Paddleducks

General => Chat & Off Topic Stuff => Topic started by: Eddy Matthews on December 17, 2005, 10:41:17 AM

Title: tug towing
Post by: Eddy Matthews on December 17, 2005, 10:41:17 AM

I was just sitting here wondering if there was any paddlewheel tug that would be suitable to use in tug towing competitions?

I can't imagine anything that would be really suitable, but wondered if anyone had tried it or given it some serious thought? It would certainly be an unusual sight if there was something suitable (at least in the UK), so has anyone got any ideas/suggestions?

Title: Tug towing
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 17, 2005, 01:05:24 PM

Hi Eddy,
Many years ago John B. and I entered a regatta that had tug towing, we both had two models with us John had MAX (a Alligator warping tug) and Chipmunk (a little Linberg tug), I had a motofloat (a six inch square box with a karts nozzle on the bottom, it was nick named the floating outhouse, and was notorious for lack of directional control) I also had one of the linberg tug. We decided that the linberg tugs were two small ( we have since learned different), so we entered the Motofloat and Max.
We fixed the motofloat at the Stern of the tow and Max at the Bow, and away we went. The Motofloat now had Six Feet of tow infront of it, and turned itself into a 6' 6" ship which would run straight as an arrow, with John's Max helping with the tight docking and turning we came in second place. Were not the Director class tugs sidewheelers used for moving aircraft carriers? they should be good for towing.
Regards,
Gerald

Title: tug towing
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on December 17, 2005, 03:13:35 PM

Eddy – back in the old YAHOO days, Toe Boat Joe posted a few messages re the limits or whatever viz a comparison of paddle wheel input HP to propeller input HP & the results etc – from memory low paddle power took a clean sweep, but only to a cut off point where propeller power was ++++++………..reportedly superior  
   
But thinking about reality, who would want to sit “below the sea” [apart from Richard Beatle Starkey] & watch propellers go round & round? -  when we can watch the PS Waverley’s wheels [splash splash] through the mist [as she goes around the bend] whilst having a cup of tea & Vegemite sandwich with the ACS staff at 9.45 AM most mornings!! – Derek  
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””  
         
 
From: Eddy Matthews [mailto:chat@paddleducks.co.uk]
 Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2005 10:41 AM
 To: chat@paddleducks.co.uk
 Subject: tug towing  
 
   
I was just sitting here wondering if there was any paddlewheel tug that would be suitable to use in tug towing competitions?
 
 I can't imagine anything that would be really suitable, but wondered if anyone had tried it or given it some serious thought? It would certainly be an unusual sight if there was something suitable (at least in the UK), so has anyone got any ideas/suggestions? <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>      
 

 Regards
 Eddy
 
 
 -------------------- m2f --------------------
 
 Exported by Paddleducks Mail System.
 
 http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6177#6177 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6177#6177)
 
 -------------------- m2f --------------------

Title: Hulls for Paddletugs
Post by: Red_Hamish on December 17, 2005, 07:12:02 PM

Hello all, Kingston Mouldings list a "Director Class" Paddletug of which I believe  seven were built. These as correctly identified by Gerald, did not have any modern winches, instead relying on a fixed bollard tow. The link to Kingston Mouldings is http://www.kingstonmouldings.com/products.html#
You never know this might actually catch on with those who are looking for really powerful and manoueverable tugs for our style of competitions.

cheers

Jim

Title: tug towing
Post by: Eddy Matthews on December 17, 2005, 08:49:03 PM

Thanks guys,

The things that I wondered about are - will a paddlewheel driven model have enough thrust to successfully maneouvre a heavy tow? And secondly, stability - Most good screw driven tugs used for towing are around 40" length with a beam of 11-13", I don't know of any paddletug hull with a beam anywhere near that wide, so lateral stability could be a major problem.

The Director class tug would be about the right size length wise at 1:48 scale, but the hull is fairly narrow. We also have the problem of the paddlewheels and sponsons etc hanging outboard of the hull increasing the stability problems further.

Comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated....

Title: tug towing
Post by: towboatjoe on December 18, 2005, 12:34:15 AM

Sounds like a job for a good stern wheeler to me :)

Title: tug towing
Post by: Khephre on December 19, 2005, 08:33:08 AM

Picking up on Joe's comment Eddie, what about the Jean? You have the plans already and she was designed and built for towing.

Tony

Title: tug towing
Post by: Eddy Matthews on December 19, 2005, 08:56:59 AM

Joe & Tony,

I had thought about a sternwheeler, but was concerned about two things - First a sidewheeler would have better maneouverability, and second the height of the towing point on a sternwheeler may be a problem for stability?

Title: It's a push-over
Post by: Red_Hamish on December 20, 2005, 09:17:41 AM

Hello all, Eddy, try and think a bit laterally. With a sternwheeler all you do is lash the bow of the tug to the tow and push! Makes it all too simple I know but still very enjoyable.

cheers

Jim

Title: Tug Towing
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 20, 2005, 09:30:01 AM

Hi Eddy,
If I rememmber correct Tug Towing was done by a team of Two ro more boats, so hock a powerfull sternwheeler to the stern of the tow pore the coals on, and run one or two sidewheelers on the bow for the fine control.
Regards,
Gerald

Title: tug towing
Post by: Eddy Matthews on December 20, 2005, 09:43:56 AM

The problem with lashing a powerful sternwheeler to the tow is the UK tug towing rules - It allows for two or three tugs to maneouvre a tow. With two tugs one is attached by a towline to the front and one to the rear, neither of the tugs are allowed to physically make contact with the vessel being towed.

With three tugs, again two are attached via towlines to the bow and the stern of the vessel being towed, and the third tug runs free - it IS allowed to touch the tow to help push it where needed.

So, because of those rules, lashing a paddler to the stern of the tow would be illegal for competition....

Title: tug towing
Post by: AlistairD on December 20, 2005, 10:46:05 AM

I think that the UK definition of the term "towing"  means, pulling the tow behind the tug, whereas the US definition means pushing  the tow. This is known in the test of the world as using a pusher  tug
 Â 
 Alistair
 

 

Quote

 
Hello all, Eddy, try and think a bit laterally. With a    sternwheeler all you do is lash the bow of the tug to the tow and push! Makes    it all too simple I know but still very    enjoyable.

cheers

Jim


     
enjoy the world of Radio Control Model Boating at www.paddleducks.co.uk (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk)    and www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org.uk (http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org.uk)


-------------------- m2f    --------------------

Exported by Paddleducks Mail System.

http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6220#6220 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6220#6220)

--------------------    m2f --------------------

Title: tug towing
Post by: towboatjoe on December 20, 2005, 01:50:17 PM

That's true when you're talking about inland tugs. There are some coastal type tugs around the lower Mississippi River that have added push knees. On the upper Mississippi River sometimes a big towboat will push one barge on the head to break ice and pull other barges behind like a regular tug. You'll notice photos of some towboats designed for this use for they have small push knees on the stern. We call them "tow knees".

The legal name is push boat, but river people have always called them towboats because since the early times of log rafts they've been called tows (I guess because a lot of times they were towed by horse and mule teams along the bank) so a powered vessel used to move a tow is a tow boat.

Title: On the point of towing comp rules
Post by: Red_Hamish on December 21, 2005, 10:20:43 AM

Hello all, I believe that for the 2006 competition season there will be a class of tug-towing where a single pusher tug willl be allowed to navigate the standard course used and be scored accordingly. Mobile Marine Models have for this purpose included within their hull range a versatile Euro tug which can be utilised as a conventional tug or a pusher tug. This will surely muddy the waters  :lol:

cheers

Jim

Title: Re: On the point of towing comp rules
Post by: Eddy Matthews on December 21, 2005, 10:24:07 AM

Quote from: "Red_Hamish"

Hello all, I believe that for the 2006 competition season there will be a class of tug-towing where a single pusher tug willl be allowed to navigate the standard course used and be scored accordingly.
Jim

Really? Are there any written rules available for this Jim? It certainly sounds interesting and would (at first glance) allow for the use of a sternwheel pusher tug/towboat.

Title: tug towing
Post by: towboatjoe on December 21, 2005, 11:47:51 AM

We've had towing courses before and even tug-of-war. All I can say is never go up against Tom O'Dell of St. Louis, Missouri and his ATLAS. He's got a secret drive system and will certain to pull you under when tugging against him. It normally runs at 12 volt, but when you think you're getting the best of him, he's got a switch that throws 18 to 24 volts to the motor.

Most courses contained a combination of things that may be changed for the next person running the course so they will not know what to expect. There is running straight out to a certain distance and turn port or starboard for a certain distance, a figure 8, backing in a straight line fora specified distance, docking by pulling into a slip and coming along side, and navigating between set bouys.

It gets more interesting when you've got barges. How many barges do you want to try and run through a course? That ought to add extra points. I like making parallel bars about five feet long to act a lock and have a boat enter a lock, stop for a specified time and pull out. Sometimes I push a midstream fuel flat with a small boat and come along side other boats like I'm refueling them.

Title: tug towing
Post by: Eddy Matthews on December 22, 2005, 08:52:36 AM

Well I've looked at every UK built paddletug I can think of and haven't managed to find one with the wide beam I'm looking for. So what about the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or elsewhere?

Do any of our members in those countries know of a wide beamed sidewheel paddletug that I could build and successfully use in tug towing events?

Virtually all countries must have operated sidewheel paddletugs at some time in the past, so any help would be appreciated....

Title: tug towing
Post by: towboatjoe on December 22, 2005, 09:49:08 AM

I'll do some searching on my end. I do remember the City of Catlettsburg ex-SUNCO A4 that was built in 1946 and was originally built with caterpillar blades on a chain drive on each side.  Later it was converted to side wheels and renamed Harbot Point. In the late "40s it was converted to three Harbormaster outdrives. I was aboard the vessel the day before it sank. I think it was around 1988. It was sold to Zubik towing after raised and I think they scrapped it. It was 93 feet x 33 feet
here's a photo I took of her the day they raised her.

Title: tug towing
Post by: Eddy Matthews on December 22, 2005, 09:59:47 AM

That sounds promising Joe - at 93 feet by 33 feet it's exactly the sort of length/beam ratio I'm looking for.

Title: tug towing
Post by: towboatjoe on December 22, 2005, 10:07:26 AM

Take a look at this link

http://www.nps.gov/safr/local/eppie.html

Title: How not to run a tow
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 23, 2005, 08:43:20 AM

Hi All,
I had this link forwarded to me by two different persons and thought I should share it with the group.
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~soldier/towboat.htm
Joe is that how they run tows down your way?
Regards,
Gerald

Title: tug towing
Post by: towboatjoe on December 23, 2005, 01:13:53 PM

Boy, those photos sure get around. I've been aboard that boat. It used to be the Cahaba at the time of that mishap. My friend Nelson Jones at Madison Coal & Supply owns that vessel now. It's been renamed Capt. Ed Harris. Here's a photo of her I took back in April this year. Here's some info on the boat....

Twin screw built 1972 by Halter marine Services, lockport, LA. 85 x 30 repowered 2002 Caterpillar 3512 diesels 2400hp.

Title: tug towing
Post by: towboatjoe on December 23, 2005, 01:23:23 PM

Here's an ad that had the Sunco A4 on it. Also heres a photo of the catepillar drive which didn't last long till it was converted to  side wheels. She looks strange in the bow because they were also experimenting with a pivoting tow knee. Needless to say that didn't last long either.

Title: tug towing
Post by: towboatjoe on December 23, 2005, 01:35:43 PM

Thought you might like to see the console of the City of Catlettsburg. She had three little joysticks, one for each Harbormaster outdrive. The guys that used to pilot her said it was a bitch to catch on to operating her, but once you learned the tricks they didn't want to go back to conventional boats.

Eddy, there are no photos of her as a side wheeler and the ad of the Sunco is the only photo I've seen of her original design. I remember seeing a 1:96 scale model of the Sunco in Vicksburg, Mississippi. I might try to contact lamar Roberts the museum cureator and see if he can track down any plans or what the guy used to build it.