Paddleducks
Paddler Information => Research => Topic started by: Eddy Matthews on April 04, 2005, 06:41:58 AM
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Hi guys,
I'm trying to find all the info I can on the "Glen Sannox", built in 1892 by J & G Thompson. Can anyone help in finding a detailed history of the ship, and photographs please?
Any help would be appreciated for a future modelling project....
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Hi Eddy
Anything particular you want - I have many but not all of the standard Clyde shipping histories and will be happy to dig out anything I can find. It'll be a good excuse to do a bit of reading.
Regards
David
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Thanks for the reply David...
As far as modelling the vessel is concerned, the main thing would be photographs and perhaps a detailed description of her colour scheme.
Apart from knowing who built her and when, I know very little about the ship - A few brief paragraphs in the book "Clyde River Steamers 1872 - 1922" is about all the info I have on her.
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Here you are Eddy. These were in my files and should help you with colour:
A couple of color postcard pics of "Glen Sannox" and a monochrome which Al Gould from Glasgow sent me a few years ago.
"Glen Sannox" 1892 by J and G Thomson at Clydebank. One of the fastest
paddlers ever built for the Clyde.
260.5 ft x 30.1 ft
GSWR steamer on the Arran run May 1892 until the First World War.
Scrapped at Port Glasgow 1925 and replaced by a turbine steamer of the same name.
Pretty steamer she was!
Regards
PJ
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Thanks for those Paul - I'll add them to my collection.
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Has there been a change in the off-site email facility? A few weeks ago I could see the attachments when I read postings with photos with Outlook Express, now they are missing, all I can see are smileys, not even a box with a red X in the corner
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Alistair
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Hi Alistair:
From what I understand from Eddy, we don't get pics in the "offsite mailings", least I haven't been getting any either.
Very best to you all in "Bonnie Scotland" (I miss the Clyde!)
PJ
PS. Boy! that "Glen Sannox" was a super looking ship. Someone HAS to make a model of her. Wonder where her plans are?
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PS. Boy! that "Glen Sannox" was a super looking ship. Someone HAS to make a model of her....
In Model Boats and Marine Modelling International (?) magazines last month, were articles with photos (small photos though) about the Clyde Steamer Club - and I'm sure they had one :D
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Hi PJ, plans for Glen Sannox are held at the Mitchell Library, Glasgow. I have oredered a set for Eddy in return for a great kindness he did for me. They consist of 2 sheets at 1/48th scale and a rigging plan at 1/96th. There is also a superb l;arge model of herr in the Glasgow transport museum. Regards, Walter.
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Hi Eddy - long delay with this but I lost my net connection for a couple of weeks & had a lot of catching up to do.
Livery details for Glen Sannox (and other GSWR steamers) from "The Golden Age of Clyde Steamers" by AJS Patterson.
Funnel - scarlet with black top
Hull - light grey with dark red underbody and plain white saloons and sponson housings. Three dark brown lines painted at mainrail level, at the promenade deck and at lower sponson level from stem to stern. (You can see these in the pictures).
Paddleboxes - white "with much ornamentation" including the GSWR crest on a circular panel
Deckhouses - varnished teak
Lifeboats - white with white covers.
From 1923 when she was owned by the LMS Railway she was painted in the standard LMS colours for which I do not have the details to hand. However, the hull was black and the funnel in the "tartan lum" livery (for those who are not Scottish - a "lum" is a "funnel"). The "tartan lum" was an LMS abomination imposed on its entire fleet - buff, with a black top and a red band between the buff and the black. It looked the horrible compromise it was and was very unpopular and was replaced by the well known CSP buff with black top that many of us remember in, I think, 1925.
Still - I can't see anyone painting a model of GLEN SANNOX in LMS livery!
More to come,
Regards David
PS I am quite sure that Duckworth & Langmuir's "Clyde River and other steamers" (my copy in storage at the moment) will describe the LMS livery and may provide a bit more on the GSWR livery.
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Thanks for that David, a great help.... The model will definately be painted in GSWR colour scheme, I think it's the most attractive of any used on the Clyde steamers.
One thing I could definately do with is a good quality image of the GSWR crest that is on the paddleboxes.
As before, any photos would be very useful, particularly of the deck and deckhouses etc.
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More on GLEN SANNOX which I hope will be of interest - though "old hat" to some readers. However steamer history fascinates me and I like to think that those who model are also interested in the prototype.
GLEN SANNOX was built by J & G Thompson Ltd (who also constructed the engines and later became John Brown & Co) for the Arran service of the Glasgow and South Western Railway (GSWR).
Length 260' 5"
Breadth 30' 1 "
Depth 10' 1"
Boilers 2 - 150lb / sq in
Cylinders - compound diagonal 26" & 55" by 54"
Launched 26 March 1892
First commercial voyage 6 June 1892
For those not familiar with the Clyde, Arran is the largest and southernmost of its inhabited islands. Currently it is served by Caledonian MacBrayne car ferry which runs from Ardrossan on the mainland to Brodick on the island's east coast. In GLEN SANNOX's day, when travel by land was difficult, the Arran steamers served Brodick, and then sailed south down the island's east coast to Lamlash, the ferry call at King's Cross and Whiting Bay. Ardrossan is connected to Glasgow by rail and the through journey takes about 2 hours, including a 55 min ferry crossing. The fastest journey by GLEN SANNOX and train in 1892 was Brodick - Glasgow in 80 minutes. This is called "progress"
GLEN SANNOX was built as a side effect of the rivalry between two of Scotland's railway companies - the Caledonian and the Glasgow and South Western. The Caledonian was the larger, and surrounded the GSWR, which was in a constant battle for traffic with the Caley. Both companies had lines serving the Firth of Clyde.
Prior to 1889, the steamer services were provided by private owners or companies. (A railway company required authorisation from Parliament to operate shipping services which was often hard, and always expensive to obtain). Some of these services operated all the way from Glasgow, and picked up extra traffic at the railheads, while some were operated in cooperation with the railway comapnies. The Arran service was operated by SCOTIA, a paddle steamer owned by Capt Buchanan. SCOTIA was built in 1880 and was a good solid vessel for all year service (the lower Clyde can be very nasty in winter) but she was no flyer.
In 1889 the Caley extended its Greenock line to the new large pier at Gourock and tried to make arrangements for calls with the private companies. There was little interest as these companies already connected wth the GSWR at Greenock, a couple of miles away. The Caley endeavoured to obtain Parliamentary powers to operate its own ships - the established private owners (and the GSWR) objected and the powers were refused. So the Caley arranged for the formation of the Caledonian Steam Packet Company (CSP) to operate ships on its behalf. This may be seen as cheating but they got away with it.
With a couple of second hand vessels and a number of new ships the CSP expanded operation rapidly. They operated from Gourock in 1889, and from Wemyss Bay from 1890. Their ships were of a much higher standard than the majority of their competitors in terms of passenger comfort and speed, and they quickly attracted most of the passengers who had used the GSWR through Greenock and Fairlie.
In 1890 the Caley opened a new line to its own steamer pier in Ardrossan harbour and built the DUCHESS OF HAMILTON for its new service to Arran. Again this hurt the GSWR - SCOTIA was totally outclassed (DUCHESS OF HAMILTON could leave Brodick 10 minutes after SCOTIA and arrive at Ardrossan first), the GSWR had to pay Captain Buchanan a subsidy to cover his losses on the run and, to add insult to injury, DUCHESS OF HAMILTON and SCOTIA collided one day in the confines of Ardrossan harbour - in the resulting court case the HAMILTON was deemed the guilty party and Capt Buchanan awarded £32 damages.
THE GSWR had to respond - they applied for Parliamnetary powers top operate steamers and the powers were granted with restrictions upon ports served to protect some of the private owners. The GSWR also acquired second hand tonnage and started building its own fleet in readiness for the 1892 season. The aim was to produce a fleet even better than the Caley's.
GLEN SANNOX was the third and probably the finest of the new GSWR vessels. She was built to compete with DUCHESS OF HAMILTON on the Arran service and in this she was successful - she was much faster than the DUCHESS at a time when speed meant much.
More to come...
Regards, David
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A fascinating glimpse into history David - £32 damages for the collision eh? Imagine what they would be today, once the lawyers got their grubby hands on the case!
Please, please, continue the story - I knew a good bit of what you posted, but certainly not everything. I eagerly await the next installment!
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GLEN SANNOX - continued.
Many steamer histories provide little information on what the vessels actually did - fortunately the Clyde is quite well documented in this respect.
GLEN SANNOX only operated in summer (approximately June to September). In winter the GSWR used GLEN ROSA, at least at first.
GLEN SANNOX spent the night at Whiting Bay, leaving shortly after 7am and calling at Lamlash, King's Cross ferry and Brodick (8am in 1892) and then heading for Ardrossan. A return journey by the same route gave 3 hours "free time" after arrival at Whiting Bay which allowed a cruise to such destinations as Campbeltown Loch (non landing as she wasn't allowed to call), round Arran and round Ailsa Craig. The day finished with a second return trip, via all the piers, to Ardrossan.
On Saturdays she provided a third return to Ardrossan instead of the cruise and, as this was Scotland, she did not sail on Sunday.
(1922 departures from Whiting Bay were 06:30 and 14:55 with returns from Ardrossan at 10:10 and 18:00, but this was after the competition was over)
The silly thing was that this timetable was followed, within a few minutes, by DUCHESS OF HAMILTON, so every service was a potential race. Worse perhaps, was that, while there were 4 services a day to and from Arran, they ran in pairs - miss both the morning boats and you had a long wait for the next pair.
The other aspect was that this competition was horribly expensive. Anywhere one company went, so did the other and not just on the Arran run. Both companies lost considerable sums on their shipping operations but neither was prepared to give in to the other for many years. And the general public were in favour, believing that coordination would lead to slower services and higher fares.
In 1902 the Caley realised that DUCHESS OF HAMILTON was outclassed, and changed her duties. She now lay at Brodick, and sailed south to Lamlash and Whiting Bay before heading for Ardrossan, providing a much faster journey for Whiting Bay passengers in particular. In 1902 both companies substituted a third crossing for the lunchtime cruise, but that only lasted one year.
In 1906 GLEN SANNOX had a new competitor - the Caley's new turbine steamer DUCHESS OF ARGYLL replaced DUCHESS OF HAMILTON. Turbine steamers were seen as "modern" and the ARGYLL was a very popular ship. She was also faster in service than GLEN SANNOX.
Finally, in 1909 the railways came to an agreement about limiting competition. Some services which were duplicated would be operated by a single vessel only, allowing ships to be laid up and consequent economies. It was the intention that the Arran service would be operated by a single vessel provided in turn by the GSWR and the Caley. In 1909 DUCHESS OF ARGYLL was laid up and GLEN SANNOX had the run to herself while GLEN SANNOX herself did not sail at all in 1910. She was back on her normal route in 1911 but 1912 saw her, for the only time, on a completely different service.
This was the excursion sailing from Greenock to Arran via the upper firth piers, Rothesay and the Kyles of Bute, a long established cruise that was still one of WAVERLEY's regular duties in 1970. As far as I am aware, this is the only time GLEN SANNOX was used away from her normal station.
By this time it had been realised that one vessel could no longer cope with the Arran traffic, and for the last two years before World War 1 GLEN SANNOX and DUCHESS OF ARGYLL both served Arran.
At the start of the War, GLEN SANNOX was requisitioned. I can't recall the reference, but I believe she was intended to be used as a cross channel troop ship (as was DUCHESS OF ARGYLL). She was, however returned as "unsuitable" and so remained on the Arran run for the duration of the war, and for that matter till her withdrawal. The Cayley ceased to sail from Ardrossan, so now GLEN SANNOX served both railway piers in Ardrossan once the Cayley line reopened (it had been closed "for the duration"). Normally GLEN SANNOX operated the main service still with cruise at times and was assisted by the GSWR turbine ATALANTA.
In 1923 the Cayley and GSWR were amalgamated into the London, Midland and Scottish Railway (LAMS) - this affected her appearance but not her work.
GLEN SANNOX was a magnificent looking ship, fast and comfortable, but she had one major defect - her coal consumption (and this is why the Admiralty rejected her). In 1892 when labour and coal were cheap, this was an acceptable price to pay for speed - in the different circumstances of the 1920's she became more and more uneconomic to operate.
In early 1925 the Board of Trade's annual survey reported that the boilers were wearing out, and that she would not be awarded a passenger certificate for 1926 unless they were replaced. They had lasted well, but were, somewhat unusually, original. The LMS discovered they could acquire a brand new turbine steamer for only twice the reboilering cost and, hardly surprisingly, that is the option they chose.
The result was the new turbine GLEN SANNOX which acquired the name and duties of one of the most spectacular ships to ever grace the waters of the Clyde.
I wish I had had a chnnce to sail on her
Regards
David Milne
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Eddy - Glad you found it interesting - 99% from memory!
I can't suggest much in the way of detail photo's & I certainly don't recall seeing any of her decks in colour although she doesn't seem to have had much in the way of deck houses.
Roy Wilson's "Passenger steamers of the Glasgow & South Western Railway" has a number of photographs of her, including an interior shot of her first class saloon (main deck aft, where WAVERLEY'S restaturant is), but I'm not sure I would reccommend buying the book. However, it would seem from photos here that the exteriors of the ventilators were white - although I'll pass on the interior colours.
I have not yet seen Alistair Deayton's book on the GSWR (which is a bit naughty of me as he is a member here too) but it may be worth a look.
There is a Glasgow & South Western Railway Society which has been around for many years & has a website - they may have something.
I would like to see a close up of the paddlebox.
Regards
David Milne
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Eddy - Glad you found it interesting - 99% from memory!
Absolutely fascinating David, many many thanks. You obviously have a MUCH better memory than me! :-)
I can't suggest much in the way of detail photo's & I certainly don't recall seeing any of her decks in colour although she doesn't seem to have had much in the way of deck houses.
I hope to make another trip up to the Glasgow transport museum in the next month or so - In the Clyde Room there is a gorgeous model of the Glen Sannox, but typically I never bothered to photograph it on previous trips - Far too many other models that took my eye! Needless to say I'll be taking a LOT of photos of the model next time I visit!
There is a Glasgow & South Western Railway Society which has been around for many years & has a website - they may have something.
I've been trying to access their website http://www.gswra.org.uk for the last few weeks, but either it's been abandoned, or they have some problems as I've never managed to get onto it yet.
I would like to see a close up of the paddlebox.
When I photograph the model in the transport museum I'll send you a copy of the paddlebox detail - Though I have no way of confirming how accurate it may be.
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In 1923 the GSWR paddlers kept their grey hulls, and in 1924 they had black hulls, and the red band on the tartan lum was narrower. The Sannox did not sail after September 1924, so when she went to the breakers in May 1925 she still had the tartan lums
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Alistair
----- Original Message -----
From: Paddleducks (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: research@paddleducks.co.uk (research@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: Glen Sannox
The following message was posted on Paddleducks, by Waverley
Hi Eddy - long delay with this but I lost my net connection for a couple of weeks & had a lot of catching up to do.
Livery details for Glen Sannox (and other GSWR steamers) from "The Golden Age of Clyde Steamers" by AJS Patterson.
Funnel - scarlet with black top
Hull - light grey with dark red underbody and plain white saloons and sponson housings. Three dark brown lines painted at mainrail level, at the promenade deck and at lower sponson level from stem to stern. (You can see these in the pictures).
Paddleboxes - white "with much ornamentation" including the GSWR crest on a circular panel
Deckhouses - varnished teak
Lifeboats - white with white covers.
From 1923 when she was owned by the LMS Railway she was painted in the standard LMS colours for which I do not have the details to hand. However, the hull was black and the funnel in the "tartan lum" livery (for those who are not Scottish - a "lum" is a "funnel"). The "tartan lum" was an LMS abomination imposed on its entire fleet - buff, with a black top and a red band between the buff and the black. It looked the horrible compromise it was and was very unpopular and was replaced by the well known CSP buff with black top that many of us remember in, I think, 1925.
Still - I can't see anyone painting a model of GLEN SANNOX in LMS livery!
More to come,
Regards David
PS I am quite sure that Duckworth & Langmuir's "Clyde River and other steamers" (my copy in storage at the moment) will describe the LMS livery and may provide a bit more on the GSWR livery.
Exported by Paddleducks Mail System.
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Roy Wilson's "Passenger steamers of the Glasgow & South Western Railway" has a number of photographs of her, including an interior shot of her first class saloon (main deck aft, where WAVERLEY'S restaturant is), but I'm not sure I would reccommend buying the book. However, it would seem from photos here that the exteriors of the ventilators were white - although I'll pass on the interior colours.
I have not yet seen Alistair Deayton's book on the GSWR (which is a bit naughty of me as he is a member here too) but it may be worth a look.
Â
It has 12 pictures of the Glen Sannos, including one of the engines and one of her being scrapped, two timetable covers and a handbill or page out of the timetable showing the mid-day excursions.
It has photos of all the GSWR paddlers and some other miscellaneous Clyde fleets. Cost is £12.99 (GBP), published by Tempus Publishing 2002, ISNB 0-7524-2713-3. Obtainable from bookshops, the publishers or myself, drop me an email to Alistair@Deayton.frereserve.co.uk (alistair@deayton.frereserve.co.uk) if you are interested in a copy
There is a Glasgow & South Western Railway Society which has been around for many years & has a website - they may have something.
Â
They did a booklet on the GSWR steamers earlier this year, although it was a limited print run.
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Alistair
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It has 12 pictures of the Glen Sannos, including one of the engines and one of her being scrapped, two timetable covers and a handbill or page out of the timetable showing the mid-day excursions.
It has photos of all the GSWR paddlers and some other miscellaneous Clyde fleets. Cost is £12.99 (GBP), published by Tempus Publishing 2002, ISNB 0-7524-2713-3. Obtainable from bookshops, the publishers or myself, drop me an email to Alistair@Deayton.frereserve.co.uk (alistair@deayton.frereserve.co.uk) if you are interested in a copy
Thanks for that Alistair - It sounds like your book is probably worth adding to my collection. Could you email me with your adress etc so I can send a cheque for a copy?
My email address is: eddy.matthews2@ntlworld.com
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Eddy - Glad you found it interesting - 99% from memory!
Absolutely fascinating David, many many thanks. You obviously have a MUCH better memory than me! :-)
No I don't - I cringe with embarassment. I got the year of her withdrawal wrong : As Alistair says below, she was withdrawn at the end of the 1924 season not the 1925 one - please subtract 1 year from each date in the last couple of paragraphs :oops:
Regards, David