cadell fleet. It cruised quite happily without sponsons, and I see no need to add any to SJ. Sponsons would tempt people to stand to one side and upset the stability; lack of sponsons will force them to keep in the safe zone.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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I was thinking just that Rod, to get the hull floating and make it an MV and then later on putting the paddles on and seeing how they sit. The Sponson decks are a no (I think) because people standing on them would upset the balance of the boat, and the Billy Tea looks fine as is, so if I want I can put on balsa sponsons and see how they look after the paddles are on, and if they look ok, well we just have to wait and see. The hull is priority at the minute. I believe that paddles will be ok on the SJ, and I would have the motor at bilge level and connect the motor to the drive shaft via a chain.
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Here is a readily-accessible photo of two small vessels, helpful for designing the new crop.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Ahhh, little Gnatty, I love that boat!!!
I really want the SJ to become a cross between both, but nicer!! Hopefully!!
The August Lady looks great I think!!
I started work on the SJ today! :news
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This photo shows August Lady with three other steam launches at 2004 Junction Rally. The canopy roof does seem to be a common design feature: stylish but light. One of the hulls resembles James's SJ.
I mentioned in a different post joining the Australian steam-launch club. There must be people in it who have done the calculations for weight distribution for boats of this size, mainly without paddles, but possible some with paddles. Vertical boilers seem to be quite common. They take up less floor space, but do raise the centre of gravity.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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I got a reply back from Steam Boat Association of Australia today.
The secretary is unaware of any member running a paddlesteamer in this 4-5 m class.
He knows of perhaps six in UK.
Perhaps there are Australian ones, but the owners haven't joined SBAA?
Elsewhere in Paddleducks are photos and a website reference for one in Switzerland.
So people had better stop saying nasty things about the aesthetics of PS Minimus, and concentrate on the physics. That owner may be one of only two in Australia capable of offering technical advice. The other is Peter from PV Gnatty.
The subject of stability seems to have moved to the paddlewheel thread, so I will make stability comments there.
Meanwhile, another Aussie minimalist, which makes Grebe, SJ and Bunyip seem large
The boat isn't called Grebelet, but I haven't changed the file name since making the scan for Sean.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Peter McCleod made a 15" paddler powered by Steam. PS Elizabeth...renamed to Babbler by another owner and turned electric.
I got these details from Plowmans book...posed two issues one said it was the smallest boat on the Murray yet later Gnatty is listed as 14" making it smaller. Peter McCleods boats were then listed as his 2nd and 4th paddlers built...two as the 2nd and two as the 4th...confused me in which order his boats were built. A new edition to the book will fix these gaps though and maybe there will be a few more small boats added (Grebe, Sarah Jane Kananook!)
Maybe Michael could talk to Peter and find out the difficulties of the smaller paddle steamer! So that's another contact to contact.
Gnatty took two weekends to build or something...that's efficient...if I lived in SA I'd send Grebe there to be finished!
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you can see in the shot of Billy Tea why luke has moved the boiler forward a little heavy in the stern
No matter how much planning and calculating. our boats will always be altered later
Aussie paddlers seem to develope as time goes by and the needs of the boat changes.
We must not forget that many barges were converted to paddlers ......with the addition of engines paddles ect...
I think the biggest concern is centre of gravity weight down low and wind sheer caused by superstructure's being to high.
And the other thing HAVING FUN IT'S A HOBBY.
there is no right and wrong way of developing our boats each boat will suit the owner's needs :wink:
happy paddling
anth
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Good point Anthony!
Trial and error was part of aussie paddlers since the beginning. Bunyip and Gemini the twin hulled centrewheelers...they didn't work so they were changed. The use of sidewheels to adapt to the Murray River, the use of portable engines because of their readiness!
Instead of refined you could say our boats were basic, built quickly but strongly with the trials of the river pioneers going in to making the 'super boats' of the end of the era. Composite hulls, location of wheels, engine use etc etc etc.
After the mathematics are worked out for original postioning then trial and error will kick in to moving bits around and getting the perfect paddler!
You know what? I really can't wait for the Grebe to be ready for this time when I get to work out what goes where and how much of this and that can go etc!
It's going to be fun to work it out and be challenged along the way. And I tell you all I've learned so much about boat construction through this forum especially of late so I'm really thankful for this website!
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That is a good point!!
I think that trial and error is a good way to go (I must admit that you need a few good calculations) But I decided to do this so I could have a hobby and fun as well...
See I will do initial calculations to get a basic idea of where everything should go, but Sean I cant wait either, to get her in the water for the first time and then seeing what I could change because as Anth said it is inevitable that we will move or change something or other!!
And I think I am taking the SJ (or part of the SJ mainly the ribbing) to Duck Flat Wooden Boats in SA so they can make some ribs to replace the ones that are on the inside, hopefully wont cost me too much... I am not that advanced in boat building yet..
And yeah, I have learnt heaps in the past month that I have been on PD's so thanks everyone!!!
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McLeod has built 6 paddlers. 1: a small plywood paddleboat, doesn't exist anymore 2: PS Murray Queen now in Tasmania 3: PS James Maiden now owned by Mick Black 4: PS Adventurous now owned by Phil Blake 5: PS Elizabeth sold 2004 renamed and motorbike engine fitted owned by Russel Anderson 6: PS F06 owned by Peter McLeod
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The engine out of elizabeth can be seen each june at the echuca rally I caught up with peter last june to get some advice on my paddler and we went down to have a look at his new one.
IT"S HUGE....!!!
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Is Peter's new boat the PS F06?? Because I have been on that and I thought that it was quite roomy...
I am going to get to Echuca soon enough and get some in person info, maybe bump into a PD up there!! You never know!!
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I am not 100% sure but i would say peter's new boat isn't finished yet,when we saw it it was a hull and superstructure with some wood work and a large twin cylinder steam engine in the middle.
Michael or sean would be the best one to answer that!
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yes it is...huge thing! Supposed to look something like Canberra or the Original upper works of POTM when finished...but that could be because he was one of the designers of Pride Of The Murray wasn't he...can someone verify this?
Elizabeth was renamed Babbler after it's change of ownership and engine.
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I enclose a photo from Michael, showing the often-mentioned PS Minimus. I don't know the dimensions, but the scale can be judged from the adjacent people.
I didn't blow it up and crop, as the adjacent paddlewheel on PS Barmah may help answer some questions too.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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minimus
Minimus was built by Geoff walker,the design is based upon the Emmy lou.She was designed so she could be transported by trailer and her hull is all aluminium with 3mm sheet used thru out, the basic dimensions are 20 foot long and 10 feet wide over the paddle wheels.The width can be reduced to 8 feet for transport (IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW THIS IS DONE PLEASE TELL ME) .I had a brief chat with the owner and forgot to ask.
she runs a strathsteam 5hp (500 rpm) single cylinder steam engine and vertical boiler 110 psi.
funny enough my wife and I were there when minimus was next to billy tea.. :shhh
cheers anthony
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mmmm, I know.. I would like to now how the reduce the width by 2' when transporting it..
And it honestly doesnt look that big, I mean when I picture my boat Minimus 6' longer and 4'5'' wider.. It really didnt look that big in Roderick's picture either. But dimensions are dimensions...
And I wouldn't mind something like F06.. But I dont think I would like it to look like POTM or Canberra, I think I would go more AA or Oscar W look if I had a choice..
Anyone know if the PS or PV Emma is still around?? Was once upon a time the smallest boat on the river.. Has it be renamned??
Cheers
:beer
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While waiting for a close-range shot from Michael or from Anth, here is Michael's earlier photo treated a diffent way: cropped to focus on Minimus.
Small PV Emma was lengthened, and renamed PV Gemma (a tribute to much larger Gem). It was gutted by fire in April or May 06, and is on the owner's property for sale as a package with the mooring right.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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I have minimus next to Henry Charles. There is an article on her in Australian Amature Boat Builder (!?!?!?) where it discusses construction of the boat, it might have something about extension in that, however I'm not sure. I have that magazine at home, marion on the front cover.
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The notes and photo formerly here have been transferred to the Research forum, APAM list thread.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Roderick, can you add this post onto APAM as I think it would be of great benefit to the paddle ducks section.
For such a small boat it sure has some towing power!
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I remember seeing the Mosquito go through the lock at Mildura in, I think, 2000...
Mum said that it looked like her type of boat, nice and small.
I also remember it being bigger, but then I was smaller as well..
And yeah, if it can tow that much, geez... Little boat full of 'oomph'!!
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Haha that was a funny day when I took that photo, Billy Tea came moored beside Minimus, then Barmah tied off him and then James Maiden came charging in pushing everyone into each other and ended up smashing up Minimu's back deck. You can see Luke trying his best to push her off
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The James Maiden seems to do a lot of charging whenever I see the boat!!
And I was going to subsrcibe to the Australian Amature Boatbuilder, but it says that I have to put in an issue number to start from.. dont know anything about that one ?!?!?!?!?!
It would contain all the secrets and tips of boat building!!
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It does seem that the majority of builders/owners of boats in the very-small class chose SL rather than PS: possibly because of ease of towing.
However, it does seem that the hulls could go either way, and there is a definite theme to the styling: very Edwardian, with curved canopies, which would look just as good as PV or MV.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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We saw a few steam launches at the past couple of Wooden Boat Festivals in Goolwa.. Dad really likes them and want SJ to become a Steam Launch.. I would have to put paddles on them though... :wink:
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Two more from the Sat.15.5.04 Clayton - Goolwa stage of the celebration run from Renmark.
I have posted the Steam Boat Association of Australia site before:
www.steamboat.com.au
It will be a useful group for information on hull restoration. Also, the group runs several rallies for boats of this size: you could have a lot of fun at them, and inspire more members to consider paddle propulsion.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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Yes, I remember the SL Flaming Galah!! It is a good looking boat.. is the Website for the Steam Boat Association just www.steamboatassociation.com.au??
We could get people to become interested in paddlers eh... The more the merrier
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Here are my last two relevant vessels at Goolwa on Sat.15.5.04 for the 150th anniversary of the railway.
I edited my earlier post to include the SBAA website address.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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I have been scanning photos from this event for other parts of Paddleducks, and came across these two:
The first shows the stylish MV Lady B: lovely hull, with the Edwardian effect created by the fabric canopy with roll-down sides. Of interest is the vessel rear right: this was the former Hindmarsh Island punt, superseded by a bridge. It is kept at its former site as a museum piece, but is floated to the main dock for this event to provide extra docking space.
The second shows part of one of the four parades, revealing the variety of boats which attend. The replica PS Mary Ann has a metal hull, but was an invited guest. At the rear right is a Duck Flat Mundoo (IIRC MV Extempore), a later variant of my own Jessie II (from which the photograph was taken by my deckhand). In the foreground is a small motor launch on which the cabin would be hard pressed to provide space for a stereo sound system and a double mattress. My advice to Michael is to go for the Edwardian look (which is likely, his revised plans as at Tues.28.11 had the Edwardian look).
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
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These two were operating at a vintage festival at Glenbrook, using a dam on a farm adjacent to the main site.
The vertical boiler does seem to be a standard amongst vessels in this class.
Regards,
Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor