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Author Topic: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght  (Read 2755 times)

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2022, 11:07:44 AM »
Indeed Thomas...again, an intriguing boiler  :whistle :whistle....

1. does the burner flame on external test produce a flame of sufficient length to near match the length of the most distant water tube?
2. what is the purpose of the round spigots with a hole over the top of what would be a smoke box?
3. is the chimney tube aluminium of just painted with a gray primer....the chimney tube in itself with the rivited tubular segments a work of art
4. are you using those 220gm disposable gas containers? [good economic value/heat], or the larger 300 gm cab we see for the external test?.....I don't see lines in the deck to remove so to replace the gas tank?

I look forward to the engine build [will it be a long stroke single cylinder as per that old Drawing?] & installation to this loooooooooooooooong vessel  :shhh

Derek
« Last Edit: April 11, 2022, 11:22:08 AM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Hankwilliams

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2022, 09:36:50 PM »
Hi Derek,

interesting and profound questions. There are still problems with this boilers, at time I`m make experiments with different burners. The common smokebox of both flame tubes seems a little bit problematic. Only with one flame there isn`t a problem, but as soon as two flames in both tubes arise a dynamic pressure of the hot gases with hinders one flame.
Therefore I drilled some holes on the top of the smokebox to reduce the problem, now it seems, that it is nearly solved. The original boat has had only one funnel, for the model it would be more easy, each boiler with his own chimney. The chimney is an aluminium tube with glued thin sheets (0,2 mm) of alu - from the backside the deepenings of the rivets were made with nails. The chimney was painted with black heat resistence color.
Because hull is very flat (60 mm), so space of gas container is restricted. I made the gas container refillable,  220 gm gas should be enough. All deck parts of the boiler/engine space are removable.

My favorite engine is the Regner 12/36, but not as single cylinder. The engine will need a profound alteration. Because of space limitation it`s not possible to place the cylinders side by side - the cylinders must be one upon another, this will get two crankshafts connected with cogwheels at 90 degrees. The original boat has had a single cylinder engine after French Bourdon system with cylinder and crankshaft on deck level, I will try to make this similar. You see, Derek, this boat with boilers and engine will be a challenge - I hope I will have success!

Many regards Thomas

Offline Hankwilliams

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2022, 10:06:14 PM »
Arrangement with gas cartridge, gas regulation, steam manometer, boilers, collapsible funnel and gas/steam regulation in the hull. The former one way gas container was made refillable with a special valve which also will be the connection to the gas burners.

Thomas

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2022, 03:15:31 AM »
I have no experience here Thomas with this style of dual boiler design, except the consideration of a dual balanced exhaust from the smoke box forming a large A into the chimney pipe from each of the holes you have pre drilled into those spigot fittings [similar to model train engine cylinder exhausts into the smoke box in a balanced setup]

Having said this I understand you would be deviating from the Plan at this A would exit above Deck level

With respect to the engine.....again I cannot see any real solution without deviating from the Plan scale appearance, as there appears to ve very little space between the hull and the bottom of the engine and the same height restrictions between under the deck & the top of the engine

As you well know, even producing a larger single cylinder bore & stroke engine, the starting or timing requirements would be problematical.....unless you could produce a servo operated barring device to set the engine in a starting position?

I believe barring gear could certainly be achieved for a model steam engine, the only limitation I see is the time/speed requirement that the cycle is required, then by proximity device, a signal back to the Tx to allow an engine re-start

[The French manufacturer ANTON some years back produced a range of CNC manufactured TYPHOON engines {black & Gold}.... included was a single cylinder engine capable of starting from any position of rest...however the range did not stay on the market for very long...[I suspect they were manufactured by a third CNC party?]

You previously mention this vessel has a beam of ~~150 mm? [6"], so what is the minimum configuration width that you could squeeze a close-coupled pair of 12x36 Regner engines into?  [eliminating the center flywheel and modified steam entry ports to 90 degrees above the valve chest]

This Bloke appears to have achieved vertical inlet ports, and that center coupling could be shortened by 10 mm or more?

Derek
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 04:42:05 AM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Hankwilliams

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2022, 08:47:22 AM »
Yes Derek, I would try to explaine my idea of the engine with cylinders one upon the other. It`s a matter of much as possible can we build close to the original boat. Even the twin boilers you find in the original plan. Of course, it`s not rich in meaning to reduce boiler and engine in line, but ideal there should be an optical impression of close to the original as possible, but even with reliable funktion.
I`ve build two paddlers (Courier and Mount Washington) with single cylinder engines like in the original, even with electric starters. Nevertheless the starting procedure isn`t very reliable, because of the low touring and centrifugal force. When the engine goes slow, you must pay most attention of no stop in dead center. I want to avoide this at the new model.

When I will be succesful to build this twin cylinder engine like my description, the first impression would be " Oh, a single cylinder engine..." because of the visible upper cylinder unit. It`s a compromise, of course - but for me it`s essential, that the optical impression would be close to the original as possible.

When I wrote this down, the clock shows half past twelve in night - exactly 69 years ago I was born in Frankfurt - a rather long live of a model craftsman and I hope, that there will be some 20 more years...

Thomas

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2022, 12:05:47 PM »
Well firstly,  :birth Youngster  :whistle

I have loved each & very one of your builds, and as a fellow Member, it is Paddleduck Group are the ones who have had this privilege over the years

The number of paddlewheel vessels with your built threads and   :kewlpics  [especially in steam] is amazing 

I have always found t interesting to consider potential solutions to questions posed

Looking forward to your progress

Derek




 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 12:28:07 PM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Steven S

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2022, 10:40:10 PM »
Happy birthday from me in Canada Thomas.  I'm a bit older than you and am also hoping for a few more years of happy modeling.  Enjoy the day.

Steve

Offline Hankwilliams

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2022, 05:34:52 PM »
Derek and Steven - thank you very much for your good wishes. Hope, we all will have some further good years for modeling and of course for other nice things in life.

Thomas

Offline Paddlemex

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2022, 04:31:29 AM »
Only read your post today, so even if it's late I wish you have had a Happy Birthday.
Many more paddelers to come.

All the best, Jurgen

Offline Hankwilliams

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2022, 06:38:50 PM »
Boiler trouble.
As I wrote some weeks ago, the common smokebox of the twin boilers caused some difficulties. Now I had finished boiler and gas installation - but the dynamic pressure when two burners are lit, is enourmous. If only one flame is lit, all is ok. But the second flame is flickering with tendency to go out.

I will change the whole boiler unit like the boilers of USS "Choctaw" with only one burner. The end of flame tube at rear side will connected with the tube of the other boiler, so the exhaust will be beside burner. This arrangement has had a good function at Choctaw boilers and I suppose the trouble will came to an end.

Offline derekwarner_decoy

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2022, 04:58:05 PM »
This sounds a good solution Thomas.......

I am sure you will have the required insulation :crash to the U to the fire tube exit in the fired tube, to the inlet which will be the residual heat transferred the fire tube in the No 2 boiler unfired boiler, & hence through the fire tube to the chimney, then to atmosphere :great

Will you need another water pass connection [at mid shell height] between both boiler shells?, and the steam well only on No 1 boiler shell"

Derek
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 05:21:06 PM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Paddlemex

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2022, 03:24:54 AM »
Hello Thomas,

Have you considered to change the smoke BOX to 2 individual exits that turn upward and join into a Y just below the funnel hinge?
The square smoke box probably causes incontrollable bouncing shockwaves from the hot gases trying to find the exit to the funnel.
For the Y consider to have a larger diameter for the end pipe than the diameters of the 2 incoming pipes.

On the other hand your solution with just one burner and U-turn for the hot gases will for sure be more efficient.

Regards Jurgen


Offline Hankwilliams

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2022, 02:48:44 AM »
Hi Derek and Jurgen.

the problem seems solved. The boiler was turned by 180, the rear flame tubes are connected now with rectangular copper tubes. Today I lit the burner, all was tight and after 10 min first steam pressure came up. Before I made some tests with different burners, this very old Regner one was the best. Also the old LASPE gas/steam regulation was ok. It`s still possible to insolate the short tube connection of the two flame tubes, but I presume, the effect will not be great.
The now refillable cartridge only some cm lies beside the burner, the heat is strong enough to compensate the evaporation coldness. The gas contentment was good for one hour.

The engine: It will be difficult to use two Regner 12/36 one upon another by reasons of space and may be nautic stability. I just will make a test of nautic stability of the boat - test tank isn`t possible, the model is much too long. But a improvisation with a flat wooden trough and foil of plastic will do it also.

Thomas

Offline Hankwilliams

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Re: Beginnig a new construction - Rhone paddler "OCEAN with 322 cm lenght
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2022, 08:26:33 PM »
Launching the "OCEAN"

with the slightly extended building board, lateral borders and foil of plastic a trough with 3,5 m lenght was made.

First launch today - models weight with boilers and steam installation, but without engine is exactly 7150 g. I was on edge about the nautic stability with this very long and narrow hull. What should I tell? Stability was excellent, draft only 1,5 to 2 cm, at stern more than at bow. As you see, even with 2 kg chamotte plate on deck stability was no more worse. The models deplacement should be about 10 kg for sufficient draft of the paddle wheels.

Now the question for a suitable engine arises - as I wrote, there should be an 2 cylinder slide valve. But it will be difficult to use the Regner 12/36. The good and worth the money Graham TVRIA engines are still no more avaiable. I saw the British Chiltern Model Steam webside, the engines seems good and not too expensive. Perhaps there are some experiences with this engines?

Thomas

Offline Hankwilliams

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I just want to finish the "OCEAN" with steam engine - but in moment some problems are actual. I hope, in near future I will glad to post some actual advance and of course some pictures of trip on a lake.

Thomas

 

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