Paddleducks
Other Marine Models => Live steam => Topic started by: Engineman on March 22, 2006, 04:16:10 PM
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It seems that this very interesting forum coming along pretty slow :) . Thou I'm not a paddleduck at all I guess some of my experience can be a sort of interest for enthusiast of smoke'n'steam.
Here is a couple of pictures of my steam engine (recent status).
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Hi PD’s & Engineman, may I ask a few questions
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1)      it she really a compound HP & LP? – beautiful anyway
2)      Are you the builder? – if so congratulations, if not still congratulations as you must be the owner
3)Â Â Â Â Â Â What is the bore & stroke?
4)Â Â Â Â Â Â Is that a gas tank with the dished ends just behind the engine?
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The reason I ask this last question is I have just taken delivery of my ACS [Scottish built] gas tank & am happy with it but the filling nozzle is designed for one of those expensive EN416 disposable gas canisters – naturally I asked Sandy from ACS if any thing could be modified, but the answer was a little clouded & accept this from a point of a manufacturers legality with Laws etc
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However from a modelers point I note in many links from the JMC site via our PD links, many French model steamers appear to have standard Primus/PortaGas tanks in their snaps which I can only assume are for refilling their model boiler tanks
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So my real question is, are you able to shed any light on the refilling issue? – regards Derek
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BTW, from the JMC links [as above] there is a spectacular WEB site to a Daniel Bouard – builder of model marine steam engines beyond comprehension – spend 10 minutes & you will stay for an hour
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From: Engineman [mailto:livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, 22 March 2006 4:16 PM
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk
Subject: Full Steam Ahead!
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It seems that this very interesting forum coming alone pretty slow (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif). Thou I'm not a paddleduck at all I guess some of my experience can be a sort of interest for enthusiast of smoke'n'steam.
Here is a couple of pictures of my steam engine (recent status).
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It seems that this very interesting forum coming along pretty slow :) . Thou I'm not a paddleduck at all I guess some of my experience can be a sort of interest for enthusiast of smoke'n'steam.
Here is a couple of pictures of my steam engine (recent status).
A lot of the Paddleducks members are interested in steam plant Engineman, after all, virtually every type of steam engine has been used in a paddler at some time in the past!
Yours looks like a real work of art - I just wish I had the machinery and the ability to produce something like that myself, but sadly I just don't seem to get on with metalwork - Give me wood anyday, then I'm a happy bunny. Unfortunately I haven't found any satisfactory way of making a steam engine from wood :-(
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Hi Derek,
my answers:
1) Nope, my engine is not a really compound, only the dummy cylinder covers;
2) Yes, I'm the builder, the engineer and the owner;
3) The bore is 12mm, the stroke is 16mm. That's the true marine engine :) ;
4) Yep, it is the gas tank.
What about your next question - I guess you need a so-called fuel adaptor. I have two of them - one 'Cheddar standard', one from REGNER. To be honest - never met this prob at all.
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A lot of the Paddleducks members are interested in steam plant Engineman, after all, virtually every type of steam engine has been used in a paddler at some time in the past!
Yours looks like a real work of art - I just wish I had the machinery and the ability to produce something like that myself, but sadly I just don't seem to get on with metalwork - Give me wood anyday, then I'm a happy bunny. Unfortunately I haven't found any satisfactory way of making a steam engine from wood :-(
Thank you for your kind words Eddy. I guess it's time to promote me from Deckhand to Mechanic :D .
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Thank you for your kind words Eddy. I guess it's time to promote me from Deckhand to Mechanic :D .
Mechanic???? You deserve to be a Chief Engineer at least, and now you ARE :-)
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Thank you for your kind words Eddy. I guess it's time to promote me from Deckhand to Mechanic :D .
Mechanic???? You deserve to be a Chief Engineer at least, and now you ARE :-)
Thanks again Eddy. You're too good for me :D . But I'm proud to be simply a mechanic (a commander of the engine room :) ) as it was during my service in the NAVY.
BTW my engine was designed especially for a model of an early Thorneycroft turtleback TB if there is any interest :wink: .
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BTW my engine was designed especially for a model of an early Thorneycroft turtleback TB if there is any interest :wink: .
Yes, yes, YES!! I love the early torpedo boats, so please tell us more about it!
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BTW my engine was designed especially for a model of an early Thorneycroft turtleback TB if there is any interest :wink: .
Yes, yes, YES!! I love the early torpedo boats, so please tell us more about it!
Well, in general the real prototype is (was) a standard 65 tons 1st class torpedo boat (with side mounted funnels :D ) that was built by John Thorneycroft for the Royal Navy as well as for Swedish, Russian etc. NAVies. My model is a big one - somewhat 60 in in length. But it is too early to show something at the moment :) . Let me finish with the propulsion system first :) . Anyways here is a couple of photos of the prototype :) .
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Thanks Engineman - & hi PD's, but I am still not sure about the gas filler you note - the Chedder site is gone & I cannot negotiate the Regner site
Do you use PORTAGAS decanted from a conventional refillable bottle into a model refillable gas tank? - regards Derek
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Hey, whats all this promotion buisiness? At 65, I am still Cabin Boy, when is it my turn? Anyway, everyone knows you cannot be a chief engineer unless you know every verse of Kiplings McAndrews hymn by heart and speak with a strong Scottish accent (and type messages with the same accent). Seriously though, A very nice engine. Och aye the noo, de ye ken , and lang may yer wee puffers lum reek.! cheers for now Walter MacSporran wee Toddy Mc Snowdon. PS I have my own oily rag and oil can.
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Sorry, forgot what I was really on about. If you cant find a filler nozzle from the usual steam or model boat suppliers, try looking in Garden Rail magazine, most live steam model railways are now gas fired and there a
re a lot of steam accessory manufacturers advertising in tha magazine. Regards, Walter.
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Hi Pd’s – so we have ENGINEMAN in Zengrab & SANDY in Scotland & I think they are both full of steam??!!!!! – one consideration could be for all PD’s to contribute $1.00 each & get these members together to post MORE cross related steam MESSAGES Â in our WEB site ------------- or possibly fine them if they don’t------- Derek
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Hi PD’s – couldn’t resist the fun – I think ‘bits & pieces’ was by the dave clarke 5, but I am sure they didn’t have a double bass - Derek
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From: Derek Warner [mailto:dlwarner@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Sunday, 2 April 2006 11:27 AM
To: Forest Classic (info@forest-classic.co.uk)
Cc: ACSengineering
Subject: Special Gas Tank
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Morning BIXHEAD Engineering from Derek Warner in Australia – as you can see from the .jpg, I am the proud owner of quite a collection of steam ‘Bits & Pieces’’ from Sandy Campbell of ACS Engineering including the BIX Engines refillable Gas Tank No 473 [& also a French JMC 3H engine]
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Question – do you manufacture specials? – could you quote for a similar twin tank assembly as shown in the ‘GasTankTwin.bmp’ attachment? – essentially using two of your standard tanks as above & the additional tapping’s & banjo’s for cross connection on top & bottom etc…..& a double base mounting [please do not quote for a double bass as it would be very difficult to fit in the FWD hold with the proposed twin tanks even @ 1/25 scale]……
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I use PAYPAL, however would be happy to purchase through ACS…. if necessary…..
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Sandy – I know you have attempted to steer me away from gauges in ‘a-GAZ-a-tank’ re volatility due to temperature change, but this French Daniel Bourard seems to use a 7 Bar gauge with out incident…. & yes I also remember your warning about the …..French safety code…………… - oh BTW - how is Kate & the bathroom renovations?
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best regards to those @ [Bixhead] & you both – Derek
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PS – sorry about the distortion in the .jpg – the Melbourne F1 is on today so must be earth vibrations from 560 miles away………………
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Hi Derek, hi PD's
It is nice to hear from you Derek :) . What about myself - my 'project' is movin' ahead too but a bit slow. I hope the next week there will be some updates on it somehow.
Please, explain (as a chief engineer :wink: ) what is the reason to use this twin gas tank?
Also it will be very interesting to know about the ACS progress with their new slide valve engines. I guess they promised to show us something even in January :roll: ...
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Hi PD's - Engine man asks please, explain "what is the reason to use this twin gas tank?" - my :idea: thinking is that I will get approx 30 minutes run time on one filling of water & gas so if I had twice the gas capacity it would eliminate the need to remove the single gas tank for a refill..... - just an idea :?: :?: - Derek
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Hi Derek-
Your answer is rather evident and expected :) Upto my engineerig experience it is not a good thing to use 'twins'. For sure it is possible but tricky. If I were you I'd better try to find a bigger one <gas tank> or implement a standard small gas canister with adaptor.
I guess you can purchase a big CHEDDAR tank from Marten, Howes&Baylis or try Mr.Hemmen's big new one.
Cheers,
Engineman
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Thanks Engineman & hi PD's - I think it best to put the thoughts of a twin tank on the BACKBURNER - if I have to stop for water & without a check valve & hand pump I need 30 minutes to vent & cool the boiler so may as well use this time to remove & refil the refil the 'GAZattack' out of the vessel so as not to get a big :boom as I have been warned could result if the tank were re-filled in the vessel :rant
I haven't asked ACS on the progress of the slide valve engines, but Sandy has mentioned he is very busy & has also experienced a machining center glitch adding to delays :offtopic ....... Derek
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Was that your decoy model Derek?
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Hi Derek-
As you don't want to use feed pump I want to recommend you to add any sort of gas attenuator onto your steam plant. In some cases this simple thing can seriously help to save boiler water and gas. To save your time for water refilling of the boiler you can use the check valve and removable water handpump.
Cheers,
Engineman
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Hi PD’s & yes Sean that was my SOS [stand off scale] of PS Decoy – please remember in the original YAHOO PD site back five years ago, I explained that I drew the plans for my PS Decoy from two 2” x 2” photographs from one our great little OZ books……..& hence many dimensional errors resulted…….but she [PS Decoy] keeps me happy….like …. just wondering how in the bloo…..dy heck can I position the JMC3H & still get servo attachments to work………….. regards Derek
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From: thewharfonline [mailto:livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, 3 April 2006 8:45 PM
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk
Subject: RE: Full Steam Ahead!
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Was that your decoy model Derek?
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From: Derek Warner [mailto:dlwarner@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2006 12:43 AM
To: 'Philip Handcock'
Cc: admin@paddleducks.co.uk; ACSengineering
Subject: Twin Gas tanks.
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Hi & thanks Phil for the response –Â in my original request I listed both top & bottom banjo connections between tanks – assumed as one filling port only & possibly a tapping for a pressure gauge – I understand our respected PD members Sandy from ACS &Â ENGINEMAN from Zengreb questions/concerns, however with both top & bottom cross connection as shown in the French builders work [Daniel Bourard] I think that all will be OK
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So cross connection between tanks by banjo fittings on both upper & lower planes [+ one filling port + one discharge valve + one gauge port on the upper plane], naturally the interconnecting mounting foot plate would need to be negative or deeper than the cross connection 1/8” tube
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I measure my GAS tank S/No 473 as 2” diameter x 5.056” overall & the mounting foot print 2.34” wide – if the two tanks had say 3/16” clearance shell to shell would be fine – the current foot mounting protrusion from the shell appears to be ¼” so this would be OK in a twin assembly
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Eddy – firstly, could you repost this back to PD’s & you may wish to review & consider www.forest-classics.co.uk (http://www.forest-classics.co.uk) , but for my 2 & 6 pence worth I think we could add it to our PD links – thanks - Derek
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From: Philip Handcock [mailto:philanddee@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, 7 April 2006 6:01 PM
To: dlwarner@bigpond.net.au
Subject: Twin Gas tanks.
Â
Hello Derek, Many apoligies for the delay in replying to you. We can build a twin tank setup with 4mm compression fitting silver soldered in the centre top of each for linking the tanks. Can you please clarify weather you want the tanks cross connected on the bottom and what kind of mounting you require on the tanks. We will then give you a quote. best regards Phil.
www.forest-classics.co.uk (http://www.forest-classics.co.uk) The UK's Number One Mamod Dealer
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From: Engineman [mailto:livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, 3 April 2006 9:57 PM
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk
Subject: RE: Full Steam Ahead!
Â
Hi Derek-
As you don't want to use feed pump I want to recommend you to add any sort of gas attenuator onto your steam plant. In some cases this simple thing can seriously help to save boiler water and gas. To save your time for water refilling of the boiler you can use the check valve and removable water handpump.
Cheers,
Engineman
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New pieces and bits to come...
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Looking pretty good Enginman :kewl & a real credit to you - a bit difficult to tell, but you appear to have used more steel in componentry than other propriety built engines eg., Anton, JMC & Maxwell Hemmens who seem to favour bronze or brass... how will you keep the non painted? [crank shaft valve slide spindles]........... from corrosion? - again I think that some of the proprietry manufacturers may use a chemical blackening
I see the cylinder caps are finished nicely with hex studs & nuts over slotted head screws [as in my JMC 3H] - do you use BA fastners or is there a metric [Contential] type version of model engineer threads? - as Sandy says keep up the good work - regards Derek
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Hi PD’s & sorry Engineman – I’d best correct myself here as the cylinder covers & slide valve covers are retained by hex bolts – the engine block supporting columns stubs are secured are screwed & secured by hex nuts…… all still superb anyway - Derek
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From: derekwarner_decoy [mailto:livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, 10 April 2006 4:19 PM
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk
Subject: RE: Full Steam Ahead!
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Looking pretty good Enginman (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/poster_kewlpics.gif)& a real credit to you - a bit difficult to tell, but you appear to have used more steel in componentry than other propriety built engines eg., Anton, JMC & Maxwell Hemmens who seem to favour bronze or brass... how will you keep the non painted? [crank shaft valve slide spindles]........... from corrosion? - again I think that some of the proprietry manufacturers may use a chemical blackening
I see the cylinder caps are finished nicely with hex studs & nuts over slotted head screws [as in my JMC 3H] - do you use BA fastners or is there a metric [Contential] type version of model engineer threads? - as Sandy says keep up the good work - regards Derek
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Hi Derek,
Thank you for the copmpliments. I guess you're not right yet - brass is a preference of ANTON or JMC (not so evident thou) but not the only choice for John Hemmens or Stuart. It is better to have wearing faces made of steel and bronze (phosphore bronze is the best one) rather than brass to brass-that's the main idea. I'm not afraid of corrosion because all of the steel parts of my engine are made from nickel (stainless) steel :) . It is rather expensive way - but my engine is not a serial one.
What about nuts'n'bolts and other fittings etc. - I use mostly metric standard (even I admire Imperial scale).
How the progress with your's pretty handsome PS DECOY is coming along? 8)
Cheers,
Engineman
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Hi PD’s – I have a continuing issue with the mechanical strength of the reversing gear linkage shaft & the securing of it in my JMC 3H engine – the first snap shows my engine linkage with the hex allen key in the 2 mm diameter hollow pointed grub screw that locks the arm to the shaft, but the 2 mm diameter shaft has an unsupported length of 29 mm – when I questioned the shaft deflection & resultant stripped thread with JMC on receipt, the only result was a posted envelope with a new linkage arm & 3 x additional HPGS but not a written word – the engine is superb – it’s just the language bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I am now using a servo slowdown set to 5 seconds to actuate the reversing function, but still get shaft deflection which results in incomplete reversing valve movement and after a short number of actuations the HPGS is loose despite Loctite primer & a drop of 243 Stud Lock– interestingly when we view the second snap of a similar JMC sized vertical engine we see the reversing gear shaft supported by a center journal
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I have considered mechanically locking by soldering a 5/32 “ square brass tube filled & soldered with a 1/8†diameter brass rod between the two outboard linkages arms and back to the center control linkage arm so that the new cross member would accept the greater portion of the rotary torque movement….. any thoughts appreciated – Derek
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Oh PS ………watch out for that Easter bunny……………………
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There appears to be two problems to me Derek - The shaft is unsupported so it flexes as the arm moves to engage the reverse mechanism, and secondly the shaft is so thin that it will also twist under load.
Personally I'd look at making an extra centre support to stop the flexing, and also see how easy it would be to increase the shaft diameter to stop twisting.
I'm certainly not an engineer, but that's my suggestion for what it's worth! :-)
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Hi PD’s & thanks Eddy – if I think of the JMC3H in the scale @ 1:25 in soft conversion we find – [sometimes thinking in inches†+ parts there of is easier for mature age PD members that were trained in Christian denominations & not those metric units………………….]
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the 10 mm bore x 10 mm stroke engine = an actual 10†bore x 10†stroke
the 4 mm output shaft = an actual 4†diameter output shaft
the 2 mm reversing gear shaft = an actual 2†diameter shaft
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A little rule of thumb nail dipped in tar engineering calculation would suggest that the relationship of 10:4:2 on diameter is totally acceptable, so I must question the flexural moment created by original design in the reversing gear shaft due to mounting centers ………………. – as mentioned off line to Sandy earlier this evening, ‘I would not give ten dead rats, slugs or snails – even if they were blessed with garlic sauce’ to an engine manufacturer who ignores questions from the other side of the world after BANQUEING my hard earned AUD of + $1015.00……….disgruntled Derek in OZ
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From: Eddy Matthews [mailto:livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, 14 April 2006 6:58 PM
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>
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There appears to be two problems to me Derek -……………………………………Regards Eddy
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>
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Eddy is absolutely right, Derek. You need to make some sort of support brackets to fight this problem. Very interesting what do JMC thinking about as the vertical 'versions' have more or less proper design?
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Hi PD’s – I have a continuing issue with the mechanical strength of the reversing gear linkage shaft & the securing of it in my JMC 3H engine – the first snap shows my engine linkage with the hex allen key in the 2 mm diameter hollow pointed grub screw that locks the arm to the shaft, but the 2 mm diameter shaft has an unsupported length of 29 mm – when I questioned the shaft deflection & resultant stripped thread with JMC on receipt, the only result was a posted envelope with a new linkage arm & 3 x additional HPGS but not a written word – the engine is superb – it’s just the language bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Â
I am now using a servo slowdown set to 5 seconds to actuate the reversing function, but still get shaft deflection which results in incomplete reversing valve movement and after a short number of actuations the HPGS is loose despite Loctite primer & a drop of 243 Stud Lock– interestingly when we view the second snap of a similar JMC sized vertical engine we see the reversing gear shaft supported by a center journal
Â
I have considered mechanically locking by soldering a 5/32 “ square brass tube filled & soldered with a 1/8†diameter brass rod between the two outboard linkages arms and back to the center control linkage arm so that the new cross member would accept the greater portion of the rotary torque movement….. any thoughts appreciated – Derek
Â
Oh PS ………watch out for that Easter bunny……………………
Â
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Hi PD's....say's a small voice form the distant past....I thought I had better post something, or that DW will start claiming FINE MONEY :roll: :shock: :(
I am in total agrrement with both Eddy and Engineman on this one Derek, and I am somewhat taken aback ny JMC's apparent lack of interest on this.
I would also add, Derek, that there is a third problem....nameley, the shaft (Known as a Weighshaft) is also un-restrained from side ways movement on your engine, unlike the vertical version, which will put a lot of strain on the 'LIFTING LINKS'...the small arms that connect to the Stephensons link, by allowing them to shift sideways, which in turn can cause these to wear very rapidly.
I attach a rough sketch of a possible solution, which will support the thin shaft along it's length and also prevent any undue sideways movement.
I realise that this may require a bit of modification to the existing 'Weighshaft' supports, but I believe that something along these lines is going to be required.
If I can be of any help in making up these modified bits, then just shout.
Engineman.....You can be justly proud of your latest engine....superb.
Ok...so now I have been demoted to keel barnacle I will sign off.
More soon.
Best Regards.
Sandy
PS....I have spent all day fitting my re-ground lathe spindle and new bearings....you will be pleased to hear that it is now all up and running again....so now I play CATCH UP.... :D :D :D :clap
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Great to see you back Sandy!
And even better that you agree with my comments - gee a real engineer agreed with me for once! :-) But now I have a slight problem...
My head is now so large that I cannot get through the door to go to bed!
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:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :D
I suppose you will just have to stay up all night then.... :hehe :hehe :music :shoot
All the best.
Sandy.
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Hey thanks Engineman, Sandy & Eddy - your collective comments gives me food for thought - so do French bronze bits taste best with Garlic or do you think a dash of Tartare sauce would be OK as all this is smelling a bit FISHY to me :rant
It is the flexural issue that concerns - I cannot detect any longitudinal 'weighshaft' float [even with a dial indicator] & attribute this to the four sealed ball bearings supporting the crankshaft journals & eccentrics....
I checked the Anton site last night & their verticals appear to have well supported weighshafts but of larger diameter than my JM... :spam ...C - ...... - regards Derek :?
Oh BTW1 Sandy - nice :evil: term 'Gallows Brackets' - did they get their.... you know..name from the supporting structure that supported a piece of rope & a noose :?:
Oh BTW2 Sandy - I am glad the lathe is back in operation, so this means you can get back & do some real work with another stock order of those Black Japaned beauties [ASP] ??? engines :beer
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Hi gents!
Nice to hear from you again Sandy and thanks for your compliments. Upto my mind it is nothing to be proud about - what you can see is only a set of nice shiny pieces and that's it. It is not an engine as it was never steamed yet :wink: . For sure I'll do my best to put it in a good shape to make it move'n'puff :) .
I have a prob with proper papers for pressure vessels :cry: So I guess, Sandy we'll have a special talk about a special boiler to fit all the <censored> standards as I have a lot of plans in mind for my boat and my engine. Anyways, looking for an extra discount instead of extra charge :D
Cheers,
Engineman
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Hi PD's - I spent an hour using an industrial microscope viewing the M2 diameter x 2mm long HPGS that keep failing to lock the weighshaft reversing arm - turns out that the internal 'inhex' 0.9mm AF is collapsed or split open across the six points - so at least I understand the root cause of the weighshaft to lever unlocking 8) - as I mentioned JMC posted out three replacement HPGS but have decided not to use them
Plan now is to reinforce/reduce the loading to the weighshaft supporting journals in a manner 'similar' :sorry :shhh to that recommended [Sandy/Engineman/Eddy] but also to use M2 socket head cap screws to replace the three installed hollow pointed grub screws in the reversing linkages..................
So the head of a SHCS may not be in visual keeping with a 19 the century steam engine, but neither are the slotted cheese head metric screws holding the engine together....... this plan does make me a little more :) - Derek
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At last the TB project got a move :) Hopefully there will be more interesting photos soon...
Cheers,
Engineman
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I'm glad you've got back to the TB Engineman, really looking forward to seeing it progress.....
I was at a model engineering show earlier today, and there was a magnificent model of Turbinia on display, complete with steam turbine! A true work of art, but sadly I didn't have a camera with me! :(
Regards
Eddy
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I was at a model engineering show earlier today, and there was a magnificent model of Turbinia on display, complete with steam turbine! A true work of art, but sadly I didn't have a camera with me! :(
Regards
Eddy
Nice to hear from you Eddy!
Is it a Harrogate engineering show or another one? It is really a pity that you did not get your camera with you...
Cheers,
Engineman
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Yes, at the Harrogate show Engineman - Turbinia has always been one of my favourite ships, aand one day I might just get around to modelling her?
Regards
Eddy
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Yes, at the Harrogate show Engineman - Turbinia has always been one of my favourite ships, aand one day I might just get around to modelling her?
Regards
Eddy
Modelling TURBINIA - that shall be a tricky build ;) I am experiencing a lack of displacement even with my 65 tons to scale 1/24...
Anyways, may be somebody from PD's had a possibility to visit Harrogate Show with camera? TURBINIA model with live steam turbine - that looks pretty intiguing...
Cheers,
Engineman
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A couple of photos of the turbine unit in Turbinia - I hope to get some more images later today/tomorrow....
Regards
Eddy
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Goodness PD's....I had no idea of her chequered build history,........ :hammer ...so it looks as though the model @ the Harrogate show is the hybred version ...... single turbine but converted to 3 prop shafts...still an engineering challange by no stretch of the imagination......Derek
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Designed by Charles Parsons in 1894, TURBINIA was an experimental craft intended to demonstrate the potential of the successful steam turbines already being produced by his company to drive generators for ship propulsion. TURBINIA had a long narrow hull form (100ft x 9ft) and, powered by a single 1000hp steam turbine, was expected to achieve 30 knots or more. TURBINIA was launched on 2 August 1894 and her trials started on 14 November 1894. Initial results were very disappointing as she could only reach 19.75 knots. The problem was traced to the propeller which was not capable of performing efficiently at 2000 rpm. Two years intensive work followed, during which the effects of cavitation on high speed propellers were discovered and eventually overcome.
Rebuilt and now fitted with three steam turbines, each one driving a shaft fitted with three propellers, TURBINIA achieved 29.6 knots in December 1896 and further improvements gave 32.76 knots in April 1897. She was then the fastest vessel in the world.
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That turbine looks a nice neat conversion of two commercially available 'toy' turbines, put nose to nose with a collector chamber to gather up the exhaust which normally is discharged to atmosphere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfx-Y71_Ik
I would like to see it put thru its paces on the water, as those turbines have very limited power, especially once the exhaust is restricted by the collector.
Maybe he has come up with a great method to achieve what people have been dreaming about for many years, but I very much doubt it.
What is needed is a turbine that will reach full shaft power almost instantly (within say 4 or 5 seconds), and although that one would most probably get there eventually, it won't have the 'guts' to do it straight away.
I have been playing about with turbines for a while now, and have had a certain amount of success, and a lot of information has been gathered from my two prototypes, and if ever I get my final version built, I think I will have cracked it in producing a cheap and easy to make powerful turbine for model boats.
You can build them a lot more complex and get them to work, but making them and keeping the costs down is another thing.
My latest monster cost less than £20 in raw materials, and could easily be knocked up in a week of spare time working. That pair of Jensons have cost him a very lot more than that, maybe up to 10 times that price. I am looking at one about half the size of my latest, and because of the smaller rotor size and mass will reach full speed in just over 3 seconds at 35 to 40 psi. Running at around 40K rpm, that will be reduced down with a 10 to 1 box to give a max shaft speed of 4K rpm. Just got to find some nice reasonably priced stainless bearings that will hold that speed continuously + 100% safety range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amm89H65IFo
John
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A few more photos of Turbinia....
Regards
Eddy
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The science museum has a couple of turbine yachts (Turbinia and Tarantula) in 1/32 scale, there's quite a large display about Turbinia... http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?txtkeys1=Turbine+Yachts ... unfortunately not many pictures on the site (and some of them seem to be dead links) but as it happens, I'm going there myself in about half an hour so I'll probably take a few photos... :)
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Hi PD's ....thanks Eddy for the additional snaps........& after reading the constructive comments from 'bogstandard'......I also see
a) soft soldered joints & unlagged HP steam inlet's
b) plastic reinforced belt drive to both turbine output shafts ......etc
So...if I were a visitor to to that same Harrogate show ....with near ZERO knowledge of vessels I would have been very impressed by the bright & shiny copper bits fo the model of Turbinia on display.........
MOST important.......Engineman.....finish the Vosper Thornycroft ......leave this TB to the future :beer .....Derek
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I have to agree with you Derek, he is trying to make it look a lot more complicated than it should be, maybe just someone who hasn't much of a clue about steam systems, with a fetish for metal polish and wasting money.
There is way too much of it about nowadays, but I suppose it takes all sorts.
Show it on the water doing it's thing, then maybe a believer here, but as it is, just a few shiny bits of nothing much, trying to impress people who don't know any better.
Bogs
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First of all - thank you very much Eddy for the photos. You've just satisfied my interest as well as the discussion has proved my doubts...
MOST important.......Engineman.....finish the Vosper Thornycroft ......leave this TB to the future :beer .....Derek
Don't worry Derek - my interest for TURBINIA model has absolutely engineering grounds :) I am not a big fan of multishafted vessels and gearboxes... Highly detailed compound recips - that's my subject of interest (for sure together with early 'turtlebacks')...
One <important> remark - 'Vosper Thornycroft' appeared much much later (~ 60 years or so) than 'John Thornycroft & Sons Shipbuilding Co, Chiswick' was founded...
Cheers,
Engineman
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Yet more photos.... These show a few of the images that attracted me to the model - It's superb finish!
I have to be honest and say that when it comes to steam power it's all a black art to me, so I wouldn't know a good steamer from a heap of junk!!
Regards
Eddy
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The last few photos of Turbinia...
Regards
Eddy
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Oh, I forgot to mention that all the photos come from Peter Henshaw, so my sincere thanks to him for taking the time and trouble to send them!
Eddy
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I think that the builder of that Turbinia has done a cracking job, and I take my hat off to him.
You build what you can with the resources you have available. If he spent a bit on a couple of Jensen turbines, then I expect that was the best route to his goal, another might have been to buy a lathe, mill & workshop and then spend a few years learning to use them, but he may not have the time for that.
Until the time comes when the Bogstandard turbine is made (which, without doubt has the best possible chance of achieving the holy grail of model marine turbine power IMHO - my money's on the table John :gift), then it makes me happy to see any progress or ideas in the field. I too would really like to see it put through it's paces on the water. The Turbinia is a stunning boat, and any turbine powered movement on water would constitute a success given the displacement issues of such a sleek hull.
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....I'll probably take a few photos... :)
Ever gone out with your camera only to find you didn't recharge the battery last time you used it.... >:(
Maybe next weekend
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OK, here's a pic of the science museum model and a closeup of the cut away in the hull showing the 'triple expansion' turbines within....and a diagram of the engines!
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...they also have what is described as 'turbinia's original engine' it says the boat was originally built with a single turbine and prop shaft but performance was disappointing so the arrangement shown in the model was built and installed.... one side of the engine is cut away and replaced with perspex to display the working parts within!
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No thanks Jim, this was a considered response to both bogstandard and decoy. Engineering challenges to a colleagues work should, in this case use arguments based on thermodynamic calculations not personal insults.
I have derived a great deal of enjoyment and satisfaction from this Turbinia model, and could not leave this discouraging behaviour unchallenged.
On a final note, thankyou to those who have given me encouragement in this discussion, it is very much appreciated.
Dave
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At last the TB project got a move :) Hopefully there will be more interesting photos soon...
The progress is coming along pretty slow... but it is coming along.
The hull is ready and waiting for proper finish...the prop is completed and polished.
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The 2 engines on the picture below- self made or can they be bought anywhere as kit?
Andy
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Hi PD's.....Andy....the engine to the left is from [Nick] Monahan Models http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=links;sa=visit;id=51 ...I am unsure of the engine to the lower right .....Derek :coffee
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...I am unsure of the engine to the lower right .....Derek :coffee
The engine to the lower right is of my own design. You can find some pictures of it at the very beginning of this topic. The second one - Derek is absolutely right - my black SPARROW engine from Nick Monahan. This is available commercially as a RTR unit.
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The hull plating belts are finished...
(http://s45.radikal.ru/i110/1003/93/f0a7d50e2ae0t.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/s45.radikal.ru/i110/1003/93/f0a7d50e2ae0.jpg.html)
(http://i038.radikal.ru/1003/45/804ebb4129c0t.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/i038.radikal.ru/1003/45/804ebb4129c0.jpg.html)
(http://s45.radikal.ru/i109/1003/d7/dc651e03dc76t.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/s45.radikal.ru/i109/1003/d7/dc651e03dc76.jpg.html)
(http://s12.radikal.ru/i185/1003/2a/25e13bf87802t.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/s12.radikal.ru/i185/1003/2a/25e13bf87802.jpg.html)
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Some more progress on the build...