Paddleducks
Other Marine Models => Live steam => Topic started by: steamboatmodel on November 13, 2005, 01:56:17 PM
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Hi PDs,
This is a question for all but mostly Sandy, does any one have any experience in building Yarrow style Boiler, or Scott Marine types :?:
Regards,
Gerald
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Hi PD's - Gerald, I am sure that our "ASTEEMED" :nah resident steam technical officer will respond, but I think both the Yarrow & Scotch versions of boilers are beyond the design calculations of model steam
The former relies on a multi drum closed loop of water+heat=steam>work>condensing=water, then repeat the process
I think the latter relies on really, really HOT steam to do the work
The Stuart Turner range have a 'FLASH' steam driven high speed piston engine & PJ posted a question on FLASH steam a few weeks ago
So possibly 'Scotch, Yarrow & flash' are all interelated - thank goodness my ACS boiler is rated to 45 PSI only
In reflection, I think Tony with his 1/10 scale crew to shovel coal into boiler is the best bet - being NO gas needed :D :D - Derek
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Hi PDs,
This is a question for all but mostly Sandy, does any one have any experience in building Yarrow style Boiler, or Scott Marine types :?:
Regards,
Gerald
:D :D :D :news
Hi PD's....Gerald....the answer here is yes, I have made both types in the past, however, I feel that a true Yarrow type is a lot more tricky to get right, due to the very high number of water tubes involved.
I have a design for a SCOTT water tube boiler, based on an original design by K.N.Harris, ACSHBHR-S of which I have now made 3 to special order, with a possible 4th on the cards from a very good customer in NZ, and is quite capable of keeping a 1" bore and stroke twin steam engine happy.
This type of boiler is an excellent compromise of all the issues between steam generation capability and complexity of structure and is an excellent boiler for model steamboat use. It has the advantage of high conversion rate (steam produced for heated surface area) and is a far easier boiler to build than the Yarrow.
It also has an advantage in that it does not require such a tall funnel as does the Yarrow and is more compact in it's main casing.
I believe our Derek :respect :respect2 was referring to a SCOTCH marine boiler, which is a return flue type, much used by commercial shipping, as was the Yarrow, however, he is excused this mistake since the SCOTT is not so very well known and it is an understandable error....NO PROBLEM DEREK...I also made the same mistake before I had seen the SCOTT design. :( :(
I attach a GA drawing of the SCOTT water tube boiler for the benefit of all.
:ohno :sob :hmmm
The down sides of this type of boiler are (a) the need to provide a constant water feed (the main barrel is relatively small, and the steaming rate very high) so a water pump is a must, and (b) of course the cost of such beasts. A boiler of this type will unfortunately set you back around £550.00 + shipping costs.
:sob :hmmm :shoot
Best regards.
Sandy
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Goodness PD’s – if this isn’t taking coal to Newcastle! – now we have a Scott talking about a Scott boiler – however saying this I think I had beta stick to boiling the billly with eucalyptus twigs instead of commenting on issues obviously beyond my mental comprehension – sorry - Derek (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif)(http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif)(http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif)(http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/goodnews.gif)
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http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5933#5933 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5933#5933)
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Goodness PD’s – if this isn’t taking coal to Newcastle! – now we have a Scott talking about a Scott boiler – however saying this I think I had beta stick to boiling the billly with eucalyptus twigs instead of commenting on issues obviously beyond my mental comprehension – sorry - Derek
:bravo :respect :respect2
Hi PD's....Derek, you have absolutely nothing to apologies for my friend, and I will add, for the record, that your understanding of steam related topics is, generally, very high.
The Scott water tube boiler, so named after it's original designer 'Mr David Scott' is one of the more obscure, and as such, less well known types.
It was developed in the early 1900's, as a high rate steam producer, long before the coming of Flash steam.
I only came across the design concept about 10 or 11 years ago, whilst looking up something else. Subsequently I came across the design for a version of this type, in a book by K.N.Harris and decided to build one just to see how good it was, and it turned out to be much better than I expected, albeit, this original was fired with a blowtorch type burner.
Horrid, noisy thing. :( :( :nose
I was so impressed with it, especially with the much easier construction, when compared to the Yarrow boiler, with it's 3 drums and large array of water tubes, that I refined some of the features, to include a ceramic burner and to improve the build, and this is the design I attached in my last post, and is now my ACSHBHR-S horizontal boiler, high rate special. Only built to special order and although the drawing states 90 psi max working pressure, which is high enough for most model ship use, this can be extended up to 150 psi without design change.
From a model steamboat point of view, the Scott type has a distinct advantage over the Yarrow, in that the overall height and width of the main casing are much reduced, thus lowering the C of G and requiring less beam width, and is an easy boiler to get into service whilst in a model...one things for certain...It is very easy to light the burner... :hehe :music :oops :sorry ....
as it has a row of air inlet holes along the bottom of each side of the main casing, through which you can insert the fuse..... :? Er...match.
The Yarrow type, in a similar scale, is both a good bit taller, and with a very tall funnel, and also broader, with obvious implications on C of G etc, and usually needs the assistance of a blower (forced draught up the funnel) to draw the fire/combustion gasses whilst raising steam.
From a steam raising viewpoint, I must admit that the Yarrow (in larger sizes) probably has the edge on steam production rate (providing sufficient water tubes are employed, typically 30 or 40 are employed), however, in the smaller scale of boilers we employ in our model ships this becomes a problem, as the water tubes must be above a minimum 3/16" ID to work efficiently, any smaller and the bore is to small for efficient water circulation, due to surface friction, turbulation etc (unfortunately, you cannot scale physics, nature, or their laws), and tubes of this size spaced very close together are not an easy issue from a build point of view.
To overcome this issue, in the smaller scale versions of the Yarrow, it is usual to use fewer, but larger bore, water tubes, and thus the efficiency factor, and steaming rate is reduced.
At our scale there is little to choose between the two and the Scott is certainly the easier (relatively) to build.
One very big advantage, of both these boiler types, is the ease with which a true superheater and even a feed water heater, may be included, due to the large space available within the outer casing.
As a comparison, Derek and PD's, the Scott boiler design as posted, will generate at least 4 - 5 times as much steam output, in the same time frame, than will the horizontal version of your PS DECOY boiler, and it is only a little larger overall. It does, of course, use just a TAD more gas in doing so....but hey!... 8) :wink:
Hope this sheds a little more light on this type of boiler.
Finally, Derek and PD's, there are a whole host of boiler types out there, some of which are not a lot of use to us in model ships, and a lot which are, or can be used for such, however, there are probably a whole host of others that even I, as a boiler/steam engine maker, have not yet come across, so you never know what is to come.
Perhaps my profession has provided me with a lot more exposure, and hence knowledge in steam related matters, than some other fellow modellers, but certainly not all by a very long chalk, as there are a good number of extremely knowledgable guys out there, and I certainly do not know all the answers and probably never will. The field is just to vast for anyone to know all of it.
Anyone who thinks/say's they do is either a fool or very delusioned.
What I do know will, with great pleasure, be freely passed on to anyone who asks.
:D :D :D :P :P :angel :beer :wink: :wink:
Keep happy
regards all.
Sandy
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Hi PDs,
I have uploaded some shots of the Boiler from my Steam Launch (Sorry its not a Paddler, that one is still in the planing stage), It is my owen design a cross between a Yarrow and a Scott. It has been hydrostatically pressure tested to 90psig and runs at 25psig. I am still trying to get the burner to operate to my satisfaction, but that will be another subject. My question particulary to Sandy is I was told at the Hobby Show by someone who said that they were a Engineer that I should have the two drums on the bottom connected together. But I have never seen this done on a full size Yarrow and have never seen a working model of an Yarrow. What is your opinion?
Regards,
Gerald
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Hi PDs,
I have uploaded some shots of the Boiler from my Steam Launch (Sorry its not a Paddler, that one is still in the planing stage), It is my owen design a cross between a Yarrow and a Scott. It has been hydrostatically pressure tested to 90psig and runs at 25psig. I am still trying to get the burner to operate to my satisfaction, but that will be another subject. My question particulary to Sandy is I was told at the Hobby Show by someone who said that they were a Engineer that I should have the two drums on the bottom connected together. But I have never seen this done on a full size Yarrow and have never seen a working model of an Yarrow. What is your opinion?
Regards,
Gerald
:bravo :clap :bow
Well done Gerald...it is not many modellers who would consider building their own boiler, let alone take on one of the more complex designs...and from the pictures you posted, your has the makings of a very good unit......however, I think you will need to make a few adjustments.
What follows, Gerald, is based purely on my obsevations of your pictures, and in no way is meant as a derogatory statement...rather, I hope you take my comments in the spirit in which they are meant...namely...to assist your path to getting the most from the unit.
I am not in the business of making derogatory comments, other than in fun....that said...YOUR BOILER IS RUBBISH.. :hehe :hehe :music :nose .
:oops ...just kidding.
Seriously though, Gerald, from the pictures you posted a couple of things immediately came to mind, both of which have to do with thermal circulation.
1/ Water circulation.
2/ Combustion gas circulation.
Taking water circulation first..since this is the more obvious...and I believe it was this that your engineer chappie had cottoned on to when he suggested connecting the lower headers together.
If you take a look at the Yarrow diagram (attached) you will see the water circulation path indicated, as are the combustion gass flow paths.
I think the main area for alteration is the water tubes....you do not have enough of them, and those you do have are all (a)in the same place, with respect to the main barrel and (b) I suspect are all the same distance within the main barrel.
You thus have no way of getting a proper thermal circulation going.
Returning to the Yarrow, you will see that the water is rising in the inner sets of tubes (nearest the burner, hence hottest) and the replacement (cooler water) is passing down the outer sets.
On your boiler this second return path is missing, hence your circulation will be very erratic and unpredictable.
Without going into thermal dynamics to deeply, lets just state...materials of different density (hot and cold water) cannot occupy the same space at the same time....(chaos theory might find a way, but the best they have come up with so far is the WARP DRIVE...where matter and anti- matter try to occupy the same space, but only succede in destroying each other), hence your heated water cannot be replaced by cooler water in the same tube.
2/ Combustion gas circulation.....again I refer you to the Yarrow diagram, where you can see that the banks of tubes lie at an angle to the heat source...this permits the hot gasses to pass between the tubes, thus heating more of the exposed surfaces, giving much higher thermal transfer of the heat to the water.
On your boiler, the tubes are vertical and so very little of them is exposed to the direct heat, and since this heat rises straight up, until it meets the bottom of the main barrel, where it will be deflected to the side, the thermal transfer is severely reduced.
Another related issue here, is the fact that both of your sets of tubes are reasonably close together, in effect enclosing the available heat within a small space, which will generate a fair amount of turbulance, especially when you add in the effects of reflected heat (being reflected off of the inner, exposed, sides of the vertical water tubes).
:hmmm :( :D :D :D
Ok.. what can be done....
What follows may sound a bit drastic...but with care...can be achieved.
One thing is for sure... the engineer chappie's idea of connecting the water headers together, albeit in the right direction, will not overcome the thermal circulation problems.
1st.... I suggest that you bend the lower water headers outwards, to increase the spacing, and to get the existing tubes at an angle to the heat source, I am assuming these tubes are made of copper, so this should be reasonable do-able.
2. Add a second row of water tubes, outside the existing ones, and staggered, as shown in the Yarrow cross section A-A. these should connect to the main barrel about 1/2" - 3/4" above the junction level of the existing tubes.
These two modifications will overcome the water circulation problems completely, and will vastly improve the combustion gas flow, and hence the thermal transfer of energy to the water, and may help with your, as yet undisclosed burner issues.(although I have my suspisions).
The steaming rate will be much higher and the fuel consumption, per unit of steam, will be lower.
I appreciate that this may require you to make a new (or modify the existing one) outer casing, but I think the work you have done so far deserves the extra effort, in order to get the best from it.
:news :terrific :great :D :D :D
Ok Gerald, and PD's...enough of the technical BULL***T,.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards.
Sandy.
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Sandy, reading your reply certainly shows just how technical a steam engine and it's related components really are!
I watched a documentary on steam engines the other day, and one of the things that was mentioned was that the Waverleys engines were about 35% efficient - I found that amazing considering that most "so called" modern internal combustion engines are less than 20% efficient!
Since steam engines have been used very little in the last 50 years (if we exclude steam turbines) it makes me wonder just how efficient they could have become with another 50 years of development - The mind boggles!
Another question that sprang to mind - If the Waverleys engines are 35% efficient, and they can now use fuel oil or gas (rather than bulky coal) to fire them, why don't large ships use them? Surely they could save a fortune in fuel costs compared to diesel engines?
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Thanks for the suggestions Sandy, I think I follow it (I can't get my computer to download the pdf's rightnow) When I built the boiler I included five tubes which cross over the flame space (they are visible in some of the end views), plus the boiler was sized originally to fit in the casing of the Wilesco D48 Boiler shell. The narrowness of this constraint is part of the problems with the burner I think. I will try to incorporate the mods you suggest.
Regards,
Gerald
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Hi PD's - when I look at various WEB pages on model boilers/fittings/engines I see red painted/black painted & unpainted unions & elbows [the body of the fittings painted, the fitting nuts are usually left unpainted], however is there a protocol in the model world for colour coding :idea: [red for live steam, black for exhaust steam :?: :?: - Derek
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Fercripesake, Sandy! I'm glad you're on our side.... you and yr non-derogatory remarks! I laughed and laughed until I had to go and change my trousers!
Another fascinating post - just goes to show how much there is to learn about steam, and how much knowledge we've lost in the last 50 years.
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Fercripesake, Sandy! I'm glad you're on our side.... you and yr non-derogatory remarks! I laughed and laughed until I had to go and change my trousers!
Another fascinating post - just goes to show how much there is to learn about stea :nose m, and how much knowledge we've lost in the last 50 years.
:shhh :angel :angel :music :music
Who?...Me?...Derogatory?.....Nah!!.... :hehe :hehe :hehe :hehe :hehe :hehe :hehe :hehe :hehe :music :music
I just tell it as I see it Tony,...far be it for me to critisize anothers very fine efforts...but I will offer advice, when asked, as to possible ways to improve things.
BTW...now you know why I allways wear Brown Corduroy Trousers....it saves rushing to change them... :D :D :hehe :nose
Yes, it can appear a very complex subject...and it most certainly is...and yes, we have lost a lot of knowledge, and Knowledgable people over the past 50 years....this is why I enjoy, in my own modest way, passing on some of my own hard learned knowledge to others.
Keep smiling.
Best regards
Sandy.
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Sandy, being new to the forum and what not, been reading lots of posts about of course live steam and boilers. I have printed in front of me the PDF file of your Scott Water Tube Boiler. Very nice and the photos of it you posted are even nicer. My question is mayby a matter of Canadian English terms being different than yours. You state all joints are "Silver Soldered" ! I have a boiler somewhat similar to yours,,lets call it the "this is the material I have so this is what I made type" but all joints on it have been "Silver Brazed". Is this what you use on the boiler is just silver solder and I over did it with the silver brazing?
Have a great day
Jim
Abbotsford, BC
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:D :D :bravo
Hi Pd's......No I'm not going to post the next part of the saga...so you can all go back to sleep :nah :hehe :hehe
Jim (BC Electric)
First off, welcome to the forum, I am sure you will enjoy, and hopefully join in, the fun and games and the friendly banter that goes on.
Good for you, having a go at a boiler, and just so you know...silver soldering and silver brazing are one and the same...as you say, just different english.
Thanks for the comments on the Scott boiler, much appreciated.
The one shown in the photos has a slightly modified layout to the one you have on PDF, however, this is only with regard to the main steam dome, safety valve and pressure gauge locations, the rest is pretty much the same. The changes were made to suit my customers requirements and don't have any effect on the design as a whole.
I hope this clarifies things for you. :D :D
How about some pictures of your one?. :twisted: :twisted: :wink: :?: :?:
More soon PD's.
Regards to all.
Sandy.
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Sandy, so you know, here in the new world,,,,silver solder, and silver braze are two very different things. silver braze is in the 1200 degree range depending on the rod you use, and most times is done with standard torch set up. Silver solder is mostly done with just a propane hand torch or one gas using mapp in the 800 degree or less range.
More important, do you make these boilers as a busness, mighty fine looking I must say.
Jim
New World
Canada
PS. The long wait after you posted is not that I am slow, just we have a few hundred new students at work now,,all asking where to go,,hmmm and I can't really tell them,,where to go.
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Hi PD's - a bit quiet lately so here goes......one could ask........... what have I done in the past six months?
Â
1) a new SOFT soldered stand for the new Anton GAZ regulator
2) a new SOFT soldered [with COMSOL] gauge siphon assembly in 5/32" OD brass - for the ACS boiler [this was to necessitate to be an OZ straight up & down version as opposed to the Scottish 45 degree versions which were made that way due to too much MALT whisky I think]
Â
3) one could also ask 'why do I use a Taiwanese 8 mm AF ring spanner' to tighten the gauge siphon banjo? - well yes you could ask!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Â
4) interesting point here was, when I 'creamated'Â my previous LOCTITE banjo siphon assembly joint bond I simply lapped the banjo sealing surface faces with 1200 W&D & reassembled & steamed to 45 PSI without leakage???
Â
So three lessons or questions learned last evening................
Â
a) always question a 45 degree Scottish lineÂ
b) never use LOCTITE on any component that cannot be subjected to 500 degrees C to decompose the bond
c) ................................I could only ask the manufacturer?????... if it seals without seals, then why does he supply a packet of different thickness seals??
Â
..........................sorry - I meant annealed copper washers - Derek
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 Â
----- Original Message -----
From: BC Electric (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:44 AM
Subject: RE: Boilers
Sandy, so you know, here in the new world,,,,silver solder...............................................
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8416#8416 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8416#8416)
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The boiler's you make are very nice, and its a known fact you know much more than I do about them. Which includes makeing them and firing them.
I will just keep my comments to myself from now on.
Jim
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:D :D :D :shoot
Hi PD's,
Well now....Jim'...I stand corrected....
Interesting to note that you distinguish between the lower and higher temperature silver solders in this way over there.
I will admit there is more than a little confusion as to what the correct terms should be, and even here in the UK you find reference to both solder and Braze when talking about this subject.
For example: often it is necessary (when SILVER SOLDERING (UK terminology)) to use 2, or more, melting point alloys when building a boiler, starting with the highest melting point alloy and ending with the lowest. This process is often referred to as STEP BRAZING, however, all the alloys used would be within the range 600 - 800 degC. and would themselves normally be referred to as silver solder. :? :thinking :sob
Brazing, on the other hand, is generally the term used where the alloy being used has a melting point above 1100 degC, these would include the familiar Sifbronze alloy often used for copper and brass brazing, where the operational temperatures (of the item being manufactured) would possibly exceed 1000 degC.
As you have also stated, there are several Silver loaded alloys with melting temperatures of up to 1200 - 1500 degC, and these would often be used in situations where the item is required to sustain direct contact with a high temperature flame....such as the spearpoint of a true superheater, which would be in direct contact with the main burner flame.
These are often made using stainless steel and would often be brazed using one of the high temperature silver loaded alloys.
These high melting point alloys, silver loaded or not, are generally referred to as Brazing spelter here in the UK.
From a model boiler point of view, I have not generally found it neccessary to use any of the alloys above the 800 degC melting point, with only one or two exceptions....I often use Sifbronze to fix internal girder stays to the top of a firebox, this is one situation where the higher temperature alloy has great advantage, since it is possible (if boiler operating management is not very carefully applied) for the top of a firebox to be allowed to dry out (water level drops to low) and as this is directly exposed to the fire, it pays to have a higher melting point alloy, just to be on the safe side. It would normally be a requirement to also fit a fusible plug (with a low melting point core) to prevent permanent damage in this case.
The other, has already been mentioned (superheater spearpoint).
For the most part, I find that the 2 most used alloys are Johnson and Matthey's Easyflow 2, which has a melting point of 608 - 617 degC, and
Silverflow 24 with a melting range of 740 - 780 degC.
I would use the higher melting point alloy for first operation/assembly. internal joints (centre flue cross tubes etc), and for the remaining joints would use the Easyflow 2 as a second operation/assembly.
As for a heat source when performing these operations...well, yes you can usually manage with just a propane torch for these alloys, however, I use a combination of a propane torch with a broad flame, which is used for general preheating (copper requires a lot of heat, especially with the larger boilers, or where several layers have to be heated), and Oxy Acetylene for the actual local heat around the individual joints.
I find this gives me more control over local heating and reduces the overall amount of gas being used.
So there we have it....hope this helps clear the muddied waters.
BTW, I don't know where you feel that you have angered me....quite the reverse....so just ask away, or explain things from your country's view point...I am sure we are all interested in the many differences in our common language and it's use.
In answer to your question, do I make boilers as part of a businees....well yes I do...you might like to visit my web site...just click on the bottom of any of my posts on the WWW icon.
:D :D :beer
Now then....our Derek.
:hmmm :shoot :hmph
I don't know about you guy's, but I think DW has been on the WD40 again
:hehe :hehe :oops :nah....or maybe he's found a BEAR SHOP and purchased some pickle....shame I never told him not to drink it. :oops :trophy :angel
Now if you think about where OZ is, in relation to Scotland you will observe that it is approx 180 deg around the globe....now when I made his syphon tube I adjusted for this, and also for the spin of the earth...and added +15 minutes/degree to the jig used to make the blooming thing, so that it came the right way up.....now he has made a new one....this is an OZ version which, in DW's words, goes straight UP and DOWN ( a true syphon tube should be a U-TUBE and should go DOWN then UP. otherwise you would need to fit a vaccuum gauge to bring the readings correct.
:wink: :shhh :thinking :hehe :music
As for the variable thickness copper spacers...well again...these are for awkward persons...what like to alter things and they give the option of making the thing stick out further, or not, depending on the combination of spacers used.......what else would they be for......Loctite just ensures they don't get lost when undoing things.....
Yer just have to laugh.... :great :terrific :vacat :luck :hehe :hehe :music
Have fun and keep smiling.
Best regards to all.
Sandy
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OK - just don't ASK :rant - I have learnt from the lesson on the use of copper washers as to align things [never mind keeping the steam in] :hehe
So as all can see, my ACS boiler VB2 sports a new GLOSS paint job & baked in the oven last evening for 60 minutes
So now :ohno I most seriously need to ask about the 1/4" ID fibre washers.........
1) the outgoing fibre washers were sort of black & soggy
2) the only new ones I can find in OZ are sort of red, dry & hard :shoot
3) are the black & soggy versions unique to Scotland :?: :?:
4) or do I need to soak the replacement fibre washers in fluid prior to installation :?: :?:
5) if the correct answer is 4)..... what sort of fluid :?: .... a little drop of Hunter Valley RED NED would make em soggy & blackish :shock: :shock: in no time at all
This may seem a silly question [considering AF Campbell] suggests many of my taking things apart is :nono .............not warranted
Please note, the reference above to VB2 has nothing to do with Victoria Bitter & the snap of a TOOHEYS NEW next to Decoy was to just to show proportions as we have very few calibrated measuring devices here in OZ :nah
It is fathers day :terrific .... looks like I had better drink the :beer before the the grand kids turn up as they are intent on helping me finish :crash :crash :crash PS Decoy :sob ....... Derek :D
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Hi PDs' - I had a very very minor issue :roll: :oops: with a :?: about a pressure gauge...... but as usual our resident steam GURU came back & said.... this is the fix & :luck ..... well PD's, yes the fix worked as below :bravo & :nah for the advice - Derek
Original message follows :spam :rant :oops :nose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hey Sandy, yes the gauge came apart without issue & I simply stretched the white 'plastic' spacer ring over a taper & reinstalled it all OK
I like your choice of words...... but are you suggesting that I need to get my bends CRACK tested??? - would you suggest mag flow or ultrasonic???
Now back to school... I remember P1 V1 T1 = P2 V2 T2, & sort of understand that a pressure gauge in the tank line will give an indication of pressure, but relative only to the variables - or am I cracked :?: ...............
----- Original Message -----
From: ACS engineering
To: Derek L Warner Pty Ltd
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pressure Gauges
Hi Derek,
Knew I should have specified upside down glue for your gauge......He He....what a .....Humph!!!!
The outer case is a tight push fit over the inner assembly...no need to unscrew anything....try putting an small (wide) flat blade under the rim where it is close to the small square block....a slight twist should start it on it's way....then just ease it all the way off by hand....with a slight wiggling motion to keep it in line with the inner case.....they can be quite tight.
The rubber ring should be glued (loctite or superglue) to the inside off the top cover just under the glass...it acts as a stop and a seal and a glass retainer (all in one).
The 2 rear screws actually hold the entire inner workings in place inside the rear body and if you schoose to have a look, then be very careful....the bourdon tube mechanism is quite delicate.
Your revised (YELLOW ughh! Brass....Ha Ha) siphon tube looks just great, I assume you cracked the bending issue with a proper bender, and Comsol will be just great....a very neat job you have made
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Hi Derek. Hiding behind that very nice model andbottle of "excuse for real beer" I spy what looks like a Washboard, electric guitar and possibly 5 string banjo. You arent one of those relics from the age of skiffle and folk music "like wot I am" are you?. Regards walter.
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Oh No - Sandy another musical relic has emerged from the loooooooooong gone past.......but Walter tis not a washbourne but a roll up washbourne looking CD chest which supports my but my old 68 tele.... I purchased the wooden chest, the tele & the hull of Decoy in a JOB lot of the same wooden tone 38 years ago .... just kidding.........& the bottle of beer was only to give dimensional perspective.......just kidding.........
Â
OK, just thinking of the phraseology...... musical relic or should it be musical wreck??????????????????  just kidding.......Derek
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Snowdon (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:38 AM
Subject: RE: Boilers
Hi Derek. Hiding behind that very nice model andbottle of "excuse for real beer" I spy what looks like a Washboard, electric guitar and possibly 5 string banjo. You arent one of those relics from the age of skiffle and folk music "like wot I am" are you?. Regards walter.
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:twisted: :twisted: :nah :clap
Hi All,
Derek say's
but are you suggesting that I need to get my bends CRACK tested??? - would you suggest mag flow or ultrasonic???
I personaly think a penetrant dye followed by a thorough examination under an electron microscore should be a good starting point....following this with flouroscopy and y-radiation, possibly even neutron radiography....just for good measure an accoustic emission inspection and/or multi phase flow analysis.
Your authorities (the 1/10th scale crew) may well insist on SCC tensile test to ASTM G49 + galvanic corrosion test to ASTM G71....if I were them, I would also insist upon an SCC 4 point test for 180 degree bends to ASTM G-30 U-bends)....but thats just me.... :P :nah :nose :hehe :hehe :music :music
I remember P1 V1 T1 = P2 V2 T2, & sort of understand that a pressure gauge in the tank line will give an indication of pressure, but relative only to the variables
I'm not going to argue wiv the teecchheers, (last time I tried I got detenshun and 400 lines) but ......you cannot use the boiler pressure gauge to tell you how much water is in the boiler....it's the same for gas tanks.....you work it out (hint....in this case V1 or V2 only relate to the free space above the respective liquids)....when you have then let me know how I can get rid of the water gauge...I'm sure everyone else would also like to know......dah! :?: :shock: :? :hmmm :thinking :shoot :spam :oops :terrific
Walter...
Hiding behind that very nice model andbottle of "excuse for real beer" I spy what looks like a Washboard, electric guitar and possibly 5 string banjo. You arent one of those relics from the age of skiffle and folk music "like wot I am" are you?.
Don't let him off the hook Walter, yes he is and I have the e-mail evidence to prove it....mind you...I can't say to much...cos I am one also... :D :D :oops :terrific :offtopic :sorry oh to hell with protocol..... :hehe :hehe ....I like his taste in guitars though.
Ok I'm going to tune up the Gibson and the Fender.
BTW, I agree about the "excuse for real beer" (or in Derek's part of the world BEAR).
Keep happy.
Best regards to all.
Sandy. :sunglasses :respect :vacat :trophy
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Hi PD's - if I didn't :roll: know better, I would have thought that that :hmmm obnoxious Scott [AFCAMPBELL] was trying to take the mickey out of me :D
He quotes....[your authorities (the 1/10th scale crew)]...... when my communication quite clearly notes a 1/25 Scale crew & when I was asking for simple NON Destructive tube bend tests like these.... :hammer & :crash , he ... that same Scott comes back & suggests the level of testing required will necessarily KILL or MELT my humble OZ tube bends just for the sake of his Scottish Science :rant
As a holder of a PhD from the "University of Life" .... I could only prescribe that both Sandy & Walter go out & purchase a new set of 'Fender Light Rock & Roll " guitar strings & enjoy the good :music :hehe :music - Derek :D
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Oh dear - sorry all PD's :respect - I have been taken to task by another :angel who watches over my words..... in that I could not really prove in a court of law that that particular person may or may not have mis interpurated my 1/25 scale crew .....& so relates it back as a 1/10 scale crew...... I am sure both Sandy & Kate understand .... & that Karina is watching over my words :nah :hehe :yeah :beer
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Posted: Mon Sep 2006 Post subject:
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:D :D :twisted: :twisted: :angel
Hi PD's,
Hi PD's - if I didn't know better, I would have thought that that obnoxious Scott [AFCAMPBELL] was trying to take the mickey out of me
He quotes....[your authorities (the 1/10th scale crew)]...... when my communication quite clearly notes a 1/25 Scale crew & when I was asking for simple NON Destructive tube bend tests like these.... & , he ... that same Scott comes back & suggests the level of testing required will necessarily KILL or MELT my humble OZ tube bends just for the sake of his Scottish Science
Ok Derek....just checking to see you were paying attenshuuunn....and you were...sort of!!! :mrgreen: :respect2 :shhh
Naturally if you had been paying 'FULL' attenshun then you would reallizzze that you should deevide tha ASTM numbers by 2.4 to get to the correct test levels.... :hmph :hmmm :nose :thinking :music
BTW...Kate say's that Karina should keep a much closer eye on you from now on.... :hehe :sunglasses :terrific
All the best.
Sandy.
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Hi PD's - I have given some very serious :thinking & spoken with a few :gather colleagues & think there may be some merrit in revising the combined GAZ law type bit of P1 V1 T1= something......... to P1 V1 T1a + T1b= something else
Now the basis for this was not my humble thought, NO..NO..NO but that of that AFC person from Scotland and is as follows......
The new variable [T1b] stands for time which an important unit as I don't have much spare, however we must all need to understand that a water gauge cannot show or express the time as the latter is usually displayed on a dial so hence the revision to my ACS VB2 boiler :hammer - just a few slight modifications & you can see the water glass is gone & replaced with two dual function dials.... one down side up, & one up side down
I cannot wait for steam trials :hehe :music - Derek
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:twisted: :twisted: :gather :nose
Hi Pd's
in this case V1 or V2 only relate to the free space above the respective liquids
Now I think you will all agree that this must now refer to either the WD40 or , as Walter suggests, Excuse for real beer (BEAR).
I think the space above our Derek's has increased by more than a small amount.
I shall have to e-mail Karina :angel to get something done about this condition :music :beer :coffee :coffee :computer
His revisions to the formula are not entirely correct....YET.
Given that P1 V1 T1a = something.
Then T1b = small increment of else, since you have so little of it!!!....not sure what 'it' is, any suggestions guy's.
Hence Sigma T1- Delta T1b = the time on a water gauge.
P1 V1
No need for downside up time/pressure clocks.
However, this does not transfer to GAZ tanks cos they don't have water clocks.
Now our RED Hamish will be totally Bamboozled.
Have fun and keep happy. :twisted: :twisted: :music :hehe :hehe :nah
Sandy.
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Now our RED Hamish will be totally Bamboozled.
Have fun and keep happy. :twisted: :twisted: :music :hehe :hehe :nah
Sandy.
RED will be totally bamboozled? So am I !!!
I know you live on one side of the planet and Derek lives on the other, the only thing I haven't managed to figure out yet is which planet??? :)
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:D :D :D
Nice one Eddy,,,I'm not sure myself most of the time,,,especially having to handle the ozzies...He He :hehe :hehe
It keeps the ball rolling though.
May join in tomorrow on the Chat channel...got it all set up now.
Best regards.
Sandy
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Hi PD's - I am very sorry to say that I think our ASC "Sandy Esquire" may have over looked a few potential scientific break thru's with the addition of T1a & T1b as variables & MILLIONS of $ to the facilitators of this new important timley variable :gather
So Sandy, if the original V1...P1...T1 "boyles & charles" = the combined gas thinge, then this could be gently minced by our modern day computers & we could revise the therom to the "boyles & charles & campbell & warner" LAW
From this I could probably retire in the SW of "frog land" like this :vacat .... & watch PS Decoy just steam away in happiness :hehe :hehe - Derek
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:computer :great :angel
Hi PD's
Please consider the following: -
It is well accepted in scientific circles that the known universe we all, supposedly, live in; is a very constant place in which the natural order of things is non-changeable.
Any attempt to change this order will result in a catastrophic disaster of one sort or another, or even total annihilation.
After a brief discussion :gather with my old mates, ‘Prof. Stephen Hawking’ and (by using a special version of the P1 V1 T1a+T1b formula) his old sidekick Dr. A. Einstein, regarding certain the validity of cerstain formula variables, it has been decided nee agreed, that ‘Australia’, or at least one part of it beginning with Wool…and ending in g, cannot, therefore, be part of this universe since the people there are able to CHANGE the ORDER of things to suit their own ends.
What started out as P1 V1 T1….now suddenly becomes V1 P1 T1, furthermore T1 is also changed to T1a+T1b, in a vain attempt to change the progression of TIME and be able to read it on a water clock, which would, I am sure you will all agree, create chaos in our universe.
A second hint at the ‘not of this universe’ comes in the form of an Irish oz, claiming to wish to retire to SW Frog Land and to watch a half built derelict Paddle steamer go floating by powered by steam, using a FROG for an engine.
Now I know that a certain Mr C. Darwin chose to ignore the altogether strange life forms in the land of oz, since they did not fit in with the Normal evolutionary path observed in the rest of the universe…perhaps he knew something he did not tell us about.
Lets face it guys, when you come face to face with hamsters the size of sheep (called Wombats in that universe) Ducks with 4 legs and fur (platypus) but no wings, and huge mice with springs for back legs and pockets in their fur coats (kangaroos), I suppose it is reasonable to project that the rest of the population could have evolved from amphibians, hence the FROG desire. No wonder Darwin went back to the Galapagos.
Finally, since this whole story began with a need/desire, on the part of this OZZIE IRISH FROG, to measure the content of a GAZ tank….I put it to you that a certain D Warner should just TALK to his boiler, cos all the hot air will be far better than a gas burner at heating it up…and do away with the GAZ thingies, hence saving the UNIVERSE from a fate worse than …..WHO KNOWS?
Yer Just have to larf :D :D
:nah :hehe :hehe
Keep Happy.
Sandy.
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Maaaate,
we've been saying that about the Aussies for years....
best wishes
a Kiwi neighbour
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:computer :great :angel
.................................
After a brief discussion :gather with my old mates, ‘Prof. Stephen Hawking’ and (by using a special version of the P1 V1 T1a+T1b formula) his old sidekick Dr. A. Einstein, regarding certain the validity of cerstain formula variables, it has been decided nee agreed, that ‘Australia’, or at least one part of it beginning with Wool…and ending in g, cannot, therefore, be part of this universe since the people there are able to CHANGE the ORDER of things to suit their own ends.
What started out as P1 V1 T1….now suddenly becomes V1 P1 T1, furthermore T1 is also changed to T1a+T1b, in a vain attempt to change the progression of TIME and be able to read it on a water clock, which would, I am sure you will all agree, create chaos in our universe.
A second hint at the ‘not of this universe’ comes in the form of an Irish oz, claiming to wish to retire to SW Frog Land and to watch a half built derelict Paddle steamer go floating by powered by steam, using a FROG for an engine.
Now I know that a certain Mr C. Darwin chose to ignore the altogether strange life forms in the land of oz, since they did not fit in with the Normal evolutionary path observed in the rest of the universe…perhaps he knew something he did not tell us about.
Lets face it guys, when you come face to face with hamsters the size of sheep (called Wombats in that universe) Ducks with 4 legs and fur (platypus) but no wings, and huge mice with springs for back legs and pockets in their fur coats (kangaroos), I suppose it is reasonable to project that the rest of the population could have evolved from amphibians, hence the FROG desire. No wonder Darwin went back to the Galapagos.
Finally, since this whole story began with a need/desire, on the part of this OZZIE IRISH FROG, to measure the content of a GAZ tank….I put it to you that a certain D Warner should just TALK to his boiler, cos all the hot air will be far better than a gas burner at heating it up…and do away with the GAZ thingies, hence saving the UNIVERSE from a fate worse than …..WHO KNOWS?
Yer Just have to larf :D :D
:nah :hehe :hehe
Keep Happy.
Sandy.
Hi All,
I am more confused :? then normal :shhh , first "What started out as P1 V1 T1….now suddenly becomes V1 P1 T1, " I remember :thinking the General Gas Law as P1 V1/T1 = P2 V2/T2. :crash
When I want to check how much fuel I have left I look at the fire ( if its still there I still have fuel) :terrific , if I want to know if I have enough for the next run I unscrew the tank and give it a shake, if I hear/feel fluid I am usually good for a run. :yeah If I want to get real technical :hehe :hehe :hehe I weigh the tank.
I think maybe your all in an alternate universe :beer .
Regards,
Gerald :sunglasses
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OK PD's - I know when to shut up & with [Sandy, Gerald, Jim & now Tony] suggesting :offtopic , I shall say no more [for a while] about volumes & pressure of the GAZ contained therein........etc
But as a semi final snap I thought I would share with you my trail tube set ups between various tanks & the respective interconection & gauges...... :hehe :hehe - Derek
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Hello all, Derek - :?: :?: You know you you can confuse me very easily :shock: I see no waymarked path on here for the trail :?: and BTW if you do decide to trial this set up! I sure am glad that we are on opposite sides of the globe 8) Looks good but is it efficient?
The theory I work on is that any combustion works more efficiently if the external air temperature is a lot lower than your current ambient temperature. This is why steam power was invented/improved up here in Scotland :D the added benefit to the engineer and any person present was the welcome additional warmth in a relatively confined space. To hell with any associated dangers as long as your warm :twisted:
cheers for now
Jim
p.s one of my colleagues is winging her way over to Aus for a month long holiday. Look after her well we need her back :D
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:D :D :D :news
Hi PD's
Red_hamish says...
The theory I work on is that any combustion works more efficiently if the external air temperature is a lot lower than your current ambient temperature. This is why steam power was invented/improved up here in Scotland
Not strictly true Jim...I agree that in an INFERNAL combustion engine this is very much the case, since cold air is far more dense, hence higher oxygen content per cu/ft, however, with a steam plant there is a great advantage in pre-heating the burner combustion air which would otherwise have to be heated by the burner/fire, thus reducing the amount available for heating the water.....more on this in a later espisode of the steam saga (part 9,999.9 probably).
And the reason the steam engine was invented/developed/improved here in Bonnie Scotland was mainly due to the SASSENACH's not knowing how to do it. :nose :sob :music :hehe :hehe
Derek......I hope the pressure gauge shown attached to your condenser top outlet is only for the picture?.....if not, then you are heading for BIG TROUBLE....it ain't a pressure vessel...Otherwise it all looks pretty good so far.
As for Part 3 of the steam Saga...well I am still working on it little by little...got sidetracked somewhat by out of universe conversations with an Irish GAZ frog :hehe :hehe
Sorry guys...I knew it was getting well :offtopic . it's hard to resist sometimes.
Gerald.....I'm with you mate on how to check the level....but you know what these Ozzies are like.
Tony... :no1 :thinking ... so If you've known about this oz problem all this time, why have you not said or done something to protect the rest of us poor guys?
:twisted: :twisted: :D :music :hehe :hehe :towel
Finally guys...for those who were involved with last nights CHAT, many thanks for the welcome I enjoyed the time, albeit a little shorter than I would have liked....
Until the next time. :respect :computer :great :beer
Sandy.
Best Regards.
:respect
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OK OK PD's :mrgreen: - two serious questions I promise :oops: .........Sandy......
Question 1) with the gas jet orifice being VERY VERY small, how many full 360 degree turns are required on the 90 degree gas isolation valve hand wheel as attached to my Refillable Gas Tank Serial Number 473 to open it to an optimal position :?:
On my [the boiler I mean] previous steaming trials I remember say three full turns open & + or - 1/2 a turn did not appear to have any effect on the audible function [the telementry of air draw is difficult to determine or measure] of the burner....[ :rant ..as naturally no GAZ pressure gauges were installed]
The gas isolation valve has a VERY VERY fine spindle thread [TPI], however if you keep the anticlockwise motion going the spindle dis-engages from the gland - is this normal :?: as there is no spindle dis-engagement locking device evident - so when one reads this carefully one must concede it is not a silly question :nono
Question 2) my GBV180-18 Globe Valve of 23/8/2006 - you have indicated in a previous OFF line communication re the BLACK DOT being for the inlet side....... but :oops as soon as I opened the :gift parcel I polished the valve with BRASSO & the DOT is no longer to be seen
So being a globe valve, I assume the clockwise rotational moment [when looking down on the spindle] will seat & seal or stop flow from underneath
If this is the case, please confirm how to determine this....
Please do not suggest that I air [FRIGHT :ohno] it back to Scotland just so you can put a TEXTA black dot somewhere & ship it back :hammer as fright =shock as I think she would get cold back in that Scoooootl....d place
So again when one reads this second :?: carefully one must concede it is not a silly question :nono
As a final note I may just go out to the garden to see if I can find a few GREEN jumping things to cook for lunch W garlic -........& I'll drown them [or me] with a :beer or two - :great
Appears that Sandy has spoken with Karina [re my :darn health], as I am now under STRICT instructions not to post any :offtopic stuff - Derek
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Hi PD's & thanks Jim_Hamish for your concern re my health & the health of my boiler room :boom ....so now that makes three....
Firstly it was Karina the :angel , then Sandy asking if I had been taking my medication :oops & now you.... how caring :twisted: :evil: :oops: - Derek :beer
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:D :D :twisted: :twisted: :hmmm :hmph
Hi PD's
Derek asks: -
Question 1) with the gas jet orifice being VERY VERY small, how many full 360 degree turns are required on the 90 degree gas isolation valve hand wheel as attached to my Refillable Gas Tank Serial Number 473 to open it to an optimal position
On my [the boiler I mean] previous steaming trials I remember say three full turns open & + or - 1/2 a turn did not appear to have any effect on the audible function [the telementry of air draw is difficult to determine or measure] of the burner....[ ..as naturally no GAZ pressure gauges were installed]
Well now, this is an absolute case of the (forbidden subject, namely…P1 V1 T1 =)
However, I am sure Eddy and the PD Rottweilers :respect :respect2 (good name for a band though?) won’t object on this occasion…he says hopefully!!!!! :angel
As you say Derek, the jet has a tiny hole in it (in your case a number 8-size jet with a 0.25mm hole (0.0099â€) and the amount of gas that can be pushed through this is determined by the applied pressure, which in turn is effected by temperature.
So the answer to your question “what is the correct number of turns the gas valve has to be opened?†is….it depends upon the temperature and the size of flame you require.
For your burner, I would say that between ¾ and 1 ½ turns open would be about right depending on the gas tank temperature on the day so to speak.
In general it pays to set up the burner and gas tank out/away from the boiler (in a safe place) and do some tests.
Open the gas valve slowly and light the burner, then turn up the gas until the flame gets to a maximum size, adjusting the jet position for optimum if/as required. The flame should consist of several small cones (one from each hole in the ceramic) each with a whitish centre and a bluish outer, and they should all be in contact with the ceramic at their base. The combined flame size should be around 1 – 1 ½†long with as little orange content as possible.
This test will determine the maximum number of turns you need to open the valve to achieve maximum gas flow, after which no amount of opening will affect the size of the flame.
The only thing that will affect the flame size in this condition (other than closing the valve, or running out of gas) will be the gas pressure/temperature.
If it (the gas) warms up (not likely unless externally heated) then the gas pressure, and hence the flow would increase proportionately, Conversely, should the gas pressure/temperature drop (more likely, due to draw off rate) then the flame will get smaller…However, opening the valve in this state will not increase the flame size, since the pressure has dropped and the maximum possible flow through the jet, for the reduced pressure, will also drop.
One could argue that fitting a larger jet would help since this could pass more gas for a given pressure/temperature; however, this is not necessarily going to work and may well be totally the wrong thing for the burner design.
If you consider this….a large gas jet will pass more gas (true), however, if the burner cannot use all this gas then it would need to be reduced (by closing the gas valve)..Again, true.
Also, the flame would almost certainly rise above the surface of the ceramic (due to the higher pressure) and would not then heat the ceramic, thus loosing the radiant heating ability for which the ceramic material and the burner were designed.
Another problem could also become an issue… by reducing the gas flow through the larger jet (by closing the gas valve) you would also reduce the gas flow velocity and this will affect the gas air mixing (which uses the venturi effect to draw in air) via the holes in the side of the gas jet carrier tube.
As a result it is possible (more than likely) that the amount of air mixed with the gas, in the mixing tube, would be insufficient for proper combustion, as a result, when the burner was placed into the boiler flue, the missing air volume required for correct burning would be drawn in via the auxiliary air holes (over and above that needed for normal flue balancing) which would in turn lead to a reduction in flame temperature.
So the burner in this state would be of little use.
The bottom line here is….your burner/gas jet have been designed to give optimum operation over a reasonable temperature gradient (average ambient conditions) and the valve openings given above are based on this.
The optimum settings, needed for any given installation, can only be determined by trial tests.
Hope this is of some help to you all.
Derek's 2nd question: -
Question 2) my GBV180-18 Globe Valve of 23/8/2006 - you have indicated in a previous OFF line communication re the BLACK DOT being for the inlet side....... but as soon as I opened the parcel I polished the valve with BRASSO & the DOT is no longer to be seen
So being a globe valve, I assume the clockwise rotational moment [when looking down on the spindle] will seat & seal or stop flow from underneath
If this is the case, please confirm how to determine this....
[/quote]
Don't know why I bother painting things really :great :nose :hehe :hehe
I think I will have to instruct Karina to confiscate his brasso as well.
I attach a PDF with a cross section of the valve this should help you identify which end is which...also included are some more BLACK DOTS in various sizes...how you fit these is your problem...NO DONT ASK KARINA the :angel of OZ...she has my greatest respect since she is a fellow DIRE STRAITS fan. And it is a Washbourne DOBRO...great instrument.
Sorry PD's got a bit sidetracked there for a moment.
Finally Derek...the issue you appear to have with your particular gas tank valve spindle unscrewing all the way out is a production issue with BIX engineering.
I noticed this myself a few weeks ago and contacted BIX about it and also pointed out to them that, under British (and I believe now EU law) it is illegal under the gas regulations to manufacture such a valve.
They looked in to this and agreed with my findings and have now changed the design to a captive spindle.
All my current stock of gas tanks are fitted with the new design, so, if you feel that this may present you with a legality problem in OZ then I respectfully ask that you take this up with BIX directly. I will most certainly advise them that the purchase was made through me if necessary.
:respect
Ok Guys, I think that will do for this post.
Keep happy. :vacat :sunglasses :terrific :angel :beer
Best regards
Sandy.
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Hello all, Sandy, well versed sir. A very informative and decipherable post. The annoying thing is you've really gone and whet my appetite for a live steam powered paddler. Now just to save up for one, that may be a long time in coming though.
All the best
Jim
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I agree Jim, we need to convince Sandy to add a nice twin cylinder diagonal paddler engine to his range of engines - Something all of us aspiring steam types can use to build the ultimate paddler!
As some of you know, I'd like to build the Glen Sannox at 1:48 scale, which would give a model 67" (approx) long, so I need something suitable to power it with. I haven't managed to find anything commercially available, so when I start (probably next year) it's almost certainly going to end up with electric power which would be a shame :(
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Hi PD's & I do thank you all for understanding that I was not JOKING :evil: :twisted:
HOWEVER.... the real question is... considering that I have a GAZ regulator installed.... courtesy of Anton, do the 252.5 lines of recommended boiler gas flame :boom setting procedure really apply :?:
I would have thought that the simple ....[P & T relationship] would have applied, in that via the regulator T1 would attempt & transend an increase [in flame or heat] until P2 [desired that is ] was achieved :?: :?: :?: :arrow:
So Gerald it may be fine to do a John Lennon [& shake it up baby] with the tank I mean :music .... but I am still convinced :ohno there must be a method of monitoring the GAZ content of the tank - Derek :D :hehe
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OK - :oops sorry all.... my supervising mechanical engineer in charge [Karina] has just read my last post & suggested it's a 'lode' of CODS WALLOP..... in that the regulator is only an ADJUNCT :?: :?: :?: which is necessarily controlled by others :sorry - I thought a regulator regulated....Derek
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Hello all, Derel :idea: Surely iusing a fishermans sring balance weighing device you'd get an instant fauge of just howm much gas you've (not personlly you) used during your (boat/sail) excursion. Possibly this is far too easy an option and not anywhere near scientific enough for some industrially minded souls , it'd do me fine though 8)
cheers
Jim :D
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Hi Sandy,
On the Scott boiler what would you consider the minimum spacing between tubes? I was thinking of 5/8" spacing between centres, which would give me 1/16" space between tubes on the bottom. Also are you going to post details on a burner?
Regards,
Gerald
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:D :D :gather :terrific
Hi PD's,
First off...Well done, and thanks to Eddy :no1 :respect :respect2 for the stirling work he has performed moving things to the new server in so short a space of time...you must be sick of that PC by now...I am sure we will all reao the benefits over the coming months/years.
Gerald......I am pleased to see that you are contemplating having a go at a 'Scott' I would keep 1/16" as a minimum clearance, 3/32" would possibly be just a shade better.
I used 5/8" spacing on the one shown in the photos posted a few posts back, however, this used 6mm OD water tubes rather than 1/4"... so perhaps opening up to 11/16" spacing would be appropriate.
As for a suitable burner...well, I will be doing a piece on ceramic burners some ways down the line as part of the STEAM SAGA series and will include a typical 6" x 2" one as used for this boiler...if you are in need of one prior to this then I can supply one, but give me a line via PM or direct e-mail.
Hope this is of help. :respect :no1
Regards to all
Sandy. :D :D :D
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Hi PD's - & thanks to ACS Engineering, my new GAZ isolation valve :gift arrived this morning [beaut design Sandy] I think orders will come fast & thick .... so here is a little :kewl of the new brass shiney bit with the rest.... rumor is that PS Decoy will have more valves & dials than a V8 Supercar :lol: when Fabrice posts my new GAZ gauge that is :twisted:
One little question Sandy...... is the design length of my replacement 3X5 diameter pure Scottish leaded crystal water tubes were ment to be 73 mm long :?: .... if so why are the new one's 153.222' mm long :?:
Oh & BTW, when you mentioned to Eddy ....."not to go over to the dark side"...... did you mean across the water from Dover to Calis :?: don't go there Eddy........ :offtopic .... Derek
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:D :D :D :D
Hi PD's,
Derek....I am pleased your new items arrived ok and that you are happy with the new valve....A one off specially for PS Decoy.....as for water gauge glass....well.. :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :evil: I thought you could get some practice in cutting glass, intead of BRASS tube.. :twisted: :twisted: .
One thing is for sure...you have now got enough to have 4 goes at getting it right... :hehe :hehe :music :nose
Truth is, this is the standard length they come in, and since there are minor length differences between individual boilers (+/- 1mm) I thought it best to send the full lengths over so you could (hopefully) get it correct for your particular unit.
It is easy to cut...just make a deep scribe/score mark all round the glass at the point you need to break it at (use the edge of a 3 square jewellers file and allow a little for cleaning up the ends), hold the tube in a piece of cloth, close up to the mark on either side, and apply, sideways, bending pressure, all that remains is to carefully clean up, and square, the ends using a small oil stone. JOB DONE. :twisted: :D :wink:
:hmph :nah :shhh :oops ...I don't know...these Ozzies, yer just have to hold their hands every step of the way.... :shhh :music :music :hehe :hehe
Keep happy.
Regards to all.
Sandy :sunglasses :computer :angel :beer :vacat
PS...as for our Eddy and the ddddaark Side.....just attempting to keep him on the straight and narrow....all this talk of ELEKTRICKERY type motors indeed. :hmmm :hmph ...I look forward to getting the details Eddy.
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OK, OK.... & Hi PD's :hehe , my Irish fore BEARS suggested to break a glass top [beer bottle, VAIL, VIAL or VILE] , just get the finest Egyptian silk thread, soak it in a 50/50 fluid of Lithium paste & Johnny Walker [Black Lable], heat jently for 20 minutes then :boom
I think I will get my computer :computer ISED ruler out afterwards >>>>
Like... if you were the proud owner :shoot of a Vauxhall Cresta, & asked the manufacturer for a spare tyre.... would you be happy with a :hmph :hmmm :rant 25 foot diameter new tyre being supplied & the supplier says.... :hehe ..... just get a KNIFE & WHITTLE it down to suit :?:
Not happy Jan :music :nah :bow - Derek
Oh & BTW... as you & Jim will know that set of lyrics & :music ""come be me dina hand"" was by Lennon.... I think
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OK PD's ..........a quote from my boiler builder>>>
just make a deep scribe/score mark all round the glass at the point you need to break it at - use the edge of a 3 square jewellers file
So OK PD's, not to be out done, I venture to the hardware shop & ask for a 3 pointed square file & the kind young lady :roll: her eyes & says they are only available in Scotland, but the Australian equivalent is on special this week :news >>>> so I purchase one of these IMPLIMENTS, which turns out to be a KIWI brand butchers "knife"
So :thinking all this would be OK, purchased the said :?: :?: :?: & attempted the leaded crystal water gauge tube reduction, but had to CUT short the preceeeeedings to attend the Wollongong Hospital & have 27 sticthes inserted :crash in a delicate part :oops
So tomorrow is another day & I shall HOBBLE :ohno :hehe :music to a glass foundry to ask if they can remelt my Scottish bits of :crash broken leaded crystal into a new 5mm OD X 3mm ID X 3" new tube bit
Always good for a laugh PD's :hehe ....... Derek
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:beer :trophy :nose :shoot :shoot
Hi PD's,
soak it in a 50/50 fluid of Lithium paste & Johnny Walker [Black Lable], heat jently for 20 minutes then
OK guys, here we have written proofe (pun intended) that the ozzies have not yet progressed beyond the COOKING grade whisky, so I think I will postpone my planned trip over to cut DEREKS glass for him. I would die of thirst.... :beer :oops :angel :hehe :hehe :music
owner of a Vauxhall Cresta, & asked the manufacturer for a spare tyre.... would you be happy with a 25 foot diameter new tyre being supplied & the supplier says.... ..... just get a KNIFE & WHITTLE it down to suit
I most certainly would not be happy...I would be demanding that the other 3 25 ft tyres and the Monster truck which joined them all together was provided...that way I could do a really good job on the CRESTA.... :trophy :yeah
just make a deep scribe/score mark all round the glass at the point you need to break it at - use the edge of a 3 square jewellers file
So OK PD's, not to be out done, I venture to the hardware shop & ask for a 3 pointed square file & the kind young lady her eyes & says they are only available in Scotland, but the Australian equivalent
Well what can you say...everybody knows that a 3 square file is a triangle that does not have a square side on it....but I suppose this has not got through to the OZZIES yet.....These are available in different shapes (usually packs of 5 or even 6) and are also known as swiss files...NO DEREK...THAT is not the same as a SWISS ARMY KNIFE......I am more inclined to think/believe that the results pictured are more attributable to the COOKING whisky than lack of the correct tool. :music :hehe :hehe :angel , What say you guy's??
Another way of cutting gauge glass is to use a cut-off disc in a Dremel, or similar modelling tool..... :thinking :oops :hammer ...I know, they haven't heard of these over there yet either... :terrific :hehe :hehe :nose
The way I do it is to mark the length required with a fine pointed marking pen, then I apply the glass to the sharp corner on my very fine bench grinder stone, a little above the mark, and rotate it, this cuts the glass off ...I then dress down to the mark on the face of the wheel, rotating all the time...and finally lap both ends on a hand held diamond lapping tool, which is also used to lap my tungston lathe tools.....But I suppose it will be the 26th century before they even hear about these in OZ...let alone get them..
The words of a great man spring to mind, and I am sure he would not mind a slight modification to suit......ABRAHAM LINCOLN..
You can help some people MOST of the time.
Most people accept help SOME of the time.
But you can't help all the people all of the time.
and SOME, or should that be MOST Ozzies are just beyond help.
:great :computer :no1 :bravo :terrific
Keep smilling.
Regards to all.
Sandy. :sunglasses :vacat :beer :angel
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I know this is off topic,but sandy Im so sorry I have not goten back to you about photos of the B.of L. but due to family probs I havent got to ride on her yet,but I tell ya what,I might send ya some good ol kentucky bourbon,or some jessamine county wine?(were the first vineyard co. in the usa was born and were I live)but what do I know about that stuf I ant even old enough to drive let alone drink! :lol:
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Hi PD's & it's PAYBACK time - some months back I was :gather with a person who needed 12" ID X 1/8" section nitrile O-ring.... so :thinking I asked "is this for a :beer fermenter lid" :?: [which seemed a worthwhile cause.... I thought]
But the response was no, it is a drive pulley for a diamond lapping wheel for glass objects :!: :!: :!: :!:
So bingo :great :D the 'penny' dropped this morning & took my two only 3 mm ID X 5 mm OD finest grade Scottish leaded crystal tubes & the payback is Lead Light manufacture will diamond lap one each tube end, cut & relap the opposite with a final length of 75 mm +/- 0.25 mm :yeah
Oh yes & BTW, :sorry I must admit the broken glass bits :crash on the foredeck were just a mock up :hehe - just goes to show how perceptive some :hmmm people are when they can recognise the difference between a 5 OD glass shell & a 65 OD glass shell from 20,000 miles away :idea: :D....... Derek
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Hello all. What is all the fuss about all this cut leaded Scottish glass :?:
You'll have seen it all before but the only way to consider a Scottish cut crystal is with a decent hint of content
cheers
Jim
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Hi PD's - last evening, we completed the "Boiler Steaming Trials" after the refit & new boiler paint job & replacement of the Scottish leaded crystal water gauge glass :nah :music :hehe & managed two refils X 0.5 litre each which was great :trophy
& :respect2 we had ZERO steam leakage :hehe
Karina asks " why do you spend sooooo much time with Decoy :?: " - I say "just trying to gauge things" :twisted: :D ...... :hehe Derek
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Hi Derek,
Â
That looks like a bunch of fun... How much do the boilers etc.. cost for a model paddle steamer??
Â
Regards,
James
----- Original Message -----
From: derekwarner_decoy (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 3:10 PM
Subject: RE: Boilers
Hi PD's - last evening, we completed the "Boiler Steaming Trials" after the refit & new boiler paint job & replacement of the Scottish leaded crystal water gauge glass (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/nahnah.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/music_whistling.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/hehe.gif) & managed two refils X 0.5 litre each which was great (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/tropthy.gif)
& (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/respect4.gif) we had ZERO steam leakage (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/hehe.gif)
Karina asks " why do you spend sooooo much time with Decoy (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_question.gif) " - I say "just trying to gauge things" (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif) (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) ...... (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/hehe.gif) Derek
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http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9004#9004 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9004#9004)
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Hi PD's - & welcome to our paddler site James - nothing is inexpensive in the world of model steam, but you can invest after careful consideration
Try our PD links page & VERY
carefully note the costs & the "additional costs" or "EXTRAS" that some suppliers offer in their price listings
Over the past year I have purchased steam components to approx AUD$2.8K from three European suppliers with differing levels of happiness from say [2 out of 10 :cry: ] to [12 out of 10 :D ] :!: [/b][/i][/color]
If you are serious about steam, spend a few hours reading the postings in PDs = Live Steam - naturally if you have any :?: question>>>> just post it & from around the world, someone will offer constructive :idea: comment
- Derek
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Thanks Derek,
Â
I will be sitting down and reading the Live Steam section and probably posting a few questions, but thanks again!!!
Â
Regards,
James McDougall
----- Original Message -----
From: derekwarner_decoy (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
To: livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk (livesteam@paddleducks.co.uk)
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:24 PM
Subject: RE: Boilers
Hi PD's - & welcome to our paddler site James - nothing is inexpensive in the world of model steam, but you can invest after careful consideration
Try our PD links page & VERY
carefully note the costs & the "additional costs" or "EXTRAS" that some suppliers offer in their price listings
Over the past year I have purchased steam components to approx AUD$2.8K from three European suppliers with differing levels of happiness from say [2 out of 10 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif) ] to [12 out of 10 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) ] (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_exclaim.gif)
If you are serious about steam, spend a few hours reading the postings in PDs = Live Steam - naturally if you have any (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_question.gif) question>>>> just post it & from around the world, someone will offer constructive (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/images/smiles/icon_idea.gif) comment
- Derek
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http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9016#9016 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9016#9016)
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