Paddleducks
Other Marine Models => Live steam => Topic started by: derekwarner_decoy on November 08, 2006, 05:21:27 PM
-
Hi PD's - in [I think snap 14 from our 705 snaps of the slide show] we see the bridge to engine room telegraph in Waverley :kewl
Astern=Stop/Standby/Slow/One half/Full :roll:
Ahead=Finish with Engines/Slow/One half/Full 8)
So my question is 'are Standby/Stop/Finish with Engines' all in the same position in the engine control telegraph toothed arc :?: & just pending confirmation of an order beyond Standby or & Stop :?:
Do not model steam train engine controls have this same toothed arc :?:...... Derek
-
Hmmm, I don't think the telegraph has a 'toothed arc', just a chain sprocket (like on the back wheel of a bicycle) so the action shown in the engine room matches that selected on the bridge.
I don't know that for certain, just a guess.
I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be able to explain the ins and outs of this :D
*a brief description here - http://titanic.marconigraph.com/mgy_eotelegraphs1.html - doesn't quite answer the question but on the picture, it looks like roller chains enter the engine room telegraph......
**on further reading of this site it looks like the telegraph contains simple pulleys and relies on tension (of the chain) to avoid it slipping
-
Just reading the section on the 'gong telegraph' which is what is used on Pevensey and Alexander Arbuthnot...I'm sure many others too...On Murray boats I suppose it's simple enough with only a forward, stop and reverse ring but on larger ships there are the full/half ahead kind of calls which would mean more rings.
Even though we only have three specific rings (four if you count ding ding ding ding ding etc- I need help in the wheel house) it can still get confusing. When I engineered A.A there was some confusion with the amount of times bells were rung and I had to 'guess' what the skipper wanted.
In other info Amphibious was fitted with one of the telegraphs you were talking about in the film 'The River Kings' it adds for some humourous moments
-
Hi all - as one who has spent many many hours watching WAVERLEY's engines, I ought to be able to answer the question - but haven't the faintest idea what the "toothed arc" is!
My understanding is that the telegraph in the engine room is purely a device to repeat the settings made from the bridge as a means of instructing the engineer as to what speed and direction to drive the ship. I can't remember whether this applies to WAVERLEY or not but on other vessels (eg MacBraynes LOCH SEAFORTH), the communication between bridge and engineroom telegraphs sounded like a wire in a tube.
Each time the pointer in the engineroom moves from one setting to the next a bell rings once - so a movement from from SLOW AHEAD to FULL AHEAD would cause the bell to ring twice, and from FULL AHEAD to STOP, four times. It makes maneuvering at piers very tuneful, but the primary instruction is the position of the telegraph, not the number of rings.
When signalling FINISHED WITH ENGINES or STANDBY, it seems normal for the bridge officer to move the telegraph more than strictly necessary, to make sure the bell rings several times, presumably to ensure the engineer's attention.
On just a couple of happy occasions, the last, alas many years ago, the bridge officer has rung from FULL AHEAD right round to FULL ASTERN and back again - maximum speed - we are racing.
Can't work out how to set up a link to "youtube" videos but there are a number of videos there showing WAVERLEY's engines - the one entitled "P. S. Waverley Engine -- 60th Anniversary" shows some of the maneuvering on the approach to Kilcreggan last month with several changes of speed and direction, and the corresponding bell sounds.
Regards
David
-
The only thing I can think of as a toothed arc comes into play with the engines I've engineered.
As the boat is called into let's say forward I move a lever on an arc that has notches in it, pulling the lever towards me I notch it in one of the forward notches to allow steam and direction. Stop in the centre of the 'notched arc' (as it does arc) and then far from me to put her in reverse!
Is this what you mean?
-
Yes Sean - WAVERLEY has similar controls, but they are operated by the engineers and are physically separate from the telegraph.
I found some examples of telegraphs on this link as I suspect that the Australian paddlers, being rather smaller than WAVERLEY don't need much - have a look at these - and then think how you could better spend a couple of thousand dollars :D
http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/telegraphs.html
Regards
David
-
We only need a bell David! I suppose that's one area the size difference shows!
In Our case with our boats being smaller these 'notched arcs' are in a way close to our gong telegraph...or bell as we simply call it! I would imagine that with engines bigger etc that the location would slightly different.
Keep in mind as well our engines are mainly tweaked portables which mean the controls are on the side of the boiler. Other times though they are in the wheel house...which is annoying for engineers because you don't get to do as much! (My opinion anyway!)
-
Hi PD's - :ohno & :sorry if I have created any confunsion...
1) I understand the E/R telegraph to be an indicator & mirror that of the bridge signiling device & both were generally the same sizing, however in many cases both the bridge & the E/R telegraph had twin pointers or "repeaters"
2) an Officer [FUB] on the bridge could request eg., a change in engine speed ... the engineer accepts this on the telegraph,,, proceeds to action the required steam valve movements & then releases the telegraph second pointer to acknowledge to the bridge that the command is completed :rant
3) the Officer on the bridge :D & thinks how happy that he has a good Engineer :boom :hammer down stairs in control of the ship
4) so all of these telegraph movements in days of OLDE were actioned by steam valve rotational movements, however many were controlled or limited on "an" .........a serrated ARC locking device :!: :!: :!: :!:
5) we have 5 snaps of serrated ARC locking devices in our files - Derek :D
-
OK... OK.,.,.,. the serrated "ARC" is pivital on a worm drive & driven by deflection or torque applied [in this case] as required by the Engineer
The serrated "ARC" is not a pressure controlling device, but by design limits or restricts any steam differential hunting by mechanical position - just think about it :?: so simple 8) :idea: Derek
-
:towel :) :)
Hi PD's
Ok...so I think you've got the telegraph bit sussed out pretty well...but the notched ARC ..... and SPEED control.....NO.
The, so called, notched arc originated in the early railways, and it's sole purpose is to control and position the engine valve gear for either FORWARDS or REVERSE, with a Neutral position in the centre.
Which end of the arc was Forward or Reverse was dictated largely by the particular valve gear layout.
A considerable number of steam operated vehicles used such a REVERSING QUADRANT, including locomotives, traction engines, steam lorries and of course, ships; or at least the smaller versions of the later.
Its application was applied only where the size and weight of the valve gear permitted it's use....on larger machines, such as very large locomotives or large marine steam engines, where the physical weight of the valve gear was quite large, to say the least, then alternative means were used...eg. screw reversing or hydraulic or even steam, however, in most of these cases the notched quadrant was ommited, since it became redundant.
Take a look at the pictures of the TITANIC'S engines I posted a short while back......the BL***Y great wheel in the centre of the engines is the reversing gear control....took three men to work it.....but then the valve gear did weigh in at around 600 tons.
For those engines that did have notched quadrants, the valve gear was connected , via a pushrod (known as a reach rod), to a latching control lever (hand operated) which worked over the quadrant and could be locked into any of the notches.
When in the central position, the engine was said to be in Neutral Gear, and if the engine could be turned over manually, you would see that the slide valve, or piston valve, would only move a very small amount (in a well designed valve gear system this movement would only be sufficient to accomodate the LAP and LEAD (if used) of the slide/piston valve).
In this position the valve gear would only permit the smallest amount of steam to enter the cylinder (and then only if LEAD was used) and it would certainly not be sufficient to start the engine under normal load conditions.
When the control lever was in either of the outer ARC (quadrant) notches, either Forward or Reverse, then the valve gear was said to be in FULL GEAR. IN these positions the engine could produce MAXIMUM power.
The intermediate notches were there to provide a means of locking the gear at differing CUT-OFF points. (but with reduced power output)
EG. if FULL GEAR = 80% cut-off, then it would be reasonable to have say 3 other positions, each one a little closer to the centre, for say 70%, 60% and 50%.
The purpose of reducing cut-off is to reduce the amount of steam the engine uses for a given load state, and thus improve the overall efficiency of the vehicle/vessel.
Typically, this would occur once the vehicle/vessel had attained its desired speed and, since kinetic energy could now play a part in continued movement, the valve gear could be altered to say 60% cut-off, which would allow the vehicle/vessel to continue on its way, with no speed loss, but using far less steam.
THIS IS KNOWN AS 'NOTCHING UP', for obvious reasons.
:wink: :terrific
THE NOTCHED ARC(quadrant) is NOT USED to control the SPEED of the engines.
This task is performed by the REGULATOR (or THROTTLE) and this is a completely separate control.
When STARTING any steam engine, the valve gear is placed into FULL GEAR (for the chosen direction) and the Steam is allowed in via the REGULATOR.
When a ship (like Waverley) is being manouvered then the valve gear is moved between both FULL GEAR POSITIONS...never any intermediate one, OTHER THAN NEUTRAL, and this would only be when either STANDBY or FINISHED WITH ENGINES was selected on the telegraph.
STOP ENGINE can occur at any position of the quadrant, since this just means...SHUT OFF THE BL***Y steam.
The difference between STANDBY and FINISHED WITH ENGINES, is that in the latter case the engineer/s would close off all steam valves from the boilers, and possibly also turn off the boiler burners.
OK chaps, I hope that helps a bit more.
I will be going in to valve cut-off , LAP, LEAD etc in the next part of the SAGA....So don't panic, if you are not familiar with these terms.
Best Regards.
Sandy :sunglasses :towel :vacat
-
The more you learn about steam angines the more complicated they seem to become - Thank god Sandy keeps taking us by the hand and talking us through this minefield! Well done yet again mate, your continued support on these steam issues is greatly appreciated!
-
A couple of comments on telegraphs
Â
They are commonly known as Chadburns, after a firm in Liverpool which manufactured a lot for deep sea ships.
Â
Some Clyde steamers had a second docking telegraph with options like "let go fore" and "let go aft" with instructions to those handling the ropes at piers. These were on the bridge wings, with repeaters on the fore and aft areas by the windlass, as far as I know
Â
Alistair
Â
----- Original Message -----
From: Waverley (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 1:49 AM
Subject: RE: Steam Engine Telegraphs ?
Yes Sean - WAVERLEY has similar controls, but they are operated by the engineers and are physically separate from the telegraph.
I found some examples of telegraphs on this link as I suspect that the Australian paddlers, being rather smaller than WAVERLEY don't need much - have a look at these - and then think how you could better spend a couple of thousand dollars (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif)
http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/telegraphs.html (http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/telegraphs.html)
Regards
David
-------------------- m2f --------------------
Exported by Paddleducks Mail System.
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9527#9527 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9527#9527)
-------------------- m2f --------------------
-
I'm confused. Are we talking about engine telegraphs or engine recversing quadrants????
One of my first duties aboard the USS Naifeh DE 352 was helmsman. I also handled the telegraph. The telegraph is just a signaling devise to the engine room. When changine engine speed or direction the operater moved the telegraph back and forth first to signal a change comingup tehn the telegraph was set at speed or direction setting desired. The engine room acknowledged with their telegraph which moved a seccond arrow on the the pilothhouse telegraph to indicate acknowledgement. The telegraph does not control the engines, only the engineeer. The speed of steam engines is controled by a seperate mechanisim depending on the type and size of the engines. Since the Naifeh was steam turbine it was a valve. Although turbines can not be stopped instantly I have experiaced some pretty quick reversing.
The long stroke engines of paddle wheelers usually use a quadrant for reversing the engines. The quadrant usually has three main positions, forward, reverse and stop. However some quadrants have extra notches for forward and reverse running. These control the valve lap to make the engine run more smoothly. The engine speed is still controlled by a seperate steam valve which controlls the ammount of steam fed to the engine.
-
On engine room telegraphs, I shall shortly be asking Eddy to put a video from our last Waverley trip on the site. It was taken in the engineroom as Waverly's captain set out from Helensburgh pier and shows the actions of both the telegraph, complete with resounding 'dings' and engine controll levers in action :D I hope this will help to clarify things.
-
Hi PD's & you think you are confused :ohno Bob, I started the thread :oops: :hehe :music so lets start again
The [FUB] officer on the bridge signals down a command on the telegraph to the E/R..... the engineer or greaser adjusts the valve/s according to the command & when completed shunts the E/R telegraph to the corresponding position which is then relayed to the bridge telegraph where the officer on the bridge thinks all is OK
BUT :evil: :twisted: :roll: :evil: what was to stop a disgruntled engine room rating :hmmm :rant :thinking i'll fix you :nose & performing an action that did not correspond to the telegraph :?: command :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :darn
So after many such incidents & marine :gather investigations.... some bright :idea: spark thought of connecting the telegraph to the steam control valving & engine position QUADRANT
Oh BTW, a [FUB] is the colloquial term used by engine room :bow ratings :nah when posting terms of endearment about deck officers & the intellegence quotient :shoot displayed by some...... :hehe - Derek
-
Hi Derek
What you say must apply to many ships - modern ones have their engines controlled directly from the bridge, do they not?
But this is not the case with WAVERLEY. As several of us have said, the engine room telegraph is merely a signal to the engineers who are expected to obey it. It seems to work perfectly well and I cannot recall reading of any incident on the Clyde where an engineer put the engines ahead instead of astern or vv. If this was to happen it would be immediately noticeable on the bridge due to the responsiveness of her engines (you can feel her changing speed) - the large amount of water churned up by the paddles would also be a bit of a giveaway if the wheels were rotating in the wrong direction.
On WAVERLEY the communication is normally "one way" - I do not believe that the signal is acknowledged by the engineroom under normal circumstances - as the telegraph is very heavily used (sometimes every few seconds) especially when mooring, it is probably not practical.
And of course, on WAVERLEY the engineer is in a highly visible position, supervised by a large nunber of "experts" (like me :D ) so he couldn't make a mistake, could he?
The system may be obsolete, but it works.
This thread has really split into two bits now - the subject of engine controls has been covered by others - I'm hoping to be back on WAVERLEY next May if you can wait till then for a fuller "hot off the press" description :D - but a couple of additions specific to WAVERLEY now.
The controls comprise about 6 levers - after 50 years I still don't know what they all do.
One of them is a "notched thingy" which controls direction - "ahead", "astern" or "neutral" as Bill described. I am fairly certain this lever is only used when direction changes.
A second is also a "notched thingy" and is used to control speed. The further forward the lever is, the faster she goes. This is used extensively when manouvering at piers. On passage, the lever is usually about three quarters of the way forward (as opposed to flat out) which gives a reasonably economical cruising speed, but in some locations such as the upper reaches of the Clyde she will cruise at half speed or less to avoid her wash damaging moored vessels. (and one way to tell that you are out in really bad weather is when she runs at half speed in the open sea - this is to reduce the risk of paddle wheel damage)
As for the other levers - there is, I believe a very nice booklet available on WAVERLEY called "how the engines work" or similar - if I had a copy I would quote chapter and verse, but that will have to wait till May, I suppose.
As for the original question - when "stop" is signalled, I believe it is normal to shut off steam (of course) and put the engines in "neutral" as the engineer is not expected to predict the next command - when changing direction (say she is running ahead) the sequence would be "stop", followed by "astern" (rather than just "astern"). "Stand by" and "finished with engines" ahould not require an effort from the engineer at all, as the engines will currently be in the "stop" position.
I'm always very impressed with the way WAVERLEY's engines are controlled - when one hears stories of modern vessels requiring ten or twenty miles to stop it is always nice to think that WAVERLEY can go from "full ahead" to "full astern" in only a few seconds (with the same astern power as ahead) and virtually stop on the proverbial sixpence.
Regards
David
-
Hi PD's & thanks David... it is refreshing ...:coffee to talk about :hammer :hammer again, however I couldn't see PS Waverley cornering on a sixpence :luck
Was it not another PD that posted ..... :sorry PS Waverley went aground some time back :?: :?: :oops:
It is never too late, so a few snaps of the telegraph :crash system would be interesting :rant - Derek
-
Not steer on a sixpence - STOP on a sixpence. Paddles when stopped or going astern make very effective "brakes". Steering when going astern can be a bit of a problem as she seems to have a mind of her own in this respect - it's a pity they couldn't fit the proposed bow rudder during her major refurbishment a few years ago.
As for the latest "grounding", she was maneuvering at Girvan at very low tide and came into contact with a sandbank. No damage. 20 years ago she would just have continued in service but now it was necessary to cancel the cruise, provide refunds, and organise and pay for land transport to get the passengers home. The non-event appeared in the press (over-hyped) and no doubt discouraged passengers from sailing on subsequent days - if nothing else, my reading of the press report suggested she would be out of service for a few days when in fact she was running normally the next day.
Her only major grounding was back in 1977 when she ran onto the Gantock rocks by Dunoon and was almost an insurance write-off - this was caused by a failure of the steering gear.
Regards David (in a dark (at 4:30pm) wet and miserable Milton Keynes in the onset of winter , miles from the sea, six months from my next sailing, so seriously thinking of going to the pub)
-
Hi PD's & a quote....from David...
Her only major grounding was back in 1977 when she ran onto the Gantock rocks by Dunoon and was almost an insurance write-off - this was caused by a failure of the steering gear.
I know little if not :?: :?: :?: :?: re steam steering mechanism's.... all before my time.... I can only :computer visualize a pair of cylinders driving a worm shaft & meshing with a worm wheel to rotate the rudder :arrow: :arrow: :darn........... Derek
-
Here is a fuzzy shot of the steering engine on the Steam Tug Portland, Portland, Oregon.
Dave